New 1Ds testing: Feedback please

STBeck

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New 1Ds: First observations

I shoot location interiors -- mostly kitchens -- for a national cabinetry brand, used in color showroom literature, trade ads, large posters, and on the web. This type of shooting is pretty demanding: It requires wide lenses, and almost always mixes light sources: Studio strobes, daylight through windows, incandescent room fixtures, etc. Sometimes there is even some fluorescent in the mix. Depth of field is always an issue, so I have to throw in enough light to shoot at f8 or smaller. And to burn in the ambient, shutter speeds are generally 1/8 to 1s.

The steady dwindling of good-quality drum scanning has prompted me to finally go digital, and I received my 1Ds last week. I had been shooting medium format (6x7) and my hope was to meet or exceed that quality level.

Here’s what my first testing has turned up. I would appreciate any feedback, either corroborating or disputing, to what I have found so far:

Resolution/general quality: The 1Ds can exceed the quality of 6x7 film scanned on a $40,000 drum scanner. In fact, it approaches the quality of scanned 4x5. (I have been buying scans since the mid 80s, and before scanners existed, I did optical color seps on an ancient vertical camera. I have a good eye for a good scan.)

Settings: After a fair bit of experimentation, using a 24-70 f2.8L this is what is emerging:

The 1Ds set for ISO 100-200 exceeds drum-scanned 6x7 for detail, especially shadow detail, and for smooth tonality. ISO 400 with noise reduction on is a pretty close match to my 6x7 scans in terms of detail, color quality and contrast. ISOs of 100-200 have a lower contrast and smoother color character than average scans. I have experimented only a little with ISO 50, but see no appreciable benefit over ISO 100.

The “raw” file format seems clearly superior to any jpeg settings, especially in shadow detail.

I have found color matrix 4 to be closest to my scans. With scanned film, I always have to desaturate images quite a bit, since interiors and wood can look harsh and garish if the saturation is not kept in check. (I also pull the black way back on press.) With 1Ds shots at matrix 4, I still desaturate a bit, but not as much.

Sharpening set at 3/med-fine seems best. I still sharpen in Photoshop, unsharp mask starting at 100/1.0/0.

The “daylight” white balance setting gives the truest color with my Calumet Travelites and the mixed light sources described above.

I am using the Canon software to export raw files to my Powerbook G4 for previewing and saving to disk. I find the Canon software to be a bit clunky and slow, but for my shooting, it will probably suffice. A full-day location shoot will usually only net eight to ten images, so “workflow” is not that much of an issue for me.

So...does what I have found fit with your experiences? Am I overlooking something? Any insight would be appreciated.

Steve Beck
 
New 1Ds: First observations
So...does what I have found fit with your experiences? Am I
overlooking something? Any insight would be appreciated.

Steve Beck
Sounds like you are doing very well with the 1ds.

If you are still using the Canon raw conversion software, you should consider Phase One's Capture One, (people rave about it, I wasn't blown away, but I am on a Mac and the Mac version that I tried was the first one, s'pozed to be better now) or Adobe's raw converter.
--
-Kel 2K
 
...other than that people on this board love it, and that it costs an arm and a leg. What will C1 gain me? (Not being argumentative here -- just dumb.)
S
 
for interiors - you might also want to try panaoramic shooting with your 1Ds

I use a 50mm in vertical orientation. Because your distances are short, you will have optical nodal point issues, so your tripod will need to allow for front to back movement of your camera. http://www.panoguide.com has a good description of how to adjust for this.

I use a 35 dollar stitching tool from smokey city design called panorama factory.

this method will allow you to go very wide angle with out the distortion and greatly increase your available pixels

If you try this and like it - ultimately you can benefit from a panoramic head made for this type of work. I use a bogen. Once again there is lots of info on this at http://www.panoguide.com .
New 1Ds: First observations

I shoot location interiors -- mostly kitchens -- for a national
cabinetry brand, used in color showroom literature, trade ads,
large posters, and on the web. This type of shooting is pretty
demanding: It requires wide lenses, and almost always mixes light
sources: Studio strobes, daylight through windows, incandescent
room fixtures, etc. Sometimes there is even some fluorescent in the
mix. Depth of field is always an issue, so I have to throw in
enough light to shoot at f8 or smaller. And to burn in the ambient,
shutter speeds are generally 1/8 to 1s.

The steady dwindling of good-quality drum scanning has prompted me
to finally go digital, and I received my 1Ds last week. I had been
shooting medium format (6x7) and my hope was to meet or exceed that
quality level.

