MACBOOK Pro: feature or drawback

[deednets]

The latest Macbooks I believe have soldered on SSDs and also RAM. My partner's Macbook Air packed up some time last year because the diagnostics said "faulty memory".

APPLE confirmed that and said the MAC was 4 years old so time to move on ... I wanted to get an exemption for the MAC as I found that RAM should not require you to replace a complete MAC. The answer was that if you want cutting edge technology, then you have to stay "current".

She replaced the MAC with another Macbook Air but wasn't happy.

When I tried to uplift the data from a PCI-E SSD in a 2016 Macbook Pro a couple of weeks ago I was successful in the end as I used an identical Macbook pro to get the data off. Some well meaning people told me how to deal with issues like these (backup before the case) but since a true Time machine wasn't available at the time all that was left was a second MBP.

Coming to my question here: I believe the SSDs are all soldered on now making it near impossible to get any data off when a logic board fails. Using a MAC as a dumb terminal with ALL data in some cloud would address this, but not for everyone.

A business customer of mine whose whole family used MACs since their dislike for Windows 98 will no longer be using those MBPs.

2 reasons here:

• The data and RAM issue as upgradable systems they simply found more compelling.
• The landfill issue to "recycle" a MAC after (like in the case of my partner) 4 years is hardly record breaking for reliability

Since I use both Windows and MAC, I have no stakes in eiterh system, but find any silly HP with RAM upgradable when prices come down as well as SSD options (M.2) more interesting.

So what's the average MAC user's take on this Solid-State policy?? (not I am not talking to that guy with the Porsche who simply has all the dosh in the World to pay out whatever is required!) ;-)

Deed

 

[William Carson]

The latest Macbooks I believe have soldered on SSDs and also RAM. My partner's Macbook Air packed up some time last year because the diagnostics said "faulty memory".

APPLE confirmed that and said the MAC was 4 years old so time to move on ... I wanted to get an exemption for the MAC as I found that RAM should not require you to replace a complete MAC. The answer was that if you want cutting edge technology, then you have to stay "current".

She replaced the MAC with another Macbook Air but wasn't happy.

When I tried to uplift the data from a PCI-E SSD in a 2016 Macbook Pro a couple of weeks ago I was successful in the end as I used an identical Macbook pro to get the data off. Some well meaning people told me how to deal with issues like these (backup before the case) but since a true Time machine wasn't available at the time all that was left was a second MBP.

Coming to my question here: I believe the SSDs are all soldered on now making it near impossible to get any data off when a logic board fails. Using a MAC as a dumb terminal with ALL data in some cloud would address this, but not for everyone.

A business customer of mine whose whole family used MACs since their dislike for Windows 98 will no longer be using those MBPs.

2 reasons here:

• The data and RAM issue as upgradable systems they simply found more compelling.
• The landfill issue to "recycle" a MAC after (like in the case of my partner) 4 years is hardly record breaking for reliability

Since I use both Windows and MAC, I have no stakes in eiterh system, but find any silly HP with RAM upgradable when prices come down as well as SSD options (M.2) more interesting.

So what's the average MAC user's take on this Solid-State policy?? (not I am not talking to that guy with the Porsche who simply has all the dosh in the World to pay out whatever is required!) ;-)

Deed

Of course there are very real advancements in the new Macbook pros that are worth keeping up with these latest products. BUT, this does not cancel what is not an advancement but something that not even Gil Amelio could have gotten away with. (He was in charge of Apple when things were almost caput for the Mac as a computer maker) A few folks on this site are going to go to the wall defending what is really a hopefully temporary phase of an overall design emphasis that is short sighted when mainstreet users of Mac laptops start feeling no other choice but to look elsewhere. That phase is soldered memory and SSDs (that more than anything else because of the size that may need to be increased with an upgraded SSD) and an -IMO- over emphasis on smaller is the future for all MBPs. All that said, I could be totally wrong. It does seem that either the MBPs need to be upgradeable by the user or a lifetime warranty should be standard for any purchase.

 

[Tom_N]

That phase is soldered memory and SSDs (that more than anything else because of the size that may need to be increased with an upgraded SSD) and an -IMO- over emphasis on smaller is the future for all MBPs.

Mac laptops have used soldered-in RAM since at least 2012, when the first Retina MBPs appeared. I suggest that if you are waiting for that "phase" to pass, you will be waiting a very long time.

