IBIS bug on E-PM1 demonstration

[sigala1]

The top row, IS was off.
Bottom row, IS 1.

Both rows, f/2.0 (with the 25mm lens), 1/100 sec, ISO 320.

I took many more photos that this, the bottom row is not a fluke but representative samples of how my E-PM1 was working TODAY.

What I noticed is that when I put the shutter speed to 1/20 instead of 1/100, sharpness actually IMPROVED with the IS turned on. So I think this is, as some people have hypothesized, related to the IS mechanism being shake by the shutter slap, and this subsides on longer exposures.

 

[Bob Meyer]

There doesn't seem any doubt that IBIS on the PM1 has some issues. I briefly considered buying a PM1 specifically for it's IBIS, since my Panny bodies don't have it, but I don't trust it enough to bite the bullet and spend the money.

I'd be interested in seeing comparison shots at progressively slower shutter speeds, from 1/100 down to, say, 1/10 or there abouts.

 

[racineur]

Gee, another Olympus IBIS issue. It's laughable. There's the dreaded EPL-1 which I own and now uses as if there was no built-in IBIS since I don't trust at all Olympus version of an image stabilization. And now E-PMI. I think Olympus has a free ride on this IBIS issue and it's not fair for so many well intended new m4/3 buyers who chose Olympus over Sony or Panasonic. Well, at least JPGS are somewhat impressive.
--
Let's keep it simple...Restons humains!

 

[Jeremy_T]

Were you shooting handheld or with a tripod?

 

[LaMesa]

I would guess that your "IS problem" is confined to only one shutter speed or a narrow area of shutter speeds, which should better not be used with IS. The focal length is a factor, too. Here is my experience:

The IBIS of my E-510 did an excellent job, even at incredibly slow shutter speeds. Strangely, with shutter speeds in the area of 1/100s and IS on, I could not get a single pertfectly sharp image.

As a test, I took a series of 2X 10 pictures of a huge advertising bord with a lot of fine text. Of 10 shots taken with IS "ON" at 1/100s, not a single one turned out really sharp. They all had a tiny amount of motion blur, regardless of my steady hand. Of 10 shots taken at 1/100s with IS "OFF", 9 came out perfectly sharp.

If you are familiar with control theory and feedback control systems, you expect this to happen. At a certain progression or timing of events (like little shutter shocks) a feedback system can become unstable due to critical propagation delay (phase shift) .

I wouldn't be surprised if this is the case with many IS cameras, yet undiscovered. Since it does only happen at a certain, relatively high shutter speed, it doesnt turn IS useless.

Herbert
--
http://www.pbase.com/herbRD
Olympus E-1, E-330, Vario-Elmar 14-150mm

 

[sigala1]

I would guess that your "IS problem" is confined to only one shutter speed or a narrow area of shutter speeds, which should better not be used with IS. The focal length is a factor, too. Here is my experience:

The IBIS of my E-510 did an excellent job, even at incredibly slow shutter speeds. Strangely, with shutter speeds in the area of 1/100s and IS on, I could not get a single pertfectly sharp image.

As a test, I took a series of 2X 10 pictures of a huge advertising bord with a lot of fine text. Of 10 shots taken with IS "ON" at 1/100s, not a single one turned out really sharp. They all had a tiny amount of motion blur, regardless of my steady hand. Of 10 shots taken at 1/100s with IS "OFF", 9 came out perfectly sharp.

If you are familiar with control theory and feedback control systems, you expect this to happen. At a certain progression or timing of events (like little shutter shocks) a feedback system can become unstable due to critical propagation delay (phase shift) .

I wouldn't be surprised if this is the case with many IS cameras, yet undiscovered. Since it does only happen at a certain, relatively high shutter speed, it doesnt turn IS useless.

IS is worse than useless for people who don't know to turn it off at 1/100 of a sec, and they have all of their shots ruined because of it. And it's perfectly reasonable to expect that IS would help at 1/100 of a sec, because it's not a completely safe handheld shutter speed for even a short telephoto focal length.

Olympus should be ashamed for making people like me figure all of this stuff out. If the IS doesn't work at certain shutter speeds they should ideally fix it, and if they can't fix it they have an obligation to disclose what shutter speeds you shouldn't use IBIS. Of course, I recently learned that Olympus is a highly unethical company.

 

[racineur]

IS is worse than useless for people who don't know to turn it off at 1/100 of a sec, and they have all of their shots ruined because of it. And it's perfectly reasonable to expect that IS would help at 1/100 of a sec, because it's not a completely safe handheld shutter speed for even a short telephoto focal length.

