My requests for improvements PL6 sent to DxO-support

[Ab S]

The following (here shown in a slightly shortened version) I have sent to DxO to consider for a future version, hopefully PL7. My main reasons to like PL are i) the very good NR, DeepPrime (XD) including options to fine tune, ii) the optical/distortion correction and iii) the control point/line technology. I would like to stick to PL, because I find the route via a DNG imported in other s/w (like C1) too complicated.

But, I think a few things should change to keep me at PL as my main post processing s/w. So, I wrote to DxO support desk.

The three features that need improvement (my personal opinion) are

• (Auto)masking and subject recognition
• Viewing i) the DeepPrime (XD) window ii) full image viewing
• Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

(Auto)masking and subject recognition

My problem is with using the brush for both normal masking the auto masking/subject and shape recognition in general. The current PL set up is really out dated: i) The auto masking is very limited in use, ii) the effect of auto masking is not visible in real time.

My request for improvement in a future set (PL7?)
- Keep the good things: control points/lines
- Implement subject recognition, or even better, subject recognition by pointing at a subject
- Make the mask real time visible and allow for manually editing with the brush, a classical brush and/or 'AI' brush (see e.g. the masking features of Topaz photo AI).

Viewing i) the DeepPrime (XD) window ii) full image viewing

i) the DeepPrime viewing window
DeepPrime (XD) is a key reason to use PL, it is may be the best NR available on the market. Also the fine tuning - strength and (XD) noise model - is very much appreciated.
However, in the current viewing set up of PL6 the window is much too small to evaluate the impact of the (fine) tuning of the noise model.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
- Implement a user option to enhance the image 100/200% AND
- and a user option to enlarge the NR window; users with a less powerful GPU could stick at the current size, while other users could select a larger window.

ii) Full image viewing
In the current PL6 set up when an image is viewed full size the sharpness is not representative. Only if you crop the viewing to about 80% one can evaluate sharpness. This makes editing (e.g. adjusting color/tone and sharpening) complicated: you have to jump back and forward again between full view and cropped view.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
- Implement (a user option) to view the full image in full sharpness applied.

Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

Although I appreciate the SmartView feature in PL6 I also use the Selective Tone sliders

In the present set up of PL6 I find the four Selective Tone sliders are overlapping far too much: e.g. the Blacks slider is also heavily influencing shadows and midtones as is the Shadow Slider. Actually the Blacks slider is impacting the whole image and so does the Highlights slider.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
Make the impact of the Selective tone sliders much more discriminative: Highlights only highlights, blacks only black, etc.

If you agree with one or more of these suggestions for improvement, please also write to DxO. May be that works....


Ab

 

[Zeee]

The following (here shown in a slightly shortened version) I have sent to DxO to consider for a future version, hopefully PL7. My main reasons to like PL are i) the very good NR, DeepPrime (XD) including options to fine tune, ii) the optical/distortion correction and iii) the control point/line technology. I would like to stick to PL, because I find the route via a DNG imported in other s/w (like C1) too complicated.

But, I think a few things should change to keep me at PL as my main post processing s/w. So, I wrote to DxO support desk.

The three features that need improvement (my personal opinion) are

• (Auto)masking and subject recognition
• Viewing i) the DeepPrime (XD) window ii) full image viewing

This will make it sluggish and I believe is why they use a small window? When I once used PL I would have liked a full screen view too.

• Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

(Auto)masking and subject recognition

My problem is with using the brush for both normal masking the auto masking/subject and shape recognition in general. The current PL set up is really out dated: i) The auto masking is very limited in use, ii) the effect of auto masking is not visible in real time.

My request for improvement in a future set (PL7?)
- Keep the good things: control points/lines
- Implement subject recognition, or even better, subject recognition by pointing at a subject
- Make the mask real time visible and allow for manually editing with the brush, a classical brush and/or 'AI' brush (see e.g. the masking features of Topaz photo AI).

Viewing i) the DeepPrime (XD) window ii) full image viewing

i) the DeepPrime viewing window
DeepPrime (XD) is a key reason to use PL, it is may be the best NR available on the market. Also the fine tuning - strength and (XD) noise model - is very much appreciated.
However, in the current viewing set up of PL6 the window is much too small to evaluate the impact of the (fine) tuning of the noise model.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
- Implement a user option to enhance the image 100/200% AND
- and a user option to enlarge the NR window; users with a less powerful GPU could stick at the current size, while other users could select a larger window.

ii) Full image viewing
In the current PL6 set up when an image is viewed full size the sharpness is not representative. Only if you crop the viewing to about 80% one can evaluate sharpness. This makes editing (e.g. adjusting color/tone and sharpening) complicated: you have to jump back and forward again between full view and cropped view.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
- Implement (a user option) to view the full image in full sharpness applied.

Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

Although I appreciate the SmartView feature in PL6 I also use the Selective Tone sliders

In the present set up of PL6 I find the four Selective Tone sliders are overlapping far too much: e.g. the Blacks slider is also heavily influencing shadows and midtones as is the Shadow Slider. Actually the Blacks slider is impacting the whole image and so does the Highlights slider.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
Make the impact of the Selective tone sliders much more discriminative: Highlights only highlights, blacks only black, etc.