 

[silentstorm]

So what's the average MAC user's take on this Solid-State policy?? (not I am not talking to that guy with the Porsche who simply has all the dosh in the World to pay out whatever is required!) ;-)

Deed

Not really sure what you are asking.

My 2011 Air changed logic board 4 times in 5 years. The last one was done by 3rd party repair shop. For me, it's not just the solid state policy, but also 3rd party repairs. The new imacs and laptops have a T2 chip that blocks out 3rd party repair , so going forward, I'm not buying anymore apple computers. For the record I don't use iphone or ipad so I'm not locked down by the walled garden, free to roam as I please.

My older mac laptops have their drives in external enclosure, still usable outside the life of a computer.

 

[William Carson]

That phase is soldered memory and SSDs (that more than anything else because of the size that may need to be increased with an upgraded SSD) and an -IMO- over emphasis on smaller is the future for all MBPs.

Mac laptops have used soldered-in RAM since at least 2012, when the first Retina MBPs appeared. I suggest that if you are waiting for that "phase" to pass, you will be waiting a very long time.

It is not so much the soldered RAM that is an issue but the soldered SSD. Most users will choose an adequate amount of RAM as it does not add much to the initial purchase cost but the high cost of the SSD really forces the buyer to choose what, over time is not an adequate size of SSD storage, So, for the buyer, an upgradable and not soldered SSD would be very helpful. At least upgradable by an apple approved technician or shop.

 

[IR1234]

So what's the average MAC user's take on this Solid-State policy?? (not I am not talking to that guy with the Porsche who simply has all the dosh in the World to pay out whatever is required!) ;-)

Deed

I'm not a fan of this soldered to the board ssd if I'm honest, but where the MBP is today is where everyone else will be in 5-10 years. So don't think for a moment this is just Apple doing it.

However, if your logic board dies, it's not the end of the world as they can easily be repaired and there are loads of outfits already doing this. And I'm not just talking about the 'reflow' guys, there are guys (and plenty of them) who will bring up schematics of the board and will spend a few minutes tracing the problem to a specific problem on the board. It's only when there is large amounts of physical damage to the board are they failing to get it working again. Pricing for a board repair isn't awful either, in the $200-300 mark from what I can tell.

 

[Leon Wittwer]

It is not so much the soldered RAM that is an issue but the soldered SSD. Most users will choose an adequate amount of RAM as it does not add much to the initial purchase cost but the high cost of the SSD really forces the buyer to choose what, over time is not an adequate size of SSD storage, So, for the buyer, an upgradable and not soldered SSD would be very helpful. At least upgradable by an apple approved technician or shop.

With increasing complexity of circuitry including bus speeds, etc., the use of sockets becomes increasingly problematic from a reliability point of view. I also doubt that not that many folks are into messing with their computers.

 

[deednets]

It is not so much the soldered RAM that is an issue but the soldered SSD. Most users will choose an adequate amount of RAM as it does not add much to the initial purchase cost but the high cost of the SSD really forces the buyer to choose what, over time is not an adequate size of SSD storage, So, for the buyer, an upgradable and not soldered SSD would be very helpful. At least upgradable by an apple approved technician or shop.

With increasing complexity of circuitry including bus speeds, etc., the use of sockets becomes increasingly problematic from a reliability point of view. I also doubt that not that many folks are into messing with their computers.

Just upgraded an x360 HP that I use for travel to 250 GB capacity. I have yet to see an M.2 equipped laptop fail.

But my partner’s soldered on RAM failed.

Deed

 

[deednets]

So what's the average MAC user's take on this Solid-State policy?? (not I am not talking to that guy with the Porsche who simply has all the dosh in the World to pay out whatever is required!) ;-)

Deed

I'm not a fan of this soldered to the board ssd if I'm honest, but where the MBP is today is where everyone else will be in 5-10 years. So don't think for a moment this is just Apple doing it.

However, if your logic board dies, it's not the end of the world as they can easily be repaired and there are loads of outfits already doing this. And I'm not just talking about the 'reflow' guys, there are guys (and plenty of them) who will bring up schematics of the board and will spend a few minutes tracing the problem to a specific problem on the board. It's only when there is large amounts of physical damage to the board are they failing to get it working again. Pricing for a board repair isn't awful either, in the $200-300 mark from what I can tell.

