MK II dynamic range?

[MS50]

I don't post much because my questions are mostly boring, I'm so boring that I even stopped talking to myself! LOL. BUT I do follow all you people on this forum every day (probably more than I should) and I really enjoy you and learn alot from you. That said here is another groaner for you. I went to Yosemite last week with my brother-in-law for a shoot. Him with his EOS elan film camera and me with my 10D (waiting on MKII). Both had L lenses, tripods and polarizers and did all kinds of shooting alot of the same exposures. Yesterday we compared work (both had them printed 4x6 at Costco). It was asthough we went to two different places or on different days. His shots covered everything from shadows to BLUE Sky, my shots either had blue sky and black shadowed areas or good shadows and WHITE sky. Even with shadow highlight in CS mine don't compare. Is the MK II going to be the same, is it just digital or is it me or what? Totally lost this time. Suggestions? Thanks in advance.

MS50

 

[Daffy_Duck]

The Mark II will be roughly the same in the DR department. Supposedly it is a little better than the 1D but it's probably not that noticable especially compared to film.

I don't post much because my questions are mostly boring, I'm so
boring that I even stopped talking to myself! LOL. BUT I do follow
all you people on this forum every day (probably more than I
should) and I really enjoy you and learn alot from you. That said
here is another groaner for you. I went to Yosemite last week with
my brother-in-law for a shoot. Him with his EOS elan film camera
and me with my 10D (waiting on MKII). Both had L lenses, tripods
and polarizers and did all kinds of shooting alot of the same
exposures. Yesterday we compared work (both had them printed 4x6 at
Costco). It was asthough we went to two different places or on
different days. His shots covered everything from shadows to BLUE
Sky, my shots either had blue sky and black shadowed areas or good
shadows and WHITE sky. Even with shadow highlight in CS mine don't
compare. Is the MK II going to be the same, is it just digital or
is it me or what? Totally lost this time. Suggestions? Thanks in
advance.

MS50

 

[Hej]

I don't claim to be an expert, and I can't point you to the thread I read this in, but I remember something like this; The 1D mk II will have 11 stops of dynamic range, which is comparable to film. This person may not have been right, and I may not be remembering it accurately, but I do specifically recal that the DR on the mark II will be close to (but not quite) that of film.

--
I see your schwartz is as big as mine.

 

[ioannis]

I think you are making a very good point as in digital vs film dynamic range but the are dynamic range actions for photoshop at

http://www.atncentral.com

if you dont want to bother with digital blending at

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/digital-blending.shtml

I doubt that the DigicII/CMOS combo was geared towards better dynamic range as Canon knows this hasn't stopped people from going crazy over digital/

--
Yiannis

Show them Amato !!

 

[John-G]

I suspect your brother-in-law was using print film ? Print film has incredible range. That is why so many folks get good prints at the mini-lab from crappy shots. Digital is more like slide film, very narrow exposure latitude. I still don't regret giving up film a couple years ago.

I don't post much because my questions are mostly boring, I'm so
boring that I even stopped talking to myself! LOL. BUT I do follow
all you people on this forum every day (probably more than I
should) and I really enjoy you and learn alot from you. That said
here is another groaner for you. I went to Yosemite last week with
my brother-in-law for a shoot. Him with his EOS elan film camera
and me with my 10D (waiting on MKII). Both had L lenses, tripods
and polarizers and did all kinds of shooting alot of the same
exposures. Yesterday we compared work (both had them printed 4x6 at
Costco). It was asthough we went to two different places or on
different days. His shots covered everything from shadows to BLUE
Sky, my shots either had blue sky and black shadowed areas or good
shadows and WHITE sky. Even with shadow highlight in CS mine don't
compare. Is the MK II going to be the same, is it just digital or
is it me or what? Totally lost this time. Suggestions? Thanks in
advance.

MS50

 

[greentoe]

I don't claim to be an expert, and I can't point you to the thread
I read this in, but I remember something like this; The 1D mk II
will have 11 stops of dynamic range, which is comparable to film. [snip]

No. According to CW (over in the RG forums) the MkII has over 9 stops of DR. That could be as small as 9.01 or as big as 9.49 (I'm assuming if it was 9.5 or more he would have rounded up That of course is a lab measurement. And, getting everything out of those 12 bits! In practice, especially if you are taking JPEGs straight out of camera, you wont see that.

Nevertheless, I'd take a MkII over most slide film anyday. However, compared to something like Kodak Gold 100 any DSLR will fall short.

