M8 colors

[Thomas Windisch]

Got my M8 yesterday and have had some fun playing with it. I am having difficulty reproducing deep reds (red roses are pink) even when I exhaust my white balance options. Do I need a particular temprature? This is more apparent on the monitor but is still a bit soft on my computer. My D2 hits the mark with preset WB without any difficulty. The images were correctable with CS but I am concerned that I may have a problem. Thoughts?

 

[mhoutman]

well, yes,

please read all this.

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8881-purple-rd1-shot-m8.html

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8890-back-into-box-goes.html

Solms will find a solution though....

Michiel

 

[Etienne R. Werner]

Solms will find a solution though....

Michiel

Here I will give my personal representation (which I hope is right) of the offical Leica statement.

---Well, yes... and their solution is to have you buy a filter from Leica blocking IR for each lens and lets not forget that in order to make that work they want you to have all your "Leica" lenses coded. This of course means that CV &CS lenses will have to fend for themselves.---

At present I have no idea if these filters will actualy reduce the amount of light reaching the sensor. In otherwords will it reduce the sensitivity of the sensor?

Note:I am not posting a link to the official Leica statement release by Sean Reid on the Leica forum as per his request, he wanted to keep the statement on that forum.
Rgds,
Etienne

 

[Jim Radcliffe]

Maybe I expect too much from a $5000 camera.

This entire color issue really has me bothered. Leica releases the long awaited M8 and it has color issues? Maybe I am just stupid but it would seem to me that Leica would have taken every possible measure to insure that the M8 lived up to the Leica name in EVERY respect.. and getting color right is one of those things it needs to do.

I'm sorry, but wouldn't it be in the best interest of Leica to have addressed this problem BEFORE they released the camera. A $5,000 camera should have no issues but the dent it puts in your credit card or bank account.

To me, this really seems to be a serious issue. If black becomes magenta (as seen in one photo) and a red rose become a pink rose (as mentioned in another post) it occurs to me that Leica did not test this camera well in the real world before releasing it. And, if they did, and were aware of these issues, they should have mentioned it... or fixed it before the release.

Yes, all cameras seem to have a little bit of difficulty with colors now and then but to have black become magenta and red to become pink is to me, beyond a little difficulty in getting the colors right.

I hope this is not something that can only be fixed by adding filters, which translates to more cost. I hope there is another fix.

Jim Radcliffe
http://www.image36.com
http://www.oceona.com
The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear.

 

[bionet]

First, the DNG files are said to only have 8 bit colors. People on the Leica forum tried to play it down with some weird assumptions about putting 12 bit data into 8 bit values that didn't make sense at all (either you have 12 bits of data per sample or you don't).

Second, there is some serious "streaking" with high contrast through bright light sources. I tried to make my Canon 350D do this - under extreme conditions and iso1600, it can be seen if one looks closely and uses a monitor with grey resolution starting at pitch black, but it would be invisible on many screens or any print. To make it clearly visible as on the M8, I had to push brightness to what's probably way beyond ISO 10000.

I'm German and after observing similar disasters with other domestic products in recent years, I'm starting to wonder if skill in engineering is starting to disappear here. Japanese and South Korean products are cheaper and they actually work. :-

 

[nboyer]

...at least Germany is still producing something, here in the U.S. everything is made in China or elsewhere... -Norm

I'm German and after observing similar disasters with other
domestic products in recent years, I'm starting to wonder if skill
in engineering is starting to disappear here. Japanese and South
Korean products are cheaper and they actually work. :-

 

[Thomas Windisch]

I fear that if Leica cannot and does not remedy this immediately and at no finincial burden to the investors (like me) they will be relegated to producing munchkin lenses for Japanese vendors until Sony is ready for prime time. Wake up or drive a cab for the rest of your natural lives in Freiburg, Leica engineers/ executives! This camera has some almost supernatural capabalities, as I am discovering and could be the most amazing digital camera for the next decade but this color issue is just a Homer Simpson "doh."

 

[hetedik]

I'm German and after observing similar disasters with other
domestic products in recent years, I'm starting to wonder if skill
in engineering is starting to disappear here. Japanese and South
Korean products are cheaper and they actually work. :-

I am not German, just living here. Right now, because I have been working and living in many-many countries. I find Germany, in comparison, still one of the most well-organized countries, where you can still trust things. Basically, because you Germans, like Japanese or Korean, are crazy about perfection. Naturally, the M8 should also be perfect. From the first day.

But be fair. Weren’t the expectations maybe too high? The former Leica M is a camera of few hundred exact-engineered pieces, produced and improved over many-many years. The M8 is another class, a highly complex machine, a complicated computer with a lens on. Like all high-end digitals.

