Resolution S2 VS 20D (in case you are interested)

[Sean Keegan]

For those that are interested here is a comparison I made between the S2 and the 20D from the charts from DPReview, and Imaging Resource. I know res charts don't tell the whole story, but they do tell some of the story as far as resolution goes. First is the 20D chart from DPreview, and second is from Imaging Resource.



Looks pretty much equal to the S2 as far as resolution goes.

Regards,
Sean

 

[John Pham]

For those that are interested here is a comparison I made between
the S2 and the 20D from the charts from DPReview, and Imaging
Resource. I know res charts don't tell the whole story, but they do
tell some of the story as far as resolution goes. First is the 20D
chart from DPreview, and second is from Imaging Resource.

uh - would be nicer if we can see both chart simultaneously rather
flashing back and forth

 

[Sean Keegan]

Personally I think it is much easier to see the difference when they are flashing back and forth. You can look at them yourself in Phil's review if you want to look at them side by side. But things are much more telling when they are overlayed in my opinion....

Regards,
Sean

For those that are interested here is a comparison I made between
the S2 and the 20D from the charts from DPReview, and Imaging
Resource. I know res charts don't tell the whole story, but they do
tell some of the story as far as resolution goes. First is the 20D
chart from DPreview, and second is from Imaging Resource.

uh - would be nicer if we can see both chart simultaneously rather
flashing back and forth

 

[jeromeme]

S2 looks like less noise and more detail to me, not much but better.

Regards,
Sean

For those that are interested here is a comparison I made between
the S2 and the 20D from the charts from DPReview, and Imaging
Resource. I know res charts don't tell the whole story, but they do
tell some of the story as far as resolution goes. First is the 20D
chart from DPreview, and second is from Imaging Resource.

uh - would be nicer if we can see both chart simultaneously rather
flashing back and forth

 

[grazuncle]

I wished I could transpose' similar looking' images like this in the past... You move the object, or your eye, and you lose the memory of what you were looking at.

that said.. i'm no sure which i prefer.. it's a close call to me for different reasons. Image quality (real life) is the test and resolution is not king in this department. Colour and composition is something that (and i have repeated this many times in these forums) keeps me looking at images i took a long time ago on inferior (by S2 standards) equipment. My S2 is way beyond what I need right now.. I'm pleased to say there's room for expansion in my use of this kit.

Thanks for posting Sean

Regards,
Sean

For those that are interested here is a comparison I made between
the S2 and the 20D from the charts from DPReview, and Imaging
Resource. I know res charts don't tell the whole story, but they do
tell some of the story as far as resolution goes. First is the 20D
chart from DPreview, and second is from Imaging Resource.

uh - would be nicer if we can see both chart simultaneously rather
flashing back and forth

--
regards to all

Sooty

 

[Derrel87035]

Sean, I agree with your contention that the 20D and S2 and almost equal,at least from this resolution test sample set you've provided us with. I looked at Phil Askey's very-first batch of 20D samples today....I must say, the color accuracy and smooth tonal transitions and overall "look' of the 20D photos Phil says are still 'preliminary' are all very pleasingly displayed. The 20D looks like it has nice,accurate colors,and overall very high image quality.

I have not looked at the exact file sizes the 20D captures at...to me that's a factor, not only in the capture size in terms of long axis x short axis (area), but also CF card storage. My feeling is that the 8MP Canon,since it's not a SuperCCD, will actually capture with a file size savings over the S2 at any given capture size. Meaning that the 20D is a lot more economical on CF card storage for its CCD-RAW captures than the S2 is.
--
Happy Shooting!
Derrel

 

[Paulo Abreu]

Hi Sean, thanks for posting those charts.

Canon 20D looks like beeing a fine imager. For what I've seen so far, it doesn't look as the image quality will be the main comparison issue to S2 - Ok, a bit more resolution here, a bit less noise there ... very small differences that won't affect much the final image quality, IMHO (btw, 20D Iso3200 looks niiice). Anyway, very few people will take advantage of the extra 2 Mp, IF it can deliver extra detail (it seems as not much more) as a final purpose to print or something ...

However, the body construction, fps and buffer, flash and improved AF (promised, Canon isn't very trusty on this issue ) are very nice features ... FOR THE PRICE! Yes, its the price that impresses for that pack of features. That's good ... it puts lot of pressure on competition and that is a big help for us too ... S2 owners!