Most comments I see about DR and digicams on these type of forums are people commenting on the resulting contrast after the application of the non-linear curves done to map the sensor data to an output value (whether 8 or 12 bit.) Probably not the best way to judge a sensor IMO.

BTW, on the "expert" thing, don't worry, few people here could even be considered close to that. The few I've read messages from have been pretty much chased away by all the clatter....

-gt

 

[Robert Hurwitz141095]

I have owned a 1D since it came out , now am a proud owner of the MarkII

The problem with the 1D was that it tended to blow out the highlights, in order to get any detail in the shadow areas. I tend to shoot surfing which is a real test for exposure to hold both the shadows and not blow the highlights.

I posted the first few shots ( nothing artistic from the MarkII) which demonstrates the tonal or dynamic range.

see
http://www.pbase.com/raddad

which has some fllash examples of the MarkII with the 550ex and 50 1.4 lens.
, all I can say is its a pleasure not having to fight under exposure on these.

The surf shots I just threw up yesterday to demonstrate the tonal or dynamice range I am looking for. These are sharpened for print output at 300 DPI glossy, so if they look a little "chunky" please understand, they print beautifully.

I don't post much because my questions are mostly boring, I'm so
boring that I even stopped talking to myself! LOL. BUT I do follow
all you people on this forum every day (probably more than I
should) and I really enjoy you and learn alot from you. That said
here is another groaner for you. I went to Yosemite last week with
my brother-in-law for a shoot. Him with his EOS elan film camera
and me with my 10D (waiting on MKII). Both had L lenses, tripods
and polarizers and did all kinds of shooting alot of the same
exposures. Yesterday we compared work (both had them printed 4x6 at
Costco). It was asthough we went to two different places or on
different days. His shots covered everything from shadows to BLUE
Sky, my shots either had blue sky and black shadowed areas or good
shadows and WHITE sky. Even with shadow highlight in CS mine don't
compare. Is the MK II going to be the same, is it just digital or
is it me or what? Totally lost this time. Suggestions? Thanks in
advance.

MS50

--
Robert Hurwitz

 

[skimmel]

I think this is a great question. Thanks for posting it. One I've had for myself recently as well (as I have shot films for years and recently started doing digital).

While I don't have an answer, I appreciate the answers posted so far and look forward to learning more. I know that Fuji had made a point of saying that their new S3 will have improved dynamic range, but obviously who knows yet.

I'd be very interested in seeing comparisons of the MKII with other canons (including 10D, which is what I own currently).

I don't post much because my questions are mostly boring, I'm so
boring that I even stopped talking to myself! LOL. BUT I do follow
all you people on this forum every day (probably more than I
should) and I really enjoy you and learn alot from you. That said
here is another groaner for you. I went to Yosemite last week with
my brother-in-law for a shoot. Him with his EOS elan film camera
and me with my 10D (waiting on MKII). Both had L lenses, tripods
and polarizers and did all kinds of shooting alot of the same
exposures. Yesterday we compared work (both had them printed 4x6 at
Costco). It was asthough we went to two different places or on
different days. His shots covered everything from shadows to BLUE
Sky, my shots either had blue sky and black shadowed areas or good
shadows and WHITE sky. Even with shadow highlight in CS mine don't
compare. Is the MK II going to be the same, is it just digital or
is it me or what? Totally lost this time. Suggestions? Thanks in
advance.

MS50

 

[Guy Mancuso]

While I don't have an answer, I appreciate the answers posted so
far and look forward to learning more. I know that Fuji had made a
point of saying that their new S3 will have improved dynamic range,
but obviously who knows yet.

I'd be very interested in seeing comparisons of the MKII with other
canons (including 10D, which is what I own currently).

I don't post much because my questions are mostly boring, I'm so
boring that I even stopped talking to myself! LOL. BUT I do follow
all you people on this forum every day (probably more than I
should) and I really enjoy you and learn alot from you. That said
here is another groaner for you. I went to Yosemite last week with
my brother-in-law for a shoot. Him with his EOS elan film camera
and me with my 10D (waiting on MKII). Both had L lenses, tripods
and polarizers and did all kinds of shooting alot of the same
exposures. Yesterday we compared work (both had them printed 4x6 at
Costco). It was asthough we went to two different places or on
different days. His shots covered everything from shadows to BLUE
Sky, my shots either had blue sky and black shadowed areas or good
shadows and WHITE sky. Even with shadow highlight in CS mine don't
compare. Is the MK II going to be the same, is it just digital or
is it me or what? Totally lost this time. Suggestions? Thanks in
advance.

