FF sensors expensive to make? Think twice

gml

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Here is a link I found on the FM forum:
http://www.chipworks.com/blogs.aspx?id=4626&blogid=86

"Canon appears to be the only lithography equipment manufacturer to offer an i-line stepper configured for 200/300mm wafers with a 50mm x 50mm field. "

In other words, Canon have the technology to make FF sensors in a single lithography pass. And that's on 300mm (12") wafers.

So, FF sensors are not that difficult and expensive to manufacture - as some marketing white papers would like us to believe.
Here is a link to the stepper itself:

http://www.usa.canon.com/opd/controller?act=OPDModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=2402&modelid=9165
 
but that is a ridiculous statement. If you knew anything about producing these kinds of things, you would know there are two factors that determine the price of chips or sensors: numbers per wafer and yields And yields are mostly the result of the size of the chip, and not how much is on there. Bigger chips = lower yields. Which is one of the reasons CPU manufacturers always want to go smaller, because the yields will go up.

In other words, they might be able to produces hundreds of tiny compact camera sensors on a single wafer and possibly have something like a 98% yield and thus have very low cost. And at the same time, they might be able to get a a few dozen FF sensors out of wafer with say 80% yield and end up with a bunch of very expensive sensors.

So you have relatively few sensors per wafer and relatively low yields making high cost. It is simple math, and it has nothing to do with production capabilities. Having 12" wafer production capability is nothing special. Everybody has that. Producing 36mm by 24mm chips, that IS something special.
--
Gijs from The Netherlands

Canon 5D + EF 24-105/f4 L IS
Canon 30D + EF-S 17-55/f2.8 IS

Got the equipment, still looking for talent. Please contact me if you find some cheap.
 
Here is a link I found on the FM forum:
http://www.chipworks.com/blogs.aspx?id=4626&blogid=86

"Canon appears to be the only lithography equipment manufacturer to
offer an i-line stepper configured for 200/300mm wafers with a 50mm x
50mm field. "
In other words, Canon have the technology to make FF sensors in a
single lithography pass. And that's on 300mm (12") wafers.
If Canon can do that, that would be great. That means they can lower the cost of sensors even more. Right now Canon is the only maker with a full frame costing less than $2,000. Perhaps we will see prices fall even lower in the future.
So, FF sensors are not that difficult and expensive to manufacture -
Well, they are not. According to this article, it costs $300-$400 each to manufacture. That is not a lot of money.
as some marketing white papers would like us to believe.
The cost of manufacturing something rarely has anything to do with the retail price. If you do not believe me, just take a look at the price of a barrel of crude oil. LOL. Or should I say "Crying Out Loud"?
 
On page 11 of the following paper you can read that "the circuit pattern of a fullframe sensor is too large to be projected on the silicon wafer all at once; it requires three separate exposures": http://www.robgalbraith.com/public_files/Canon_Full-Frame_CMOS_White_Paper.pdf

This white paper is often quoted for explaining the high manufacturing cost of FF sensors.
Well, things seem to have changed since 2006.

Yet, the 1Ds still has a ridiculous price tag - despite Canon's own technology advances.
 
Thanks for that link, I found it very interesting.

I don't normally do a great deal of reading about the technical side of sensors, but I found it great!
 
That's pretty cool (it is), but the production cost of a wafer is about the same whatever you put on it. And there is not a whole lot of FF sensors that fit on a single 12" wafer. Add to that even a single imperfection in the silicon already removes a significant percentage of total sensors on the wafer and anything close to the edge has significantly lower yields, and you start to see how the price goes up real quick.

They will be able to fit 20 sensors on a wafer. If you look at the size of a FF v compact, you will be able to fit about 12 compact sensors at the same real estate. That's 20 versus close to 250 sensors per wafer. And if there is a silicon imperfection, that's 19 version 249. The size is really working against them. Not so much the process.
--
Gijs from The Netherlands

Canon 5D + EF 24-105/f4 L IS
Canon 30D + EF-S 17-55/f2.8 IS

Got the equipment, still looking for talent. Please contact me if you find some cheap.
 