Olympus should be ashamed for making people like me figure all of this stuff out. If > the IS doesn't work at certain shutter speeds they should ideally fix it, and if they can't > fix it they have an obligation to disclose what shutter speeds you shouldn't use IBIS. > Of course, I recently learned that Olympus is a highly unethical company.

I concur. I never had anything to do in the past with Olympus but this IBIS issue has left me bitter. I wish Olympus people acknowledge their IS have some flaws.

--
Let's keep it simple...Restons humains!

 

[Hen3ry]

In the course of another thread, Guy Parsons and I concluded that my problems with IBIS might well have to do with the fact that I shoot with the EVF or OVF and the camera pressed against my face. Too steady. IBIS does better controlling grosser movements -- the kind of movements you get when the camera is held out in front of you as you view through the LCD screen.

That being said, there seemed to be soemthing around the 1/100 second mark.

I agree that Oly's IBIS has problems, and I hope they can fix it. As an E-PM1 user initially and now an E-PL3 user, I suspect the problems in some part have to do with the lightness of the bodies and with the (presumably) re-engineering of the IBIS system.

Our problem, of course, is that these little cameras are just so good in other ways that we can't keep our hands off them! Then they turn out to have at least one foot of clay. Sad, but … I still can't keep my hands of it!

Let's not go over the top with statements about Oly's ethis. Start from the premise: no company is ethical. Companies are legally bound to be unethical! They have one legal duty: to maximize profits for stockholders. That's it. They are supposed to do it within the bounds of the law. And they don't always keep within the law. That's illegal activity, not unethical activity.

Now how did you pay for your camera? Did you pay by Visa or MasterCard? PayPal? Or through one of the big banks? Are these companies ethical? Nope -- but you use them every day. Olympus is no more nor less ethical than these names that live in your wallet, gouge you for fees, hold all your personal data, and sell it to the highest bidder (or just any bidder) at the drop of a hat.

Olympus has one thing over all of them -- it actually produces something. They don't. And if you are worried about the amount of money involved in that odd deal, ask yourself -- how many people were dumped out of their homes and into total poverty by that? Now compare that with how many have suffered as a result of the big banks' mortgage scams.

Yet you deal with them daily on their terms.

Like you, I would really like to see Oly come good on something in respect of IBIS -- if only a firmware fix that turned IBIS off given certain lens/shutter speed combination. In the meantime, I'm, busy trying to think of good pix I can take rather than thinking dark thoughts about Olympus.

Cheers, geoff
--
Geoffrey Heard
http://pngtimetraveller.blogspot.com/2011/10/return-to-karai-komana_31.html

 

[amalric]

Were you shooting handheld or with a tripod?

Indeed, ot the whole exercise would be pointless, without a 'handshake simulator'

I am surprised that DPR doesn't have one: they used a tripod.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusepl3/page10.asp

"When in-body image stabilization is activated the E-PL3's sensor is allowed to physically shift to counteract movements caused by camera shake. While this is generally effective, as we've noted in the examples above, there are some considerations to be aware of when shooting on a tripod. Should you neglect to disable IS when shooting on a tripod, we've found that at shutter speeds slower than 1/250 vibrations from the shutter mechanism can cause the sensor to shift inadvertently, causing a blurry image."

Just be aware of the limitations instead of foaming at the mouth. There might be resonances across the system, miniaturised components being so light.

It would be interesting to know if this happens every time (shoot a sequence) or if the error is random.

DPR says the same of the above about the PM1, in a more concise way:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusepm1/page10.asp

Am.

--
Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric

 

[LaMesa]

Sigala,

I don't know how serious your IS problem with the E-PM1 is in reality. After my findings about the E-510, I thought about it and decided to give it no further attention. The 1/100s motion blur is only noticeable on a pixel level, does rarely happen and is not serious enough to ruin a picture.

Herbert
--
http://www.pbase.com/herbRD
Olympus E-1, E-330, Vario-Elmar 14-150mm

 

[Pete_S]

Of course, I recently learned that Olympus is a highly unethical company.

I know it's not the thread or even the forum to discuss this, and I've resisted so far, but what has the unethical behaviour of a small clique of top board members got to do with design, R&D, marketing, the actual products, and the rest (99.99% +) of the employees? Nothing.