If you agree with one or more of these suggestions for improvement, please also write to DxO. May be that works....

Ab

 

[Digital Nigel]

The following (here shown in a slightly shortened version) I have sent to DxO to consider for a future version, hopefully PL7.

It's much too late to change PL7. It's already in beta test, and there won't be any changes to its features. The chances are that even PL8's features are already largely determined already.

My main reasons to like PL are i) the very good NR, DeepPrime (XD) including options to fine tune, ii) the optical/distortion correction and iii) the control point/line technology. I would like to stick to PL, because I find the route via a DNG imported in other s/w (like C1) too complicated.

But, I think a few things should change to keep me at PL as my main post processing s/w. So, I wrote to DxO support desk.

The three features that need improvement (my personal opinion) are

• (Auto)masking and subject recognition
• Viewing i) the DeepPrime (XD) window ii) full image viewing
• Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

(Auto)masking and subject recognition

My problem is with using the brush for both normal masking the auto masking/subject and shape recognition in general. The current PL set up is really out dated: i) The auto masking is very limited in use, ii) the effect of auto masking is not visible in real time.

My request for improvement in a future set (PL7?)
- Keep the good things: control points/lines
- Implement subject recognition, or even better, subject recognition by pointing at a subject
- Make the mask real time visible and allow for manually editing with the brush, a classical brush and/or 'AI' brush (see e.g. the masking features of Topaz photo AI).

Yes, those would be worthwhile, and it's true that PL hasn't improved in this area for a long time, while other products have made big strides. Of course, it's possible that PL7 already includes enhancements in this area — I'm sure it's something many others have been asking for.

Viewing i) the DeepPrime (XD) window ii) full image viewing

i) the DeepPrime viewing window
DeepPrime (XD) is a key reason to use PL, it is may be the best NR available on the market. Also the fine tuning - strength and (XD) noise model - is very much appreciated.
However, in the current viewing set up of PL6 the window is much too small to evaluate the impact of the (fine) tuning of the noise model.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
- Implement a user option to enhance the image 100/200% AND
- and a user option to enlarge the NR window; users with a less powerful GPU could stick at the current size, while other users could select a larger window.

ii) Full image viewing
In the current PL6 set up when an image is viewed full size the sharpness is not representative. Only if you crop the viewing to about 80% one can evaluate sharpness. This makes editing (e.g. adjusting color/tone and sharpening) complicated: you have to jump back and forward again between full view and cropped view.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
- Implement (a user option) to view the full image in full sharpness applied.

With NR as well? If not, what's the point? And if you do fully process the image to see the preview, you might as well save that version in a file.

Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

Although I appreciate the SmartView feature in PL6 I also use the Selective Tone sliders

I wonder if you're making enough use of DxO Smart Lighting (not Smartview, which is not a PL feature)? What range do you typically use?

In the present set up of PL6 I find the four Selective Tone sliders are overlapping far too much: e.g. the Blacks slider is also heavily influencing shadows and midtones as is the Shadow Slider. Actually the Blacks slider is impacting the whole image and so does the Highlights slider.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
Make the impact of the Selective tone sliders much more discriminative: Highlights only highlights, blacks only black, etc.

There is no chance of any change in this area, as it would be incompatible with previous releases. Millions of user images would look different when viewed/edited in such a modified release. So DxO will keep PLn compatible with previous PL release, not copy C1. In any case, I prefer the smooth way that PL works now, and would vote against any change.

Why don't you simply use the Tone curve to accomplish what you want?

If you agree with one or more of these suggestions for improvement, please also write to DxO. May be that works....

Nothing can affect PL7 at this stage. And suggestions now might only influence PL8 if DxO was already considering something similar.

 

[Ab S]

Viewing i) the DeepPrime (XD) window ii) full image viewing

i) the DeepPrime viewing window
DeepPrime (XD) is a key reason to use PL, it is may be the best NR available on the market. Also the fine tuning - strength and (XD) noise model - is very much appreciated.
However, in the current viewing set up of PL6 the window is much too small to evaluate the impact of the (fine) tuning of the noise model.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
- Implement a user option to enhance the image 100/200% AND
- and a user option to enlarge the NR window; users with a less powerful GPU could stick at the current size, while other users could select a larger window.

ii) Full image viewing
In the current PL6 set up when an image is viewed full size the sharpness is not representative. Only if you crop the viewing to about 80% one can evaluate sharpness. This makes editing (e.g. adjusting color/tone and sharpening) complicated: you have to jump back and forward again between full view and cropped view.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
- Implement (a user option) to view the full image in full sharpness applied.

With NR as well? If not, what's the point? And if you do fully process the image to see the preview, you might as well save that version in a file.

I don't need full image to adjust the impact of NR; but applied sharpness of the full image would be appreciated

Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

Although I appreciate the SmartView feature in PL6 I also use the Selective Tone sliders

I wonder if you're making enough use of DxO Smart Lighting (not Smartview, which is not a PL feature)? What range do you typically use?

