does the D30 metering system su......

[Gary37301]

Sorry for the slightly obnoxious title and the long post, but I wanted to get a lot of readers…

I have had my D30 since Feb, (I was one of the lucky ones to pay full price) and like others I love it for the beautiful images it can provide. However, I have become very frustrated with the metering system. Like others that have posted, I find that it often underexposes by ½ to 1 stop in situations where my old point and shoot cameras would expose just fine. If it was consistent I could just set the exposure comp and forget it, but I find that it is extremely sensitive to the location of the focus rectangle that is used for metering, a slight movement of the focus point can make a huge difference in exposure.

I just got it back from its second trip to Canon Factory Service. They sent me a nice form letter telling me that its flash metering system is within factory specs and I just don’t understand how it works (which may well be true). They must have a lot of exposure complaints to have a 2-page form letter at the ready.

Now I admit that I am a rank amateur, so I want to get some opinions from people who understand the exposure system better than I.

I have read (in this forum) and it seems logical that a correctly exposed image has a centered histogram. Is this not true? The metering system in my camera seems to try and get the subject in the center of the histogram at all costs, even if it means that there is NO information in the histogram beyond the halfway point (ie. the subject is the brightest thing). I would think that an “evaluative” exposure mode would try and keep the subject somewhere in the brighter half of the histogram, with its actual location being dependant on how much information exists in the image that is brighter than the subject, with a goal being a reasonably centered histogram. Is this wrong?

I also think that it is odd that I have never seen any significant difference between the different metering modes, especially between evaluative and partial. Moving the focus point a very small amount will usually make a far bigger difference. In fact my experience would lead me to believe that the evaluative mode is doing spot metering.

Below are a number of sample images I have taken to test the metering; I would love to have feedback on them from those in the know. Is my camera really working as a $3000 camera should? Is it working correctly but just a poor metering design? Or do you think that there is really something wrong with it?

All the pictures below have the histogram and a portion of the EXIF data superimposed on them:

2 indoor natural light images, first with the default auto exposure and the second using AELock to set the exposure from a darker area of the image:





Similar subject, this time with 550EX flash, without and with +2/3 flash exp. comp:





Still another indoor natural light shot showing how it makes the subject the center of the histogram in spite of the fact that it is the brightest thing in the scene. This is intelligent metering????? Am I missing something?



Here are 2 indoor flash shots where again the default exposure seems too dark, and a flash exposure comp of +2/3 seems more correct:





Finally, a set of images showing how the different metering modes make virtually no difference in the exposure of the images:











My experience so far tells me that there are 2 ways to get good low light exposures (my camera seems to have no trouble in bright outdoor lighting):

- ignore the subject and always AELock on a portion of the scene that is 50% bright

- set a +2/3 exposure and flash exposure compensation, and hope the subject isn’t so dark relative to the rest of the scene that it will blow out the highlights
Either one is quite a pain when trying to shoot quickly

What do you all think?

Finally, to add insult to injury, even though Canon did not do anything to fix the exposure of my camera, they did something to the viewfinder so that now when the shot is in focus it looks out of focus in the viewfinder! I tried moving the diopter thru its entire range with no luck. Anyone else have this problem and know what is wrong?

Sorry again for the long post, I hope this is a valid use for this forum. Thanks for any help.

Gary

 

[DonCohen]

Hi Gary,

I think you're getting close to understanding metering in an SLR vs a point-and-shoot camera. I think this is one of the most frequently confused and misunderstood subjects when making the transition from those two types of photography.

John Shaw's books (see for example Field Guide to Nature Photography) has excellent explanations of how a camera's meter works, and how to use it to get the kind of exposure you want. The following is copied from an email I have sent to several people also coming to grips with this issue:

Basically, a camera's light meter is designed to select camera settings in order to make the area it's metering a "neutral" tone. That means not too dark, not too light, but in the middle. Grey instead of black or white; a medium blue instead of light or dark blue.

So if you want the metered area in a picture you're taking to be neutral, the camera will give you what you want. If the image is composed primarily of neutral type tones, there's no problem. But let's say much of the area being metered is white, and you want that area to be white in the image. The camera "thinks" you want it to be neutral, so selects settings to make it grey. Your impression is that it's underexposed, when in reality, it's just doing what it think you wanted it to do: render a neutral tone. The only want to get what you want is to increase EV, by say 1 diopter. EV of +1 would translate to a more bright tone, closer to white, an EV of +2 would be very bright white.

