Help! E-1 or 10d for first DSLR?

[Karaya]

Hello all.I hope that someone with more experiance can help me make up my mind.I have been researching DSLRs for many months now.I have been to my local dealer to examine the Canon 300d and 10d,as well as the Olympus E-1.The 300d is aimed at people like me,someone who wants to make the jump from digital point and shoots to a DSLR without breaking the bank,but it looks and feels 'cheap' to me.It may be a good value for the money but by the time you build a 'kit' around it you will still have spent thousands of dollars while being stuck with a 'cheap'feeling camera.This leaves the E-1 and 10d,both of wich feel right in my hands(I have big hands)and seem to be well built.Allow me to explain where I am at and what I want to do:

What I have; Kodak DC-290 2MP bought new in '99,wife just bought Canon A-80 4MP, Dell 8250 2.4 pent4,20" fp2000 lcd,HP 882c printer,using Microsoft picture it premium photo edition.XP home.

What I have been doing; casual family point and shoot stuff and vacation photologs.On a recent trip to Germany I ran into the limitations of my old DC-290.In museums shots without a flash were a challenge even with .5 second exposures.Macro shots of insects comprimised by lack of close focus,long shots of birds left me wanting more reach.Despite all this I did bring home a treasure of nice shots!I mostly like to look at photos on my monitor as 'slideshows',occassianaly print out keepers as 8x10s.I have worked with jpegs only.Not sure if I want to deal with RAW.

What I want to do;As above.I want a camera that will be easy to use for the P&S everyday snapshots but will also serve for delving into more nature photography.Macro and long telephoto-the birds and the bees.

What I would like to get;A versatile DSLR kit,body,2 lenses,flash,tripod,bag.Upgrade to Adobe photoshop Elements 2 and a better printer,leaning towards dye thermal,Canon cp-200 or Oly 440.

What I like about the Oly E-10;Sealed body and lenses along with self cleaning sensor.I treat my cameras with care but when something costs this much should it not be able to stand up to a little dust and moisture?Well integrated system,body,lenses,flash all work and play wll together.Lenses,14-54 and 50-200 covers the whole range of 28-400 in 35mm eqv. with 2 compact lenses and 2.8 -3.5 apperture!

What I like about the Cannon 10d;Scene modes,seems like a good way for a neophyte to take good shots while learning the ropes.Huge selection of lenses,including many IS models.Somewhat less expensive accessories,grip,flash etc.Pop up flash.Works well with exra fine jpegs.

What I have for a budget;I am receiving a tax refund of ~$7600 but I would feel silly blowing it all on a camera at this stage of the hobby.The less the better.

Options:

Go for broke pro grade Oly system;body 1799,14-54 lens 500,50-200 $1000,FL-50 flash 500,mem card 150,grip 500,tripod 150.bag 100,p-440 printer(8x10 dye thermal) 500.-300 for clunker trade in=~$4899

Economical Canon 10d system;body 1500,28-135 IS lens 450,550EX flash 350,mem card 150,grip 350,tripod 150,bag 100,cp-200 printer(4x6 dye thermal) 200=~$3250.

I am getting a sore butt from sitting on the fence.Does anyone having any insights or wisdom to share to help me decide?I am sure either camera is way more capable then I will ever be.I like them both.The oly seems like the more complte system,and more rugged,but the canon could save me some serious $.Thanks for reading this long rant and thanks for any advice!

 

[Colmar]

Hello all.I hope that someone with more experiance can help me make
up my mind.I have been researching DSLRs for many months now.I have
been to my local dealer to examine the Canon 300d and 10d,as well
as the Olympus E-1.The 300d is aimed at people like me,someone who
wants to make the jump from digital point and shoots to a DSLR
without breaking the bank,but it looks and feels 'cheap' to me.It
may be a good value for the money but by the time you build a 'kit'
around it you will still have spent thousands of dollars while
being stuck with a 'cheap'feeling camera.This leaves the E-1 and
10d,both of wich feel right in my hands(I have big hands)and seem
to be well built.Allow me to explain where I am at and what I want
to do:
What I have; Kodak DC-290 2MP bought new in '99,wife just bought
Canon A-80 4MP, Dell 8250 2.4 pent4,20" fp2000 lcd,HP 882c
printer,using Microsoft picture it premium photo edition.XP home.

What I have been doing; casual family point and shoot stuff and
vacation photologs.On a recent trip to Germany I ran into the
limitations of my old DC-290.In museums shots without a flash were
a challenge even with .5 second exposures.Macro shots of insects
comprimised by lack of close focus,long shots of birds left me
wanting more reach.Despite all this I did bring home a treasure of
nice shots!I mostly like to look at photos on my monitor as
'slideshows',occassianaly print out keepers as 8x10s.I have worked
with jpegs only.Not sure if I want to deal with RAW.

What I want to do;As above.I want a camera that will be easy to use
for the P&S everyday snapshots but will also serve for delving into
more nature photography.Macro and long telephoto-the birds and the
bees.

What I would like to get;A versatile DSLR kit,body,2
lenses,flash,tripod,bag.Upgrade to Adobe photoshop Elements 2 and a
better printer,leaning towards dye thermal,Canon cp-200 or Oly 440.

What I like about the Oly E-10;Sealed body and lenses along with
self cleaning sensor.I treat my cameras with care but when
something costs this much should it not be able to stand up to a
little dust and moisture?Well integrated system,body,lenses,flash
all work and play wll together.Lenses,14-54 and 50-200 covers the
whole range of 28-400 in 35mm eqv. with 2 compact lenses and 2.8
-3.5 apperture!

What I like about the Cannon 10d;Scene modes,seems like a good way
for a neophyte to take good shots while learning the ropes.Huge
selection of lenses,including many IS models.Somewhat less
expensive accessories,grip,flash etc.Pop up flash.Works well with
exra fine jpegs.

What I have for a budget;I am receiving a tax refund of ~$7600 but
I would feel silly blowing it all on a camera at this stage of the
hobby.The less the better.

Options:
Go for broke pro grade Oly system;body 1799,14-54 lens 500,50-200
$1000,FL-50 flash 500,mem card 150,grip 500,tripod 150.bag
100,p-440 printer(8x10 dye thermal) 500.-300 for clunker trade
in=~$4899

Economical Canon 10d system;body 1500,28-135 IS lens 450,550EX
flash 350,mem card 150,grip 350,tripod 150,bag 100,cp-200
printer(4x6 dye thermal) 200=~$3250.