I don't know for other people here ... I've tested 300D and D70 ... these two cameras are two miles behind S2 concerning highlight rendering, especially in raw and Adobe CS ACR - I don't expect much better from 20D either ... maybe I am wrong. I won't speculate much here, lets wait from the samples and owner opinions of 20D and S3, D200 ... I'm just a bit sad now about the S3 announced features ... I just hope Fuji is still on time to review the AF module ...

Finally, I would welcome a price from S3 not exceeding the $1500. Even at that price tag, I think Fuji should thank the loyal customers that will make the upgrade - Canon 20D is a tough competitor, next Nikon in the D100 line will put lots of pressure on S2 owners.

Disclaimer: I am writing this after a couple of Portuguese red wine glasses, excuse the typos and the extra honesty

Regards,

For those that are interested here is a comparison I made between
the S2 and the 20D from the charts from DPReview, and Imaging
Resource. I know res charts don't tell the whole story, but they do
tell some of the story as far as resolution goes. First is the 20D
chart from DPreview, and second is from Imaging Resource.



Looks pretty much equal to the S2 as far as resolution goes.

Regards,
Sean

--
Paulo Abreu,

'Buy a FujiFilm S2 Pro TODAY because ONE DAY you will be dead !'
http://www.mcscenter.net/~psergio/index.php

 

[Sean Keegan]

I wished I could transpose' similar looking' images like this in
the past... You move the object, or your eye, and you lose the
memory of what you were looking at.

that said.. i'm no sure which i prefer.. it's a close call to me
for different reasons. Image quality (real life) is the test and
resolution is not king in this department. Colour and composition
is something that (and i have repeated this many times in these
forums) keeps me looking at images i took a long time ago on
inferior (by S2 standards) equipment. My S2 is way beyond what I
need right now.. I'm pleased to say there's room for expansion in
my use of this kit.

I agree Alan... I still LOVE some of my images I made with my frist digital camera, my CoolPix 900 1MP camera. Horrible by today's standards, but the photos are still interesting to me.

The S2 will still be taking great images 10 years from now (if it lasts that long, if I still had it). My old 900 could not pass the time test.... but the S2 could for some people who do not need to crop or print too large.

-Sean

 

[Sean Keegan]

Sean, I agree with your contention that the 20D and S2 and almost
equal,at least from this resolution test sample set you've provided
us with. I looked at Phil Askey's very-first batch of 20D samples
today....I must say, the color accuracy and smooth tonal
transitions and overall "look' of the 20D photos Phil says are
still 'preliminary' are all very pleasingly displayed. The 20D
looks like it has nice,accurate colors,and overall very high image
quality.

I have not looked at the exact file sizes the 20D captures at...to
me that's a factor, not only in the capture size in terms of long
axis x short axis (area), but also CF card storage. My feeling is
that the 8MP Canon,since it's not a SuperCCD, will actually capture
with a file size savings over the S2 at any given capture size.
Meaning that the 20D is a lot more economical on CF card storage
for its CCD-RAW captures than the S2 is.

And especially better than the S3! That is a huge negative to me, the RAW size of the S3. I could live with it if it were true 12mp resolution... but it probably will not be. File size is important to me too.

--
Happy Shooting!
Derrel

 

[RedDawg]

I know res charts don't tell the whole story, but they do tell some of the story as far as resolution goes

I take S-ccd res charts with a grain of salt. The diagonal sensor array will naturally do better on vertical and horizontalk lines as compared to a bayer sensor. But turn that array,(or the res chart) to a 45 degree angle, and then let's see what the S-ccd resolves.

 

[earthbound_ca]

Hey 'Dawg,

We Fujians like our S2, its 45 degree sensor arrangement, and the real world resolution it offers. There are a couple of compromises associated with the diagonal array but, in general, the benefits outweigh the liabilities. If you are interested in learning more, feel free to read:

http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF7.html where there is a section on the Super CCD and also:

http://www.binbooks.com/books/photo/i/l/57646AE6BD&orig=1 where the concept of a diagonal array, interpolation and resolution are discussed.

Again, we Fujians generally like our S2s for a reason. We also like -- or are attracted to -- many other cameras (where appropriate to the task) for the strengths that they offer beyond what the S2 can deliver; those strengths are, more often than not, related to effectiveness of handling, not image quality.

The general consensus here is that, as with photographers, the perfect camera has not yet been made; I don't think 1000 people will post after me indicating that they think the S2 is perfect... although there may be a few.

