GXR = Ricoh are you taking the PI$$?

[ddk]

If I ever was wondering what happened to the brain behind the GRD, after two months with the GXR I'm convinced that he left the building when Ricoh came up with this concept. The notion of picking up random sensors and matching them individually to different lenses in this way, and actually expecting quality is a pipe dream. Its really an engineering nightmare and a financial black hole even if you can do it right. High quality sensors don't grow on trees, they're limited, cost a lot of money and require substantial resources, both financial and technical to get the best from one of them, doing the same for many different sensors? Yeah, right...

The way I see it, GXR is little more than a gimmick wrapped in marketing bs, the current modules prove it. I can't even begin to take this or any camera with such a horrible focusing system seriously. What the hell is up with the frozen screen and the long shutter lag Ricoh? Please don't mention hyper-focal and snap focus, they're techniques and don't fix what's broken; GXR's focusing system IS really BAD; by any standards! GXR's IQ and choice of lenses certainly leave a lot to be desired for me too, but that's irrelevant when the camera doesn't work to begin with...

Ricoh, you're capable of better, next time please give us a basic but properly engineered high quality camera that works instead of gadgets that don't!
--
david
http://www.pbase.com/ddk

 

[Harold66]

--
http://www.harold-glit.com
http://www.modelmayhem.com/haroldglit

 

[Pavel Kudrys]

I don't know like others, but I'm really happy about the pictures produced by so called " gimmick wrapped in marketing bs ".

























A12 AF is maybe not the fastest one, but definitely not the slowest one (see Leica X1 timings). I don't quite understand all these complaints about AF as if the AF would be the only GXR option how to focus. Are Leica M8/M9 or Epson RD1 bad cameras only because of complete lack of AF?

I think people should rather take some photos instead endless moaning about technical aspects of cameras. GXR is new concept with some baby illnesses as in any other new system. Just remember the GRDI with its ugly LCD, fragile rear wheel and nearly useless RAW writing speed. And where is GRD now? There is no and will never be a perfect camera!

--
Ricoh Film & Digital Forum
http://www.ricohforum.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7597032@N05/

 

[BillCarr]

The way I see it, GXR is little more than a gimmick wrapped in marketing bs, the current modules prove it.

Right now the best image quality with the GXR is the 50mm module, which is no better than the Nikon D5000 (which utilizes the same Sony sensor), but the Ricoh is more expensive and with inferior AF and no vari-angle LCD. The one advantage it has a somewhat smaller size.

If you were hoping for a GX300, tough luck -- but you can get the S10 kit for $830 (or fully loaded with EVF and superduper lenscap for $1100) in a package around the size of the Samsung NX10 or Panasonic G1. If people think that's a reasonable price they're in a pretty small minority.

Even Ricoh fanboy and brand apologist Wouter is decidedly noncomittal about the GXR. He complains about the lack of manual control in the A12 module and was confused by the decision to make it a 'macro.' Of the S10 module he said:

http://wouter28mm.wordpress.com/2010/03/12/my-impressions-of-the-ricoh-gxr/

"The higher ISO (above ISO 400) jpegs looked like Van Gogh paintings to me and there is a lot of smearing going on as result of the noise reduction. That still surprises me. It has been criticized by so many, but Ricoh seems unwilling to return to the much praised characteristics of the GR Digital I image engine.... in my opinion it is nowhere near the performance of the GRDIII with the exception of base ISO. At higher ISO the GRDIII is just so much better with less noise reduced jpegs and better RAW photographs with finer noise. The S10 delivers very blotchy noise at high ISO.

For the camera system itself he says, "The thing is that for me the Ricoh GXR misses desirability."

 

[ddk]

Hi Pavel,

I don't know like others, but I'm really happy about the pictures produced by so called " gimmick wrapped in marketing bs ".

Yes you can take some pictures with the GXR but there's a lot that you miss to the frozen screen.

The marketing bs and gimmick comment is about the GXR concept, its not as if you can't get the same IQ and better without the matching lens/sensor fantasy and for less money too.

A12 AF is maybe not the fastest one, but definitely not the slowest one (see Leica X1 timings). I don't quite understand all these complaints about AF as if the AF would be the only GXR option how to focus.

GXR is basically an AF camera, given the nature of the product mf isn't a realistic or natural option, at least not for me. Its not only about the AF speed, its the incessant freezing screen and the maddening shutter lag that adds to the ineffectiveness of GXR's focusing system.

Are Leica M8/M9 or Epson RD1 bad cameras only because of complete lack of AF?