"If the sensors are APS-C size, there are about 200 of them on the wafer, depending on layout and the design of the periphery of each sensor. For APS-H, there are about 46 or so. Full-frame sensors? Just 20. Consider, too, that an 8" silicon wafer usually yields 1000 to 2000 LSI (Large-Scale Integrated) circuits. If, say, 20 areas have defects, such as dust or scratches, up to 1980 usable chips remain. With 20 large sensors on a wafer, each sensor is an easy “target.” Damage anywhere ruins the whole sensor. 20 randomly distributed dust and scratch marks could ruin the whole batch."
--
Gijs from The Netherlands

Canon 5D + EF 24-105/f4 L IS
Canon 30D + EF-S 17-55/f2.8 IS

Got the equipment, still looking for talent. Please contact me if you find some cheap.
 
20 FF sensors on 8", but 200 APS-C on 8". And i thought FF "only" has a 2.56 greater area compared to APS-C. Okay, pack a few more APS-C sensors in the corners. But 10 times as much sensors?

Besides i think that you can't compare image sensor yield rate to other circuits that easy, guess a 21 MP sensor could have several ten thousands defect pixels without impact on the perceived image quality (as long as they map them out). Many normal integrated circuits are useless, if only one transistor is defect.
 
"If the sensors are APS-C size, there are about 200 of them on the
wafer, depending on layout and the design of the periphery of each
sensor. For APS-H, there are about 46 or so. Full-frame sensors? Just
20. Consider, too, that an 8" silicon wafer usually yields 1000 to
2000 LSI (Large-Scale Integrated) circuits. If, say, 20 areas have
defects, such as dust or scratches, up to 1980 usable chips remain.
With 20 large sensors on a wafer, each sensor is an easy “target.”
Damage anywhere ruins the whole sensor. 20 randomly distributed dust
and scratch marks could ruin the whole batch."
The only problem with that paragraph is that it is wrong. It implicitly is mixing 8" and 10" wafer data. Canon's APS-C sensors use a 330 square millimetre die. An 8" wafer only has about 31400 square millimetres of litho area. That is considerably less than 100 APS-C sensors, not 200.
 
It's not only a matter of defective pixels, the chips have various connections and support circuits. A defect on one these may render the chip unusable.
20 FF sensors on 8", but 200 APS-C on 8". And i thought FF "only" has
a 2.56 greater area compared to APS-C. Okay, pack a few more APS-C
sensors in the corners. But 10 times as much sensors?

Besides i think that you can't compare image sensor yield rate to
other circuits that easy, guess a 21 MP sensor could have several ten
thousands defect pixels without impact on the perceived image quality
(as long as they map them out). Many normal integrated circuits are
useless, if only one transistor is defect.
--
Best regards,
Doug
http://pbase.com/dougj
 
Well, according to Gordon Moore (the "Moore's Law" guy), the size of computer chip real estate has remained remarkably constant over the past few decades. What happens is not that a square foot of processor is becoming cheaper, what happens is that each processor is becoming smaller - and hence cheaper.

The price per acre is in the billion-dollar ballpark and has been so for a long time. Not good news for camera sensors, obviously, as they are by definition fixed in size.

http://www.engj.ulst.ac.uk/sidk/Moore/092297moore3.html
 
You are right. I just wanted to point out that the prediction of yield rates is that simple. I don't believe the yield rate of canon sensor production isn't far below normal semiconductor production. Just look at the structure size, into one of these giant pixels of image sensors, you could probably fit a whole 8-bit processor with the latest shrink ;)
It's not only a matter of defective pixels, the chips have various
connections and support circuits. A defect on one these may render
the chip unusable.
 
Canon states that zero pixel defects are allowed on their sensors. If a single pixel is out in your camera, they will replace the sensor free of charge regardless of warranty status.

Also, the Core2Quad cpu I have at home, with all of it's 12MB cache in there is maybe a quarter of the size of a FF sensor. That says something about the complexity and engineering of today's CPU's, but it also says something about the massive size of a FF sensor in micro-electronics land.

Point of the matter is, with 20 sensors on a wafer they have everything working against them and that makes for a very expensive piece of circuitry.
--
Gijs from The Netherlands

Canon 5D + EF 24-105/f4 L IS
Canon 30D + EF-S 17-55/f2.8 IS

Got the equipment, still looking for talent. Please contact me if you find some cheap.
 
Well, see my own guesstimates before I quoted the listed document. Regardless, it does not change my point one bit.
--
Gijs from The Netherlands

Canon 5D + EF 24-105/f4 L IS
Canon 30D + EF-S 17-55/f2.8 IS

Got the equipment, still looking for talent. Please contact me if you find some cheap.
 