In the present set up of PL6 I find the four Selective Tone sliders are overlapping far too much: e.g. the Blacks slider is also heavily influencing shadows and midtones as is the Shadow Slider. Actually the Blacks slider is impacting the whole image and so does the Highlights slider.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
Make the impact of the Selective tone sliders much more discriminative: Highlights only highlights, blacks only black, etc.

There is no chance of any change in this area, as it would be incompatible with previous releases. Millions of user images would look different when viewed/edited in such a modified release. So DxO will keep PLn compatible with previous PL release, not copy C1. In any case, I prefer the smooth way that PL works now, and would vote against any change.

Sorry, indeed I meant Smart Lighting (not SmartView). Smart Lighting is a very nice feature and I use it a lot at different strengths. If you say that "you prefer the smooth way that PL works now", then two Selective tone sliders (highlight and shadow) would be enough in my opinion. I sometimes use the tone curve, but it takes me too much effort to use it too often.

Why don't you simply use the Tone curve to accomplish what you want?

If you agree with one or more of these suggestions for improvement, please also write to DxO. May be that works....

Nothing can affect PL7 at this stage. And suggestions now might only influence PL8 if DxO was already considering something similar.

 

[maltmoose]

The following (here shown in a slightly shortened version) I have sent to DxO to consider for a future version, hopefully PL7.

It's much too late to change PL7. It's already in beta test, and there won't be any changes to its features. The chances are that even PL8's features are already largely determined already.

My main reasons to like PL are i) the very good NR, DeepPrime (XD) including options to fine tune, ii) the optical/distortion correction and iii) the control point/line technology. I would like to stick to PL, because I find the route via a DNG imported in other s/w (like C1) too complicated.

But, I think a few things should change to keep me at PL as my main post processing s/w. So, I wrote to DxO support desk.

The three features that need improvement (my personal opinion) are

• (Auto)masking and subject recognition
• Viewing i) the DeepPrime (XD) window ii) full image viewing
• Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

(Auto)masking and subject recognition

My problem is with using the brush for both normal masking the auto masking/subject and shape recognition in general. The current PL set up is really out dated: i) The auto masking is very limited in use, ii) the effect of auto masking is not visible in real time.

My request for improvement in a future set (PL7?)
- Keep the good things: control points/lines
- Implement subject recognition, or even better, subject recognition by pointing at a subject
- Make the mask real time visible and allow for manually editing with the brush, a classical brush and/or 'AI' brush (see e.g. the masking features of Topaz photo AI).

Yes, those would be worthwhile, and it's true that PL hasn't improved in this area for a long time, while other products have made big strides. Of course, it's possible that PL7 already includes enhancements in this area — I'm sure it's something many others have been asking for.

Viewing i) the DeepPrime (XD) window ii) full image viewing

i) the DeepPrime viewing window
DeepPrime (XD) is a key reason to use PL, it is may be the best NR available on the market. Also the fine tuning - strength and (XD) noise model - is very much appreciated.
However, in the current viewing set up of PL6 the window is much too small to evaluate the impact of the (fine) tuning of the noise model.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
- Implement a user option to enhance the image 100/200% AND
- and a user option to enlarge the NR window; users with a less powerful GPU could stick at the current size, while other users could select a larger window.

ii) Full image viewing
In the current PL6 set up when an image is viewed full size the sharpness is not representative. Only if you crop the viewing to about 80% one can evaluate sharpness. This makes editing (e.g. adjusting color/tone and sharpening) complicated: you have to jump back and forward again between full view and cropped view.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
- Implement (a user option) to view the full image in full sharpness applied.

With NR as well? If not, what's the point? And if you do fully process the image to see the preview, you might as well save that version in a file.

Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

Although I appreciate the SmartView feature in PL6 I also use the Selective Tone sliders

I wonder if you're making enough use of DxO Smart Lighting (not Smartview, which is not a PL feature)? What range do you typically use?

In the present set up of PL6 I find the four Selective Tone sliders are overlapping far too much: e.g. the Blacks slider is also heavily influencing shadows and midtones as is the Shadow Slider. Actually the Blacks slider is impacting the whole image and so does the Highlights slider.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
Make the impact of the Selective tone sliders much more discriminative: Highlights only highlights, blacks only black, etc.

There is no chance of any change in this area, as it would be incompatible with previous releases. Millions of user images would look different when viewed/edited in such a modified release. So DxO will keep PLn compatible with previous PL release, not copy C1.

If so i hope dxo is as brave to confirm this so people can make up their own minds.

In any case im sure they could introduce a legacy mode to switch between the new and old method or convert the old settings to the new. No need to break anything.

Many are not yet or fully invested in dxo so improved tools would benefit dxo and new users.

Its not about copying C1 or any other tools, they work fine and so should dxo. You have to admit, the tone sliders do not work effectively, they literally do not do what they say as the op has explained. e.g. Blacks do not just effect blacks...

In any case, I prefer the smooth way that PL works now, and would vote against any change.

Why don't you simply use the Tone curve to accomplish what you want?

DXO curve tool also needs significant improvement...

