Flash Trigger? and How to lock flash exposure?

[Albert Ang]

Hi,

I'm looking for manual flash radio trigger. I'm planning to trigger Olympus FL50R, Nikon SB600 and SB900 from Olympus OMD EM5. Will it be possible to mix different brand of speedlights? Can you please suggest which model should I look for?

Also, from googling, I just knew Olympus does not have Flash Value Exposure lock like Nikon and Canon have. Basically what it does is to send pre-flash, get the correct flash exposure by TTL and lock the flash exposure. Similar as AEL except it's for flash only.

So my question, how do you shoot flash by TTL when the subject is off center? The camera metering can only be in the center.

Thank you.

Regards,
Albert

 

[RoyGBiv]

Hi,

Also, from googling, I just knew Olympus does not have Flash Value Exposure lock like Nikon and Canon have. Basically what it does is to send pre-flash, get the correct flash exposure by TTL and lock the flash exposure. Similar as AEL except it's for flash only.

So my question, how do you shoot flash by TTL when the subject is off center? The camera metering can only be in the center.

These are great questions. I have the body configured to exposure lock when half-pressing hte trigger, so I could compose on the bright section of the image, and halfpress to expose the background. Then I would recompose for the shot. But does TTL then know how to compensate the recomposed shot? I did this this weekend, and had a hard time getting control over the flash lit portion of the shot. For me it was trial and error.

I was a big fan of the blue asterisk with my Canon equipment. It made a huge difference with the speedlights. Move the focus/exposure point to the subject...hit the blue dot...bam...you've got your flash setting. I'm curious how others do this w/ the e-series.

--
'I have no responsibilities here whatsoever'

 

[olyflyer]

Hi,

I'm looking for manual flash radio trigger. I'm planning to trigger Olympus FL50R, Nikon SB600 and SB900 from Olympus OMD EM5. Will it be possible to mix different brand of speedlights? Can you please suggest which model should I look for?

There are plenty cheap radio triggers on eBay. The ones I have are a bit old now but I bought them for US$15 pair (transmitter/receiver) including shipping to Sweden. Anyway, with the SB900 you don't even need radio triggers, it has the SU4 mode and a PC trigger output. If you wire your flashes together the SB900 can trigger all of them in manual mode assuming you set the flash on the camera to M mode as well and use that as a trigger for the slaves.

Also, from googling, I just knew Olympus does not have Flash Value Exposure lock like Nikon and Canon have. Basically what it does is to send pre-flash, get the correct flash exposure by TTL and lock the flash exposure. Similar as AEL except it's for flash only.

So my question, how do you shoot flash by TTL when the subject is off center? The camera metering can only be in the center.

I can't help you with the Oly related question, but I am sure it is in the manual. Anyway, you can not use TTL with the mixed brand flashes, you must use manual mode.

 

[bruceisla]

Assuming that your first statement "I'm looking for manual flash radio trigger." is actually what you are looking for, TTL is not a priority for you. Assuming your finances are not unlimited, you are looking for inexpensive triggers and receivers that are for manual flash mode only .... there are quite a few of those from different manufacturers and sell for about 15 USD per unit. As far as compatibility with Canon/Nikon/Olympus flashes, the receivers work MANUALLY with all of those flashes but you may need to block unused contacts (an old piece of film negative with a hole in the center works fine). The flash will need to have the ability to select various power ratios manually (a switch or button on the flash). Basically, you manually adjust the aperture and speed on the camera and manually adjust the power on the flash. This isn't that hard now that we have instant feedback via the LCD on the camera.

As for the transmitter, you will need one to match the receivers AND it must be compatible with the OLY hotshoe .... some transmitters require an adapter (you will probably need to fabricate one).

In my case, I use Yongnou RF-603 tranceivers (the Nikon versions) with a Canon hotshoe adapter (it has been rewired ... it has contacts that physically line up with the OLY hotshoe but in stock condition the wiring is different), the Nikon version tranceivers work as receivers in manual mode on my Nikon sb-28, Canon 540ez, Minolta 4000af, and Olympus t-20. Mix and match .... makes no difference except for the power of each flash type.

As I said .... no TTL .... everything is done manually.

If you want to do TTL you will need a pile of cash.

 

[Albert Ang]

Sorry for the confusion, in my original post, those were 2 unrelated questions.

The first one is the manual trigger flash. I have Nikon flashes, SB600 and SB900 that are not in use (the rest of my Nikon gears unfortunately were stolen), so I guess I would like to take use of it. I'm looking for radio trigger (instead of using optical trigger), to give more option on the speedlight position.