No, they have an effective optical range finder system for focusing, with a variety of lenses designed for mf. GXR's lenses are AF in nature, but its AF system sucks, the screen freezes and there's a long shutter lag leaving you to wonder what you actually caught, definitely not a decisive moment kind of tool. Besides, you're not limited to two unspectacular lenses with Leica and they don't try to sell you 2nd rate sensors with every lens as something special!

I think people should rather take some photos instead endless moaning about technical aspects of cameras. GXR is new concept with some baby illnesses as in any other new system.

Well, this concept is stillborn, you're dreaming if you believe Ricoh's sensor/lens hype has commercial merit. You've been around Pavel, you know what it takes for a camera company to adapt a new sensor properly to their product line, please don't tell me that you believe in this multi sensor fantasy. I'd rather Ricoh came out with a high end compact with a high end sensor and fewer bugs, charge us once rather than piece-mealing us with this schlock over time. Please tell me what's so special about GXR's IQ that you can't get from cameras less than half its price? You don't even have the flexibility of a dslr or a micro 4/3 camera.

Just remember the GRDI with its ugly LCD, fragile rear wheel and nearly useless RAW writing speed. And where is GRD now? There is no and will never be a perfect camera!

For one thing the GRD never froze on me, I never missed a shot because of it. The GRD concept was very clear from day one, a very precise tool. GXR is no GRD and is handicapped by its nothingness.

--

--
david
http://www.pbase.com/ddk

 

[ddk]

The way I see it, GXR is little more than a gimmick wrapped in marketing bs, the current modules prove it.

Right now the best image quality with the GXR is the 50mm module, which is no better than the Nikon D5000 (which utilizes the same Sony sensor), but the Ricoh is more expensive and with inferior AF and no vari-angle LCD. The one advantage it has a somewhat smaller size.

Lets not forget that you're stuck with the one lens while you have a choice of many with the D5000.

If you were hoping for a GX300, tough luck -- but you can get the S10 kit for $830 (or fully loaded with EVF and superduper lenscap for $1100) in a package around the size of the Samsung NX10 or Panasonic G1. If people think that's a reasonable price they're in a pretty small minority.

Even Ricoh fanboy and brand apologist Wouter is decidedly noncomittal about the GXR. He complains about the lack of manual control in the A12 module and was confused by the decision to make it a 'macro.' Of the S10 module he said:

http://wouter28mm.wordpress.com/2010/03/12/my-impressions-of-the-ricoh-gxr/

"The higher ISO (above ISO 400) jpegs looked like Van Gogh paintings to me and there is a lot of smearing going on as result of the noise reduction. That still surprises me. It has been criticized by so many, but Ricoh seems unwilling to return to the much praised characteristics of the GR Digital I image engine.... in my opinion it is nowhere near the performance of the GRDIII with the exception of base ISO. At higher ISO the GRDIII is just so much better with less noise reduced jpegs and better RAW photographs with finer noise. The S10 delivers very blotchy noise at high ISO.

For the camera system itself he says, "The thing is that for me the Ricoh GXR misses desirability."

--
david
http://www.pbase.com/ddk

 

[Harold66]

Right now the best image quality with the GXR is the 50mm module, which is no better than the Nikon D5000 (which utilizes the same Sony sensor), but the Ricoh is more expensive and with inferior AF and no vari-angle LCD. The one advantage it has a somewhat smaller size.

the one advantage ?
let's see how about way better user interface ? way better LCD ?
possibility to use external OVF and external EVF ..

but i suspect you know about most of it . you are not telling us that the GXR is not for you. you have done that multiple times
more trolling, I guess...

Harold
--
http://www.harold-glit.com
http://www.modelmayhem.com/haroldglit

 

[Harold66]

ddk wrote:

e.

Lets not forget that you're stuck with the one lens while you have a choice of many with the D5000.

--

That is true , at least for now but it is somewhat ironic on a nikon camera that prevents you from using MANY nikon lenses because of the restriction imposed by the lack of an AF motor. talk about a camera with restrictions.....
Harold
--
http://www.harold-glit.com
http://www.modelmayhem.com/haroldglit

 

[Steffen Kaufmann Dresden]

I agree that the GXR is not a sports-cam and a DSLR is significantly better for sorts of street photography, it really depends on your demands in terms of speed.

 

[Aub08]

It appears that we can expect a couple of these types every week or so until they get bored and look elsewhere to express their frustrations. They are quite easy to spot as trolls now, I see one post below actually tries to compare the GXR to a Nikon DSLR to try and gain points against the GXR!!

It's a good indication just how threatened some enthusiasts are by this innovative and courageous move, and trying to shoot it down in it's infancy shows even more fear of what the system might become in the future.

It seems some early adopters have a few issues but one can see from the limited number of posts against the camera, that in fact a very large number of folks are probably following this system quietly and with interest.