They can impossibly test all probable situations, all wave lengths of light (UV, IR ...), all kinds of background rays, which could affect the sensor and every combination of these. Actually, these tests should have been made at Kodak’s… Electronic and software are very complex nowadays, there is now software without bugs. I am not trying to justify anything, it is just a fact.

It is a pity though, that this has happened. I have also to admit, that my relaxed understanding is based on the fact that I have not picked up my 4.200 Euro M8 yet. And to be honest, I will rather wait a couple of weeks.

 

[flying monkey]

The problem of producing a camera like this for a small company are huge,Leica have decided to make quite a radical product on a small budget and there have been problems, it is a bit like buying a sports car from a small firm it will do some things well others not so well.

Leica i would think were aware of the problems before release but would have had a timetable and because of past events in their history have been under pressure to keep to it.

Leica i am sure will work to solve the problems but it will take time, speaking as a past user of R equipment i think that with Leica you need to honest about their position and resources and my experience was that i could not really except the level of faults and bad service that i obtained from my R8/9 and gave up.

You pay your money and take your choice but in the end it the same old story with Leica of the past 20 years.

 

[Thomas Windisch]

One of the reasons I purchased the M8 was my experience as a Digilux 2 owner. The color reproduction in that camera especially with pre WB is magnificent, period, end. I expected this from the M8. This was a problem I discovered within the first half dozen photos I took and is not something even a casual "point and shooter" wouldn't notice. My Digilux 2, D100, D2x and G7 have little difficulty with the same scene in my kitchen with a flowers. I laud Germans and Germany (note my sirname) for their organization and usual dogged (SP?) attention to detail, especially in issues of engineering. I am a big Leica fan and would like to see them climb back to the top rather than fade away. If even die hards are disappointed and Leica asks them to fork out cash to fix what appears to me to be an obvious design flaw, they will not, unfortunately remain in the serious camera production business long.

 

[avidday]

Citing the Digilux 2 probably isn't the best example - the lens design was Leica, but the rest of the camera was designed, manufactured and QA/QC'd by Matsushita in Japan.

 

[Jim Radcliffe]

The problem of producing a camera like this for a small company are
huge,Leica have decided to make quite a radical product on a small
budget and there have been problems, it is a bit like buying a
sports car from a small firm it will do some things well others not
so well.

Yes, a small company who desires to remain in the camera business in a digital world. This was important. Not the time to allow flawed design to be released to the public. Leica is aware of the meaning of their name. People respect it and and expect to receive cameras that render colors properly. Small company or not, you do it right or you fail. Asking the consumer to pay to correct a design flaw in a $5,000 camera is ridiculous.

Leica i would think were aware of the problems before release but
would have had a timetable and because of past events in their
history have been under pressure to keep to it.

If it was not ready, better for them to push the date back than release a camera that would generate negative press for them.

Leica i am sure will work to solve the problems but it will take
time, speaking as a past user of R equipment i think that with
Leica you need to honest about their position and resources and my
experience was that i could not really except the level of faults
and bad service that i obtained from my R8/9 and gave up.

As before. If they desire to continue to exist as a camera company they have to prodcue the camera and the service their name demands.

--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.image36.com
http://www.oceona.com
The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear.

 

[bionet]

I find Germany, in comparison, still one of the most well-organized countries,
where you can still trust things.

Nonetheless, there is a huge problem here with bringing promising technology to market. Bad firmware is currently a typical sickness of German engineering currently. In recent years I have seen it in products ranging from the disastrous TollCollect's on-board units over sound cards and adsl/voip combo modems that have been leaving thousands of users without a properly working phone since months to the Leica DMR with its firmware problems that never quite disappeared.

But be fair. Weren’t the expectations maybe too high?

No, the expectations to get a camera with 16-bit format raw files, a working IR filter and a sensor that can withstand light streaking are NOT high. Not even for a EUR 1000 camera, much less for more than 4x that. And not after digital cameras have been on the market for years and have reached a mature state in development. My 350D doesn't have any of these problems.
This is a sign of the "new German sluggishness" I have talked about above.

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

Got my M8 yesterday and have had some fun playing with it. I am
having difficulty reproducing deep reds (red roses are pink) even
when I exhaust my white balance options. Do I need a particular
temprature? This is more apparent on the monitor but is still a
bit soft on my computer. My D2 hits the mark with preset WB
without any difficulty. The images were correctable with CS but I
am concerned that I may have a problem. Thoughts?

Cameras with high infrared sensitivity (your M8, my old D100, the RD-1, etc) have this problem. Objects that reflect a lot of infrared light have additional magenta added to their color. Red flowers may not just go "pink", they may go "hot pink", a most annoying effect. Try explaining hot pink flowers to the mother of the bride....

Synthetic AND natural black fabrics, furs, and hair may go magenta.

Grass, trees, and the leaves of plants may go yellow...