The second question is about TTL FV Lock. I just bought Olympus FL50R to complement OMD-EM5. I'll use the TTL feature when I don't have a lot of time to set up manually or when only 1 flash is used.

In my case, I use Yongnou RF-603 tranceivers (the Nikon versions) with a Canon hotshoe adapter (it has been rewired ... it has contacts that physically line up with the OLY hotshoe but in stock condition the wiring is different),

I'm not very confident with rewiring stuffs unfortunately. Is there any out of box solution?

I know Pixel offers Pawn radio trigger for Olympus, Nikon and Canon. I'm wondering if it's possible to mix and match them. For example:

transmitter is mounted on Olympus camera, (using Pixel Pawn Olympus transmitter)
receiver #1: FL50r, (using Pixel Pawn Olympus receiver)
receiver #2: SB900, (using Pixel Pawn Nikon receiver)
receiver #3:SB600, (using Pixel Pawn Nikon receiver)

Thanks.

 

[bruceisla]

I have not personally used the Pawn setup but the Oly transmitter and Nikon receivers will "probably" work manually but not TTL. It's a question you should direct to Pawn.

Don't know the answer to part 2.

 

[RoyGBiv]

So, Albert, is this the type of scenario you're talking about (with the exception of offsetting the subject).

I was trying to get my off-camera FL50R to provide a nice degree of fill in this shot that had way too much contrast to deal with.

The first few shots was an exercise in aiming the darn flash which of course left the subject completely dark. leaving me wondering...do I not have enough light dialed in? I upped the flash like 3EV.

Then of course when aim was corrected, I had overcompensated the flash:



It took a few shots to figure out a decent setting.



So...if these guys were off-center, how would you like to shoot this? Is that what you're asking? Besides going back to the basics of metering the faces, then metering the background, and doing the manual adjustment...is there a way to do it with TTL, right?

I know how I'd do it on my Canon, but not my Oly. On the Canon, I'd have hit the flash exposure lock with the focus/exposure square over their faces. I'd compose on their face for the focus lock, and then recompose. Half press to get the overall exposure, and shoot. On the e-series...you don't have exposure lock. If you focus lock, and recompose, exposure lock and shoot...are you assured that TTL does a reasonable job?

--
'I have no responsibilities here whatsoever'

 

[bruceisla]

BTW, an alternative would be to sell the Nikon units and buy another Oly "R" unit. Eliminates your need for triggers and allows TTL ....

 

[Gary Blake]

I have two sets of the Cactus V5 flash triggers - these will work with all your flashes (and almost standard hot shoe flashes)

http://www.gadgetinfinity.com/cactus-wireless-flash-transceiver-v5-duo.html

I use these with a FL50 and 2 older Vivitar 285's and they work great, manual flash only of course.

The units are all transceivers, quite versatile and well reviewed (read a lot of reviews before I bought them)

I also bought the optional shutter release cable which allows remote shutter release function with the same units (only 9.95 extra - don't know if they have one out for the EM5 yet though)

Gary

 

[daddyo]

Both the FL50R and SB900 offer 'Automatic' exposure mode, which will work perfectly well with any radio trigger set up. The SB600 unfortunately doesn't from what I read in the specs.

What the FL50R and SB900 won't do is allow TTL flash metering, off-camera using radio triggers.

So with those two flashes, using radio triggers you can use either Auto Mode, or Manual Mode.

God Bless,
Greg
http://www.imagismphotos.com
http://www.mccroskery.zenfolio.com
http://www.pbase.com/daddyo

 

[Albert Ang]

So, Albert, is this the type of scenario you're talking about (with the exception of offsetting the subject).

I know how I'd do it on my Canon, but not my Oly. On the Canon, I'd have hit the flash exposure lock with the focus/exposure square over their faces. I'd compose on their face for the focus lock, and then recompose. Half press to get the overall exposure, and shoot. On the e-series...you don't have exposure lock. If you focus lock, and recompose, exposure lock and shoot...are you assured that TTL does a reasonable job?

Yes, that's what I meant. For Nikon and Canon, that's exactly what I will do.

Can any Oly portrait shooters provide any suggestion ?

 

[Albert Ang]

I have two sets of the Cactus V5 flash triggers - these will work with all your flashes (and almost standard hot shoe flashes)

Thanks Gary, I will order from them.

BTW, an alternative would be to sell the Nikon units and buy another Oly "R" unit. Eliminates your need for triggers and allows TTL ....

Sadly, money is the limit

 

[daddyo]

With the Oly flashes, it doesn't matter if your subject is off center. What matters is the reflectance of the areas in the scene. If you are shooting Auto-TTL the flash matches its output to the reflected light through the lens -- that is, if you are shooting at f5.6, the flash shuts down when it reads f5.6 light.