I am getting a sore butt from sitting on the fence.Does anyone
having any insights or wisdom to share to help me decide?I am sure
either camera is way more capable then I will ever be.I like them
both.The oly seems like the more complte system,and more rugged,but
the canon could save me some serious $.Thanks for reading this long
rant and thanks for any advice!

Someone, who can give you some additional good insight into the relative merits of these cameras is Gene Windell. You can find his discussions on both the Olympus SLR Forum as well as the Canon 10D site here on dpReview. Clearly both are fine cameras, each with strengths and weaknesses, as everything has.

ColesKing

 

[John Duesterhoeft]

I didn't feel comfortable in investing in the 4/3 small sensor system. Personall, I can't see any reasons to choose an E1 over a Canon 10D or Nikon D100/D70. If you want weather sealing, get a 1DII (haha, it does fit within your tax refund!).

If they the E1 'call' pro grade... then why don't many pros use it? Look at and event with multiple photogs gathered... have you ever seen and Oly?

4/3 will be a handicap at higher resolutions. There are also very few lenses in the line, and very few companies making 4/3 lenses. I prefer the 35mm 2/3 image ratio too. Those lenses will last a long time...

The canon system, given some different lenses will IMHO will be a better imaging system.

Hello all.I hope that someone with more experiance can help me make
up my mind.I have been researching DSLRs for many months now.I have
been to my local dealer to examine the Canon 300d and 10d,as well
as the Olympus E-1.The 300d is aimed at people like me,someone who
wants to make the jump from digital point and shoots to a DSLR
without breaking the bank,but it looks and feels 'cheap' to me.It
may be a good value for the money but by the time you build a 'kit'
around it you will still have spent thousands of dollars while
being stuck with a 'cheap'feeling camera.This leaves the E-1 and
10d,both of wich feel right in my hands(I have big hands)and seem
to be well built.Allow me to explain where I am at and what I want
to do:
What I have; Kodak DC-290 2MP bought new in '99,wife just bought
Canon A-80 4MP, Dell 8250 2.4 pent4,20" fp2000 lcd,HP 882c
printer,using Microsoft picture it premium photo edition.XP home.

What I have been doing; casual family point and shoot stuff and
vacation photologs.On a recent trip to Germany I ran into the
limitations of my old DC-290.In museums shots without a flash were
a challenge even with .5 second exposures.Macro shots of insects
comprimised by lack of close focus,long shots of birds left me
wanting more reach.Despite all this I did bring home a treasure of
nice shots!I mostly like to look at photos on my monitor as
'slideshows',occassianaly print out keepers as 8x10s.I have worked
with jpegs only.Not sure if I want to deal with RAW.

What I want to do;As above.I want a camera that will be easy to use
for the P&S everyday snapshots but will also serve for delving into
more nature photography.Macro and long telephoto-the birds and the
bees.

What I would like to get;A versatile DSLR kit,body,2
lenses,flash,tripod,bag.Upgrade to Adobe photoshop Elements 2 and a
better printer,leaning towards dye thermal,Canon cp-200 or Oly 440.

What I like about the Oly E-10;Sealed body and lenses along with
self cleaning sensor.I treat my cameras with care but when
something costs this much should it not be able to stand up to a
little dust and moisture?Well integrated system,body,lenses,flash
all work and play wll together.Lenses,14-54 and 50-200 covers the
whole range of 28-400 in 35mm eqv. with 2 compact lenses and 2.8
-3.5 apperture!

What I like about the Cannon 10d;Scene modes,seems like a good way
for a neophyte to take good shots while learning the ropes.Huge
selection of lenses,including many IS models.Somewhat less
expensive accessories,grip,flash etc.Pop up flash.Works well with
exra fine jpegs.

What I have for a budget;I am receiving a tax refund of ~$7600 but
I would feel silly blowing it all on a camera at this stage of the
hobby.The less the better.

Options:
Go for broke pro grade Oly system;body 1799,14-54 lens 500,50-200
$1000,FL-50 flash 500,mem card 150,grip 500,tripod 150.bag
100,p-440 printer(8x10 dye thermal) 500.-300 for clunker trade
in=~$4899

Economical Canon 10d system;body 1500,28-135 IS lens 450,550EX
flash 350,mem card 150,grip 350,tripod 150,bag 100,cp-200
printer(4x6 dye thermal) 200=~$3250.

I am getting a sore butt from sitting on the fence.Does anyone
having any insights or wisdom to share to help me decide?I am sure
either camera is way more capable then I will ever be.I like them
both.The oly seems like the more complte system,and more rugged,but
the canon could save me some serious $.Thanks for reading this long
rant and thanks for any advice!

 

[Nabal]

The 4/3rds standard was born out of the simple concept that lenses designed for 35mm film cameras are needlessly large, heavy and expensive to meet the needs of digital imaging. Thus, one should expect that the lenses for the Olympus E-1 would be smaller, lighter and less expensive.

For example, the Olympus 14-54mm f/2.8-3.5 equates to a 28-108mm zoom range on a 35mm film SLR. There are no zoom lenses available for the Canon 10D which combine this much zoom range with this much wide angle coverage - and if there was, it would be huge in size and prohibitively expensive. This Olympus lens is weather sealed, is made of all metal construction, it uses aspherical elements, and is in every way equivalent to Canon Series L lenses yet is available at a much lower cost. I also should mention that it focuses down to 8 inches at all focal lengths, and can fill the frame with an object the size of a business card.

I have owned and used both the Canon 10D and also the Olympus E-1. I found that in the areas where the 10D has its greatest weaknesses, the E-1 has its greatest strengths:

1. The 10D has problems with autofocusing accuracy, whereas the autofocusing capability of the E-1 is exceptionally accurate.

2. The 10D has poor Auto White Balance accuracy, particularly indoors. The E-1 has uncommonly accurate Auto White balance - indoors, outdoors and with flash. In cases where you want to do a custom white balance, the E-1 has a 1-button custom white balance feature which makes this process much more quick and easy than with the 10D.