The S2 certainly was an extremely attractive option when it was launched over two years ago and it remains a preferred imaging tool to many people for numerous -- not all -- numerous applications even to this very day. After Photokina that may change... but I'm not holding my breath. I think the S2's imaging capability will hold its own quite nicely alongside the new generation DSLRs, at least, at the 8 MP level. On the "value scale", with the S3, however, I'm not so certain it will be competitive from the get-go if speculation concerning its price comes true except for those individuals requiring latitude at the expense of speed. The things holding the S2 back from being classified as a "classic DSLR" (mind you, we're too new into this medium to have a classic anyway!) involve its handling, not its imaging capability by and large.

If you wish to take pictures of rez charts at 45 degrees, feel free.

I know res charts don't tell the whole story, but they do tell some of the story as far as resolution goes

I take S-ccd res charts with a grain of salt. The diagonal sensor
array will naturally do better on vertical and horizontalk lines as
compared to a bayer sensor. But turn that array,(or the res chart)
to a 45 degree angle, and then let's see what the S-ccd resolves.

--
---------------------------
JF really is Uncle Joe

 

[Anthony32599]

You're going to look awfully funny taking pictures with your camera at a 45 degree angle all the time just to match SuperCCD resolution.

Anthony

I know res charts don't tell the whole story, but they do tell some of the story as far as resolution goes

I take S-ccd res charts with a grain of salt. The diagonal sensor
array will naturally do better on vertical and horizontalk lines as
compared to a bayer sensor. But turn that array,(or the res chart)
to a 45 degree angle, and then let's see what the S-ccd resolves.

 

[Sean Keegan]

http://www.pbase.com/image/24255129/original

Looks to me no matter what axis you measure, S2 has better resolution than any other 6mp camera.

Regards,
Sean

I know res charts don't tell the whole story, but they do tell some of the story as far as resolution goes

I take S-ccd res charts with a grain of salt. The diagonal sensor
array will naturally do better on vertical and horizontalk lines as
compared to a bayer sensor. But turn that array,(or the res chart)
to a 45 degree angle, and then let's see what the S-ccd resolves.

 

[David Martin]

Derrel, unfortunately you can only get 80 RAW files from the 20D on a 1GB card - there seems to be something peculiar in their file format, as you can also get 80 RAW plus the accompanying 80 large JPEGs on a 1Gb card.

Sean, I agree with your contention that the 20D and S2 and almost
equal,at least from this resolution test sample set you've provided
us with. I looked at Phil Askey's very-first batch of 20D samples
today....I must say, the color accuracy and smooth tonal
transitions and overall "look' of the 20D photos Phil says are
still 'preliminary' are all very pleasingly displayed. The 20D
looks like it has nice,accurate colors,and overall very high image
quality.

I have not looked at the exact file sizes the 20D captures at...to
me that's a factor, not only in the capture size in terms of long
axis x short axis (area), but also CF card storage. My feeling is
that the 8MP Canon,since it's not a SuperCCD, will actually capture
with a file size savings over the S2 at any given capture size.
Meaning that the 20D is a lot more economical on CF card storage
for its CCD-RAW captures than the S2 is.
--
Happy Shooting!
Derrel

--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment

 

[David Martin]

Dave over at Imaging Resources as done a number of shots to illustrate this - check out his samples - wuite a nice fade to blown highlights, with none of the sharp cut-off of the 10D - should be interesting when we have decent RAW tools to see what it can really do.

Anyway, although of course it doesn't approach the degree of extra dynamic range the new Fuji sensors are going for, it looks good enough so that it won't be the problem it was on the 10D - wedding photogs, rejoice!

Canon 20D looks like beeing a fine imager. For what I've seen so
far, it doesn't look as the image quality will be the main
comparison issue to S2 - Ok, a bit more resolution here, a bit less
noise there ... very small differences that won't affect much the
final image quality, IMHO (btw, 20D Iso3200 looks niiice). Anyway,
very few people will take advantage of the extra 2 Mp, IF it can
deliver extra detail (it seems as not much more) as a final purpose
to print or something ...

However, the body construction, fps and buffer, flash and improved
AF (promised, Canon isn't very trusty on this issue ) are very
nice features ... FOR THE PRICE! Yes, its the price that impresses
for that pack of features. That's good ... it puts lot of pressure
on competition and that is a big help for us too ... S2 owners!

I don't know for other people here ... I've tested 300D and D70 ...
these two cameras are two miles behind S2 concerning highlight
rendering, especially in raw and Adobe CS ACR - I don't expect much
better from 20D either ... maybe I am wrong. I won't speculate much
here, lets wait from the samples and owner opinions of 20D and S3,
D200 ... I'm just a bit sad now about the S3 announced features ...
I just hope Fuji is still on time to review the AF module ...