Flash exposure lock, which Oly doesn't have, is a very handy thing to have to lock skin tone exposure, but it's not a big deal. If I do a shot and my subjects are dressed in white, I simply need to bump up my flash compensation to offset the high reflectance of the white material. If the subject is wearing black, I know I need to reduce my flash output using the compensation dial. It's not that difficult, but I long for the day when Oly has 'face detect' for flash metering

God Bless,
Greg
http://www.imagismphotos.com
http://www.mccroskery.zenfolio.com
http://www.pbase.com/daddyo

 

[Albert Ang]

Flash exposure lock, which Oly doesn't have, is a very handy thing to have to lock skin tone exposure, but it's not a big deal. If I do a shot and my subjects are dressed in white, I simply need to bump up my flash compensation to offset the high reflectance of the white material. If the subject is wearing black, I know I need to reduce my flash output using the compensation dial.

Thanks Greg for the response.

It's not that difficult, but I long for the day when Oly has 'face detect' for flash metering

Actually, if Olympus allows flash exposure lock, it can be done easily. Just set to spot-metering (to avoid reflection from dress), and FV lock to the face.

The face-detect flash metering is really a great idea! Hopefully some researchers in those camera companies listen to your idea.

 

[olyflyer]

With the Oly flashes, it doesn't matter if your subject is off center. What matters is the reflectance of the areas in the scene. If you are shooting Auto-TTL the flash matches its output to the reflected light through the lens -- that is, if you are shooting at f5.6, the flash shuts down when it reads f5.6 light.

That's not true. This is not how flash TTL is working. In TTL the flash emits a pre flash which the camera uses to measure the reflected light from, sets the main flash based on the measured pre flash. If conditions change between pre and main flash the image is over or underexposed. If the subject is off centred outside the meter area then the image will not be exposed right, seen from the subject motive. It may be right seen from the image average, but that's not necessarily what you wanted and your subject may be over or underexposed even if the scene is exposed right.

Flash exposure lock, which Oly doesn't have, is a very handy thing to have to lock skin tone exposure, but it's not a big deal. If I do a shot and my subjects are dressed in white, I simply need to bump up my flash compensation to offset the high reflectance of the white material. If the subject is wearing black, I know I need to reduce my flash output using the compensation dial. It's not that difficult, but I long for the day when Oly has 'face detect' for flash metering

"Face detect" for flash metering can only work if the metering area is moved around with the focus point. Olympus meters only the centre part of the image no matter which area you are focusing on. I haven't checked the OMD, but I guess it is still the same.

 

[olyflyer]

Flash exposure lock, which Oly doesn't have, is a very handy thing to have to lock skin tone exposure, but it's not a big deal. If I do a shot and my subjects are dressed in white, I simply need to bump up my flash compensation to offset the high reflectance of the white material. If the subject is wearing black, I know I need to reduce my flash output using the compensation dial.

Thanks Greg for the response.

It's not that difficult, but I long for the day when Oly has 'face detect' for flash metering

Actually, if Olympus allows flash exposure lock, it can be done easily. Just set to spot-metering (to avoid reflection from dress), and FV lock to the face.

Be careful, Olympus uses the centre focus area for spot metering, not metering off the selected AF area, so you have to focus/exposure lock/recompose, but due to the fact that there is no FV lock in Oly cameras this technique can not be used with flash. For this to work the TTL pre flash must be emitted at the focus stage, not at the shutter release stage.

The face-detect flash metering is really a great idea! Hopefully some researchers in those camera companies listen to your idea.

Actually, ESP with face priority should work, shouldn't it? The other metering modes can not be used since they only meter from the center.

Anyway, Nikon has already invented this with the D300 (maybe before) and even the V1 works that way... so the idea is not new, just new to Olympus.

 

[Michael Meissner]

I also bought the optional shutter release cable which allows remote shutter release function with the same units (only 9.95 extra - don't know if they have one out for the EM5 yet though)

The E-M5 uses the same shutter release cable as most of the consumer class cameras (RM-UC1). Shutter release and flash trigger companies don't always update the compatibility information, and in one case often get it wrong (E-30 uses RM-UC1, not RM-CB1). Both Pixel and Cactus triggers have cables that mimic the RM-UC1 shutter release. If you have an E-1, E-300 (with battery grip), E-3, or E-5 you would use the RM-CB1 cable variant instead.

In terms of light lock, as I understand it, Olympus doesn't have the same support as Nikon or Canon. You would have to use either manual or auto (non-TTL) flash support.