3. The Canon 10D has a propensity for blown-out highlights. In practical use, this means you often have to under-expose the scene to retain highlight detail - and then try to bring back the shadows and midtones with post-processing. The E-1 has more accurate exposure metering and an imaging sensor with wider dynamic range than the 10D. This results in no problems with blown-out highlights and much better capability to get the shot right the first time - without the need to shoot the same scene over and over again while adjusting the exposure settings.

4. The 10D has troublesome E-TTL flash metering. It is possible to get good flash exposures, but this requires an involved learning process and techniques which are difficult to apply in fast action situations. By contrast, the E-1's TTL flash system uses the same matrix, center-weighted and spot metering patterns that it uses for regular ambient light exposures. Most E-1 users find that they get excellent flash exposures 95% of the time by simply leaving the E-1 set to the default matrix metering pattern. For simple flash photography, there is nothing to learn and no technique required except "point and shoot."

5. The charactisterics of the Canon 10D are such that its images usually require extensive post-processing to look good, which involves shooting in RAW format with final tweaking in Photoshop. Because the Olympus E-1 has more accurate Auto White Balance and more accurate exposure metering with wider dynamic range, it produces very usable images right out of the camera - with little or no post-processing at all. With the Canon 10D, it may require months of "learning" and an investment in close to $1,000 in post-processing software before you can produce images that you are proud of. With the Olympus E-1, you will produce very pleasing images the very first time you use the camera.

The price of the Olympus E-1 has come down over time, and it is now possible to buy the camera for same as the typical price of the Canon 10D. The extra features (over the 10D) which you get with the E-1 are:

1. 100% viewfinder coverage and user interchangeable focusing screens.

2. Spot metering.

3. Automatic, anti-dust sensor cleaning.

4. In-camera routine for pixel mapping for hot, stuck and dead pixels.

5. Firewire and USB 2 computer connections. These enable fast, on-line firmware updates for the camera body, lenses and flash units.

6. Camera body and all lenses are weather sealed against rain and dust, while being smaller, lighter and less expensive than equivalent Canon products.

Gene Windell

 

[Nabal]

If they the E1 'call' pro grade... then why don't many pros use it?
Look at and event with multiple photogs gathered... have you ever
seen and Oly?

The only pro photographers you're going to see on television are shooting sports or photojournalism, and these competitive jobs often require the 8 frames per second burst capability of the Canon 1D and Nikon D2H. But there are numerous other sub-specialties of professional photography where this kind of speed is not necessary, and other factors are more important. In wedding photography, for example, the small size and light weight of the E-1 when combined with its Auto White Balance accuracy and superb TTL flash metering make it ideally suited for this kind of work.

Browse over to the Olympus SLR Talk forum, and you'll find professional photographers who have abandoned virtually every other type of dSLR on the market in favor of the Olympus E-1. I suggest there are only 2 catagories of photographers who don't prefer the Olympus E-1:

1. Those who haven't tried using it.

2. Those who require 8 fps burst capability, or who need to make prints bigger than 16X20 without interpolation, or those who require very low noise at ISO's higher than 800.

4/3 will be a handicap at higher resolutions.

The E-1 image files can be increased in size with interpolation software just as easily as the files from any other 5 or 6 megapixel camera, and produce equivalent results in sharpness and detail at print sizes larger than 16x20.

The 4/3rds specification for sensor size concerns only the length and width of the chip, and has nothing to do with the pixel count. The APS sized sensors like used in the Canon 10D and Nikon D100 are only slightly larger in dimensions, and as these are increased in pixel count the 4/3rds sensors will keep pace.

There are also very
few lenses in the line, and very few companies making 4/3 lenses.

With the E-1, Olympus has already introduced more lenses at the introduction than Canon did when they switched from the FD (manual focus) lens mount to the EF autofocusing lens mount. Already the range of 28-400mm (35mm equivalent) is covered with just 2 zoom lenses which are small, lightweight, relatively inexpensive, and perhaps meeting all the requirements that many photographers will ever have. Later this month, Olympus will begin distributing the 22-44mm f/2.8-3.5 (35mm equivalent)super-wide to normal zoom - which according to early test reports is optically superior to any equivalent lens on the market.

Later this fall, a 150mm f/2 zoom is scheduled for release - which equates to a 300mm f/2 lens on a 35mm camera. For 35mm film shooters, there has never before been anything like this - except the mythical Nikon 300mm f/2 lens which was priced at $29,000 and most people have never seen or even heard of.

That's the story of the Olympus lenses for the 4/3rds system. Smaller, lighter, faster, and cheaper than lenses designed for 35mm film cameras. Moreover, because of their telecentric design, they provide edge-to-edge sharpness and totally eliminate chromatic aberation - which are problems inherent to using lenses designed for 35mm cameras on digital SLRs.

Olympus has published a roadmap indicating they will release several new lenses for the E-1 in 2004, and several more in 2005. Popular Photography Magazine has reported that at least one 3rd party lens manufacturer will announce support for the 4/3rds standard at the upcoming PMA show. Because of Kodak and Fuji's involvement with the 4/3rds standard, products from them are also expected at some point in the future.

I prefer the 35mm 2/3 image ratio too.

The 3:2 aspect ratio, which is used by all dSLRs except the Olympus E-1, doesn't conform to any print size (in the US) except 4X6 and wallet size. If printing to 4X5, 8X10, 11X14 or 16X20 - nearly 20% of the imaging area must be cropped out when the 3:2 aspect ratio is used. When composing for the 8X10 print size at the time of shooting, it must be estimated how much of the image is going to be lost so you can frame the image accordingly. Because the 4:3 aspect ratio is equivalent to the 6x4.5 film format, it corresponds almost exactly with the most common print enlargement sizes. This fact, when combined with the Olympus E-1's 100% viewfinder coverage, make image composition at the time you are shooting much quicker and fewer pixels are wasted.

The canon system, given some different lenses will IMHO will be a
better imaging system.

The only benefit of using lenses designed for 35mm cameras on a digital SLR is that they are available. Unfortunately, they simply don't work very well for this purpose. Canon's predicament is that they have 3 different sizes of imaging sensors to support, and their 35mm camera lenses involve compromises with all three. With the full-frame 1Ds, the lenses can cause vignetting, edge softness, and chromatic aberation. This can be solved only be redesigning the lens mount to make it bigger, and use lenses that are the diameter of medium format camera lenses. With the 1.3 FOV and 1.6 FOV cameras, the lenses lose their wide-angle coverage - in addition to being larger and heavier than is necessary. In due course, technological advances by the competition (such as in-camera image stabilization) will force Canon to redesign their lens mount, and at that time a heavy investment in lenses designed for 35mm cameras will evaporate.