Conversely, let's say the area you're metering contains a lot of dark area, which you want to be dark in the final picture. Without any EV compensation, the camera will render it as a neutral tone, and it will appear to you to have overexposed the picture. You have to decrease the EV by 1 or 2, depending on how dark you want it to appear in the final image.

The D30 has 3 ways of metering: center-weighted, spot-metering, and evaluative or an average kind of reading. Each will give different results, and EV will need to be adjust differently, depending on which setting is chosen, and what area is being metered. And certain scenes will do better with one metering method than another, so you need to choose a method appropriate to the situation.

I used to think that making EV adjustments was somehow compensating for the meter's not working as it was supposed to, but now realize that it enables you to utilize the camera's metering system to create the type of exposure you want.

Does this help? I think you're wanting the camera to do all the "work" in determining correct exposures, like your prior point-and-shoot cameras did, but with a camera like the D30, you need to be more aware of what you're shooting, and you're making more of the decisions, not the camera. Yes, it does require a bit more effort and understanding, but oh, the control it gives you to create the kind of exposure you want. Ultimately, the photographer is smarter than the camera.

Don
http://www.dlcphotography.net

 

[Paul Juhn]

Hi Gary,

I have had my D30 since June, I knew this problem much long ago from this forum.(So-called calibration - I hate to talk about this anymore)

My camera has similar problems but the reasons that I haven't sent it to Canon are
1)I need D30 always and I still can make nice pictures with PS6.
(I do Auto level and sharpening almost always)
2)I do not trust Canon service.(Your proved it!)
3)Under-exposure may be better than over-exposure
4)I am not 100% sure if my camera's meter is faulty.
(Perfect histogram does not mean correct exposure)
(I did many different test like you did though)

Now I have 550EX, the flash metering seems to be quite accurate to me.
SO until I am 100% sure, I will just keep shooting.

Sorry for the slightly obnoxious title and the long post, but I
wanted to get a lot of readers…

I have had my D30 since Feb, (I was one of the lucky ones to pay
full price) and like others I love it for the beautiful images it
can provide. However, I have become very frustrated with the
metering system. Like others that have posted, I find that it often
underexposes by ½ to 1 stop in situations where my old point and
shoot cameras would expose just fine. If it was consistent I could
just set the exposure comp and forget it, but I find that it is
extremely sensitive to the location of the focus rectangle that is
used for metering, a slight movement of the focus point can make a
huge difference in exposure.

I just got it back from its second trip to Canon Factory Service.
They sent me a nice form letter telling me that its flash metering
system is within factory specs and I just don’t understand
how it works (which may well be true). They must have a lot of
exposure complaints to have a 2-page form letter at the ready.

Now I admit that I am a rank amateur, so I want to get some
opinions from people who understand the exposure system better than
I.

I have read (in this forum) and it seems logical that a correctly
exposed image has a centered histogram. Is this not true? The
metering system in my camera seems to try and get the subject in
the center of the histogram at all costs, even if it means that
there is NO information in the histogram beyond the halfway point
(ie. the subject is the brightest thing). I would think that an
“evaluative” exposure mode would try and keep the
subject somewhere in the brighter half of the histogram, with its
actual location being dependant on how much information exists in
the image that is brighter than the subject, with a goal being a
reasonably centered histogram. Is this wrong?

I also think that it is odd that I have never seen any significant
difference between the different metering modes, especially between
evaluative and partial. Moving the focus point a very small amount
will usually make a far bigger difference. In fact my experience
would lead me to believe that the evaluative mode is doing spot
metering.

Below are a number of sample images I have taken to test the
metering; I would love to have feedback on them from those in the
know. Is my camera really working as a $3000 camera should? Is it
working correctly but just a poor metering design? Or do you think
that there is really something wrong with it?

All the pictures below have the histogram and a portion of the EXIF
data superimposed on them:

2 indoor natural light images, first with the default auto exposure
and the second using AELock to set the exposure from a darker area
of the image:





Similar subject, this time with 550EX flash, without and with +2/3
flash exp. comp:





Still another indoor natural light shot showing how it makes the
subject the center of the histogram in spite of the fact that it is
the brightest thing in the scene. This is intelligent metering?????
Am I missing something?