Yet, the 1Ds still has a ridiculous price tag - despite Canon's own
technology advances.
Not ridiculous, I paid £4800. inc vat, over the next 3 years I will invoice a few £100k with it. It's a camera to make money with. If it had been a £1-2000. more I still would of bought it.
Kevin.
 
That's a very challenging sensor to make, and achieve anything close to an acceptable & cost effective yield. Zero dead pixels for the customer is a great policy, but a zero defects tolerance in manufacturing is costly. I wouldn't be surprised if they do have some defective pixels and just map them out in production. The user will never miss a few pixels.
Canon states that zero pixel defects are allowed on their sensors. If
a single pixel is out in your camera, they will replace the sensor
free of charge regardless of warranty status.

Also, the Core2Quad cpu I have at home, with all of it's 12MB cache
in there is maybe a quarter of the size of a FF sensor. That says
something about the complexity and engineering of today's CPU's, but
it also says something about the massive size of a FF sensor in
micro-electronics land.

Point of the matter is, with 20 sensors on a wafer they have
everything working against them and that makes for a very expensive
piece of circuitry.
--
Gijs from The Netherlands

Canon 5D + EF 24-105/f4 L IS
Canon 30D + EF-S 17-55/f2.8 IS

Got the equipment, still looking for talent. Please contact me if you
find some cheap.
--
Best regards,
Doug
http://pbase.com/dougj
 
Canon states that zero pixel defects are allowed on their sensors. If
a single pixel is out in your camera, they will replace the sensor
free of charge regardless of warranty status.
That is very interesting, never heard of that, can you name a source? Is this only true for the pro cameras?
 
Canon states that zero pixel defects are allowed on their sensors. If
a single pixel is out in your camera, they will replace the sensor
free of charge regardless of warranty status.
I would also like to know where you get the idea that Canon will replace a sensor for a single defective pixel, even out of warranty, for free?
Also, the Core2Quad cpu I have at home, with all of it's 12MB cache
in there is maybe a quarter of the size of a FF sensor. That says
something about the complexity and engineering of today's CPU's, but
it also says something about the massive size of a FF sensor in
micro-electronics land.

Point of the matter is, with 20 sensors on a wafer they have
everything working against them and that makes for a very expensive
piece of circuitry.
--
Gijs from The Netherlands

Canon 5D + EF 24-105/f4 L IS
Canon 30D + EF-S 17-55/f2.8 IS

Got the equipment, still looking for talent. Please contact me if you
find some cheap.
 
That's pretty cool (it is), but the production cost of a wafer is
about the same whatever you put on it.
Only if the wafer goes through the same number of process steps, in the same foundry machines. The whole point about the OPs message is that to date an FF sensor could only be made using a 3-step reticle stitch, increasing the number of process steps for the wafer, reducing yields and significantly impacting costs. Reticle stitching is not required for APS sensors using stepper kit available in most fabs. If Canon have, and there is limited evidence of this, eliminated the stitch process then they will reduce their costs to levels commensurate with conventional chip yield estimates.

Your earlier point is quite correct, the larger the device the fewer you can get on each wafer and the higher the probability of a catastrophic defect being included in any device. This determines yield and hence, given fixed wafer process costs, the device cost. However, reticle stitching changes that model significantly - wafer processing costs increase and yields reduce, both due to the additional number of processes being implemented for reticle stitching.

I have been involved in several designs of sensors requiring reticle stitching and I can assure you it has a major impact on yield, and hence cost, over and above the area effects that you refer to. On a single stitched device, depending on the level of circuit complexity in the stitch region, you can expect yield to fall by as much as 50% (I have seen worse, but that was atypical), while process costs increase by around 20%. With a 3 stitch process I would not be surprised to see yields fall and process costs increase further. That accounts for a significant cost hike over and above the area effects that you are considering.

The OP suggests that Canon may have eliminated the stitching process for FF sensors using their new stepper and hence brought the costs of FF sensors into line with the predictions that your simplified view of life suggests.

The linked article states that recent devices on 1Ds cameras show no visible stitching artefacts (which are usually pretty easy to spot visually) whilst devices from the D3 still clearly show 3 stitch interface artefacts (and shows them in photos).

Irrespective of what you would like everyone to believe, stitching does impact costs - and significantly. Eliminating the requirement for reticle stitching through the use of a larger field coverage stepper, would have a major impact on the cost of FF sensors.
 

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