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Ethics Question

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gnaztee

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I took a picture in a church in NYC last summer of what I thought was a very nice moment, but it was also a private moment, of an elderly man praying at a shrine (if my terminology is incorrect, forgive me, I'm not a religious person). I'm wondering if it's unethical to post this online (say on DP Review or PPG). Obviously, I won't post it here unless there is popular support for it being okay.

What do you folks think?
--
Todd
http://www.naskedov.zenfolio.com
 
gnaztee said:
I took a picture in a church in NYC last summer of what I thought was
a very nice moment, but it was also a private moment, of an elderly
man praying at a shrine (if my terminology is incorrect, forgive me,
I'm not a religious person). I'm wondering if it's unethical to post
this online (say on DP Review or PPG). Obviously, I won't post it
here unless there is popular support for it being okay.

What do you folks think?
--
Todd
http://www.naskedov.zenfolio.com
Click to expand...
Hi Todd!

If you ask yourself (and us), suppose you already know the answer.

My 2 lipas :)

Regards,
--
Nikola
 
Law-wise I cannot answer that.

But I think you already respect that person from your post, so that is a step in a good direction and I think that your intentions are good (placing your concern for the person before anything else).

If it has no commercial purpose, I think it is ok to display it as art (say PPG) but not here, as it can be subject to bad comments, etc.

If possible, try contacting this person and asking for permission. If it is not feasible, then see to it that you can request PPG to remove the image in case the mentioned person contacts you in the future and asks for removal. If this isn't possible either, then you can feel a bit more relieved because you tried.

This concern is good, but don't fall into the excess of constricting yourself.

Hope this helps you.
 
Private is private. Why even ask? People on a beach chasing a ball might be different but someone in church in front of a shrine is touching on deep personal values. Get his permission or don't publish. Remember, ethics is doing the right thing when no-one is watching.
--
jamesza
 
person that you yook the pic of, obviously is, and, as such HIS privacy should be protected. NO you should not be displaying it ANYWHERE, let alone here, where it could get some nasty comments. Delete the picture, or at the very least crop, or clone the person out. It was his private moment, and should not be violated by you, or anyone else.
--
Regards Allan.
 
Otherwise enjoy your photo and keep it as a personal treasure.

We are not talking breakiing news here with a certain public interest and so privacy should not be violated.

--
.......
Have a nice day (a picture is worth a thousand words)
Jim

Link to Pentax SLR Forum Best images:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=23551175

Inspiration Challenge - in depth feedback guaranteed

dotnik:
'Don't overestimate technology - nothing is knowledgefree'

Gray weather is no excuse:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=23468947

 
is the person recognizable? If it's from the back, and it probably is, I don't see a problem. I have a shot of two young people embracing in a park. That's a private moment. I have a shot of a Mixtec woman with her son on her shoulders as they watch a clown at a Christmas party. I have a picture of mourners at a funeral.

I took a picture of a man kneeling in front of an altar in a local hospice. It was from the side and when he finished praying and was leaving I showed him the photo on the LCD and asked if he minded me keeping it. He said he didn't. I returned two days later and gave him a print of the picture.

There are a lot of discussions about private versus public places and they are usually wrong on points of law. As an ethical matter, if it's open to the public and doesn't prohibit photography, I take pictures.

I believe Catholic churches can have both an altar and shrines. Protestant churches generally just have altars.
--
Patrick T. Kelly
Oaxaca, Mexico
 
Patrick, there is difference between ethics and legal issues. Public spaces might give you the right to photograph people legally but that does not mean it is ethical.

The OP wanted to know the ethics of his dilemma, not the legalities. The question has been adequately answered.
--
jamesza
 
As for law/rule I am not 100% sure. However I am 100% sure of the "one" of rules of ethics, and this is from ethics training "do unto others as you would want others to do to you" if you would have no problem with someone posting a pic of you, as far as your ethics its OK; if not, then its not OK. Another possibility is your inner being does not like the idea (that's your morals), and follow it. So you have two ways of looking at it, is it ethically OK, and does your morals say its OK.