Here’s what my first testing has turned up. I would appreciate any
feedback, either corroborating or disputing, to what I have found
so far:

Resolution/general quality: The 1Ds can exceed the quality of 6x7
film scanned on a $40,000 drum scanner. In fact, it approaches the
quality of scanned 4x5. (I have been buying scans since the mid
80s, and before scanners existed, I did optical color seps on an
ancient vertical camera. I have a good eye for a good scan.)

Settings: After a fair bit of experimentation, using a 24-70 f2.8L
this is what is emerging:

The 1Ds set for ISO 100-200 exceeds drum-scanned 6x7 for detail,
especially shadow detail, and for smooth tonality. ISO 400 with
noise reduction on is a pretty close match to my 6x7 scans in terms
of detail, color quality and contrast. ISOs of 100-200 have a lower
contrast and smoother color character than average scans. I have
experimented only a little with ISO 50, but see no appreciable
benefit over ISO 100.

The “raw” file format seems clearly superior to any jpeg settings,
especially in shadow detail.

I have found color matrix 4 to be closest to my scans. With scanned
film, I always have to desaturate images quite a bit, since
interiors and wood can look harsh and garish if the saturation is
not kept in check. (I also pull the black way back on press.) With
1Ds shots at matrix 4, I still desaturate a bit, but not as much.

Sharpening set at 3/med-fine seems best. I still sharpen in
Photoshop, unsharp mask starting at 100/1.0/0.

The “daylight” white balance setting gives the truest color with my
Calumet Travelites and the mixed light sources described above.

I am using the Canon software to export raw files to my Powerbook
G4 for previewing and saving to disk. I find the Canon software to
be a bit clunky and slow, but for my shooting, it will probably
suffice. A full-day location shoot will usually only net eight to
ten images, so “workflow” is not that much of an issue for me.

So...does what I have found fit with your experiences? Am I
overlooking something? Any insight would be appreciated.

Steve Beck
--
John Mason - Lafayette, IN
 
S,

I suggest you to take a look at my website, http://www.pixource.com , MichaelT's site, http://www.pictureflow.com , and also, PhaseOne's website, http://www.c1dslr.com , all have a lot of information on C1, what it does, why it is raved by so many etc.

c1dslr.com has an 'education' section which you may find useful. you are always welcome to download the trial from http://www.pixource.com .

Enjoy!
...other than that people on this board love it, and that it costs
an arm and a leg. What will C1 gain me? (Not being argumentative
here -- just dumb.)
S
--
WSLam

PIXOURCE Digital
Your source for C1 in Asia
http://www.pixource.com/

Equipment List: http://www.lam.ws/cameralist.html
 
Steve, thanks for the good information. It is interesting to see
how a working 1Ds fairs in the hands of a working photographer.
And it started "working" today. Just got back from my first paying shoot with the Ds. Just a little quicky hour shoot in a manuf plant, taking some reference shots of a new product before it gets shipped out. But the client was just wowed by the quick review on the Powerbook, and even at the small jpeg setting, they loved the quality. Just shot with a Vivitar 285 on-camera, and everything worked great.

My first big location interior shoot is coming up in a week or so, and I can't wait! (And it's in the home of one of the senior VPs at the client, so I'd better not screw up.)

What a FANTASTIC tool this Ds is. I intend to make LOTS of money with it. ;-)
S
 
Just a warning that some older Vivtar flashes have high sync voltages that can damage the 1Ds.

Also you mentioned using Matrix 4, but that is just for Jpeg right?

Rick
 
I shoot a lot of interiors. I used to shoot on 6x9 film with a 4x5. Since getting the 1Ds, I haven't shot one interior on film.

You really owe it to yourself to download the Capture One trial software (complete program use for 30 days) and shoot tethered. It will change the way you work.

Alan Goldstein

http://www.goldsteinphoto.com
 
Good post, Beck.

I agree with your observation of daylight WB and the Calumet Travelites. I have the same 1Ds/Travelites and find they are well-balanced for daylight temp.

Nice to hear (again) that the Ds meets or exceeds 6x7 and 4x5 scans!

Stick with RAW, invest in C1!

Lates,
Sal
New 1Ds: First observations

I shoot location interiors -- mostly kitchens -- for a national
cabinetry brand, used in color showroom literature, trade ads,
large posters, and on the web. This type of shooting is pretty
demanding: It requires wide lenses, and almost always mixes light
sources: Studio strobes, daylight through windows, incandescent
room fixtures, etc. Sometimes there is even some fluorescent in the
mix. Depth of field is always an issue, so I have to throw in
enough light to shoot at f8 or smaller. And to burn in the ambient,
shutter speeds are generally 1/8 to 1s.