Loading…

www.theverge.com

Or maybe not. Note that in the Verge post there is a photo showing 2 M.2 SSD sockets. Those might hang around for a few years.

 

[photosen]

In essence Apple controls the components and usually has better quality, so you don't run into driver problems like with Windows or Linux.

Better quality doesn't mean cutting edge technology, on the contrary Macs usually lag with respect to the latest processors in particular. It doesn't mean better engineering or quality control either, as keyboards have been prone to failing in models since 2016, and now apparently some displays may also be failing .

The vast majority of PC users don't tinker, so Apple would rather have them send their products to the store for repair, and charge accordingly. I agree there is no reason why a four year old computer should be obsolete.

While other brands are much better with respect to hard drive and RAM upgrades, they haven't figured out how to wean themselves off Windows, the longest rolling catastrophe in history. Hopefully one day someone can think of a way of selling decent hardware and OS for about $1,000.

Solutions?

A. Spend as little as possible on a pre 2016 Mac. Some non retina macbook pros could be upgraded for HD and RAM. Make sure you don't have any electricity issues, and use a line conditioner.

B. Find a PC with decent hardware and spend some quality time configuring a Linux distro, in the US (usually cheaper than elsewhere) you can find something used and decent for between $500 - $1,000, the usual problem is poor quality displays for laptops.

 

[IR1234]

So what's the average MAC user's take on this Solid-State policy?? (not I am not talking to that guy with the Porsche who simply has all the dosh in the World to pay out whatever is required!) ;-)

Deed

I'm not a fan of this soldered to the board ssd if I'm honest, but where the MBP is today is where everyone else will be in 5-10 years. So don't think for a moment this is just Apple doing it.

However, if your logic board dies, it's not the end of the world as they can easily be repaired and there are loads of outfits already doing this. And I'm not just talking about the 'reflow' guys, there are guys (and plenty of them) who will bring up schematics of the board and will spend a few minutes tracing the problem to a specific problem on the board. It's only when there is large amounts of physical damage to the board are they failing to get it working again. Pricing for a board repair isn't awful either, in the $200-300 mark from what I can tell.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/12...mini-t2-chip-security-repair-replacement-tool

Or maybe not. Note that in the Verge post there is a photo showing 2 M.2 SSD sockets. Those might hang around for a few years.

I’m really not sure what t2 has to do with locking out general repairs. It could well lock out something like touchID sensors, but for general repairs I’m not seeing it.

If a resistor or capacitor needed replacing, how would the t2 chip even detect that a new one was installed? It can’t. If you have a voltage regulator thats gone, nope, not seeing it. If you have a connector to a chip gone bad or an interface connector that needs reseating, again, how is the t2 chip picking these things up, a track messed up that needs a jump wire? It can’t see any of these things.

So i’m not seeing what the end of the world screaming is all about.

 

[Tom_N]

That phase is soldered memory and SSDs (that more than anything else because of the size that may need to be increased with an upgraded SSD) and an -IMO- over emphasis on smaller is the future for all MBPs.

Mac laptops have used soldered-in RAM since at least 2012, when the first Retina MBPs appeared. I suggest that if you are waiting for that "phase" to pass, you will be waiting a very long time.

It is not so much the soldered RAM that is an issue but the soldered SSD. Most users will choose an adequate amount of RAM as it does not add much to the initial purchase cost but the high cost of the SSD really forces the buyer to choose what, over time is not an adequate size of SSD storage, So, for the buyer, an upgradable and not soldered SSD would be very helpful. At least upgradable by an apple approved technician or shop.

Although rMBP SSDs have never been officially upgradable, many of the earlier ones are on plug-in sticks. OWC now stocks upgrades for many of those types of sticks. So there might be some hope for getting Apple to go back to this type of arrangement.

Ideally they would use M.2 sockets with support for both PCIe and SATA, and with room enough for long SSD sticks. Based on current maximum SSD capacities, the 13" rMBP could make do with one socket; the 15" rMBP would probably require two. To maintain high performance, the default SSD could be something like a Samsung 970 EVO [PRO].

Caveat: I don't know how T.2 encryption support interfaces with current flash chips and what sort of issues there might be getting it to work with removable SSDs.

