'Embedded' profile and DNG -- what's going on?

[Rob de Loe]

This question starts from a Ricoh GR IIIx DNG file in Lightroom Classic 14.2, but it may not be Ricoh-specific so I'm hoping someone will recognize what's going on.

I downloaded GR IIIx DNG files prior to purchasing the camera. This one in particular from Barney Britton's samples had a colour palette I found pleasing. In Lightroom Classic (14.2) the DNG was tagged on import with a camera profile called 'Embedded'; some edits are also embedded, and were respected by Lightroom. Clicking 'Reset' puts the sliders back to 0 and sets the profile to Adobe Color.

'Embedded' is a profile that only shows in the Lightroom profile browser if you specifically tell LR to show you legacy profiles.

Here's the mystery: when I reset Barney's file and apply the legacy 'Embedded' profile, I'm getting colours that are not the same as any of the other profiles on my system. The Embedded profile adjusts temp and tint, but when I reset those values the colours are still different from every other profile I have on my system (whether Adobe default profiles or camera matching profiles). It's closest to Adobe Standard, but the differences in blues are obvious.

I'd like to understand what's going on here.

 

[Rob de Loe]

This may be the answer: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/68175677

 

[ishwanu]

This may be the answer: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/68175677

That's not much of an answer - just some copied AI text that says what we would expect. Also, that thread is about DNGs generated by RAW conversion software.

In your other thread you asked this:

Normally Lightroom ignores in camera profile choices when working with RAW files. Why is it respecting this one, and where do you choose whatever this is in the camera?

I assume you would still like an answer to that. Could it be that the DNG you're dealing with is not direct from the camera? I couldn't even download it; the link has apparently expired.

If it is direct from the camera, people knowledgeable about the camera and Lightroom's behavior might be able to answer.

 

[Rob de Loe]

This question starts from a Ricoh GR IIIx DNG file in Lightroom Classic 14.2, but it may not be Ricoh-specific so I'm hoping someone will recognize what's going on.

I downloaded GR IIIx DNG files prior to purchasing the camera. This one in particular from Barney Britton's samples had a colour palette I found pleasing. In Lightroom Classic (14.2) the DNG was tagged on import with a camera profile called 'Embedded'; some edits are also embedded, and were respected by Lightroom. Clicking 'Reset' puts the sliders back to 0 and sets the profile to Adobe Color.

This link should work: https://www.dpreview.com/sample-galleries/5482325071/ricoh-gr-iiix-sample-gallery/6280829825

'Embedded' is a profile that only shows in the Lightroom profile browser if you specifically tell LR to show you legacy profiles.

Here's the mystery: when I reset Barney's file and apply the legacy 'Embedded' profile, I'm getting colours that are not the same as any of the other profiles on my system. The Embedded profile adjusts temp and tint, but when I reset those values the colours are still different from every other profile I have on my system (whether Adobe default profiles or camera matching profiles). It's closest to Adobe Standard, but the differences in blues are obvious.

I'd like to understand what's going on here.

 

[Rob de Loe]

This may be the answer: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/68175677

That's not much of an answer - just some copied AI text that says what we would expect. Also, that thread is about DNGs generated by RAW conversion software.

Yes, the whole thread is about DNG created by RAW conversion software, but the link in one of the posts to this page from RawTherapee was very helpful:

Making a camera profile with DCamProf

I'm used to Fuji RAFs. It seems DNG is not just another RAW file. There's a lot going on.

The good news, for me, is that the profile that is embedded in the DNG is just about exactly what I'm looking for.

In your other thread you asked this:

Normally Lightroom ignores in camera profile choices when working with RAW files. Why is it respecting this one, and where do you choose whatever this is in the camera?

I assume you would still like an answer to that. Could it be that the DNG you're dealing with is not direct from the camera? I couldn't even download it; the link has apparently expired.

Link is fixed in a post just above this one. Sorry about that.

Good question re whether the file is direct from the camera. I don't know. Files I import also show adjustments to temp and tiny when I apply the Embedded profile, but Barney's sample file includes adjustments to tone, and that is not happening with my files.