You cannot fix these things with white balance. You can fix them in PhotoShop, but it's a lot of work, and very contrary to a Leica mindset. Shoot it right, up front.

The solution, as us DOTs (digital old timers) know, is a dichroic filter, often called a "hot mirror" or a "digital filter".

B+W 486 "Digital UV/IR Blocking" filters are great, a nice complement to Leica quality. The big problem is availability is horrible, except for small "SLR sizes" like 52mm, 55mm, or 58mm...

Heliopan "Digital Glass" filters are of comparable quality, and easier to get. Most of my IR contamination filters are Heliopan.

Expect about $110 each in sizes like 46mm for either Heliopan or B+W.

Tiffen "hot mirror" filters are less expensive than the German filters in small sizes. Tiffen also has a line of "digital clear" filters that are not dichroic filters, just clear glass to protect your lens from dirt and impact. Do not get the "digital clear" filters: if you buy a Tiffen, you need the "hot mirror".

Hoya makes something called a "digital filter" that is just a protective glass for your lens. It has no IR blocking capability. Avoid it. They also have a line of "digital" polarizers and "digital" close up lenses. Same thing, no IR blocking. Avoid those, too. Hoya makes nothing useful to the Leica shooter, unless you want to try infrared photography.

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

But be fair. Weren’t the expectations maybe too high? The former
Leica M is a camera of few hundred exact-engineered pieces,
produced and improved over many-many years. The M8 is another
class, a highly complex machine, a complicated computer with a lens
on. Like all high-end digitals.

They can impossibly test all probable situations, all wave lengths
of light (UV, IR ...), all kinds of background rays, which could
affect the sensor and every combination of these. Actually, these
tests should have been made at Kodak’s… Electronic and software are
very complex nowadays, there is now software without bugs. I am not
trying to justify anything, it is just a fact.

OK, here's "fair"...

The first Kodak DSLRs were exactly as your describe the Leicas: "a camera of few hundred exact-engineered pieces, produced and improved over many-many years."

Kodak quickly discovered that customers complained about IR contamination, and over 10 years ago offered their customers a user installable (in the body, not in front of the lens) IR blocking filter that could fix it.

Nikon, Canon, etc. users found IR contamination to be bothersome, so those companies built a similar filter into high end cameras starting in 2003.

It is a pity though, that this has happened. I have also to admit,
that my relaxed understanding is based on the fact that I have not
picked up my 4.200 Euro M8 yet. And to be honest, I will rather
wait a couple of weeks.

See if the store where you're picking it up has B+W 486 or Heliopan "digital glass" filters in stock. Those are two excellent IR blockers...

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

Could someone who's a member please forward my filter recommendations to the threads on the Leica forums that Michiel pointed out...

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8890-back-into-box-goes.html
http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8881-purple-rd1-shot-m8.html

Especially in the case of the first thread that started with Ben Utzer's comments about his results photographing against black velvet. My first serious infrared contamination problem was on a shoot involving a huge black velvet backdrop. The Heliopan filters made my black velvet look like black velvet again.

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[bionet]

Nikon, Canon, etc. users found IR contamination to be bothersome,
so those companies built a similar filter into high end cameras
starting in 2003.

What about D70, 350D etc? I haven't had any of these issues with the 350.

I can come up with those magenta light streaks with a light bulb in a shot pushed to ISO10000+, but that's it.

 

[koo22]

that statement from Leica says that for the filters to work, the lenses must be coded! That's another added expense, and do I take this to mean that if they are NOT coded (I have four not coded) the filter will do nothing?? Why do they say the lenses must be coded? That means the filter by itself is NOT any solution. K.
--
Galleries: http://www.koo22images.com/-/koo22images/

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

Nikon, Canon, etc. users found IR contamination to be bothersome,
so those companies built a similar filter into high end cameras
starting in 2003.

What about D70, 350D etc? I haven't had any of these issues with
the 350.

Canon has done better than Nikon just about since day one, right down to entry level. The IR photographers aren't happy with it, but it's the bee's knees for weddings

D70 is horrible, almost as bad as D100.

I can come up with those magenta light streaks with a light bulb in
a shot pushed to ISO10000+, but that's it.

That's a different problem. Unfortuantely, one that's going to bite the M8 hard, because Leica shooters are notorious for hanging around jazz clubs, which tend to be full of light bulbs...

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

that statement from Leica says that for the filters to work, the
lenses must be coded! That's another added expense, and do I take
this to mean that if they are NOT coded (I have four not coded) the
filter will do nothing?? Why do they say the lenses must be coded?
That means the filter by itself is NOT any solution. K.

I really, really don't get that. Unless they expect their filter to increase vignetting, so they need the vignetting correction of their coding system, in addition to the IR blocking of the filters. But that's just a wild guess, and not one I'm too confident in...

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com