F8 full frame equivalent on aps-c

Merlin5

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Hi guys. Quick question. I've always just thought f5.6 on aps-c is equivalent to f8 on FF. As google says:

"An f/8 aperture on a full-frame camera is equivalent to an f/5.6 aperture on an APS-C camera, assuming a common 1.5x crop factor."

But then it goes on to say this which has confused me:

"To achieve the same depth of field as f/8 on full-frame, you must multiply the f-stop by the crop factor, so f/8 on full-frame is equivalent to approximately f/11 or f/12 on APS-C, depending on the exact crop."

Could someone explain why two different f-stops are stated for aps-c (f5.6 and f12) as equivalent to f8 on full frame? Thanks.
 
Hi guys. Quick question. I've always just thought f5.6 on aps-c is equivalent to f8 on FF.
That is approximately true. If you want to be precise, the answer is 5.6 muliplied by the crop factor: 5.6 x 1.5 = 8.4; but 8 is usually taken as a reasonable approximation.
 
Hi guys. Quick question. I've always just thought f5.6 on aps-c is equivalent to f8 on FF. As google says:

"An f/8 aperture on a full-frame camera is equivalent to an f/5.6 aperture on an APS-C camera, assuming a common 1.5x crop factor."
This part is true (close enough) for depth of field, which would actually be ~f8.4. Light gathering by the lens is still f5.6.
But then it goes on to say this which has confused me:

"To achieve the same depth of field as f/8 on full-frame, you must multiply the f-stop by the crop factor, so f/8 on full-frame is equivalent to approximately f/11 or f/12 on APS-C, depending on the exact crop."
This is not true, the math is backwards. f8 on full frame would be f12 on a 1.5x crop APS-C. To achieve the FF equivalent depth of field on a 1.5x crop APS-C you would have to divide by the crop factor, to get f6 (or nearest to it, which would likely b f5.6 or f6.3).
Could someone explain why two different f-stops are stated for aps-c (f5.6 and f12) as equivalent to f8 on full frame? Thanks.
Because AI answers suck.
 
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Hi guys. Quick question. I've always just thought f5.6 on aps-c is equivalent to f8 on FF.
That is approximately true. If you want to be precise, the answer is 5.6 muliplied by the crop factor: 5.6 x 1.5 = 8.4; but 8 is usually taken as a reasonable approximation.
Thanks, yes, f5.6 is indeed equivalent to 8.4.
 
Hi guys. Quick question. I've always just thought f5.6 on aps-c is equivalent to f8 on FF. As google says:

"An f/8 aperture on a full-frame camera is equivalent to an f/5.6 aperture on an APS-C camera, assuming a common 1.5x crop factor."
This part is true (close enough) for depth of field, which would actually be ~f8.4. Light gathering by the lens is still f5.6.
But then it goes on to say this which has confused me:

"To achieve the same depth of field as f/8 on full-frame, you must multiply the f-stop by the crop factor, so f/8 on full-frame is equivalent to approximately f/11 or f/12 on APS-C, depending on the exact crop."
This is not true, the math is backwards. f8 on full frame would be f12 on a 1.5x crop APS-C. To achieve the FF equivalent depth of field on a 1.5x crop APS-C you would have to divide by the crop factor, to get f6 (or nearest to it, which would likely b f5.6 or f6.3).
Could someone explain why two different f-stops are stated for aps-c (f5.6 and f12) as equivalent to f8 on full frame? Thanks.
Because AI answers suck.
Yeah, AI certainly sucks here! Thanks, yes, it does seem to be incorrectly saying multiply full frame f8 by 1.5x crop factor instead of divide f8 by 1.5x. I thought there was some additional f- stop knowledge I wasn't aware of but you've cleared that up for me.

Regarding the light gathering you mentioned at 5.6, can you confirm or correct me if I've got this right or not. At 5.6 on aps-c, the amount of light hitting the sensor is about the same as the amount of light hitting the sensor at f8 on a full frame because the sensor is larger. And so there's the same amount of light and DOF on aps-c at 5.6 as f8 on FF?
 
It isn't just AI, the internet is unreliable. I could now write anything here with no editorial contol. Books and magazines are at least edited and sub-edited after chosing reputable authors.
 