 

[deednets]

In essence Apple controls the components and usually has better quality, so you don't run into driver problems like with Windows or Linux.

Better quality doesn't mean cutting edge technology, on the contrary Macs usually lag with respect to the latest processors in particular. It doesn't mean better engineering or quality control either, as keyboards have been prone to failing in models since 2016, and now apparently some displays may also be failing .

The vast majority of PC users don't tinker, so Apple would rather have them send their products to the store for repair, and charge accordingly. I agree there is no reason why a four year old computer should be obsolete.

While other brands are much better with respect to hard drive and RAM upgrades, they haven't figured out how to wean themselves off Windows, the longest rolling catastrophe in history. Hopefully one day someone can think of a way of selling decent hardware and OS for about $1,000.

Solutions?

A. Spend as little as possible on a pre 2016 Mac. Some non retina macbook pros could be upgraded for HD and RAM. Make sure you don't have any electricity issues, and use a line conditioner.

B. Find a PC with decent hardware and spend some quality time configuring a Linux distro, in the US (usually cheaper than elsewhere) you can find something used and decent for between $500 - $1,000, the usual problem is poor quality displays for laptops.

So Windows is a catastrophe in history?? When was the last time you actually used one?? The x360 HP I use when I travel boots up in 8 seconds runs Capture One 12 blazingly fast is upgradable, I can open the thing in less than 2 minutes and has an M.2 standard drive.

I could easily run 2 completely different system on this thing where a replacement of the OS content and the likes I could do in 5 minutes ... I actually have the second drive and could without any issues swap. On my Macbook Pro 2016 I can do the same, but drives aren't that easy to come by and much more expensive and when I upgrade those days will then be over. I need one for work, so don't have a choice but can't say I like it.

No idea where your somewhat antiquated Windows hate comes from, you are not by any chance one of those who writes Micro$oft?? As if MS was the greedy party in all this ;-)

Deed

 

[deednets]

That phase is soldered memory and SSDs (that more than anything else because of the size that may need to be increased with an upgraded SSD) and an -IMO- over emphasis on smaller is the future for all MBPs.

Mac laptops have used soldered-in RAM since at least 2012, when the first Retina MBPs appeared. I suggest that if you are waiting for that "phase" to pass, you will be waiting a very long time.

It is not so much the soldered RAM that is an issue but the soldered SSD. Most users will choose an adequate amount of RAM as it does not add much to the initial purchase cost but the high cost of the SSD really forces the buyer to choose what, over time is not an adequate size of SSD storage, So, for the buyer, an upgradable and not soldered SSD would be very helpful. At least upgradable by an apple approved technician or shop.

Although rMBP SSDs have never been officially upgradable, many of the earlier ones are on plug-in sticks. OWC now stocks upgrades for many of those types of sticks. So there might be some hope for getting Apple to go back to this type of arrangement.

Ideally they would use M.2 sockets with support for both PCIe and SATA, and with room enough for long SSD sticks. Based on current maximum SSD capacities, the 13" rMBP could make do with one socket; the 15" rMBP would probably require two. To maintain high performance, the default SSD could be something like a Samsung 970 EVO [PRO].

Caveat: I don't know how T.2 encryption support interfaces with current flash chips and what sort of issues there might be getting it to work with removable SSDs.

I sue one of those SAMSUNG 970s they are fast.

"Samsung 970 Evo 500GB M.2 (2280),NVMe SSD R/W(Max) 3,400MB/s/2,300MB/s, 370K/450K IOPS, 5 Years Warranty" ... we can get here in NZ for less than US$ 120.00 maybe for less in the US but not a bad price.

Here in NZ APPLE charges an extra NZ$ 350.00 to upgrade from a 128GB to a 256GB capacity. And still use an INTEL i5 Dual-Core chip.

Do you have any idea what this is??



Takne from here:

Loading…

www.theverge.com

Deed

 

[Tom_N]

Solutions?

A. Spend as little as possible on a pre 2016 Mac. Some non retina macbook pros could be upgraded for HD and RAM. Make sure you don't have any electricity issues, and use a line conditioner.

The 2012 non-Retina MBPs are your best bet there. Any earlier and you don't get USB 3. Apple sold the 13" 2012 non-Retina MBP for several years, so some examples might be a bit newer than the model year implies – and Apple might not consider that model to be "obsolete" just yet.