MS50

Here from Chuck

Chuck, You stated the 1D-MkII sensor has a dynamic range of about 9 f-stops. How does this compare with the 1Ds, old 1D and 10D as far as dynamic range?

The EOS-1D Mark II has the best dynamic range among the 4 cameras you've listed.

What is the dynamic range of the 1Ds, 1D and 10D?

More than 8 stops but less than 9. There are slight variations according to model, but they are insignificant.

How does Canon determine this? Do you shot an image at f/8 then go 4 stops down from there and 4 stops up past f/8?

Canon Inc. shoots accurately exposed RAW files at the base-level ISO of the camera and measures dynamic range from a linear conversion of the RAW data. Further details of the measurement procedure are unavailable. Note that effective dynamic range when images are processed to a standard tone curve may be less than the total dynamic range of the sensor itself.

--------------------
Chuck Westfall
Director/Technical Information Dept.
Camera Division/Canon U.S.A., Inc.

--
GUY

 

[Guy Mancuso]

While I don't have an answer, I appreciate the answers posted so
far and look forward to learning more. I know that Fuji had made a
point of saying that their new S3 will have improved dynamic range,
but obviously who knows yet.

I'd be very interested in seeing comparisons of the MKII with other
canons (including 10D, which is what I own currently).

I don't post much because my questions are mostly boring, I'm so
boring that I even stopped talking to myself! LOL. BUT I do follow
all you people on this forum every day (probably more than I
should) and I really enjoy you and learn alot from you. That said
here is another groaner for you. I went to Yosemite last week with
my brother-in-law for a shoot. Him with his EOS elan film camera
and me with my 10D (waiting on MKII). Both had L lenses, tripods
and polarizers and did all kinds of shooting alot of the same
exposures. Yesterday we compared work (both had them printed 4x6 at
Costco). It was asthough we went to two different places or on
different days. His shots covered everything from shadows to BLUE
Sky, my shots either had blue sky and black shadowed areas or good
shadows and WHITE sky. Even with shadow highlight in CS mine don't
compare. Is the MK II going to be the same, is it just digital or
is it me or what? Totally lost this time. Suggestions? Thanks in
advance.

MS50

Here from Chuck

Chuck, You stated the 1D-MkII sensor has a dynamic range of about 9 f-stops. How does this compare with the 1Ds, old 1D and 10D as far as dynamic range?

The EOS-1D Mark II has the best dynamic range among the 4 cameras
you've listed.

What is the dynamic range of the 1Ds, 1D and 10D?

More than 8 stops but less than 9. There are slight variations
according to model, but they are insignificant.

How does Canon determine this? Do you shot an image at f/8 then go 4 stops down from there and 4 stops up past f/8?

Canon Inc. shoots accurately exposed RAW files at the base-level
ISO of the camera and measures dynamic range from a linear
conversion of the RAW data. Further details of the measurement
procedure are unavailable. Note that effective dynamic range when
images are processed to a standard tone curve may be less than the
total dynamic range of the sensor itself.

--------------------
Chuck Westfall
Director/Technical Information Dept.
Camera Division/Canon U.S.A., Inc.

--
GUY

--I should ad this was posted ahwile back on Rob's Forum
GUY

 

[Alex 31415]

You don’t need any lab -- you can measure the camera’s noise properties, dynamic range, ISO sensitivity, and some more at your kitchen. You need Photoshop, tripod, camera and 9 special test shoots of an object like a gray card.

If there is a volunteer to make it and to put a stop to idle talks -- I’ll publish the technology and results. I need only 100x100 crops.

BR
Alex

 

[greentoe]

Thanks Guy for the actual post, I was too lazy to look it up. I could have swore he said 9 in another post, but guess I'm wrong.....

Here from Chuck

Chuck, You stated the 1D-MkII sensor has a dynamic range of about 9 f-stops. How does this compare with the 1Ds, old 1D and 10D as far as dynamic range?

The EOS-1D Mark II has the best dynamic range among the 4 cameras
you've listed.

What is the dynamic range of the 1Ds, 1D and 10D?

More than 8 stops but less than 9. There are slight variations
according to model, but they are insignificant.

How does Canon determine this? Do you shot an image at f/8 then go 4 stops down from there and 4 stops up past f/8?