Here are 2 indoor flash shots where again the default exposure
seems too dark, and a flash exposure comp of +2/3 seems more
correct:





Finally, a set of images showing how the different metering modes
make virtually no difference in the exposure of the images:











My experience so far tells me that there are 2 ways to get good low
light exposures (my camera seems to have no trouble in bright
outdoor lighting):
- ignore the subject and always AELock on a portion of the scene
that is 50% bright
- set a +2/3 exposure and flash exposure compensation, and hope the
subject isn’t so dark relative to the rest of the scene that
it will blow out the highlights
Either one is quite a pain when trying to shoot quickly

What do you all think?

Finally, to add insult to injury, even though Canon did not do
anything to fix the exposure of my camera, they did something to
the viewfinder so that now when the shot is in focus it looks out
of focus in the viewfinder! I tried moving the diopter thru its
entire range with no luck. Anyone else have this problem and know
what is wrong?

Sorry again for the long post, I hope this is a valid use for this
forum. Thanks for any help.

Gary

 

[Gary37301]

Don,

thanks for your reply. I will try to check out some of these reference books. I can accept that the basic concept of SLR metering is to set a neutral point, but then why have a complex multi-zone "evaluative" mode?

While I agree that for creative work you should not be afraid to make EV adjustments, modern SLRs take great pains to have fully automatic modes for those lazy snapshot shooting sessions. Given the tremendous complexity of a modern SLR, I cannot believe that they cannot add an AE mode that gives you a good average point and shoot style of exposure in addition to full creative control. Promoting a "fullly automatic" SLR with the exception of having to futz with EV adjustments is not consistent (or even ethical).

And even accepting the fact that metering shoots for neutral, why is there never any significant difference between Evaluative and Partial? For all the examples I have tried, it is a total waste to offer both. It sure would be nice if the manual had a good explaination of the actual algorythm that each mode uses.

thanks,

Gary

Hi Gary,

I think you're getting close to understanding metering in an SLR vs
a point-and-shoot camera. I think this is one of the most
frequently confused and misunderstood subjects when making the
transition from those two types of photography.

John Shaw's books (see for example Field Guide to Nature
Photography) has excellent explanations of how a camera's meter
works, and how to use it to get the kind of exposure you want. The
following is copied from an email I have sent to several people
also coming to grips with this issue:

Basically, a camera's light meter is designed to select camera
settings in order to make the area it's metering a "neutral" tone.
That means not too dark, not too light, but in the middle. Grey
instead of black or white; a medium blue instead of light or dark
blue.

So if you want the metered area in a picture you're taking to be
neutral, the camera will give you what you want. If the image is
composed primarily of neutral type tones, there's no problem. But
let's say much of the area being metered is white, and you want
that area to be white in the image. The camera "thinks" you want
it to be neutral, so selects settings to make it grey. Your
impression is that it's underexposed, when in reality, it's just
doing what it think you wanted it to do: render a neutral tone.
The only want to get what you want is to increase EV, by say 1
diopter. EV of +1 would translate to a more bright tone, closer to
white, an EV of +2 would be very bright white.

Conversely, let's say the area you're metering contains a lot of
dark area, which you want to be dark in the final picture. Without
any EV compensation, the camera will render it as a neutral tone,
and it will appear to you to have overexposed the picture. You
have to decrease the EV by 1 or 2, depending on how dark you want
it to appear in the final image.

The D30 has 3 ways of metering: center-weighted, spot-metering, and
evaluative or an average kind of reading. Each will give different
results, and EV will need to be adjust differently, depending on
which setting is chosen, and what area is being metered. And
certain scenes will do better with one metering method than
another, so you need to choose a method appropriate to the
situation.

I used to think that making EV adjustments was somehow compensating
for the meter's not working as it was supposed to, but now realize
that it enables you to utilize the camera's metering system to
create the type of exposure you want.

Does this help? I think you're wanting the camera to do all the
"work" in determining correct exposures, like your prior
point-and-shoot cameras did, but with a camera like the D30, you
need to be more aware of what you're shooting, and you're making
more of the decisions, not the camera. Yes, it does require a bit
more effort and understanding, but oh, the control it gives you to
create the kind of exposure you want. Ultimately, the photographer
is smarter than the camera.