You'll have to give up a Retina screen, a PCI-e attached SSD, an 8th-generation Intel CPU (a.k.a. opportunity to get more CPU cores), the option to get 32 GB of RAM, UHD/4K and 5K video support, USB-C (Thunderbolt 3) ports, and a weight loss of 1.5 to 2 pounds. If you get anything other than a 13" 2012 non-Retina MBP, Apple will probably classify it as "obsolete" (meaning: they will offer neither hardware service nor repair parts).

So there are some tradeoffs.

 

[deednets]

So what's the average MAC user's take on this Solid-State policy?? (not I am not talking to that guy with the Porsche who simply has all the dosh in the World to pay out whatever is required!) ;-)

Deed

I'm not a fan of this soldered to the board ssd if I'm honest, but where the MBP is today is where everyone else will be in 5-10 years. So don't think for a moment this is just Apple doing it.

However, if your logic board dies, it's not the end of the world as they can easily be repaired and there are loads of outfits already doing this. And I'm not just talking about the 'reflow' guys, there are guys (and plenty of them) who will bring up schematics of the board and will spend a few minutes tracing the problem to a specific problem on the board. It's only when there is large amounts of physical damage to the board are they failing to get it working again. Pricing for a board repair isn't awful either, in the $200-300 mark from what I can tell.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/12...mini-t2-chip-security-repair-replacement-tool

Or maybe not. Note that in the Verge post there is a photo showing 2 M.2 SSD sockets. Those might hang around for a few years.

I’m really not sure what t2 has to do with locking out general repairs. It could well lock out something like touchID sensors, but for general repairs I’m not seeing it.

If a resistor or capacitor needed replacing, how would the t2 chip even detect that a new one was installed? It can’t. If you have a voltage regulator thats gone, nope, not seeing it. If you have a connector to a chip gone bad or an interface connector that needs reseating, again, how is the t2 chip picking these things up, a track messed up that needs a jump wire? It can’t see any of these things.

So i’m not seeing what the end of the world screaming is all about.

Dunno I needed to read out data from a 2016 PCI-E SSD where there doesn't seem to be any adapters around to connect to. Contacted people in China who are typically really switched on when it comes to adapters, enclosures etc but could not resource one. A feeble inquiry with APPLE made this a "data recovery" job starting at 700.00. Not the end of the world, but if (!!!) this had been any other standard it would have been a matter of what .. half an hour??

You think there might also be some protectionism at play here? I used another 2016 MBP in the end so was able to transfer the data. 2 issues here: the data wasn't safe (but might be in fingerprint/T2 equipped models) and it certainly wasn't a recovery job - a matter of semantics maybe - but when I save data from one drive to another I would hardly call it a "recovery operation" !

I have worked in IT for the last 22 years and have seen wild drives in APPLE 2012 15" retina MBPs (never to be seen again later on) iMACs on glass held in place by magnets (upgradable) to the latest ones upgradable with traditional RAM and SSD slots, but glued in (with actual glue?????) so am used to APPLE's policies there.

A good friend on mine has a MACBOOk pro 15" I think 2010 which can only be upgraded to El Capitan - but could easily be loaded with Windows 10 January 2019 version?? Side notes for sure, iPADs that only upgrade to iOS 9 but are otherwise ok, so what's not to like about all this??

I will roll over my current MBP next year, but can't say that I like their policy.

Deed

 

[deednets]

Solutions?

A. Spend as little as possible on a pre 2016 Mac. Some non retina macbook pros could be upgraded for HD and RAM. Make sure you don't have any electricity issues, and use a line conditioner.

The 2012 non-Retina MBPs are your best bet there. Any earlier and you don't get USB 3. Apple sold the 13" 2012 non-Retina MBP for several years, so some examples might be a bit newer than the model year implies – and Apple might not consider that model to be "obsolete" just yet.

You'll have to give up a Retina screen, a PCI-e attached SSD, an 8th-generation Intel CPU (a.k.a. opportunity to get more CPU cores), the option to get 32 GB of RAM, UHD/4K and 5K video support, USB-C (Thunderbolt 3) ports, and a weight loss of 1.5 to 2 pounds. If you get anything other than a 13" 2012 non-Retina MBP, Apple will probably classify it as "obsolete" (meaning: they will offer neither hardware service nor repair parts).