If you agree with one or more of these suggestions for improvement, please also write to DxO. May be that works....

Nothing can affect PL7 at this stage. And suggestions now might only influence PL8 if DxO was already considering something similar.

I personally think the tone tools are dxo biggest issue that would deter a new user.

 

[sybersitizen]

Make the impact of the Selective tone sliders much more discriminative: Highlights only highlights, blacks only black, etc.

There is no chance of any change in this area, as it would be incompatible with previous releases. Millions of user images would look different when viewed/edited in such a modified release.

I think it could be accomplished. When editing changes are saved, in sidecar files and/or the database, isn't the PhotoLab version number saved? Using that, the revised slider setup could adjust to at least approximately match, and alert the user to the change. A legacy mode could also be retained for anyone preferring the way the sliders work now.

Putting out a piece of software in which such a thing could never be changed would be rather poor planning.

 

[Digital Nigel]

Make the impact of the Selective tone sliders much more discriminative: Highlights only highlights, blacks only black, etc.

There is no chance of any change in this area, as it would be incompatible with previous releases. Millions of user images would look different when viewed/edited in such a modified release.

I think it could be accomplished. When editing changes are saved, in sidecar files and/or the database, isn't the PhotoLab version number saved? Using that, the revised slider setup could adjust to at least approximately match, and alert the user to the change. A legacy mode could also be retained for anyone preferring the way the sliders work now.

That would be very confusing to users. I just don't think an incompatible change like that is needed or desirable.

Putting out a piece of software in which such a thing could never be changed would be rather poor planning.

If such a change was really needed, it would be better to introduce a new, differently named tool, with users given the choice which to use.

DxO went through something like this with the repair tool. The original one was pretty useless, so not many people used it.

So DxO significantly improved it, making it much more useful, but didn't change the name or UI. There was also no option to keep using the tool in a legacy mode.

It then turned out that a small minority of users had used it in a lot in their old images, which then looked and behaved differently. Needless to say, they were very upset, and complained loudly. I don't think DxO will repeat that mistake.

Incidentally, DxO's invitation to a larger number of beta test customers for PL7 suggests that there might be some other step change in it that needs wider testing.

 

[sybersitizen]

Make the impact of the Selective tone sliders much more discriminative: Highlights only highlights, blacks only black, etc.

There is no chance of any change in this area, as it would be incompatible with previous releases. Millions of user images would look different when viewed/edited in such a modified release.

I think it could be accomplished. When editing changes are saved, in sidecar files and/or the database, isn't the PhotoLab version number saved? Using that, the revised slider setup could adjust to at least approximately match, and alert the user to the change. A legacy mode could also be retained for anyone preferring the way the sliders work now.

That would be very confusing to users.

It wouldn't confuse me. I hope other PhotoLab users aren't so easily confused.

I just don't think an incompatible change like that is needed or desirable.

I know you don't, and DxO might never change it. However, other successful photographic software companies have done exactly that kind of thing in order to make improvements, so your claim of no chance just isn't tenable.

 

[Digital Nigel]

The following (here shown in a slightly shortened version) I have sent to DxO to consider for a future version, hopefully PL7.

It's much too late to change PL7. It's already in beta test, and there won't be any changes to its features. The chances are that even PL8's features are already largely determined already.

My main reasons to like PL are i) the very good NR, DeepPrime (XD) including options to fine tune, ii) the optical/distortion correction and iii) the control point/line technology. I would like to stick to PL, because I find the route via a DNG imported in other s/w (like C1) too complicated.

But, I think a few things should change to keep me at PL as my main post processing s/w. So, I wrote to DxO support desk.

The three features that need improvement (my personal opinion) are

• (Auto)masking and subject recognition
• Viewing i) the DeepPrime (XD) window ii) full image viewing
• Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

(Auto)masking and subject recognition

My problem is with using the brush for both normal masking the auto masking/subject and shape recognition in general. The current PL set up is really out dated: i) The auto masking is very limited in use, ii) the effect of auto masking is not visible in real time.

My request for improvement in a future set (PL7?)
- Keep the good things: control points/lines
- Implement subject recognition, or even better, subject recognition by pointing at a subject
- Make the mask real time visible and allow for manually editing with the brush, a classical brush and/or 'AI' brush (see e.g. the masking features of Topaz photo AI).

Yes, those would be worthwhile, and it's true that PL hasn't improved in this area for a long time, while other products have made big strides. Of course, it's possible that PL7 already includes enhancements in this area — I'm sure it's something many others have been asking for.

Viewing i) the DeepPrime (XD) window ii) full image viewing

i) the DeepPrime viewing window
DeepPrime (XD) is a key reason to use PL, it is may be the best NR available on the market. Also the fine tuning - strength and (XD) noise model - is very much appreciated.
However, in the current viewing set up of PL6 the window is much too small to evaluate the impact of the (fine) tuning of the noise model.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
- Implement a user option to enhance the image 100/200% AND
- and a user option to enlarge the NR window; users with a less powerful GPU could stick at the current size, while other users could select a larger window.

ii) Full image viewing
In the current PL6 set up when an image is viewed full size the sharpness is not representative. Only if you crop the viewing to about 80% one can evaluate sharpness. This makes editing (e.g. adjusting color/tone and sharpening) complicated: you have to jump back and forward again between full view and cropped view.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
- Implement (a user option) to view the full image in full sharpness applied.