Gene Windell

 

[Daniel Clune]

If smaller size is important to you then the E1 is smaller and lighter. But as far as what Gene said about having to shoot in raw mode for the 10D is total bull. It does just fine shooting in jpg mode. Plus the 10D comes with Photshop Elements 2.0 The E1 is locked into a small size sensor, right now it does "OK" but is much noisery than the 10D at iso 400 and above just look at the noise graphs that Phil did here in the reveiws. Also if you need more zoom reach than 400mm (35mm equivlent) then dont get and E1 as the only choice is spme overpriced lens last i heard it was a special order lens that sells at around $7000, am sure its a very nice lens but way to much money. If you need long reach you could get a 10D along with a Sigma 50-500EX lens (80-800mm 35mm equivlent) which is very sharp lens and since the 10D has much less noise than the E1 you can shoot at a higher ISO to keep shutter speed up and still have excellant images.

10D=$1500
Sigma 50-500EX= $900
Canon 17-40=$700
Canon 28-135IS =$400 (walk around lens)
Total = $3500
plus bag tripod and flash unit price equivlent to E1 price for those acessories.

You would then have a camera that has a range of 27.2mm to 800mm in 35mm terms which can shoot in low light much better than the E1 (much less noise) plus the fact that when Canon sells full size sensors in a few years your lenses you bought will work fine were Olympus will abandon the 4/3 sensor as they will have no choice if they want to compete against cheap full size sensor cameras which will probably be around 14 mega pixels by then.

But if having a lighter setup with a range of 28 to 400 with only 2 lenses appeals more to you then get an E1. Am sure you will like either camera its just a matter of choices and needs.

--
http://www.pbase.com/dc9mm

 

[Colmar]

Hello all.I hope that someone with more experiance can help me make
up my mind.I have been researching DSLRs for many months now.I have
been to my local dealer to examine the Canon 300d and 10d,as well
as the Olympus E-1.The 300d is aimed at people like me,someone who
wants to make the jump from digital point and shoots to a DSLR
without breaking the bank,but it looks and feels 'cheap' to me.It
may be a good value for the money but by the time you build a 'kit'
around it you will still have spent thousands of dollars while
being stuck with a 'cheap'feeling camera.This leaves the E-1 and
10d,both of wich feel right in my hands(I have big hands)and seem
to be well built.Allow me to explain where I am at and what I want
to do:
What I have; Kodak DC-290 2MP bought new in '99,wife just bought
Canon A-80 4MP, Dell 8250 2.4 pent4,20" fp2000 lcd,HP 882c
printer,using Microsoft picture it premium photo edition.XP home.

What I have been doing; casual family point and shoot stuff and
vacation photologs.On a recent trip to Germany I ran into the
limitations of my old DC-290.In museums shots without a flash were
a challenge even with .5 second exposures.Macro shots of insects
comprimised by lack of close focus,long shots of birds left me
wanting more reach.Despite all this I did bring home a treasure of
nice shots!I mostly like to look at photos on my monitor as
'slideshows',occassianaly print out keepers as 8x10s.I have worked
with jpegs only.Not sure if I want to deal with RAW.

What I want to do;As above.I want a camera that will be easy to use
for the P&S everyday snapshots but will also serve for delving into
more nature photography.Macro and long telephoto-the birds and the
bees.

What I would like to get;A versatile DSLR kit,body,2
lenses,flash,tripod,bag.Upgrade to Adobe photoshop Elements 2 and a
better printer,leaning towards dye thermal,Canon cp-200 or Oly 440.

What I like about the Oly E-10;Sealed body and lenses along with
self cleaning sensor.I treat my cameras with care but when
something costs this much should it not be able to stand up to a
little dust and moisture?Well integrated system,body,lenses,flash
all work and play wll together.Lenses,14-54 and 50-200 covers the
whole range of 28-400 in 35mm eqv. with 2 compact lenses and 2.8
-3.5 apperture!

What I like about the Cannon 10d;Scene modes,seems like a good way
for a neophyte to take good shots while learning the ropes.Huge
selection of lenses,including many IS models.Somewhat less
expensive accessories,grip,flash etc.Pop up flash.Works well with
exra fine jpegs.

What I have for a budget;I am receiving a tax refund of ~$7600 but
I would feel silly blowing it all on a camera at this stage of the
hobby.The less the better.

Options:
Go for broke pro grade Oly system;body 1799,14-54 lens 500,50-200
$1000,FL-50 flash 500,mem card 150,grip 500,tripod 150.bag
100,p-440 printer(8x10 dye thermal) 500.-300 for clunker trade
in=~$4899

Economical Canon 10d system;body 1500,28-135 IS lens 450,550EX
flash 350,mem card 150,grip 350,tripod 150,bag 100,cp-200
printer(4x6 dye thermal) 200=~$3250.

I am getting a sore butt from sitting on the fence.Does anyone
having any insights or wisdom to share to help me decide?I am sure
either camera is way more capable then I will ever be.I like them
both.The oly seems like the more complte system,and more rugged,but
the canon could save me some serious $.Thanks for reading this long
rant and thanks for any advice!

Consider, when making your choice the opinions of those who have actual EXPERIENCE of both cameras. Ultimately it is your money (or rather that bit of it that has come back from the taxman !!) - you want to spend it wisely.

I am also looking to buy a digital camera - for me the choice is clear. I have spent some considerable time investigating these two cameras (Canon 10D and Olympus E-1) However, I will not sway you directly - perhaps just leave a few pointers for you to investigate. Do the investigation yourself - pick up the competing cameras - shoot a few frames with each. Look at the one which is going to be the best long-term bet. Consider the way technology is advancing. Don't get swayed by marketing "hype". The one company here is much more understated (an perhaps honest) in what it claims about its product.

ColesKing

 

[SoftD100]

If they the E1 'call' pro grade... then why don't many pros use it?
Look at and event with multiple photogs gathered... have you ever
seen and Oly?