So there are some tradeoffs.

I have a 2012 MBP Retina here but the SSDs are somewhat exotic. Also one might consider that APPLE will only provide a current OS for maybe another 18 months or so. going by what MPB 2010 are going though at the moment.

So only buying time, but not a solution!

My MBP 512GB SSD (NOT an M.2!!!) sitting in an external enclosure here:





Deed

 

[Tom_N]

Here in NZ APPLE charges an extra NZ$ 350.00 to upgrade from a 128GB to a 256GB capacity. And still use an INTEL i5 Dual-Core chip.

in the current 13" rMBP lineup, Apple uses dual-core 7th-generation Intel CPUs in some machines, quad-core 8th-generation Intel CPUs in others. As for Core i5 vs. i7, I believe that i7s are a custom-order option.

 

[robgendreau]

I’m really not sure what t2 has to do with locking out general repairs. It could well lock out something like touchID sensors, but for general repairs I’m not seeing it.

If a resistor or capacitor needed replacing, how would the t2 chip even detect that a new one was installed? It can’t. If you have a voltage regulator thats gone, nope, not seeing it. If you have a connector to a chip gone bad or an interface connector that needs reseating, again, how is the t2 chip picking these things up, a track messed up that needs a jump wire? It can’t see any of these things.

So i’m not seeing what the end of the world screaming is all about.

Here's how the T2 along with the new for Apple repair vs third party works, if you're interested: https://9to5mac.com/2018/11/12/apple-t2-third-party-repairs/

Whether their policy will change or there will be work arounds, dunno.

 

[graybalanced]

It is not so much the soldered RAM that is an issue but the soldered SSD. Most users will choose an adequate amount of RAM as it does not add much to the initial purchase cost but the high cost of the SSD really forces the buyer to choose what, over time is not an adequate size of SSD storage, So, for the buyer, an upgradable and not soldered SSD would be very helpful. At least upgradable by an apple approved technician or shop.

With increasing complexity of circuitry including bus speeds, etc., the use of sockets becomes increasingly problematic from a reliability point of view. I also doubt that not that many folks are into messing with their computers.

Just upgraded an x360 HP that I use for travel to 250 GB capacity. I have yet to see an M.2 equipped laptop fail.

But my partner’s soldered on RAM failed.

Deed

We're not going to get anywhere by repeating individual anecdotes. The data that is relevant is the overall reliability rate and repair costs across millions of Macs that Apple and other manufacturers have.

How many times do we hear of soldered RAM actually failing on Macs and similar non-Apple devices? My guess is, not a lot.

My dad was one of those people who complained about how you couldn't repair a TV as easily because they had started going "solid state" instead of vacuum tubes. "Now you can't just replace the tube, you have to replace the whole board!" But the big picture point he missed, was that the overall rate of reliability of TVs is far superior to when they had vacuum tubes inside, which failed frequently.

The ultimate sealed devices are smartphones and tablets. How often does their RAM fail? How often does any of it fail? We never hear of "Oh, the RAM in my phone failed, I wish it wasn't soldered on."

Also, where to we stop? The power connectors can fail, the GPU can and has failed on MBPs, how many parts should be socketed? How much heavier and less reliable will laptops be if room needs to be made for moving and socketed parts that hold up less well to constant transport?

There are concerns about waste and non-recyclability, but my guess is that having to replace a motherboard is a small part of the e-waste stream. You, and we, already compromised the environment by wanting an electronic device of any kind. We want to "extend the life" of our computers but in the end, after 10 years 99.9% of them still go to the landfill even if they got a component upgrade at year 5. And the majority of thrown-out chips and boards are probably at the manufacturing stage, from the rejected products of each manufacturing run.

All of the points above are about reliability and e-waste. Those are two separate issues from the third issue which is user convenience. We are used to the convenience of replacing RAM and drives, but that is not equal to repairability (Apple can repair what the user is not allowed to) or reliability (soldered components may be statistically more reliable).

I do understand all the concerns. I've cracked open every single Mac laptop and desktop I've owned in the last 30 years, and upgraded every last one of them to make them last longer. I dislike not being able to spec low RAM and storage at purchase and put cheaper alternatives later myself. But I've also been impressed by how long Apple products have lasted even when sealed up, like my iPads which are over 5 year machines despite non-upgradeability.