With NR as well? If not, what's the point? And if you do fully process the image to see the preview, you might as well save that version in a file.

Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

Although I appreciate the SmartView feature in PL6 I also use the Selective Tone sliders

I wonder if you're making enough use of DxO Smart Lighting (not Smartview, which is not a PL feature)? What range do you typically use?

In the present set up of PL6 I find the four Selective Tone sliders are overlapping far too much: e.g. the Blacks slider is also heavily influencing shadows and midtones as is the Shadow Slider. Actually the Blacks slider is impacting the whole image and so does the Highlights slider.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
Make the impact of the Selective tone sliders much more discriminative: Highlights only highlights, blacks only black, etc.

There is no chance of any change in this area, as it would be incompatible with previous releases. Millions of user images would look different when viewed/edited in such a modified release. So DxO will keep PLn compatible with previous PL release, not copy C1.

If so i hope dxo is as brave to confirm this so people can make up their own minds.

Why would you expect DxO to announce that it won't be deliberately making incompatible changes to how its software works? Surely that's what's expected anyway?

In any case im sure they could introduce a legacy mode to switch between the new and old method or convert the old settings to the new. No need to break anything.

Converting the old images to the new method would be impossible. That rules it out.

Many are not yet or fully invested in dxo so improved tools would benefit dxo and new users.

Its not about copying C1 or any other tools, they work fine and so should dxo. You have to admit, the tone sliders do not work effectively, they literally do not do what they say as the op has explained. e.g. Blacks do not just effect blacks...

I'm happy with the way it works now, and would not welcome a change.

In any case, I prefer the smooth way that PL works now, and would vote against any change.

Why don't you simply use the Tone curve to accomplish what you want?

DXO curve tool also needs significant improvement...

In what way?

If you agree with one or more of these suggestions for improvement, please also write to DxO. May be that works....

Nothing can affect PL7 at this stage. And suggestions now might only influence PL8 if DxO was already considering something similar.

I personally think the tone tools are dxo biggest issue that would deter a new user.

Really??? Surely not supporting their camera would be a much bigger issue? Or not having advanced making? Or the slow export speed of DP XD? Or the weak DAM? Or the shortage of training videos?

Given that most users don't use the Smart Lighting control properly, I'd say that user training is a bigger issue than the tone controls.

 

[maltmoose]

The following (here shown in a slightly shortened version) I have sent to DxO to consider for a future version, hopefully PL7.

It's much too late to change PL7. It's already in beta test, and there won't be any changes to its features. The chances are that even PL8's features are already largely determined already.

My main reasons to like PL are i) the very good NR, DeepPrime (XD) including options to fine tune, ii) the optical/distortion correction and iii) the control point/line technology. I would like to stick to PL, because I find the route via a DNG imported in other s/w (like C1) too complicated.

But, I think a few things should change to keep me at PL as my main post processing s/w. So, I wrote to DxO support desk.

The three features that need improvement (my personal opinion) are

• (Auto)masking and subject recognition
• Viewing i) the DeepPrime (XD) window ii) full image viewing
• Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

(Auto)masking and subject recognition

My problem is with using the brush for both normal masking the auto masking/subject and shape recognition in general. The current PL set up is really out dated: i) The auto masking is very limited in use, ii) the effect of auto masking is not visible in real time.

My request for improvement in a future set (PL7?)
- Keep the good things: control points/lines
- Implement subject recognition, or even better, subject recognition by pointing at a subject
- Make the mask real time visible and allow for manually editing with the brush, a classical brush and/or 'AI' brush (see e.g. the masking features of Topaz photo AI).

Yes, those would be worthwhile, and it's true that PL hasn't improved in this area for a long time, while other products have made big strides. Of course, it's possible that PL7 already includes enhancements in this area — I'm sure it's something many others have been asking for.

Viewing i) the DeepPrime (XD) window ii) full image viewing

i) the DeepPrime viewing window
DeepPrime (XD) is a key reason to use PL, it is may be the best NR available on the market. Also the fine tuning - strength and (XD) noise model - is very much appreciated.
However, in the current viewing set up of PL6 the window is much too small to evaluate the impact of the (fine) tuning of the noise model.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
- Implement a user option to enhance the image 100/200% AND
- and a user option to enlarge the NR window; users with a less powerful GPU could stick at the current size, while other users could select a larger window.

ii) Full image viewing
In the current PL6 set up when an image is viewed full size the sharpness is not representative. Only if you crop the viewing to about 80% one can evaluate sharpness. This makes editing (e.g. adjusting color/tone and sharpening) complicated: you have to jump back and forward again between full view and cropped view.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
- Implement (a user option) to view the full image in full sharpness applied.

With NR as well? If not, what's the point? And if you do fully process the image to see the preview, you might as well save that version in a file.

Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

Although I appreciate the SmartView feature in PL6 I also use the Selective Tone sliders

I wonder if you're making enough use of DxO Smart Lighting (not Smartview, which is not a PL feature)? What range do you typically use?

In the present set up of PL6 I find the four Selective Tone sliders are overlapping far too much: e.g. the Blacks slider is also heavily influencing shadows and midtones as is the Shadow Slider. Actually the Blacks slider is impacting the whole image and so does the Highlights slider.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
Make the impact of the Selective tone sliders much more discriminative: Highlights only highlights, blacks only black, etc.

There is no chance of any change in this area, as it would be incompatible with previous releases. Millions of user images would look different when viewed/edited in such a modified release. So DxO will keep PLn compatible with previous PL release, not copy C1.

If so i hope dxo is as brave to confirm this so people can make up their own minds.

Why would you expect DxO to announce that it won't be deliberately making incompatible changes to how its software works? Surely that's what's expected anyway?

Err no dont try to put words into my mouth. If dxo cant make changes without making it incompatible then they should come out and say it. Or if they cant, wont be making a change then they should say.

In any case im sure they could introduce a legacy mode to switch between the new and old method or convert the old settings to the new. No need to break anything.

Converting the old images to the new method would be impossible. That rules it out.

Nobody is expecting images to be converted.. you are again adding words. i said convert "settings" so your old settings are converted to the new tool and your image looks the same. Anyway, im sure dxo can come up with their own ideas on how to achieve this, its not my job.

Many are not yet or fully invested in dxo so improved tools would benefit dxo and new users.

Its not about copying C1 or any other tools, they work fine and so should dxo. You have to admit, the tone sliders do not work effectively, they literally do not do what they say as the op has explained. e.g. Blacks do not just effect blacks...

I'm happy with the way it works now, and would not welcome a change.

Thats fine but you are not everyone and if they can come up with something better then why not.

In any case, I prefer the smooth way that PL works now, and would vote against any change.

Why don't you simply use the Tone curve to accomplish what you want?

DXO curve tool also needs significant improvement...

In what way?

No underlying rgb or luma histogram so you can see the part of the image tone you want to change

No way to pick a curve point from the image

No Coordinates

Cant save curve presets.

It also works a bit oddly

If you agree with one or more of these suggestions for improvement, please also write to DxO. May be that works....

Nothing can affect PL7 at this stage. And suggestions now might only influence PL8 if DxO was already considering something similar.

I personally think the tone tools are dxo biggest issue that would deter a new user.

Really??? Surely not supporting their camera would be a much bigger issue? Or not having advanced making? Or the slow export speed of DP XD? Or the weak DAM? Or the shortage of training videos?

Camera support is ongoing and happens

Advanced masking is a nice to have but cant be compared basic tone control

Slow export is determined by hardware mainly and compared to other tools of its nature isnt so bad.

Given that most users don't use the Smart Lighting control properly, I'd say that user training is a bigger issue than the tone controls.

Maybe they should rename it, Not so smart lighting control and offer some smarter tone controls.

 

[IanYorke]

The following (here shown in a slightly shortened version) I have sent to DxO to consider for a future version, hopefully PL7.

It's much too late to change PL7. It's already in beta test, and there won't be any changes to its features. The chances are that even PL8's features are already largely determined already.

My main reasons to like PL are i) the very good NR, DeepPrime (XD) including options to fine tune, ii) the optical/distortion correction and iii) the control point/line technology. I would like to stick to PL, because I find the route via a DNG imported in other s/w (like C1) too complicated.

But, I think a few things should change to keep me at PL as my main post processing s/w. So, I wrote to DxO support desk.

The three features that need improvement (my personal opinion) are

• (Auto)masking and subject recognition
• Viewing i) the DeepPrime (XD) window ii) full image viewing
• Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

(Auto)masking and subject recognition

My problem is with using the brush for both normal masking the auto masking/subject and shape recognition in general. The current PL set up is really out dated: i) The auto masking is very limited in use, ii) the effect of auto masking is not visible in real time.

My request for improvement in a future set (PL7?)
- Keep the good things: control points/lines
- Implement subject recognition, or even better, subject recognition by pointing at a subject
- Make the mask real time visible and allow for manually editing with the brush, a classical brush and/or 'AI' brush (see e.g. the masking features of Topaz photo AI).

Yes, those would be worthwhile, and it's true that PL hasn't improved in this area for a long time, while other products have made big strides. Of course, it's possible that PL7 already includes enhancements in this area — I'm sure it's something many others have been asking for.

Viewing i) the DeepPrime (XD) window ii) full image viewing

i) the DeepPrime viewing window
DeepPrime (XD) is a key reason to use PL, it is may be the best NR available on the market. Also the fine tuning - strength and (XD) noise model - is very much appreciated.
However, in the current viewing set up of PL6 the window is much too small to evaluate the impact of the (fine) tuning of the noise model.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
- Implement a user option to enhance the image 100/200% AND
- and a user option to enlarge the NR window; users with a less powerful GPU could stick at the current size, while other users could select a larger window.

ii) Full image viewing
In the current PL6 set up when an image is viewed full size the sharpness is not representative. Only if you crop the viewing to about 80% one can evaluate sharpness. This makes editing (e.g. adjusting color/tone and sharpening) complicated: you have to jump back and forward again between full view and cropped view.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
- Implement (a user option) to view the full image in full sharpness applied.