Canon Inc. shoots accurately exposed RAW files at the base-level
ISO of the camera and measures dynamic range from a linear
conversion of the RAW data. Further details of the measurement
procedure are unavailable. Note that effective dynamic range when
images are processed to a standard tone curve may be less than the
total dynamic range of the sensor itself.

--------------------
Chuck Westfall
Director/Technical Information Dept.
Camera Division/Canon U.S.A., Inc.

--
GUY

--I should ad this was posted ahwile back on Rob's Forum
GUY

 

[Robert Hurwitz141095]

Tell me what shots and I'll give it a shot ( pun intended)

You don’t need any lab -- you can measure the camera’s
noise properties, dynamic range, ISO sensitivity, and some more at
your kitchen. You need Photoshop, tripod, camera and 9 special test
shoots of an object like a gray card.
If there is a volunteer to make it and to put a stop to idle talks
-- I’ll publish the technology and results. I need only
100x100 crops.

BR
Alex

--
Robert Hurwitz

 

[1Dsshoota]

A graduated neutral density filter is an old tool, but it's still a relevant one for digital, although few people actually use them IMHO, preferring to use post processing to try to regain detail. They work & can save a lot of photoshop time...

I don't post much because my questions are mostly boring, I'm so
boring that I even stopped talking to myself! LOL. BUT I do follow
all you people on this forum every day (probably more than I
should) and I really enjoy you and learn alot from you. That said
here is another groaner for you. I went to Yosemite last week with
my brother-in-law for a shoot. Him with his EOS elan film camera
and me with my 10D (waiting on MKII). Both had L lenses, tripods
and polarizers and did all kinds of shooting alot of the same
exposures. Yesterday we compared work (both had them printed 4x6 at
Costco). It was asthough we went to two different places or on
different days. His shots covered everything from shadows to BLUE
Sky, my shots either had blue sky and black shadowed areas or good
shadows and WHITE sky. Even with shadow highlight in CS mine don't
compare. Is the MK II going to be the same, is it just digital or
is it me or what? Totally lost this time. Suggestions? Thanks in
advance.

MS50

--



http://www.pbase.com/image/27417053
http://www.pbase.com/foodphoto
1Ds/10D/30E/5x4/I HAVE A MKII A Pentax 67 MKII
Steve

 

[MS50]

I'm sorry it looks like there are responses to my question, 14 of them at this moment but when I click on the thread and go to it there is no thread, no responses. So if you are asking me questions I'm sorry I can't answer. Actually some times this thread doesn't come up at all until I refresh the screen.

MS50

I don't post much because my questions are mostly boring, I'm so
boring that I even stopped talking to myself! LOL. BUT I do follow
all you people on this forum every day (probably more than I
should) and I really enjoy you and learn alot from you. That said
here is another groaner for you. I went to Yosemite last week with
my brother-in-law for a shoot. Him with his EOS elan film camera
and me with my 10D (waiting on MKII). Both had L lenses, tripods
and polarizers and did all kinds of shooting alot of the same
exposures. Yesterday we compared work (both had them printed 4x6 at
Costco). It was asthough we went to two different places or on
different days. His shots covered everything from shadows to BLUE
Sky, my shots either had blue sky and black shadowed areas or good
shadows and WHITE sky. Even with shadow highlight in CS mine don't
compare. Is the MK II going to be the same, is it just digital or
is it me or what? Totally lost this time. Suggestions? Thanks in
advance.

MS50

 

[James McPeak]

If you're talking about slide film, you'll have about the same dynamic range as on digital. Landscape photographers have long known this. That's why serious photographers and the best landscape photography is only done during lower-contrast times of the day, or steps are taken to compress the dynamic range of a scene (ie. using a neutral density filter, etc.)

If you're talking about print film, that beats both slide film and digital for dynamic range.

But at least with digital, you can do a lot of tricks with merging images, increasing/decreasing saturation, etc. that you can't do with slide film. Just make sure you record all the information in the scene (ie, done blow the highlights), so you can have it to work with later.

I don't post much because my questions are mostly boring, I'm so
boring that I even stopped talking to myself! LOL. BUT I do follow
all you people on this forum every day (probably more than I
should) and I really enjoy you and learn alot from you. That said
here is another groaner for you. I went to Yosemite last week with
my brother-in-law for a shoot. Him with his EOS elan film camera
and me with my 10D (waiting on MKII). Both had L lenses, tripods
and polarizers and did all kinds of shooting alot of the same
exposures. Yesterday we compared work (both had them printed 4x6 at
Costco). It was asthough we went to two different places or on
different days. His shots covered everything from shadows to BLUE
Sky, my shots either had blue sky and black shadowed areas or good
shadows and WHITE sky. Even with shadow highlight in CS mine don't
compare. Is the MK II going to be the same, is it just digital or
is it me or what? Totally lost this time. Suggestions? Thanks in
advance.