The only pro photographers you're going to see on television are
shooting sports or photojournalism, and these competitive jobs
often require the 8 frames per second burst capability of the Canon
1D and Nikon D2H. But there are numerous other sub-specialties of
professional photography where this kind of speed is not necessary,
and other factors are more important. In wedding photography, for
example, the small size and light weight of the E-1 when combined
with its Auto White Balance accuracy and superb TTL flash metering
make it ideally suited for this kind of work.

Browse over to the Olympus SLR Talk forum, and you'll find
professional photographers who have abandoned virtually every other
type of dSLR on the market in favor of the Olympus E-1. I suggest
there are only 2 catagories of photographers who don't prefer the
Olympus E-1:

1. Those who haven't tried using it.

only because they know better

2. Those who require 8 fps burst capability, or who need to make
prints bigger than 16X20 without interpolation, or those who
require very low noise at ISO's higher than 800.

give me a break the E-1 is good for 8*10 at 300dpi thats all

4/3 will be a handicap at higher resolutions.

The E-1 image files can be increased in size with interpolation
software just as easily as the files from any other 5 or 6
megapixel camera, and produce equivalent results in sharpness and
detail at print sizes larger than 16x20.

The 4/3rds specification for sensor size concerns only the length
and width of the chip, and has nothing to do with the pixel count.
The APS sized sensors like used in the Canon 10D and Nikon D100 are
only slightly larger in dimensions, and as these are increased in
pixel count the 4/3rds sensors will keep pace.

only slightly larger ??? i think you need to look again

There are also very
few lenses in the line, and very few companies making 4/3 lenses.

With the E-1, Olympus has already introduced more lenses at the
introduction than Canon did when they switched from the FD (manual
focus) lens mount to the EF autofocusing lens mount.

you forget to mention nikon,nearly every lens can be used(some with limitations)

Already the

range of 28-400mm (35mm equivalent) is covered with just 2 zoom
lenses which are small, lightweight, relatively inexpensive, and
perhaps meeting all the requirements that many photographers will
ever have. Later this month, Olympus will begin distributing the
22-44mm f/2.8-3.5 (35mm equivalent)super-wide to normal zoom -
which according to early test reports is optically superior to any
equivalent lens on the market.

Later this fall, a 150mm f/2 zoom is scheduled for release - which
equates to a 300mm f/2 lens on a 35mm camera. For 35mm film
shooters, there has never before been anything like this - except
the mythical Nikon 300mm f/2 lens which was priced at $29,000 and
most people have never seen or even heard of.

That's the story of the Olympus lenses for the 4/3rds system.
Smaller, lighter, faster, and cheaper than lenses designed for 35mm
film cameras. Moreover, because of their telecentric design, they
provide edge-to-edge sharpness and totally eliminate chromatic
aberation - which are problems inherent to using lenses designed
for 35mm cameras on digital SLRs.

Olympus has published a roadmap indicating they will release
several new lenses for the E-1 in 2004, and several more in 2005.
Popular Photography Magazine has reported that at least one 3rd
party lens manufacturer will announce support for the 4/3rds
standard at the upcoming PMA show. Because of Kodak and Fuji's
involvement with the 4/3rds standard, products from them are also
expected at some point in the future.

no other 3rd party has yet anounced lenses cantrary to what olympus have stated for 4 months. maybe they see that there is no future in the standard ?

The only benefit of using lenses designed for 35mm cameras on a
digital SLR is that they are available. Unfortunately, they simply
don't work very well for this purpose. Canon's predicament is that
they have 3 different sizes of imaging sensors to support, and
their 35mm camera lenses involve compromises with all three. With
the full-frame 1Ds, the lenses can cause vignetting, edge softness,
and chromatic aberation. This can be solved only be redesigning
the lens mount to make it bigger, and use lenses that are the
diameter of medium format camera lenses. With the 1.3 FOV and 1.6
FOV cameras, the lenses lose their wide-angle coverage - in
addition to being larger and heavier than is necessary. In due
course, technological advances by the competition (such as
in-camera image stabilization) will force Canon to redesign their
lens mount, and at that time a heavy investment in lenses designed
for 35mm cameras will evaporate.

your totally off your rocker. your saying a 35mm lens is no good and has edge softness etc because it is on a digital camera,ge those film users must be screaming

Gene Windell

 

[Photofreund]

Sorry for my poor English.

I was owner of 10D and just bought E-1. I had experience with 70-200/4.0 L and 24/2.8 from Canon and now 14-54 and 50-200.

Both are fine cameras with strong body. Mirror of 10D is bigger, faster AF, little lesser grain > ISO400. More chromatic aberration with 10D and wide lens. 10D bulkier, and some problems with dust on sensor. E-1 fantastic handling, tethered operation possible, wheather protected, silent shooting, clear and nice colors, and at last more expensive for 1:1 direct comparison. When counting it's extras it's not overpriced. I like the way to hold and fire with E-1, it's a symphatic system. Some lenses coming next 2 years, zooms and fix lenses. And a new cheaper consumer DSLR with 4/3 sensor.

Buy Canon 10D or Olympus E-1, both have pleasant sides, I favor E-1 little more, it's more for practic use.

Daniel

 

[Nabal]

your totally off your rocker. your saying a 35mm lens is no good
and has edge softness etc because it is on a digital camera,ge
those film users must be screaming

The following is extracted from the Olympus E-1 review at the dp-now website:

BEGIN EXTRACT

Sensor characteristics compared to film:

Film has a relatively smooth surface and is able to receive light at a relatively acute angle without negative, pardon the pun, consequences. However, there is a school of thought that says the angle at which image-forming light rays fall onto the surface of an imager chip is critical and needs to be as close to 90 degrees to the focal plane as possible. This is because the light sensitive photodiodes live at the bottom of pits in the surface of the chip. As the angle of incidence of a light ray increases, less of the light is captured by the photodiode. Lenses designed for film cameras are allowed the luxury of acute angles.



Olympus says research by optical expert Professor Anders Uschold confirms that the use of typical lenses designed for 35mm film SLRs in digital SLR bodies demonstrates measurable loss of brightness and detail capture into the corners of the frame, also called corner shading, just as the angle of incidence theory predicts. He also demonstrates through his research that lenses designed specifically for electronic imagers in digital SLRS, using near parallel ray projection onto the focal plane by using near-telecentric lens design, are less prone to corner shading.