With NR as well? If not, what's the point? And if you do fully process the image to see the preview, you might as well save that version in a file.

Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

Although I appreciate the SmartView feature in PL6 I also use the Selective Tone sliders

I wonder if you're making enough use of DxO Smart Lighting (not Smartview, which is not a PL feature)? What range do you typically use?

In the present set up of PL6 I find the four Selective Tone sliders are overlapping far too much: e.g. the Blacks slider is also heavily influencing shadows and midtones as is the Shadow Slider. Actually the Blacks slider is impacting the whole image and so does the Highlights slider.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
Make the impact of the Selective tone sliders much more discriminative: Highlights only highlights, blacks only black, etc.

There is no chance of any change in this area, as it would be incompatible with previous releases. Millions of user images would look different when viewed/edited in such a modified release. So DxO will keep PLn compatible with previous PL release, not copy C1. In any case, I prefer the smooth way that PL works now, and would vote against any change.

Why don't you simply use the Tone curve to accomplish what you want?

If you agree with one or more of these suggestions for improvement, please also write to DxO. May be that works....

Nothing can affect PL7 at this stage. And suggestions now might only influence PL8 if DxO was already considering something similar.

The issues with DXO's (UN)Selective Tone controls are long standing and improvements have been asked for on the DXO forum for many years.

It would actually be quite simple for DXO to provide enhanced selective tone controls that target the relevant areas without impacting other tonal areas. You apply the new tonal algorithms to the sliders and fixed. Now you, (one option) hold down the Control key (Win) and move the sliders and you have the old broad tonal shifts. Backward compatible, everyone gains, no one loses.

The real question is "why, after all these years, doesn't DXO provide enhanced selective tone controls?"

Ian

 

[IanYorke]

DXO curve tool also needs significant improvement...

In what way?

No underlying rgb or luma histogram so you can see the part of the image tone you want to change

No way to pick a curve point from the image

No Coordinates

Cant save curve presets.

It also works a bit oddly

You can add to those issues:

Very small UI, that becomes even more difficult to use if you use curves to accomplish what a Levels tool would do, ie set the black and white points and stretch the tonal range, then the curve tool is even more difficult to use.

To put the DXO curve tool into perspective, even the curves tool in the free Faststone Image Viewer has a tool to allow you to pick a tone on the image to adjust and the original image histogram behind it.

One of the biggest issues for me, is that the tone curve can only be used globally, even LR allows local use of the curve control.

Ian

 

[Digital Nigel]

DXO curve tool also needs significant improvement...

In what way?

No underlying rgb or luma histogram so you can see the part of the image tone you want to change

No way to pick a curve point from the image

No Coordinates

Cant save curve presets.

It also works a bit oddly

You can add to those issues:

Very small UI, that becomes even more difficult to use if you use curves to accomplish what a Levels tool would do, ie set the black and white points and stretch the tonal range, then the curve tool is even more difficult to use.

To put the DXO curve tool into perspective, even the curves tool in the free Faststone Image Viewer has a tool to allow you to pick a tone on the image to adjust and the original image histogram behind it.

One of the biggest issues for me, is that the tone curve can only be used globally, even LR allows local use of the curve control.

That also applies to the HSL wheel, which be much more useful if it could be used in local adjustments.

 

[KoolKool]

yes, i agree with op!

 

[Ab S]

...

Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

Although I appreciate the SmartView feature in PL6 I also use the Selective Tone sliders

In the present set up of PL6 I find the four Selective Tone sliders are overlapping far too much: e.g. the Blacks slider is also heavily influencing shadows and midtones as is the Shadow Slider. Actually the Blacks slider is impacting the whole image and so does the Highlights slider.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
Make the impact of the Selective tone sliders much more discriminative: Highlights only highlights, blacks only black, etc.

In this tutorial it is acknowledged that the Selective Tone sliders work 'differently' than competing s/w https://tutodxo.com/en/selective-tone/ (have a look)

"The lack of a sensitivity setting for this behavior generates criticism. Some users, used to other software, find the overlap between tones too great, making the image look bland."

and

"A first solution to counter this overlap is to use the Selective Tone and Global Contrast together."

That makes a complicated procedure (but I will give it a try, I am retired and have time to play ). Indeed the addition of a 'sensitivity' slider, as suggested in the tutorial, to define the smoothness/sharpness to transitions of the selective tones would be a good solution for the personal use of the Selective Tone sliders.

 

[Digital Nigel]

...

Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

Although I appreciate the SmartView feature in PL6 I also use the Selective Tone sliders

In the present set up of PL6 I find the four Selective Tone sliders are overlapping far too much: e.g. the Blacks slider is also heavily influencing shadows and midtones as is the Shadow Slider. Actually the Blacks slider is impacting the whole image and so does the Highlights slider.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
Make the impact of the Selective tone sliders much more discriminative: Highlights only highlights, blacks only black, etc.