Regarding the light gathering you mentioned at 5.6, can you confirm or correct me if I've got this right or not. At 5.6 on aps-c, the amount of light hitting the sensor is about the same as the amount of light hitting the sensor at f8 on a full frame because the sensor is larger. And so there's the same amount of light and DOF on aps-c at 5.6 as f8 on FF?
This is complicated. The aperture and focal length of a lens are properties of the lens, and do not change simply because the sensor is smaller. An f2.0 lens is an f2.0 lens regardless if it's on a full frame camera or APS-C camera or any other sensor. This means exposure settings will be the same regardless.

On a 1.5x crop APS-C sensor a f2.0 50mm lens will have the field of view and depth of field that a 75mm lens would have on a full frame sensor. But it's still an f2.0 lens, and if correct exposure requires ISO 100 and 1/500th of a second shutter speed, it'll need ISO 100 and 1/500th on an APS-C camera. You don't need to raise ISO on the APS-C camera; doing so will overexpose the image.

This is because the amount of light hitting the sensor per unit of area is the same. For example, if a bucket gathers 10 raindrops/second/square foot, an Olympic sized swimming pool also gathers 10 raindrops/second/square foot.

As for how much total light the sensor is actually gathering, yes, the full frame sensor gathers more light than an APS-C sensor. Again though, this does not change exposure settings. Because a smaller sensor gathers less light overall, the signal-to-noise ratio is less favorable. Thus a smaller sensor will have more grain/noise than a larger sensor, assuming equal technology.

If you take a pic with a FF and APS-C camera and use identical settings, the full frame camera will have less noise. If you're trying to match noise levels, that means you'll have to lower the ISO on the APS-C camera by about 1-1.5 stops. It's tricky making these comparisons though because sensor tech varies between cameras, in-camera noise reduction varies (both automatically and by user settings), etc. The amount of digital gain that ISO settings provide should be relatively universal because it's part of the "exposure triangle", but the amount of noise this creates in your image will vary by camera.

For example, many users of the Canon R5 noticed that when they switched to the R5 Mk II that there was more noise in their images. Not because it exposed differently, or because the sensor was smaller (it's exactly the same size), but because the sensor was different (stacked instead of unstacked) and produced more noise at the same ISO settings. But the R5 Mk II will definitely produce less noise than an EOS 1D from 2002.

Thus, direct mathematical corollaries aren't always going to be exact; a 1.5x crop doesn't necessarily mean you'll have 1.5x the noise, or need to drop ISO 1.5x and slow your shutter speed by 1.5x to match the noise of a FF camera. It's not a bad rough guess though.

Does this explain things, or did I just confuse you more?
 
Hi guys. Quick question. I've always just thought f5.6 on aps-c is equivalent to f8 on FF. As google says:

"An f/8 aperture on a full-frame camera is equivalent to an f/5.6 aperture on an APS-C camera, assuming a common 1.5x crop factor."
This part is true (close enough) for depth of field, which would actually be ~f8.4. Light gathering by the lens is still f5.6.
Does it apply to phones with hypothetical f/5.6 lenses as well?
 
Regarding the light gathering you mentioned at 5.6, can you confirm or correct me if I've got this right or not. At 5.6 on aps-c, the amount of light hitting the sensor is about the same as the amount of light hitting the sensor at f8 on a full frame because the sensor is larger. And so there's the same amount of light and DOF on aps-c at 5.6 as f8 on FF?
Right (assuming equivalent FL's). It is not complicated at all.

Search this site for Equivalence.
 
Hi guys. Quick question. I've always just thought f5.6 on aps-c is equivalent to f8 on FF. As google says:

"An f/8 aperture on a full-frame camera is equivalent to an f/5.6 aperture on an APS-C camera, assuming a common 1.5x crop factor."

But then it goes on to say this which has confused me:

"To achieve the same depth of field as f/8 on full-frame, you must multiply the f-stop by the crop factor, so f/8 on full-frame is equivalent to approximately f/11 or f/12 on APS-C, depending on the exact crop."

Could someone explain why two different f-stops are stated for aps-c (f5.6 and f12) as equivalent to f8 on full frame? Thanks.
The simple rule is that with the same subject, same aperture diameter, same shutter speed and same angle of view, you get the same results.

