Image viewing software - Color space and monitor profile question

[casdewrf]

Hello

I have a couple of wide gamut monitors which I have calibrated with a spyder3 and the profiles are definitely getting loaded when I enter the operating system.

I was under the impression that with the calibrated monitor profile loaded, everything running in windows would be passed through this profile.

Now what confuses me is:

When I use FastStone viewer or Irfanview and turn on ICM mode, then load in a jpeg that has a sRGB profile, the colours are still over saturated. I thought that the ICM in faststone / Irfanview was doing the colourspace conversion, and the windows monitor profile was then modifying the output?

The FastPictureViewer which has both ICM + "Monitor Output profile loader" built in, displays the image as it should look.

Photoshop displays the image correctly

Firefox 3 with ICM turned on displays the image correctly

So does this mean that image viewing applications somehow bypass the operating system's loaded monitor output colour profiles?

Thanks for any info on this that you can provide.

Regards

Cas

 

[Mark69517]

You are spot on. Faststone (and others) handle the image colourspace but ignores the monitor profile.

I've reported this issue at least four times to FastStone's developer but have yet received a reply. Its a real pity, FastStone in particular is a great app that I would be willing to make a donation for if this issue was resolved.

Cheers,
Mark

 

[casdewrf]

Thanks for the prompt reply Mark

So you too think that Faststone somehow bypasses the windows monitor profile loader as well? I agree, I think it would be a great app.

I wonder why both faststone and irfinview have done this?

Cheers again

 

[Mark69517]

I had the same discussion with Axel with an earlier release of FastPictureViewer. Originally FPV used SRGB as the default monitor colourspace (as FastStone seems to) so he added the option to select the monitor profile in a later release. Actually I was impressed with his Axel. He took my suggestions seriously and was very responsive about making changes that fitted in with the integrity of the FPV workflow.

I guess the reason why the others haven't resolved this is the perception that it only impacts a very small number - most of us who have invested in monitor colour profiling device are using fully colour-managed apps.

 

[markkuk]

I was under the impression that with the calibrated monitor profile
loaded, everything running in windows would be passed through this
profile.

Your impression is wrong. Loading the profile sets the gamma correction curves in the video card LUTs, but it's up to the application to use the color management engine to do color space conversion through the profile.

 

[casdewrf]

Why is it that if I have Irfanview or Faststone open with a loaded image, perform a calibration with the spyder software, then switch between before and after results with faststone or Irfanview in view, I see a change in the output of these image apps? (mind you their output is still not correct). If the curve is being applied to the LUT then these apps appear to actually run through the LUT somehow otherwise I shouldn't see any change in these image apps when I switch between before and after calibrated views, sound right?

Am I right in assuming that the Windows desktop runs through it, and almost all other applications, as I certainly see a difference with almost any application open at the time when I perform a before / after calibration preview.

This seems to be a real grey area for information.

Cheers guys

 

[markkuk]

The LUTs are part of the graphics card hardware and they effect the whole display, not individual applications or windows on the screen.

 

[casdewrf]

thanks for trying to help Markuk.

so what I'm asking is, if everything goes through the monitor profile loaded into the LUT, shouldn't the output of Irfanview, which has sRGB colour space option selected, output correctly even though it doesn't have dedicated monitor profile loading options?

 

[BrianZ]

I have made a similar request and offer to Irfan Skiljan about the need to have Irfanview honor the monitor profile. He seemed to be interested and said he would include it in a future release ("I am already using LCMS in my color profiles plugin, this is where I will add this to the plugin."). That was in January.
-BrianZ

You are spot on. Faststone (and others) handle the image colourspace
but ignores the monitor profile.

I've reported this issue at least four times to FastStone's developer
but have yet received a reply. Its a real pity, FastStone in
particular is a great app that I would be willing to make a donation
for if this issue was resolved.

Cheers,
Mark

 

[ianimal]

No because the .icm profile file has two parts.
One part for the LUT, and one part describing the monitor color space that the
CMS software applications should use.