END EXTRACT

I wanted to point out that having the light rays strike the sensor edges at too sharp of an angle not only causes "corner shading" or vignetting, but it also causes softness at the image edges and chromatic aberation. While using micro lenses on top of the imaging sensor can offset these problems to some degree, it doesn't totally eliminate them.

The new DX series lenses by Nikon follow the same design concept as the Olympus 4/3rds lenses. That is to say, the light rays exit the rear pupil of the lens at angles that are nearly perpendicular to the edges of the sensor. But the big difference between Nikon DX and Olympus E-1 lenses is that the Olympus E-1 lenses communicate a lot more data to the camera body. This enables new technologies such as automatic, in-camera correction of lens induced image flaws such as vignetting, pincushion and barrel distortion, etc.

As these and other new technologies, such as in-camera image stabilization, are implemented in the Olympus E-1 series cameras and perhaps to a lessor extent by Nikon, Canon will be forced to redesign their lens mount to keep pace with the competition.

It has been said that competition among the different dSLR manufacturers benefits everybody. But there is a class of photographers that this competition does not benefit. And that would be those who already have a sizeable investment in outdated lenses which were designed for use with 35mm film cameras. Because these photographers have the most to lose by advances in lens design technology, it is normal and expected that they would be most vocal in their objections to the 4/3rds concept.

Gene Windell

 

[Jon Ragnarsson]

Try them both, preferably at the same time. Explain to the salesman what you want, and why, and I bet they will be happy to lend you a kit over a weekend. (If not, go somewhere else, a shop not interested in that big sale, doesn't deserve it )

Try them both. Which feels better? Which one are you comfortable with? Load files from both into photoshop, which one needs more work to look good? Photoshop hours can add up very fast.

J.
--
http://jonr.beecee.org/

 

[youthsports]

I would just like to clear up softd100's comment on print size

I have printed JPEG files from the E-1 up to 12x18 at my lab with no interpolation and can say there is no noticeable difference compared to a 6 mega pixel camera. I would also like to note I have printed file from just about every digital SLR available and they all can produce great images. You find many people in these forums that will bash other cameras and say there choice is the best do not take advice from these individual or you may make the wrong decision for yourself.

As others have said every camera has its Pros and Cons and you just need to decide which will fit your needs best.

If you have the patience to wait a little longer I would keep an eye on the S3

for it's claimed 2 stop dynamic range if this proves to be true and it still has the great color and detail of the S2 this will be one great camera and a hard one to beat when it comes to image quality

John Duesterhoeft wrote:

1. Those who haven't tried using it.

only because they know better

2. Those who require 8 fps burst capability, or who need to make
prints bigger than 16X20 without interpolation, or those who
require very low noise at ISO's higher than 800.

give me a break the E-1 is good for 8*10 at 300dpi thats all

4/3 will be a handicap at higher resolutions.

The E-1 image files can be increased in size with interpolation
software just as easily as the files from any other 5 or 6
megapixel camera, and produce equivalent results in sharpness and
detail at print sizes larger than 16x20.

 

[Karaya]

Sorry for my poor English.
I was owner of 10D and just bought E-1. I had experience with
70-200/4.0 L and 24/2.8 from Canon and now 14-54 and 50-200.

Both are fine cameras with strong body. Mirror of 10D is bigger,
faster AF, little lesser grain > ISO400. More chromatic aberration
with 10D and wide lens. 10D bulkier, and some problems with dust on
sensor. E-1 fantastic handling, tethered operation possible,
wheather protected, silent shooting, clear and nice colors, and at
last more expensive for 1:1 direct comparison. When counting it's
extras it's not overpriced. I like the way to hold and fire with
E-1, it's a symphatic system. Some lenses coming next 2 years,
zooms and fix lenses. And a new cheaper consumer DSLR with 4/3
sensor.

Buy Canon 10D or Olympus E-1, both have pleasant sides, I favor E-1
little more, it's more for practic use.

Daniel

Danke schön Photofruend!Your english is very good.And thank you Gene,your knowledge of ,and passion for,the Olympus E-1 is impressive!And thanks to everyone else kind enough to respond.I was surprised at how many people have had experiance with both cameras.I think,in the end, I will have to go back to the store and play with these two side by side and go with the one that feels best to me.

Everyone made excellent points but the discussion did turn into something of a debate amongst pros as to which system is better for pros,rather then which would be better for a amateur hobbyist like myself.It sems to me though,that the Canon system has the most appeal to advanced amateurs and pros who want to tap into the vast assortment of es lenses and accessories.While the E-1 has undeniable advantages for someone like me who wants a lite and compact two lens kit.

I would still have a couple of questions to ask of experianced users in both camps.

Does the E-1s sensor cleaner really solve the dirty sensor problem?Are the lenses really well sealed?Superior to competative consumer lenses?

While Canon does not yet offer a quality zoom lens that matches the range of the Oly 14-54,third party makers like Sigma and Tamron are working on this.Are their lenses a good option?

Thanks again everyone and I will be sure to post an update when I make my purchase.

 

[Nabal]

I would still have a couple of questions to ask of experianced
users in both camps.

Does the E-1s sensor cleaner really solve the dirty sensor
problem?

Yes, it does. There are about 125 E-1 owners in the Olympus SLR Talk forum, and none have reported any dust specks in their images yet. However, if one would happen to get something on the sensor which can't be shaken off - the procedures for manually cleaning the sensor are exactly the same as for the Canon 10D, and are well explained in the owner's manual.

Are the lenses really well sealed?Superior to competative
consumer lenses?

When Olympus USA gives a product demonstration for the E-1, they begin by pouring a glass of water all over the camera and lens. And I wanted to recount an anecdote about an E-1 user who claims he was shooting at the beach and got saltwater spray all over his camera. When he got back home, he simply took the camera into the shower with him, and hosed it down. Now I'm not recommending any of this, but just suggesting what other people have done with the camera.

While Canon does not yet offer a quality zoom lens that matches the
range of the Oly 14-54,third party makers like Sigma and Tamron are
working on this.Are their lenses a good option?

Third party lenses often provide excellent optical quality at a lower price than the camera manufacturer, but sometimes the construction quality is not as high. However, I would discourage any new Canon 10D owner from buying a 3rd party lens until after they are thoroughly familiar with the camera. The 10D can display autofocusing inaccuracies, which are related to the calibration of the camera body matching up with the calibration of the lens. When this occurs, the camera body and lenses must be sent in to a Canon service center for recalibration. The problem is, they won't do repair work on 3rd party lenses.