--
jamesm007

http://s195.photobucket.com/albums/z77/jamesm700/
 
My simple rule would be 'when in doubt, leave it out'. It may well be perfectly fine but if you're at all uncertain, then my suggestion would be to err on the safe side out of respect to the person you photographed.
--
Robert
rgm-wa
 
As a deeply religious and consequently a praying man, I would have no problem whatsoever with someone taking my photo while I was praying. I would not even have a problem with someone posting said photo in the public arena. I mean, where is the harm? Someone would find out that I believe in a God that is so personal and cares for me so much that He listens to my prayers??? However, that said, I WOULD definitely take exception to someone profiting from that photo without my permission, or to its use in a forum that would bring ridicule upon me or my God.
--
Takumar Lover
 
It's very common to see photographers "snapping away" at very religious sites in Japan, China, and India while people are at prayer. I've seen MANY published photos of single people and groups in "private moments", praying in temples, shrines, and churches in far-away lands ... does the photographer always get signed permission from all of the people in the photo?
 
One way you can solve this problem is contact the church. Ask them if they can identify the person and then get permission from him to use the image. If her can not be identified in the image it is your call. Put the image in Photoshop so he can not be identified.
 
I am a true believer in personal freedom to the fullest, but I doubt I would publish it if the person was in the "privacy" of a Church and I did not know them or have their approval. We never know the circumstance that was surrounding the person praying, and it could be harmful ...even though the chance is small. If they are in a very public place, all bets are off....but a Church is a very private sanctuary for some. (Others, just a place to take a short nap on Sunday morning)

Kind of like the picture my youngest Son took of me in the bathtub many years ago with my Yellow rubber Ducky....you won't see it here! I still have the little Ducky, it is such fun to watch him swim and bob around!
--
'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!
 
Ask yourself why you need a signed model release when you submit images to stock agencies or any other publisher and you will understand that this is also a legal question.

--

There are two kinds of light--the glow that illuminates, and the glare that obscures.
  • James Thurber
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/ralfprien
 
546xatnep said:
It's very common to see photographers "snapping away" at very
religious sites in Japan, China, and India while people are at
prayer. I've seen MANY published photos of single people and groups
in "private moments", praying in temples, shrines, and churches in
far-away lands ... does the photographer always get signed permission
from all of the people in the photo?
Click to expand...
I guess people rarely get signed permissions and most of the time nothing happens. They are either not aware of this or they make calculated risks.

You should just be aware of the consequences if you publish a photo of people in a situation they don't want to be seen in because it might mean it could by used against them even though you or they had no idea. With a permission or model release form you are protected from such lawsuits. Good to know especially if you made money with that image. That could really cost you.

--
.......
Have a nice day (a picture is worth a thousand words)
Jim

Link to Pentax SLR Forum Best images:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=23551175

Inspiration Challenge - in depth feedback guaranteed

dotnik:
'Don't overestimate technology - nothing is knowledgefree'

Gray weather is no excuse:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=23468947

 
Okay, there seems to be some mixed opinions on this, which makes me reluctant to use the picture. I want to get a couple of things straight though:

1) I'm no pro, and I certainly have no desire to make money off of the shot. I just thought it was a nice moment (and photo, I think) that I could share with people. In fact, I was taking a picture of the shrine before the man walked up to it, so my original intent was to get a no-person picture, but he made it something poignant, I thought. There were dozens of people in the church (it was one of the large, middle of Manhattan churches), and I didn't chase him into a secluded area, but I understand it still may be a private moment for him. So as far as legality, that isn't a concern for me, but I don't want people to respond negatively to the pic, nor would I want the man to feel violated if he were to see it posted for the masses.

2) to the poster that seemed to imply that I would care less about privacy in this instance because I mentioned I'm not religious, go back and read my original post again. I only mentioned that to cover my ignorance in not knowing the difference between shrine/altar.

Thanks for your replies, they were thoughtful and helpful. I will probably post the picture on my personal site, but won't be doing so here or submitting to PPG or anything, so as to minimize public viewing.
--
Todd
http://www.naskedov.zenfolio.com
 
dotnik said:
546xatnep said:
It's very common to see photographers "snapping away" at very
religious sites in Japan, China, and India while people are at
prayer. I've seen MANY published photos of single people and groups
in "private moments", praying in temples, shrines, and churches in
far-away lands ... does the photographer always get signed permission
from all of the people in the photo?
Click to expand...
I guess people rarely get signed permissions and most of the time
nothing happens. They are either not aware of this or they make
calculated risks.

You should just be aware of the consequences if you publish a photo
of people in a situation they don't want to be seen in because it
might mean it could by used against them even though you or they had
no idea.
Click to expand...
If the subjects are in a public place, they shouldn't put themselves in such a compromising position. It's not the photographer's fault.
 
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