 

[RoyGBiv]

With the Oly flashes, it doesn't matter if your subject is off center. What matters is the reflectance of the areas in the scene. If you are shooting Auto-TTL the flash matches its output to the reflected light through the lens -- that is, if you are shooting at f5.6, the flash shuts down when it reads f5.6 light.

That's not true. This is not how flash TTL is working. In TTL the flash emits a pre flash which the camera uses to measure the reflected light from, sets the main flash based on the measured pre flash. If conditions change between pre and main flash the image is over or underexposed. If the subject is off centred outside the meter area then the image will not be exposed right, seen from the subject motive. It may be right seen from the image average, but that's not necessarily what you wanted and your subject may be over or underexposed even if the scene is exposed right.

Flash exposure lock, which Oly doesn't have, is a very handy thing to have to lock skin tone exposure, but it's not a big deal. If I do a shot and my subjects are dressed in white, I simply need to bump up my flash compensation to offset the high reflectance of the white material. If the subject is wearing black, I know I need to reduce my flash output using the compensation dial. It's not that difficult, but I long for the day when Oly has 'face detect' for flash metering

"Face detect" for flash metering can only work if the metering area is moved around with the focus point. Olympus meters only the centre part of the image no matter which area you are focusing on. I haven't checked the OMD, but I guess it is still the same.

That is exactly right, Olyflyer. TTL will attempt to illuminate the scene to give you a properly exposed scene , and in doing so may overexpose the subject.

My takeaway is that the best substitute, if skin tone is your primary interest, and you don't want to subject your subjects to alot of guesswork is to simply to do the spot metering exercise, observe the EV difference, and enter in your manual setting accordingly. It's certainly nice to have the blue asterisk...sometimes alot of experimenting takes the spontaneity out of the moment...and you can see the expressions on their faces go from that natural happy feeling gradually towards strain as their happy thoughts start to change to "what's taking him so long??"

--
'I have no responsibilities here whatsoever'

 

[JJJPhoto]

Both the FL50R and SB900 offer 'Automatic' exposure mode, which will work perfectly well with any radio trigger set up. The SB600 unfortunately doesn't from what I read in the specs.

What the FL50R and SB900 won't do is allow TTL flash metering, off-camera using radio triggers.

So with those two flashes, using radio triggers you can use either Auto Mode, or Manual Mode.

Greg, you are correct that automatic/auto mode can be used with any radio trigger setup, but the problem with using auto mode on flashes that have this setting is that it doesn't always work "reliably" when you're using multiple flash units.

Auto mode on a flash works by setting the flash to a specific ISO and F-stop and then the light meter built into the flash itself turns off the flash when it detects the correct amount of light that corresponds to the ISO and F-stop setting.

Let's say you have a multiple-flash portrait setup with a key light (main light illuminating the subject from the front), a back light (illuminating the subject from behind and helping to separate the subject from the background), and a third gelled background light to put color on the background and give the portrait a nice setting.

If all three flashes are set on auto mode then the light meter in each flash will see "cross talk" from the other two flashes and potentially turn off the flash early. The light meter in the key light will see the light from the back light and the gelled background light and in all likelihood will kill the key light before the subject is correctly illuminated. Likewise, the back light and the background light might turn off before they output the correct amount of light for what they need to illuminate.

Bottom line, it's fine to use auto mode with a single flash setup but I would rarely trust auto mode for a lighting setup with multiple flashes. The only time I "might" be willing to trust auto mode is if I'm using a key light and an opposing fill light to the left and right of my subject and just want the light on both sides to be even/flat. Even then, there is the potential for "cross talk" between the flashes and I might end up with one or both flashes turning off prematurely.

I would rather use manual flash power settings when using multiple lights. Wireless TTL (using the Olympus "R" flashes) is also a possibility ... but that's another lengthy post.

 

[daddyo]

My response was not stated clearly, the camera does read the pre-flash to set the flash output. However, it is not based on ambient light reading, it is based on reflected light, and over or underexposure is the result of the reflectance of objects in the scene -- and not just in the camera metering area. At least this is true of the operation of the FL-50 on an olympus camera in Auto-TTL Mode.

This can easily be tested in a dimly lit room that is basically a mid-tone scene. Take a medium tone fabric covered chair and place it in the middle of the room and do a flash shot with the camera set to spot metering. Now move the chair to the extreme edge of the frame and repeat the shot (framing it just like the first) -- the chair will be exposed the same. Now, leaving the chair at the edge of the frame cover it with a white sheet, and repeat the shot -- the camera will read the pre-flash and under- expose the overall scene because of the reflectance of the subject which is now totally out of the metering zone.

God Bless,
Greg
http://www.imagismphotos.com
http://www.mccroskery.zenfolio.com
http://www.pbase.com/daddyo