Don
http://www.dlcphotography.net

 

[John L.41003]

Don,

thanks for your reply. I will try to check out some of these
reference books. I can accept that the basic concept of SLR
metering is to set a neutral point, but then why have a complex
multi-zone "evaluative" mode?

While I agree that for creative work you should not be afraid to
make EV adjustments, modern SLRs take great pains to have fully
automatic modes for those lazy snapshot shooting sessions. Given
the tremendous complexity of a modern SLR, I cannot believe that
they cannot add an AE mode that gives you a good average point and
shoot style of exposure in addition to full creative control.

Gary,

I see your point, but really - dow would a camera know what you want out of the picture? How does it "know" that the white horse against the dark field is not a grey horse? Creativity needs to come from the mind. No one can replace the mind with technology - computes don't even come close to doing that. There are some things that we as humans must ultimately decide. A camera sees grey - we see a much wider color spectrum. We decide what color something should be in the final print. The camera makes everything grey (exposure-wise not color) and we go from there. Besides if there were cameras that decieded "everything" for us - where would the creativity (other than composition) come in. That's what makes one a good photographer. Ansel Adams is a fantastic example of what controlling exposure can do for a picture. If had let the meter decide all his shots - we would not be enjoying his photography years after his death. Don't be afraid to get creative - especially with digital - film is free and the experience will last you a lifetime.

Just my .02 cents.

John L.

Promoting a "fullly automatic" SLR with the exception of having to
futz with EV adjustments is not consistent (or even ethical).

And even accepting the fact that metering shoots for neutral, why
is there never any significant difference between Evaluative and
Partial? For all the examples I have tried, it is a total waste to
offer both. It sure would be nice if the manual had a good
explaination of the actual algorythm that each mode uses.

thanks,

Gary

Hi Gary,

I think you're getting close to understanding metering in an SLR vs
a point-and-shoot camera. I think this is one of the most
frequently confused and misunderstood subjects when making the
transition from those two types of photography.

John Shaw's books (see for example Field Guide to Nature
Photography) has excellent explanations of how a camera's meter
works, and how to use it to get the kind of exposure you want. The
following is copied from an email I have sent to several people
also coming to grips with this issue:

Basically, a camera's light meter is designed to select camera
settings in order to make the area it's metering a "neutral" tone.
That means not too dark, not too light, but in the middle. Grey
instead of black or white; a medium blue instead of light or dark
blue.

So if you want the metered area in a picture you're taking to be
neutral, the camera will give you what you want. If the image is
composed primarily of neutral type tones, there's no problem. But
let's say much of the area being metered is white, and you want
that area to be white in the image. The camera "thinks" you want
it to be neutral, so selects settings to make it grey. Your
impression is that it's underexposed, when in reality, it's just
doing what it think you wanted it to do: render a neutral tone.
The only want to get what you want is to increase EV, by say 1
diopter. EV of +1 would translate to a more bright tone, closer to
white, an EV of +2 would be very bright white.

Conversely, let's say the area you're metering contains a lot of
dark area, which you want to be dark in the final picture. Without
any EV compensation, the camera will render it as a neutral tone,
and it will appear to you to have overexposed the picture. You
have to decrease the EV by 1 or 2, depending on how dark you want
it to appear in the final image.

The D30 has 3 ways of metering: center-weighted, spot-metering, and
evaluative or an average kind of reading. Each will give different
results, and EV will need to be adjust differently, depending on
which setting is chosen, and what area is being metered. And
certain scenes will do better with one metering method than
another, so you need to choose a method appropriate to the
situation.

I used to think that making EV adjustments was somehow compensating
for the meter's not working as it was supposed to, but now realize
that it enables you to utilize the camera's metering system to
create the type of exposure you want.

Does this help? I think you're wanting the camera to do all the
"work" in determining correct exposures, like your prior
point-and-shoot cameras did, but with a camera like the D30, you
need to be more aware of what you're shooting, and you're making
more of the decisions, not the camera. Yes, it does require a bit
more effort and understanding, but oh, the control it gives you to
create the kind of exposure you want. Ultimately, the photographer
is smarter than the camera.