The steady dwindling of good-quality drum scanning has prompted me
to finally go digital, and I received my 1Ds last week. I had been
shooting medium format (6x7) and my hope was to meet or exceed that
quality level.

Here’s what my first testing has turned up. I would appreciate any
feedback, either corroborating or disputing, to what I have found
so far:

Resolution/general quality: The 1Ds can exceed the quality of 6x7
film scanned on a $40,000 drum scanner. In fact, it approaches the
quality of scanned 4x5. (I have been buying scans since the mid
80s, and before scanners existed, I did optical color seps on an
ancient vertical camera. I have a good eye for a good scan.)

Settings: After a fair bit of experimentation, using a 24-70 f2.8L
this is what is emerging:

The 1Ds set for ISO 100-200 exceeds drum-scanned 6x7 for detail,
especially shadow detail, and for smooth tonality. ISO 400 with
noise reduction on is a pretty close match to my 6x7 scans in terms
of detail, color quality and contrast. ISOs of 100-200 have a lower
contrast and smoother color character than average scans. I have
experimented only a little with ISO 50, but see no appreciable
benefit over ISO 100.

The “raw” file format seems clearly superior to any jpeg settings,
especially in shadow detail.

I have found color matrix 4 to be closest to my scans. With scanned
film, I always have to desaturate images quite a bit, since
interiors and wood can look harsh and garish if the saturation is
not kept in check. (I also pull the black way back on press.) With
1Ds shots at matrix 4, I still desaturate a bit, but not as much.

Sharpening set at 3/med-fine seems best. I still sharpen in
Photoshop, unsharp mask starting at 100/1.0/0.

The “daylight” white balance setting gives the truest color with my
Calumet Travelites and the mixed light sources described above.

I am using the Canon software to export raw files to my Powerbook
G4 for previewing and saving to disk. I find the Canon software to
be a bit clunky and slow, but for my shooting, it will probably
suffice. A full-day location shoot will usually only net eight to
ten images, so “workflow” is not that much of an issue for me.

So...does what I have found fit with your experiences? Am I
overlooking something? Any insight would be appreciated.

Steve Beck
 
Just a warning that some older Vivtar flashes have high sync
voltages that can damage the 1Ds.
Rick: I was worried about that. (I shoot wireless with the strobes -- pocket wiz.) This is a brand new 285HV. Is that one safe?

I started out a hundred years ago as a news shooter, and used a Viv 285 to death. They are so simple and reliable (until the foot breaks) that I just got another one. But I will trash it in a heartbeat if it is a danger to the Ds.
Also you mentioned using Matrix 4, but that is just for Jpeg right?
I'm using matrix 4 on my raw files. Or at least that's what the settings on the camera say. Am I confusing something?

Thanks for all the feedback!
S
 
You really owe it to yourself to download the Capture One trial
software (complete program use for 30 days) and shoot tethered. It
will change the way you work.
Alan: All my testing so far has been shot tethered, but just using the Canon software, and flipping things over to Photoshop now and then for closer examination. How will C1 change the way I work?

THANKS
S
 
Nice to hear (again) that the Ds meets or exceeds 6x7 and 4x5 scans!
Well, it beats the scans I have gotten in the last couple of years. Scanning is such an art, that it is possible that a really GOOD operator with a really GREAT drum scanner could put out something better from MF film. But with the market for this work drying up, it seems the good operators are moving on to something else. I have seen the quality of the scans decline from my suppliers over the last year. The hardware has not changed, so it must be that the operators have.

Before I got the Ds in hand, I was prepared to accept a small degree of image inferiority in exchange for the many workflow and cost benefits of digital. To instead get image superiority -- major happy here!

S
 
This post has been the single most usefull thread I have read about the 1Ds......ever !!

I too shoot mostly architecture, previously with Sinar 8x10, now with an Arca Swiss monolith 4x5 / 6x9, lenses range from a 35mm Apo Grandagon upto a 300mm,
I am now sitting and awaiting delivery of my 1Ds.......

I have upto now shot some work on a D60, but quality and the 1.6 multiplier factor has been my major problems, after almost a year of deliberation I decide last week ( after many clients repeatedly asking for final work to be delivered digital and in CMYK !!) to order the 1Ds and the 24-70.