MS50

 

[MS50]

I finally got to the thread. Thanks so much for all the info. He was using low iso print film Fuji provia?, it was pro film and it was nice (Ansel-ish looking tones). I forgot to say that I didn't do that much in CS with these images other than covert them as shot. I am a true believer in RAW and I am sure that developing several images in CS with different curves in raw and then blending would help but they still wouldn't look like his. Now today he scanned his negs and they still have more in them than mine, how does that work? I'm not whinning I love my 10D, ALOT. Just trying to learn and I hope I'm not getting on anyone's nerves because I really learn alot from you people and I hope that is what this is all about. I am in agony waiting for my MK II. Thanks.

MS50

If you're talking about print film, that beats both slide film and
digital for dynamic range.

But at least with digital, you can do a lot of tricks with merging
images, increasing/decreasing saturation, etc. that you can't do
with slide film. Just make sure you record all the information in
the scene (ie, done blow the highlights), so you can have it to
work with later.

I don't post much because my questions are mostly boring, I'm so
boring that I even stopped talking to myself! LOL. BUT I do follow
all you people on this forum every day (probably more than I
should) and I really enjoy you and learn alot from you. That said
here is another groaner for you. I went to Yosemite last week with
my brother-in-law for a shoot. Him with his EOS elan film camera
and me with my 10D (waiting on MKII). Both had L lenses, tripods
and polarizers and did all kinds of shooting alot of the same
exposures. Yesterday we compared work (both had them printed 4x6 at
Costco). It was asthough we went to two different places or on
different days. His shots covered everything from shadows to BLUE
Sky, my shots either had blue sky and black shadowed areas or good
shadows and WHITE sky. Even with shadow highlight in CS mine don't
compare. Is the MK II going to be the same, is it just digital or
is it me or what? Totally lost this time. Suggestions? Thanks in
advance.

MS50

 

[RickS170293]

Any relation to Bruce? Where are the surf shots taken @?

Rick

You don’t need any lab -- you can measure the camera’s
noise properties, dynamic range, ISO sensitivity, and some more at
your kitchen. You need Photoshop, tripod, camera and 9 special test
shoots of an object like a gray card.
If there is a volunteer to make it and to put a stop to idle talks
-- I’ll publish the technology and results. I need only
100x100 crops.

BR
Alex

--
Robert Hurwitz

 

[Robert Hurwitz141095]

If you mean Ron it's his brother, they were taken at Harbour House mostly

Rick

You don’t need any lab -- you can measure the camera’s
noise properties, dynamic range, ISO sensitivity, and some more at
your kitchen. You need Photoshop, tripod, camera and 9 special test
shoots of an object like a gray card.
If there is a volunteer to make it and to put a stop to idle talks
-- I’ll publish the technology and results. I need only
100x100 crops.

BR
Alex

--
Robert Hurwitz

--
Rad Dad

 

[Mr Majestyk]

I don't claim to be an expert, and I can't point you to the thread
I read this in, but I remember something like this; The 1D mk II
will have 11 stops of dynamic range, which is comparable to film. [snip]

No. According to CW (over in the RG forums) the MkII has over 9
stops of DR. That could be as small as 9.01 or as big as 9.49 (I'm
assuming if it was 9.5 or more he would have rounded up That
of course is a lab measurement. And, getting everything out of
those 12 bits! In practice, especially if you are taking JPEGs
straight out of camera, you wont see that.

Nevertheless, I'd take a MkII over most slide film anyday.
However, compared to something like Kodak Gold 100 any DSLR will
fall short.

Most comments I see about DR and digicams on these type of forums
are people commenting on the resulting contrast after the
application of the non-linear curves done to map the sensor data to
an output value (whether 8 or 12 bit.) Probably not the best way
to judge a sensor IMO.

BTW, on the "expert" thing, don't worry, few people here could even
be considered close to that. The few I've read messages from have
been pretty much chased away by all the clatter....

-gt

That same forum claims a 10D has 8 stops of DR and the real world experience shows this to be BS.