Don
http://www.dlcphotography.net

 

[Andrew Grant27981]

Don,

thanks for your reply. I will try to check out some of these
reference books. I can accept that the basic concept of SLR
metering is to set a neutral point, but then why have a complex
multi-zone "evaluative" mode?

Actually, all cameras (SLR or P&S) meter scenes the same way (Nikon's color matrix metering aside). Digital cameras are just less forgiving of metering errors. P&S cameras do not have as many metering modes of course.

While I agree that for creative work you should not be afraid to
make EV adjustments, modern SLRs take great pains to have fully
automatic modes for those lazy snapshot shooting sessions. Given
the tremendous complexity of a modern SLR, I cannot believe that
they cannot add an AE mode that gives you a good average point and
shoot style of exposure in addition to full creative control.
Promoting a "fullly automatic" SLR with the exception of having to
futz with EV adjustments is not consistent (or even ethical).

Judging from your images, your camera is metering correctly. Most of the images had a lot of white or other light colors in the scene. The camera assumed the scene was grey.

IMHO Fully automatic cameras work best with color negative film. The resulting exposure errors are corrected at the lab. However, it is very easy to check the exposure of your image with the D30's histogram, dial in the indicated compensation and reshoot.

And even accepting the fact that metering shoots for neutral, why
is there never any significant difference between Evaluative and
Partial? For all the examples I have tried, it is a total waste to
offer both. It sure would be nice if the manual had a good
explaination of the actual algorythm that each mode uses.

Again, I think there was too much white in your images. Partial metering would behave differently in a high contrast or backlit scene.

 

[kurt]

It's interesting how many people mis-understand or forget the following:

-When switching from film SLR to D-30... there is exposure compensation applied by the lab on your prints as they are printed. The D-30 is the equiv of a raw negative... how would your film prints come out if the equipment or operator did absolutely no exposure compensation on the print?

-When switching from a P&S digital to the D-30... the P&S device attempted to duplicate the exposure compensation (and add sharpening) that film labs would do to create output... this is so people can plug their P&S digi-cam into their computer and dump straight to a printer with no darkroom work...

The D-30 outputs (digital) negatives.... It attempts to set exposure on the negative to protect the information (no blown highlights), and since the D-30 has such good noise characteristics in shadow detail, they can be somewhat aggressive about leaning towards the underexposure side...

(this isn't saying there aren't some D-30's out there that leaned too much to the underexposure side...)

The core issue/statment about complaints like this:

"They decided not to put the ability in the camera to "process and output" exposure compensated and sharpened pics ready to go directly to the printer...."

So... create an action in PS that runs auto-level, and does whatever else you usually end up doing for 4x7 and 5x7 prints. (color adjustment, sharpening, etc) and "lab process" your snapshots in photoshop...

Then, you still have the raw, usable high-quality negatives for anything you want to manually work in your "Darkroom" for printing 8x10's or larger.

I won't even address the actual metering, and the decisions the camera makes to work toward 18%... others have covered that...

This is the "program mode" complaint.. that people want P&S "ready to print" output out of the D-30, especially since they paid so much $ for it...

...it's just not there, directly from the camera...

.. and the answer is.... make a P&S action in photoshop, and batch process all of our P&S prints...

...sometimes the more expensive, more capable, more accurate tools, don't include final processing, since a user who would wish that level of accuracy and capability on the front end, is assumed to want to control the final processing in an advanced complimentary back-end tool like Photoshop.

-Kurt

thanks for your reply. I will try to check out some of these
reference books. I can accept that the basic concept of SLR
metering is to set a neutral point, but then why have a complex
multi-zone "evaluative" mode?

While I agree that for creative work you should not be afraid to
make EV adjustments, modern SLRs take great pains to have fully
automatic modes for those lazy snapshot shooting sessions. Given
the tremendous complexity of a modern SLR, I cannot believe that
they cannot add an AE mode that gives you a good average point and
shoot style of exposure in addition to full creative control.
Promoting a "fullly automatic" SLR with the exception of having to
futz with EV adjustments is not consistent (or even ethical).

And even accepting the fact that metering shoots for neutral, why
is there never any significant difference between Evaluative and
Partial? For all the examples I have tried, it is a total waste to
offer both. It sure would be nice if the manual had a good
explaination of the actual algorythm that each mode uses.

thanks,

Gary

Hi Gary,

I think you're getting close to understanding metering in an SLR vs
a point-and-shoot camera. I think this is one of the most
frequently confused and misunderstood subjects when making the
transition from those two types of photography.