People have expressed a variety of wishes for the next new modules, my interest is in a flexible travel camera capable of excellent image quality (where possible) as dictated by the limitations of compact size. So far I'm convinced this system has the flexibility to satisfy a few different niches.

regards.......Paul

 

[Aub08]

Sorry Harold, my post is not in response to you as such, more just a general response to the GXR bashing........;-)

.......Paul

 

[pppp]

Wait for the firmware !

;-)
--
My Ricoh GXR samples:
http://ricoh-gxr.blogspot.com/

 

[ddk]

your eyes Paul, but stating the truth isn't trolling.

It appears that we can expect a couple of these types every week or so until they get bored and look elsewhere to express their frustrations. They are quite easy to spot as trolls now, I see one post below actually tries to compare the GXR to a Nikon DSLR to try and gain points against the GXR!!

It's a good indication just how threatened some enthusiasts are by this innovative and courageous move, and trying to shoot it down in it's infancy shows even more fear of what the system might become in the future.

Not threatened, disappointed.

It seems some early adopters have a few issues but one can see from the limited number of posts against the camera, that in fact a very large number of folks are probably following this system quietly and with interest.

Limited no. of posts can also indicate limited sales.

People have expressed a variety of wishes for the next new modules, my interest is in a flexible travel camera capable of excellent image quality (where possible) as dictated by the limitations of compact size. So far I'm convinced this system has the flexibility to satisfy a few different niches.

Exactly what I was hoping for in the GXR, but unfortunately that's not what it is.

regards.......Paul

--
david
http://www.pbase.com/ddk

 

[FD_Paul]

Harold - thanks for making my day.



Paul

 

[ddk]

ddk wrote:

e.

Lets not forget that you're stuck with the one lens while you have a choice of many with the D5000.

--

That is true , at least for now but it is somewhat ironic on a nikon camera that prevents you from using MANY nikon lenses because of the restriction imposed by the lack of an AF motor. talk about a camera with restrictions.....

Harold, you're arguing just for the sake of argument, not reason, your blah, blah comment above is indicative of your attitude towards me. You don't have a point her; yes, there's no AF motor in the D5000 but there are still plenty of Nikon and other third party lenses designed to work properly with the it. The D5000 is an entry level, consumer dslr for Nikon and they've identified it as such and built a complimentary system around it, its not the case here with the GXR.

--
david
http://www.pbase.com/ddk

 

[ddk]

Wait for the firmware !

I doubt it, they never fixed GRD2's freezing screen with firmwares, its just born that way. Maybe in another module but I hope that its one for interchangeable lenses, otherwise its still a gimmick.

--
david
http://www.pbase.com/ddk

 

[ddk]

I agree that the GXR is not a sports-cam and a DSLR is significantly better for sorts of street photography, it really depends on your demands in terms of speed.

Its really more than just the AF speed. My complaint is more about the frozen screen and the time lag from the moment that you hear the target acquired beep to the time the shutter's released and the image is captured. You're in the dark for a few seconds, during which time either your subject, the photographer, or both could have moved without you seeing or realizing it.
--
david
http://www.pbase.com/ddk

 

[Pavel Kudrys]

Yes you can take some pictures with the GXR but there's a lot that you miss to the frozen screen.

David, I personally never understood all this cry about so called "frozen screen". Yes, it's there (only in A12, not in S10!) and it's annoying. But I never found it tragic issue. It was present in GRDII/GX200 too but I was much more annoyed by some Aperture/Shutter speed limitations rather than the screen freeze. I'm not used to move with camera while focusing. And this is the only case where the screen freeze could be a problem because you cannot evaluate and fix the framing. I only move with camera in case of panning. But in this case, the camera is already pre-focused so there is no problem with LCD freeze. I can see the annoyance caused by LCD freeze and maybe some lost pictures because of slower AF, but I never missed a picture because of "frozen screen".

The marketing bs and gimmick comment is about the GXR concept, its not as if you can't get the same IQ and better without the matching lens/sensor fantasy and for less money too.

I too don't like the marketing lies. But I understand the GXR concept and I like it. It may not be your cup of tea, but I clearly see the advantages of such modular system. I too miss the possibility to play with 3rd party (and mainly legacy) lenses. But I believe the GXR lens mount module is only a question of time. Maybe not tomorrow or next month, but it will definitely happen. And this is the major advantage of GXR over systems like X1 or DP1/2.

GXR is basically an AF camera, given the nature of the product mf isn't a realistic or natural option, at least not for me. Its not only about the AF speed, its the incessant freezing screen and the maddening shutter lag that adds to the ineffectiveness of GXR's focusing system.