Check out the RAW converter in Photoshop CS it is in my opinion the best..I never need to switch between programs from capture to final sharpening and conversion to CMYK

Many thanks to you all for this great post and the information

Mike
 
was just sitting here at work cleaning the dust off my 1Ds sensor when I started this thread.

I love my 1Ds... (and my 1D)

People are starting to want to buy stuff off me. Amazing.
This post has been the single most usefull thread I have read about
the 1Ds......ever !!
I too shoot mostly architecture, previously with Sinar 8x10, now
with an Arca Swiss monolith 4x5 / 6x9, lenses range from a 35mm Apo
Grandagon upto a 300mm,
I am now sitting and awaiting delivery of my 1Ds.......
I have upto now shot some work on a D60, but quality and the 1.6
multiplier factor has been my major problems, after almost a year
of deliberation I decide last week ( after many clients repeatedly
asking for final work to be delivered digital and in CMYK !!) to
order the 1Ds and the 24-70.
Check out the RAW converter in Photoshop CS it is in my opinion the
best..I never need to switch between programs from capture to final
sharpening and conversion to CMYK

Many thanks to you all for this great post and the information

Mike
--
-------------------------------------
Off Topic ? ? ? Tell someone who cares.
Get a life!
 
“S”, Alan and Mike,

I almost hate to bring this up, but I also have abandoned my medium format for the 1Ds, and I’m curious....

A friend from California (actually he is the guy who turned me onto the quality of the 1Ds images - I would not have believe it coming from most other sources) recently flew to NYC (sans camera), rented a Hasselblad with the 22 mp back and computer/software operator for a shoot. The client could see the images as they were taken and left that day with DVDs full of the days work. Dean told me the quality was, “like 8 x 10 without the grain”. Given that you’re doing studio type work, does this tweak your curiosity?
 
To add a further question to this - Forget Canons Raw conversation.
Why is C1 so much better than Photoshop?
You really owe it to yourself to download the Capture One trial
software (complete program use for 30 days) and shoot tethered. It
will change the way you work.
Alan: All my testing so far has been shot tethered, but just using
the Canon software, and flipping things over to Photoshop now and
then for closer examination. How will C1 change the way I work?

THANKS
S
 
Just a warning that some older Vivtar flashes have high sync
voltages that can damage the 1Ds.
Rick: I was worried about that. (I shoot wireless with the strobes
-- pocket wiz.) This is a brand new 285HV. Is that one safe?
Hi S, I think you should be OK with a new 285 and if you are using a pocket wiz there is no problem at all. Apparently some of the older 283's and 285's had very high volages that could damage the camera. I am even being told that lower voltage's over 10v can have a cumulative effect so best to use the wiz or a "safe sync". You can measure the voltage with a multimeter.
I'm using matrix 4 on my raw files. Or at least that's what the
settings on the camera say. Am I confusing something?
My understanding is the matrix settings only work for JPEG. In fact none of the camera settings do anything to the Raw file...only the WB which I believe is used by some of the Raw conversion programs as a "starter" setting.

You had asked on another post about Capture One. It is a nice raw conversion solution but Photoshop CS also works well. In my opinion both of these programs are close in the quality of the conversion. It's all about workflow. Photoshop is faster with individual images (much faster than Canon's software) but Capture One's batch processing works in the background.

My suggestion is that you get Photoshop CS and learn to use its raw conversion capabilities, then later download Capture One 30 day demo and give it a go. I prefer Capture One in my particular workflow and because it works nicely tethered but your needs may be different.

Rick
 
“S”, Alan and Mike,
Sorry..."S" is Steve. (Yes, yet another Steve. There is one under every rock.) I just get in the habit of the shorthand sig with people I know.
rented a Hasselblad with the 22 mp back and computer/software operator for
a shoot. “like 8 x 10 without the grain”. Given that you’re
doing studio type work, does this tweak your curiosity?
The question is "Does it tweak $27,500 worth of curiousity?" I looked real hard at a Leaf Valeo 22 before I settled on the Ds. No way could I justify that amount of money. And anyway, I think these new 35mm-based full-frame sensor cameras (most say the Ds is currently the only viable one) are going to drive the price of these MF backs WAY down in the future. I would hate to be someone who just dumped almost 30-large into one of these...then see their value fall through the floor in the near future.

The question is not "Will a purchase pay for itself eventually?" Yes, of course it will. The real question is "Will it pay out before it is obsolete?" I have a buddy who bought one of the first tethered digital backs, and paid over 35 for it. Now it is a boat anchor, with almost no resale or use value. Its image quality is nowhere near what we now get from the Ds for less than eight.

IMHO
S(teve)
 

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