If it is direct from the camera, people knowledgeable about the camera and Lightroom's behavior might be able to answer.

 

[ishwanu]

This may be the answer: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/68175677

That's not much of an answer - just some copied AI text that says what we would expect. Also, that thread is about DNGs generated by RAW conversion software.

Yes, the whole thread is about DNG created by RAW conversion software, but the link in one of the posts to this page from RawTherapee was very helpful:

https://rawtherapee.com/mirror/dcamprof/camera-profiling.html#dng_profiles

I'm used to Fuji RAFs. It seems DNG is not just another RAW file. There's a lot going on.

The good news, for me, is that the profile that is embedded in the DNG is just about exactly what I'm looking for.

In your other thread you asked this:

Normally Lightroom ignores in camera profile choices when working with RAW files. Why is it respecting this one, and where do you choose whatever this is in the camera?

I assume you would still like an answer to that. Could it be that the DNG you're dealing with is not direct from the camera? I couldn't even download it; the link has apparently expired.

Link is fixed in a post just above this one. Sorry about that.

Okay, that should be direct from the camera.

Good question re whether the file is direct from the camera. I don't know.

EXIF says it is:

Software : RICOH GR IIIx Ver. 1.00

If a RAW converter produced it, that tag would normally show the software name.

Files I import also show adjustments to temp and tiny when I apply the Embedded profile, but Barney's sample file includes adjustments to tone, and that is not happening with my files.

If it is direct from the camera, people knowledgeable about the camera and Lightroom's behavior might be able to answer.

 

[Rob de Loe]

Link is fixed in a post just above this one. Sorry about that.

Okay, that should be direct from the camera.

Good question re whether the file is direct from the camera. I don't know.

EXIF says it is:

Software : RICOH GR IIIx Ver. 1.00

If a RAW converter produced it, that tag would normally show the software name.

Interesting.

I think this isn't widely reported because most people who buy this camera seem to like the JPEG recipes, so they don't get into the weeds of the DNG.

I'm not interested in the JPEG recipes, so I'm looking for a good RAW starting point. I'm delighted that the one that is hidden in the DNG itself is actually the best fit for what I need. Serendipity is my friend on this one.

 

[DougOB]

This may be the answer: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/68175677

That's not much of an answer - just some copied AI text that says what we would expect. Also, that thread is about DNGs generated by RAW conversion software.

Yes, the whole thread is about DNG created by RAW conversion software, but the link in one of the posts to this page from RawTherapee was very helpful:

https://rawtherapee.com/mirror/dcamprof/camera-profiling.html#dng_profiles

I'm used to Fuji RAFs. It seems DNG is not just another RAW file. There's a lot going on.

The good news, for me, is that the profile that is embedded in the DNG is just about exactly what I'm looking for.

In your other thread you asked this:

Normally Lightroom ignores in camera profile choices when working with RAW files. Why is it respecting this one, and where do you choose whatever this is in the camera?

I assume you would still like an answer to that. Could it be that the DNG you're dealing with is not direct from the camera? I couldn't even download it; the link has apparently expired.

Link is fixed in a post just above this one. Sorry about that.

Okay, that should be direct from the camera.

Good question re whether the file is direct from the camera. I don't know.

EXIF says it is:

Software : RICOH GR IIIx Ver. 1.00

As a side issue I would recommend upgrading to the lastest firmware on your GR IIIX, v1.42. There are a lot of new feature and bug fixes.

Doug

If a RAW converter produced it, that tag would normally show the software name.

Files I import also show adjustments to temp and tiny when I apply the Embedded profile, but Barney's sample file includes adjustments to tone, and that is not happening with my files.

If it is direct from the camera, people knowledgeable about the camera and Lightroom's behavior might be able to answer.

 

[Rob de Loe]

As a side issue I would recommend upgrading to the lastest firmware on your GR IIIX, v1.42. There are a lot of new feature and bug fixes.

Doug

Thanks Doug. My camera says I'm on 1.42.

The image the other poster looked at is one from several years ago posted as a DNG sample by Barney Britton from DPReview.