I have also for some time back noticed the problem with FastStone.
It says it is CMS , but it cant be 100% CMS

Another history, I read that a picture file like .jpg could either
just be tagged for it's color space or also include the color space definition.
Some CMS apps. only work if the color space is included. If the picture file
only is tagged with this information the app. may dont care and asume sRGB.
Am I wrong if I remember that Firefox is one of these apps?

The more I read about CMS, the more I understand I dont understand

 

[BrianZ]

I think he already answered that here: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1004&message=31519122

I believe what he's saying is that only gamma (lightness/darkness) corrections are being applied to everything, but each application still needs to run the colors through the monitor profile to make corrections to the color space to adjust to the monitor's color. Irfanview can honor an imbedded profile (by selecting "use embedded profiles" under the "viewing" tab of "Options"-> "properties/settings") to convert colors to that image's color space, but then it still needs to run those colors through the monitor profile to convert them into the monitor's color space. Without this, the application is still assuming an sRGB display, and not adjusting for wide gamut colors.
Where is the "sRGB color space option" you're referring to?
-BrianZ

thanks for trying to help Markuk.

so what I'm asking is, if everything goes through the monitor profile
loaded into the LUT, shouldn't the output of Irfanview, which has
sRGB colour space option selected, output correctly even though it
doesn't have dedicated monitor profile loading options?

--

 

[casdewrf]

Hi Brian.

The sRGB colourspace I was referring to is the so called embedded profile I saved with the JPG file, loaded into faststone / irfanview, which I hope these apps are actually using

ok, so the data stored in the LUT's is only a tonal curve (like contrast setting?) but not colour correction for the monitor - so the colourspace profile is applied from the image app, the LUT is adding the tonal curve, and all that's now missing is the final monitor colour correction? - I think I'm getting close to understanding now?

Thanks again guys

 

[AxelR]

Hey, thanks

Actually, handling the monitor profile in FPV made great sense. Nowadays more and more computers (especially laptops) comes with a custom display profile so the number of potential users who benefit from this support is growing quickly.

--
Axel
http://www.fastpictureviewer.com

 

[casdewrf]

Great app Axel. FPV has saved me from ICM woes so far.

Thanks

 

[AxelR]

The FastPictureViewer which has both ICM + "Monitor Output profile loader"
built in, displays the image as it should look.

Glad to hear that Actually the program takes great care to perform a single transform from the image color space to the monitor's color space, to produce accurate colors on profiled displays, without banding or artefacts, and with negligible impact on performance.

The applications you mentionned seems to ignore the monitor profile and convert everything to sRGB when their CM function is enabled, thus the mixed results you get.

--
Axel
http://www.fastpictureviewer.com

 

[BadtzMaru]

its a new one for me, playing around with it now it seems like it might be my 'quick review' app in the future. I just wish it did a directory view like faststone as I often use that to 'zoom in' on my potential keepers. It also supports utf-8 which faststone doesnt, yay! I think I will buy the pro version to help support such a well thought out app.

 

[rnsphd]

I downloaded the free version of Fast Picture Viewer and avast! Antivirus detected that it contained the trojan: Win32.BIFROSE-EBJ. I submitted the file to VirusTotal Online Scan and it detected it in the download using avast! and one other antivirus program. The remaining 27 antivirus programs did not detect it.

VirusTotal Online Scan is a free service where you submit a file for testing and it uses 29 different virus programs to test your file for the presence of malware.

Ron

 

[AxelR]

I suggest that you report it to Avast.

--
Axel
http://www.fastpictureviewer.com

 

[casdewrf]

wow, it's been running fine for last few days. I'd say avast has just updated it's database and fastpicviewer is now on the list

 

[casdewrf]

FPV now presents the message " configuration is incorrect " when I try to run it, and gets no further. Even with resident protection turned off.

Looks like somethings been altered. Could Avast have modified the file even though I told it to ignore?