By "same results", I mean same framing, same depth of field, same diffraction issues, and same overall image noise.

Notice that I said "aperture diameter" not f/stop. The f/stop is the "relative aperture". it's the ratio of the physical focal length to the aperture diameter. "f/4" literally means that the aperture diameter is the focal length divided by 4. A 50mm lens at f/4 has an aperture diameter of 12.5mm. A 100mm lens at f/4 has an aperture diameter of 25mm.

.

I like to use 2X crop bodies as an example because the math is easier.

Consider a full frame body with a 50mm lens at f/8. That's an angle of view of 46° and an aperture diameter of 6.25mm (50mm/8).

On a 2X crop body a 25mm lens would give you that same 46° angle of view. With that 25mm lens, f/4 would give you that same 6.25mm aperture diameter.

Therefore at the same shutter speed, with the same subject, a full frame with a 50mm lens at f/8 will give you the same results as a 2X crop body with a 25mm lens at f/4.

While it is tempting to say that f/4 on a 2X crop body is the same as f/8 on a full frame, you need to be careful. In terms of "exposure" they are not the same. "Exposure" is measured in the light per unit area. This is critical if you are shooting film. f/8 results in 25% of the light per unit area as f/4 (that's a two stop difference). However, the full frame sensor has four times the area as a 2X crop body, so the full frame at f/8 captures the same number of photons as the 2X crop at f/4.

It all balances out.

.

Some "APS-C" bodies are about a 1.5X crop. For a 46° angle of view, you need a 33mm lens. To get that 6.25mm aperture diameter the 33mm lens needs to be at f/5.3. Therefore we know that a 1.5X crop body (APS-C) with a 33mm lens at f/5.3 will give us the same results as a full frame with a 50mm lens at f/8.
 
Hi guys. Quick question. I've always just thought f5.6 on aps-c is equivalent to f8 on FF. As google says:

"An f/8 aperture on a full-frame camera is equivalent to an f/5.6 aperture on an APS-C camera, assuming a common 1.5x crop factor."

But then it goes on to say this which has confused me:

"To achieve the same depth of field as f/8 on full-frame, you must multiply the f-stop by the crop factor, so f/8 on full-frame is equivalent to approximately f/11 or f/12 on APS-C, depending on the exact crop."
The 1.5x factor should have been applied to the top line, not the lower… 1.5x (f/8)
Could someone explain why two different f-stops are stated for aps-c (f5.6 and f12) as equivalent to f8 on full frame? Thanks.
No good ever comes of puzzling over “equivalence” statements.
 
This part is true (close enough) for depth of field, which would actually be ~f8.4. Light gathering by the lens is still f5.6.
Does it apply to phones with hypothetical f/5.6 lenses as well?
Any camera. Phones these days though usually have an aperture larger than f2. For example, the new iPhone Pro Max has a f1.78 and the Galaxy S24 Ultra and Pixel 10 Pro have f1.7 main camera apertures. That's why they tend to do pretty well in low light despite the dinky sensor. That and a lot of computational wizardry.

The iPhone has a 1/1.28" sensor with a crop factor of 3.55, so f1.78 has a FF equivalent DoF of f6.3.
 
This part is true (close enough) for depth of field, which would actually be ~f8.4. Light gathering by the lens is still f5.6.
Does it apply to phones with hypothetical f/5.6 lenses as well?
Any camera. Phones these days though usually have an aperture larger than f2. For example, the new iPhone Pro Max has a f1.78 and the Galaxy S24 Ultra and Pixel 10 Pro have f1.7 main camera apertures. That's why they tend to do pretty well in low light despite the dinky sensor. That and a lot of computational wizardry.

The iPhone has a 1/1.28" sensor with a crop factor of 3.55, so f1.78 has a FF equivalent DoF of f6.3.
So you are saying that the tiny lens of my phone, if I were to stop it down somehow (I wonder why I can’t) to f/5.6, would gather the same light as my FF f/5.6 lenses?
 