For an interesting case history of this type of problem, read these 2 postings by the same fellow at these links:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=7225859

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=7391965

It is a good idea to try out both the Canon 10D and Olympus E-1 at a camera store. But some of the things which will affect how much you enjoy using the camera on a day to day basis are not easily detected during a brief period of handling in a camera store. The accuracy of the Auto White Balance is very important, and it affects how muc post-processing is required for every image you shoot. I also suggest you test which camera is easier to manually focus. Even though you may plan to use autofocusing most of the time, the clarity and contrast of the focusing screen is the first indication of autofocusing accuracy. The Canon 10D not only suffers from autofocusing inaccuracies, but it is also nearly impossible to manually focus accurately due to its poor focusing screen. The E-1 not only has more accurate autofocusing, but it is also much easier to manually focus because of the superior constast and clarity of its focusing screen.

Gene Windell

 

[Marc Young]

The top poster wants to know if the 10D is a good first camera. Yes, if you learn how to workaround the Very Bad AWB and some focusing issues. Easy, don't use AWB indoors with low lighting. Use MWB. As for focusing, manually focus using the focus pt furthest away from you but within the fov you wish to capture. This would apply when you are shooting an object at an angle.

The only real answer is where the user wants to go from here. I'll admit that the 10D is overpriced when you factor in the cost of the lenses. But this is not where it ends. Is he planning to upgrade one day to a camera like the 1D Mk2 or a 1Ds? Then his investment in Canon lenses will not have gone to waste. I have no experience with Olympus other than one of their film cameras. What is the upgrade path for their digital cameras?

 

[Nabal]

As for focusing, manually focus using the focus pt furthest
away from you but within the fov you wish to capture.

That sounds good in theory, but in the 9 months that I owned a 10D I was never able to manual focus it accurately. The problem is that the focusing screen lacks sufficient clarity and contrast for determining whether or not the image is in focus. This problem is compounded by the fact that Canon lenses do not provide enough rotational throw on the focusing collar to allow fine adjustments in manual focusing. With many Canon lenses, turning the focusing collar just 1mm changes the point of focus from 3 meters to infinity.

Manual focusing with the E-1 is completely different. The standard focusing screen is like a micro-prism, so the image snaps into and out of focus with great clarity and precision. All Olympus E-1 lenses are like Canon USM lenses in that they all offer full-time manual focusing capability. They use an electronic focus-by-wire mechanism, which enables a lot of rotational thrown on the focusing collar - and this enables very fine distance adjustments for manual focusing.

So while the 10D has troublesome autofocusing capability combined with poor manual focusing, the E-1 has very accurate autofocusing combined with what is probably the best manual focusing of any dSLR on the market. For Canon 10D owners simply getting sharply focused images is a continuing challenge, whereas Olympus E-1 owners take it for granted and give the matter no thought at all.

Another area where there is a great difference between the 10D and the E-1 is in the area of TTL flash metering. The Canon E-TTL flash metering is based on the active autofocusing point, (which is similar to spot metering), which creates problems for those who focus first and then recompose. The Olympus TTL flash system allows the user to select the same matrix, center-weighted or spot metering paterns which are used for ambient light. When the camera is set to the default matrix metering mode, the Olympus TTL flash exposures are accurate about 95% of the time, indoors or outside. Many Canon 10D owners find the E-TTL flash metering so troublesome that they discard the the top-of-the-line 550EX flash unit they have purchased, and switch to an "automatic" flash unit such as the Metz 54MZ-3. The Olympus FL-50 flash unit was specifically designed for use with the E-1, and has an "automatic" mode like the Metz 54MZ-3 - which the Canon 550EX lacks.

The Canon 550EX flash unit has a zoom reflector, which senses the focal length of the lens and matches the spread of the flash to the lens focal length. But on the Canon 10D, the focal length of the lens never matches the angle of view of the imaging sensor which instead must be multiplied by 1.6. Consequently, the width of the flash is always wider than it needs to be - which wastes battery power and slows down flash recycling times. This can be expected, because the 550EX was designed 6 years ago for use with 35mm film SLRs and is badly out of date for use with digital SLRs.

The Olympus FL-50 was specifically designed for use with E-1 camera system, and is tightly integrated with it. The firmware in the flash unit can be up-dated on-line by attaching it to the camera, whenever updates become available to improve features or enable new ones. The Canon flash units, like the Canon lenses, can not have their firmware updated by the user.

The zoom reflector on the Olympus FL-50 precisely matches the angle of view of the lenses. When the FL-50 is attached and the E-1 camera is in Program exposure mode, the program senses the focal length setting of the lens and will not let the shutter speed fall below what can be safely hand-held without camera-shake induced blur. The E-1 also has a Program exposure shift function, which combines the best features of Aperture Preferred and Shutter Speed Preferred exposure modes. While this has long been a standard feature on premium film SLR cameras, it is lacking from the Canon 10D.

When the Olympus FL-50 flash is mounted on the E-1, it goes into sleep mode (for battery power saving) at the same time as the camera - and wakes up from sleep at the same time. The Canon 550EX has adjustable sleep mode timing, but it is totally independent from the camera it is attached to. When you press the button for the LCD control panel illumination lamp on the E-1 camera body, the LCD control panel on the FL-50 lights up at the same time.

Assuming full-power, manual mode and powered by 4 AA sized Ni-MH batteries, the FL-50 recycles in just 4 seconds while the Canon 550EX requires 6. The FL-50 has more diffusion than the Canon 550EX incorporated into the flash reflector, which allows the E-1 to photograph people with the flash straight-on without hot spots or blown-out highlights on their faces. With the Canon 10D and 550Ex flash, using bounce flash techniques and add-on diffusers such as the Sto-fen Omnibounce are generally required to avoid blown-out highlights on peoples' faces.

In conclusion the Olympus E-1 is so far superior to the Canon 10D, and on so many different levels, that the two cameras are not even in the same league. But one can only learn this by using the two cameras, side by side, as I have over a long period of time. There are many people who have bought the Canon 10D first, and after getting fed up with its shortcomings, switched to the Olympus E-1. But what you will likely never find is someone who bought the Olympus E-1 first, and then switched to the Canon 10D.