Finally, I would welcome a price from S3 not exceeding the $1500.
Even at that price tag, I think Fuji should thank the loyal
customers that will make the upgrade - Canon 20D is a tough
competitor, next Nikon in the D100 line will put lots of pressure
on S2 owners.

Disclaimer: I am writing this after a couple of Portuguese red wine
glasses, excuse the typos and the extra honesty

Regards,

For those that are interested here is a comparison I made between
the S2 and the 20D from the charts from DPReview, and Imaging
Resource. I know res charts don't tell the whole story, but they do
tell some of the story as far as resolution goes. First is the 20D
chart from DPreview, and second is from Imaging Resource.



Looks pretty much equal to the S2 as far as resolution goes.

Regards,
Sean

--
Paulo Abreu,

'Buy a FujiFilm S2 Pro TODAY because ONE DAY you will be dead !'
http://www.mcscenter.net/~psergio/index.php

--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment

 

[RedDawg]

Interesting test. Who performed it? I would be very interested in seeing the test done under controlled conditions by an unbiased observer, but it is interesting nonetheless.

I think the S-CCD is an excellent sensor. Great color, great high ISO performance, and excellent latitude. I just am not convinced that it actually provides higher resolution than other 6MP sensors. I am certainly not alone there, as S-CCD's have been controversial since the beginning.

Looks to me no matter what axis you measure, S2 has better
resolution than any other 6mp camera.

Regards,
Sean

I know res charts don't tell the whole story, but they do tell some of the story as far as resolution goes

I take S-ccd res charts with a grain of salt. The diagonal sensor
array will naturally do better on vertical and horizontalk lines as
compared to a bayer sensor. But turn that array,(or the res chart)
to a 45 degree angle, and then let's see what the S-ccd resolves.

 

[earthbound_ca]

The images Sean presented were taken by Fujifilm Corporation of Japan... NOT. I'm sure whoever took them used the S2 at RAW and the 1Ds at lowest JPEG... NOT. C'mon.

RedDawg wrote:
SNIP

I just am not convinced
that it actually provides higher resolution than other 6MP sensors.

No one here is going to satisfy your definition of "unbiased" so you'll have to satisfy yourself. Of course you won't and, in not doing so, you are afforded the luxury of maintaining your unconvinced status. Enjoy it.

I am certainly not alone there, as S-CCD's have been controversial
since the beginning.

Controversial to those not willing to look past hard-to-understand -- I'll even say "bogus" -- claims of 12MPs. No one here is saying the S2 resolves like a 12MP camera.

 

[DavidMillier]

Hi Sean

Thank you for the comparison but surely it is time to set aside nitpicking resolution differences?

I have a 14n and a D100 (can't comment on the S2 or the Canons) - I can see a step forward in resolution between my two cameras that seems worth expending a modicum of mental energy on but differences between 6MP cameras and between 8MP cameras, whilst there, are not realy worth get overly excited about, IMO.

DSLRs are maturing to the point where they all produce pretty good image quality - perhaps it is time to start worrying less about the basics of image quality and more about aesthetics (still the weakest area!)?

See the latest on http://www.luminous-landscape.com/new/index.shtml for food for thought....

For those that are interested here is a comparison I made between
the S2 and the 20D from the charts from DPReview, and Imaging
Resource. I know res charts don't tell the whole story, but they do
tell some of the story as far as resolution goes. First is the 20D
chart from DPreview, and second is from Imaging Resource.



Looks pretty much equal to the S2 as far as resolution goes.

Regards,
Sean

 

[Steve Bingham]

Interesting. I compared both from this site a couple days ago. Phil pretty much said the same thing. Both had resolution about the same with a slight edge going to the 20D.

However, notice that the S2 has less noise, even at this low ISO. The S2 still seems to have a 2 stop noise advantage (see standard deviation of lumination charts). This, of course, will enable the S2 to easily out resolve the 20D at higher ISOs - like 800 and 1600.

So. Be glad. Take some more pictures!

Steve Bingham
http://www.dustylens.com

 

[earthbound_ca]

We'll have more visitors from the Canon, Kodak and Nikon forums (or is that fora?) than ever before!!! Cheers.

Oops... did I forget to mention Sigma? Oly? Wonder how that could slip.

Interesting...

SNIP