This part is true (close enough) for depth of field, which would actually be ~f8.4. Light gathering by the lens is still f5.6.
Does it apply to phones with hypothetical f/5.6 lenses as well?
Any camera. Phones these days though usually have an aperture larger than f2. For example, the new iPhone Pro Max has a f1.78 and the Galaxy S24 Ultra and Pixel 10 Pro have f1.7 main camera apertures. That's why they tend to do pretty well in low light despite the dinky sensor. That and a lot of computational wizardry.

The iPhone has a 1/1.28" sensor with a crop factor of 3.55, so f1.78 has a FF equivalent DoF of f6.3.
So you are saying that the tiny lens of my phone, if I were to stop it down somehow (I wonder why I can’t) to f/5.6, would gather the same light as my FF f/5.6 lenses?
I'm saying the exposure would be the same. I said "light gathering", and that was a bit of a mis-speak. The amount of light hitting the sensor (intensity) is the same, and exposure would be the same, given same ISO and shutter speed. Obviously a full frame lens would gather more light overall, but it'd be irrelevant on a phone because the sensor is still tiny and a lot of of that light would "miss".

Aperture is relative to the focal length, and these tiny lenses have a very small focal length. On an iPhone 17 Pro Max the "24mm lens" actually has a focal length of 6.765mm, requiring only a 3.8mm iris to be f1.78 (I think I did the math right). The smaller the sensor, the smaller the required image circle, the shorter the required actual focal length, and thus the smaller the lens needs to be. Makes maintaining a larger aperture easier.

The Samsung S9 and S10 (and the Plus versions) apparently had a dual aperture, and the upcoming S26 line might have a variable one. The Xiaomi 14 Ultra has an f1.6-f4 aperture, add the Huawei Mate X6 foldable will apparently have a variable one too. Back in the day the Lumix DMC-CM1was an Android 5.0 smartphone with a 1" sensor and a variable aperture.
 
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Skinner's law: Discussions about equivalence never get to satisfactory conclusions, except about field of view.
 
Thanks to everyone that replied, much appreciated! Yeah, seems a bit more complicated than I thought but I've got the gist of it. :)
 
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Thanks to everyone that replied, much appreciated! Yeah, seems a bit more complicated than I thought but I've got the gist of it. :)
The simple answer is that you multiply the physical focal length and the f/stop by the crop factor.

For example, a 1.5X crop body with a 50mm lens at f/4, you gets you the same results as a full frame camera with a 75mm lens at f/6.
 
Thanks to everyone that replied, much appreciated! Yeah, seems a bit more complicated than I thought but I've got the gist of it. :)
The simple answer is that you multiply the physical focal length and the f/stop by the crop factor.

For example, a 1.5X crop body with a 50mm lens at f/4, you gets you the same results as a full frame camera with a 75mm lens at f/6.
Thanks. On my Ricoh, it has a fixed lens of 18.3mm so effectively 28mm equivalent. I've been setting it to f8 and forgetting that I could have just set it to f5.6.
 
It is my opinion that one need only be concerned about equivalence if one is using cameras with different sensor sizes. Otherwise one rapidly becomes familiar with the performance of given lens and aperture setting .
 
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It is my opinion that one need only be concerned about equivalence if one is using cameras with different sensor sizes. Otherwise one rapidly becomes familiar with the performance of given lens and aperture setting .
Equivalence matters to me on the small end because of diffraction. For example, I'm considering the R7 II when (if) it comes out to pair with a supertelephoto. The RF 100-400mm f5.6-8 with the 1.6x crop means I'd suffer diffraction because it's equivalent to f12.8. The 100-500mm f4.5-7.1 is a bit better at f11.3. I'd rather keep it at f11 or under, but the additional zoom probably outweighs the effects of diffraction when compared to the EF 100-400mm f4.5-5.6. I can stop down my 70-350mm f4.5-6.3 to f7.1 for an extra touch of sharpness because equivalency keeps it at f10.65, if I don't need the extra brightness to keep shutter speed higher.

Blah blah blibbity blah.

If you use a crop sensor body, equivalency needs to be accounted for when using darker telephoto lenses or when stopping down for depth of field (landscapes, macro, etc).

It's less important on the wide end of things. If you worry too much about making a crop sensor get that "full frame look", then you just need to get the brightest lens you can find. Or you should have just gotten a full frame camera instead. Otherwise, just worry about taking good photos and less about what your equivalent aperture is.
 

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