Gene Windell

 

[Leon Wittwer]

While I have not had the problems with the 10D that you have, I would agree that the E1 is certainly better in some respects. My reservations about the E1 more relate to the viability of the system and future price structures. Hopefully, PMA may show that the 4/3 base is broadening. If not, the 4/3 system probably will have a real hard road and may not do well. Canon, in particular, has taken the initiative and has built up a lot of momentum. Good sales provides dollars for more R&D and further improvements. Unless Oly gets going with better sales, they won't be able to do more R&D to continue with better products or broaden their product line. I really liked my E10 and still use my E20 so think that Oly knows about cameras. It is the marketing side I worried about. I did get tired of all the press releases with no camera available, and bought a 10D. I've been pleased with it. I do mostly landscape stuff so some of the things that bother some people don't impact my work.

Marc Young wrote:

That sounds good in theory, but in the 9 months that I owned a 10D
I was never able to manual focus it accurately.........

--
Leon
http://pws.prserv.net/lees_pics/landscapes.htm

 

[LeeBase]

I bought the 300D which you have dismissed. Just thought I'd add some of my insights.

The "cheap" feel -- I consider "light". And it's very nice to have a lighter camera.

You are right in "the whole system cost" kinda mitgates the price difference between the 300D and the 10D. After all, I already have almost $2000 in lenses in flashes for my 300D.

However, technology is changing very rapidly in camera bodies. Since my 300D gives me the same quality pictures as the 10D -- I figure I'll buy in at the lower price and upgrade later.

Lens technology is not changing at the same rapid pace and so I feel comfortable sinking more money into them.

A good quality lens is every bit as useful on a 300D as it is on a 10D.

As for the Oly -- that's a "manufacturer's" choice. Which manufacturer do you want to be tied into is probably a MORE important question than your first camera body from that manufacturer.

Canon has won me over from Nikon. I simply think they are more on the ball -- while realizing that companies will continue to meet the competition and leap frog each other.

Lee

Hello all.I hope that someone with more experiance can help me make
up my mind.I have been researching DSLRs for many months now.I have
been to my local dealer to examine the Canon 300d and 10d,as well
as the Olympus E-1.The 300d is aimed at people like me,someone who
wants to make the jump from digital point and shoots to a DSLR
without breaking the bank,but it looks and feels 'cheap' to me.It
may be a good value for the money but by the time you build a 'kit'
around it you will still have spent thousands of dollars while
being stuck with a 'cheap'feeling camera.This leaves the E-1 and
10d,both of wich feel right in my hands(I have big hands)and seem
to be well built.Allow me to explain where I am at and what I want
to do:
What I have; Kodak DC-290 2MP bought new in '99,wife just bought
Canon A-80 4MP, Dell 8250 2.4 pent4,20" fp2000 lcd,HP 882c
printer,using Microsoft picture it premium photo edition.XP home.

What I have been doing; casual family point and shoot stuff and
vacation photologs.On a recent trip to Germany I ran into the
limitations of my old DC-290.In museums shots without a flash were
a challenge even with .5 second exposures.Macro shots of insects
comprimised by lack of close focus,long shots of birds left me
wanting more reach.Despite all this I did bring home a treasure of
nice shots!I mostly like to look at photos on my monitor as
'slideshows',occassianaly print out keepers as 8x10s.I have worked
with jpegs only.Not sure if I want to deal with RAW.

What I want to do;As above.I want a camera that will be easy to use
for the P&S everyday snapshots but will also serve for delving into
more nature photography.Macro and long telephoto-the birds and the
bees.

What I would like to get;A versatile DSLR kit,body,2
lenses,flash,tripod,bag.Upgrade to Adobe photoshop Elements 2 and a
better printer,leaning towards dye thermal,Canon cp-200 or Oly 440.

What I like about the Oly E-10;Sealed body and lenses along with
self cleaning sensor.I treat my cameras with care but when
something costs this much should it not be able to stand up to a
little dust and moisture?Well integrated system,body,lenses,flash
all work and play wll together.Lenses,14-54 and 50-200 covers the
whole range of 28-400 in 35mm eqv. with 2 compact lenses and 2.8
-3.5 apperture!

What I like about the Cannon 10d;Scene modes,seems like a good way
for a neophyte to take good shots while learning the ropes.Huge
selection of lenses,including many IS models.Somewhat less
expensive accessories,grip,flash etc.Pop up flash.Works well with
exra fine jpegs.

What I have for a budget;I am receiving a tax refund of ~$7600 but
I would feel silly blowing it all on a camera at this stage of the
hobby.The less the better.

Options:
Go for broke pro grade Oly system;body 1799,14-54 lens 500,50-200
$1000,FL-50 flash 500,mem card 150,grip 500,tripod 150.bag
100,p-440 printer(8x10 dye thermal) 500.-300 for clunker trade
in=~$4899

Economical Canon 10d system;body 1500,28-135 IS lens 450,550EX
flash 350,mem card 150,grip 350,tripod 150,bag 100,cp-200
printer(4x6 dye thermal) 200=~$3250.

I am getting a sore butt from sitting on the fence.Does anyone
having any insights or wisdom to share to help me decide?I am sure
either camera is way more capable then I will ever be.I like them
both.The oly seems like the more complte system,and more rugged,but
the canon could save me some serious $.Thanks for reading this long
rant and thanks for any advice!

 

[LeeBase]

I've wondered what is holding Canon and Nikon up from designing lenses specifically for their digital Cameras (well, other than the 1 for the 300D).

It only makes sense that the smaller sensor size can be serviced better by a smaller lens -- which should mean cheaper.

Sure, lots of the "already have film equipment" folks have the desire to use their lenses on their film and digital cameras. And that's a market TO be served.

But I think equally worth serving are the folks that don't give a flip about their film camera compatibility and would like lighter, cheaper and higher quality lenses that work with their preferred digital camera.

I've invested in the Canon 300D and lens system--but I am keeping an eye on what the 4/3 people are doing.

Competition and choices are good things. Even for those of us with the comptetitors camera.

Lee

 

[Gary Reich]

Why not use the 300D as your starter body, build a lens system around it (the other cameras you mention will use them) and if you like taking digital SLR pics, upgrade your body later....the 300D is a great body to learn on. I can't say it makes much sense (unless you do the 10D) to get anything more expensive unless you have cash to burn.

Just my worthless two cents.