It must be very upsetting for the average Olympus employee to hear the entire company and product line repeatedly damned by cheap "throw away" jibes, even if they were tongue-in-cheek (or maybe not, I can't tell).

Back on topic, agreed, they need to urgently sort out the IBIS.

 

[Jeremy_T]

Were you shooting handheld or with a tripod?

Indeed, ot the whole exercise would be pointless, without a 'handshake simulator'

I am surprised that DPR doesn't have one: they used a tripod.

I actually believe DPR tests hand-held, and they only include a warning to not use IS with a tripod.

I do wonder if the "IBIS problem" here is that some people have very steady hands. IS is known to fail on a tripod at certain shutter speeds, as DPR says, and the shutter speeds where people are observing issues are in the range where it would cause a problem on a tripod. So it's perhaps compensating for shake that is not there.

I suppose if you want to shoot with IBIS at 1/100, you should make sure that you have shaky hands

 

[LaMesa]

I suppose if you want to shoot with IBIS at 1/100, you should make sure that you have shaky hands

A tremor of exactly 100Hz would be helpful....

http://www.pbase.com/herbRD
Olympus E-1, E-330, Vario-Elmar 14-150mm

 

[kimchiflower]

I suppose a better firmware solution would be to have the IBIS automatically switched off when not required as it's not going to be contributing anything positive to the image.

What's the point of having IBIS on at 14mm when the exposure requires 1/100th second? The camera should be smarter than that. It's not rocket science to implement.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/53061745@N02/

 

[Pete_S]

I suppose if you want to shoot with IBIS at 1/100, you should make sure that you have shaky hands

There is some truth behind the jest - perversely it actually works for me

 

[amalric]

Well, at any rate DPR noticed a problem of resonance, for lack of better words, between the shutter and the IBIS.

However I wonder it that does not include a software element. For instance, when doubling resolution by adding two images, PhotoAcute demands a slight handshake, so that it can compare different pictures.

I am wary of cameras becoming to small and light: all sorts of unpredicted interactions might occur between very light components.

I wonder if one could not use bracketing at 1/100 or at least check autoreview with the EVF. It might not happen all the time, especially with Delirium Tremens

Am.
--
Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric

 

[LincolnB]

Yes, and my winter coat makes me sweat too much when I wear it in summer. Lousy coat.

These results show what many of us have figured out a while ago. When IBIS is turned on at shutter speeds that don't actually require IBIS - such as 1/100th for a 25mm lens in this example - then the results are worse.

IBIS works pretty well when you actually need image stabilization.

 

[amalric]

Yes, and my winter coat makes me sweat too much when I wear it in summer. Lousy coat.

These results show what many of us have figured out a while ago. When IBIS is turned on at shutter speeds that don't actually require IBIS - such as 1/100th for a 25mm lens in this example - then the results are worse.

IBIS works pretty well when you actually need image stabilization.

LOL I never switch off IBIS in other (bigger) Pens.

Am.

--
Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric

 

[Jeremy_T]

Yes, and my winter coat makes me sweat too much when I wear it in summer. Lousy coat.

These results show what many of us have figured out a while ago. When IBIS is turned on at shutter speeds that don't actually require IBIS - such as 1/100th for a 25mm lens in this example - then the results are worse.

IBIS works pretty well when you actually need image stabilization.

LOL I never switch off IBIS in other (bigger) Pens.

I never switch off IBIS either. The only time I do so is when shooting on a tripod (this is documented in the manuals).

I don't switch it off on the PM1 either. If it's caused trouble I have not yet noticed it.

 

[LincolnB]

Yes, and my winter coat makes me sweat too much when I wear it in summer. Lousy coat.

These results show what many of us have figured out a while ago. When IBIS is turned on at shutter speeds that don't actually require IBIS - such as 1/100th for a 25mm lens in this example - then the results are worse.

IBIS works pretty well when you actually need image stabilization.

LOL I never switch off IBIS in other (bigger) Pens.

Am.

Well, now you know that for this Pen you should turn off IBIS in non-IBIS situations. I found the same thing with my E-P1.

I don't wear my winter coats year-round. Well, except for my motorcycle jacket which has a winter liner. Does that mean my other jackets suck? Or does that mean I should be smart enough to take the winter liner out of my motorcycle jacket in the summer? Or does it mean that my motorcycle jacket is poorly designed, that the liner should automatically remove itself in May and reinsert itself in October?

IBIS in Pens is not a leave-it-on feature, as it turns out. It is a use-it-when-you-need-it feature, like a lot of other features like red-eye or iResolution.