In this tutorial it is acknowledged that the Selective Tone sliders work 'differently' than competing s/w https://tutodxo.com/en/selective-tone/ (have a look)

"The lack of a sensitivity setting for this behavior generates criticism. Some users, used to other software, find the overlap between tones too great, making the image look bland."

and

"A first solution to counter this overlap is to use the Selective Tone and Global Contrast together."

That makes a complicated procedure (but I will give it a try, I am retired and have time to play ). Indeed the addition of a 'sensitivity' slider, as suggested in the tutorial, to define the smoothness/sharpness to transitions of the selective tones would be a good solution for the personal use of the Selective Tone sliders.

Yes, a sensitivity slider could be a neat way of keeping compatibility while allowing narrower tonal ranges to be adjusted. The current behaviour could be the default position for the new slider, so existing users don't see any forced changes.

 

[Ab S]

...

Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

Although I appreciate the SmartView feature in PL6 I also use the Selective Tone sliders

In the present set up of PL6 I find the four Selective Tone sliders are overlapping far too much: e.g. the Blacks slider is also heavily influencing shadows and midtones as is the Shadow Slider. Actually the Blacks slider is impacting the whole image and so does the Highlights slider.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
Make the impact of the Selective tone sliders much more discriminative: Highlights only highlights, blacks only black, etc.

In this tutorial it is acknowledged that the Selective Tone sliders work 'differently' than competing s/w https://tutodxo.com/en/selective-tone/ (have a look)

"The lack of a sensitivity setting for this behavior generates criticism. Some users, used to other software, find the overlap between tones too great, making the image look bland."

and

"A first solution to counter this overlap is to use the Selective Tone and Global Contrast together."

That makes a complicated procedure (but I will give it a try, I am retired and have time to play ). Indeed the addition of a 'sensitivity' slider, as suggested in the tutorial, to define the smoothness/sharpness to transitions of the selective tones would be a good solution for the personal use of the Selective Tone sliders.

Another point of 'improvement' would be the addition of the Fine Contrast slider of FilmPack into PL Elite. I don't need all the analogue film simulations, but Fine Contrast would be desirable in PL (and has not so much to do with film simulation).

"Here are some other procedures for adjusting overexposed areas and restoring contrast. The Fine Contrast (FC) sliders from the FilmPack Elite plug-in are more effective at removing clipping than their Selective Tone (ST) namesakes."

 

[Digital Nigel]

...

Overlap of Selective Tone sliders

Although I appreciate the SmartView feature in PL6 I also use the Selective Tone sliders

In the present set up of PL6 I find the four Selective Tone sliders are overlapping far too much: e.g. the Blacks slider is also heavily influencing shadows and midtones as is the Shadow Slider. Actually the Blacks slider is impacting the whole image and so does the Highlights slider.

=> Request for improvement (PL7?)
Make the impact of the Selective tone sliders much more discriminative: Highlights only highlights, blacks only black, etc.

In this tutorial it is acknowledged that the Selective Tone sliders work 'differently' than competing s/w https://tutodxo.com/en/selective-tone/ (have a look)

"The lack of a sensitivity setting for this behavior generates criticism. Some users, used to other software, find the overlap between tones too great, making the image look bland."

and

"A first solution to counter this overlap is to use the Selective Tone and Global Contrast together."

That makes a complicated procedure (but I will give it a try, I am retired and have time to play ). Indeed the addition of a 'sensitivity' slider, as suggested in the tutorial, to define the smoothness/sharpness to transitions of the selective tones would be a good solution for the personal use of the Selective Tone sliders.

Another point of 'improvement' would be the addition of the Fine Contrast slider of FilmPack into PL Elite. I don't need all the analogue film simulations, but Fine Contrast would be desirable in PL (and has not so much to do with film simulation).

"Here are some other procedures for adjusting overexposed areas and restoring contrast. The Fine Contrast (FC) sliders from the FilmPack Elite plug-in are more effective at removing clipping than their Selective Tone (ST) namesakes."

FilmPack turns on lots of PL features that are nothing to do with film simulations. And the number might grow as it appears that there will be a new FP release along with PL7.

 

[Ab S]

FilmPack turns on lots of PL features that are nothing to do with film simulations. And the number might grow as it appears that there will be a new FP release along with PL7.

..so it would be more logical to integrate these features into PL6 Elite version. Anyway I will wait for the release of PL7 and see what it includes and then decide to whether to buy (the new release of) FP on top of PL Elite.

 

[Digital Nigel]

FilmPack turns on lots of PL features that are nothing to do with film simulations. And the number might grow as it appears that there will be a new FP release along with PL7.

..so it would be more logical to integrate these features into PL6 Elite version.

They already are fully integrated into PL Elite. You just didn't pay to turn them on. The Elite edition is only one step above the basic edition. There are two more steps above it.

In effect, the full version of PL requires both VP and FP. They both unlock important tools that are already built into PL.

Anyway I will wait for the release of PL7 and see what it includes and then decide to whether to buy (the new release of) FP on top of PL Elite.

Yes, I have no idea what the new features might be.