Again, the LCD freeze may be a problem for you, but many people don't even noticed this issue. It's a matter of taste and shooting style. It will not make the pictures to look worse and the quality of pictures is what really matters. At least for me? And from what I saw up to now, the A12 easily beats anything from m4/3 taken at high ISO. Both in JPEG and RAW. I have really no problem taking pictures at ISO3200. And I have to add that noise, in general, is not a problem for me! It's aggressive noise reduction that bothers me most.

A12 AF speed is maybe not the fastest one, but it's not worse than AF of direct competitors (except the GF1) or even most DSLRs in the LiveView mode. In another post you mentioned D5000. Did you try it in LiveView mode? Because this is exactly what GXR A12 AF is about. Sensor-based contrast detection AF, which is very slow in nearly all DSLRs. My friend's D90 is not an exception. In LiveView, it's as slow (if not slower) than A12 AF!

I believe Ricoh will eventually improve the reliability of AF (mainly to stop hunting for focus) and maybe add some AF helpers. I personally don't believe in dramatic changes in A12 AF speed but some focus assistance helpers would be greatly welcome. And there is a lot of things Ricoh can do in this matter. Let's wait and see.

Well, this concept is stillborn, you're dreaming if you believe Ricoh's sensor/lens hype has commercial merit. You've been around Pavel, you know what it takes for a camera company to adapt a new sensor properly to their product line, please don't tell me that you believe in this multi sensor fantasy.

GXR is not only about multi sensor modules and I seriously doubt it was ever intended to be a competition killer? Ricoh always did cameras in their "expensive niche" way and GXR is not exception. I love the expansion possibilities introduced with GXR. Tiny backup HDD, small printer or even small projector that can be attached instead of lens module looks like very interesting option for travels and parties. People want to see GXR as m4/3 competition, which is not and was never meant to be. And this is what people misunderstood about GXR.

I'd rather Ricoh came out with a high end compact with a high end sensor and fewer bugs, charge us once rather than piece-mealing us with this schlock over time. Please tell me what's so special about GXR's IQ that you can't get from cameras less than half its price? You don't even have the flexibility of a dslr or a micro 4/3 camera.

High-end compact with so called high-end sensor (I really don't understand what's wrong about sensor in A12?) would not change much. It would not be much smaller than current GXR body, there would be the same AF issues, because sensor-based contrast detection is simply slow method of focus (especially with large sensors), and it will lost the GXR expandability. It will just turn into yet another expensive X1 and people would start to complain about the need to buy multiple cameras only to get the different focal lengths. Sorry, but I really don't see the advantage of X1 (DP1/2) concept over the GXR? With GXR, you still have a prospect of future expandability. Something you will not have with X1 or DP1/2. But yes, I would like to see also a compact camera in DP1/2 style in Ricoh product range. I mean really pocketable camera with large sensor and fixed lens.

For one thing the GRD never froze on me, I never missed a shot because of it. The GRD concept was very clear from day one, a very precise tool. GXR is no GRD and is handicapped by its nothingness.

Well, I missed many shots with GRDI just because of slow RAW writing. And even GRDI JPEG writing was nothing miraculous. An this I consider much worse issue than any screen freeze.

As I said, what bothers you does not bother me. The point is, that we all have different priorities and requirements. And calling the GXR concept a "marketing bs and gimmick" is in my humble opinion rude to anyone involved in this system. Either the GXR developers and all happy users. Just my point of view.

--
Ricoh Film & Digital Forum
http://www.ricohforum.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7597032@N05/

 

[BillCarr]

Right now the best image quality with the GXR is the 50mm module, which is no better than the Nikon D5000 (which utilizes the same Sony sensor), but the Ricoh is more expensive and with inferior AF and no vari-angle LCD. The one advantage it has a somewhat smaller size.

the one advantage ?
let's see how about way better user interface ? way better LCD ?

Nikon's interface is quite good, and the D5000 has the vari-angle LCD. If you want the same LCD screen get the D90 (same sensor as the Ricoh) for $780.

 

[Harold66]

David

Strange comment from you , although somewhat expected

It is perfectly fine for someone to express disappointment but you made the same points weeks ago

Also the way you talked about some of your issues with the camera makes you wonder if you still have it and if you don't how long you had it

one way or another it looks like you don't know how to make the best of the camera

maybe you would have been better off trying to change some of the factory default settings instead of spending time here going on and on about all the stuff you don't like without ever trying to learn how to use it

After reading your posts, it almost feels like you have a different camera than us

because from the issues you mentioned, I have some that do not exist in mine and some which are not half as bad as you state them
makes you wonder, doesn't it...
Harold
--
http://www.harold-glit.com
http://www.modelmayhem.com/haroldglit