John Shaw's books (see for example Field Guide to Nature
Photography) has excellent explanations of how a camera's meter
works, and how to use it to get the kind of exposure you want. The
following is copied from an email I have sent to several people
also coming to grips with this issue:

Basically, a camera's light meter is designed to select camera
settings in order to make the area it's metering a "neutral" tone.
That means not too dark, not too light, but in the middle. Grey
instead of black or white; a medium blue instead of light or dark
blue.

So if you want the metered area in a picture you're taking to be
neutral, the camera will give you what you want. If the image is
composed primarily of neutral type tones, there's no problem. But
let's say much of the area being metered is white, and you want
that area to be white in the image. The camera "thinks" you want
it to be neutral, so selects settings to make it grey. Your
impression is that it's underexposed, when in reality, it's just
doing what it think you wanted it to do: render a neutral tone.
The only want to get what you want is to increase EV, by say 1
diopter. EV of +1 would translate to a more bright tone, closer to
white, an EV of +2 would be very bright white.

Conversely, let's say the area you're metering contains a lot of
dark area, which you want to be dark in the final picture. Without
any EV compensation, the camera will render it as a neutral tone,
and it will appear to you to have overexposed the picture. You
have to decrease the EV by 1 or 2, depending on how dark you want
it to appear in the final image.

The D30 has 3 ways of metering: center-weighted, spot-metering, and
evaluative or an average kind of reading. Each will give different
results, and EV will need to be adjust differently, depending on
which setting is chosen, and what area is being metered. And
certain scenes will do better with one metering method than
another, so you need to choose a method appropriate to the
situation.

I used to think that making EV adjustments was somehow compensating
for the meter's not working as it was supposed to, but now realize
that it enables you to utilize the camera's metering system to
create the type of exposure you want.

Does this help? I think you're wanting the camera to do all the
"work" in determining correct exposures, like your prior
point-and-shoot cameras did, but with a camera like the D30, you
need to be more aware of what you're shooting, and you're making
more of the decisions, not the camera. Yes, it does require a bit
more effort and understanding, but oh, the control it gives you to
create the kind of exposure you want. Ultimately, the photographer
is smarter than the camera.

Don
http://www.dlcphotography.net

 

[Al Goldis]

It's interesting how many people mis-understand or forget the
following:

-When switching from film SLR to D-30... there is exposure
compensation applied by the lab on your prints as they are printed.
The D-30 is the equiv of a raw negative... how would your film
prints come out if the equipment or operator did absolutely no
exposure compensation on the print?

-When switching from a P&S digital to the D-30... the P&S device
attempted to duplicate the exposure compensation (and add
sharpening) that film labs would do to create output... this is so
people can plug their P&S digi-cam into their computer and dump
straight to a printer with no darkroom work...

The D-30 outputs (digital) negatives.... It attempts to set
exposure on the negative to protect the information (no blown
highlights), and since the D-30 has such good noise characteristics
in shadow detail, they can be somewhat aggressive about leaning
towards the underexposure side...

(this isn't saying there aren't some D-30's out there that leaned
too much to the underexposure side...)

The core issue/statment about complaints like this:

"They decided not to put the ability in the camera to "process and
output" exposure compensated and sharpened pics ready to go
directly to the printer...."

So... create an action in PS that runs auto-level, and does
whatever else you usually end up doing for 4x7 and 5x7 prints.
(color adjustment, sharpening, etc) and "lab process" your
snapshots in photoshop...

Then, you still have the raw, usable high-quality negatives for
anything you want to manually work in your "Darkroom" for printing
8x10's or larger.

I won't even address the actual metering, and the decisions the
camera makes to work toward 18%... others have covered that...

This is the "program mode" complaint.. that people want P&S "ready
to print" output out of the D-30, especially since they paid so
much $ for it...

...it's just not there, directly from the camera...

.. and the answer is.... make a P&S action in photoshop, and batch
process all of our P&S prints...

...sometimes the more expensive, more capable, more accurate tools,
don't include final processing, since a user who would wish that
level of accuracy and capability on the front end, is assumed to
want to control the final processing in an advanced complimentary
back-end tool like Photoshop.

-Kurt

 

[Gary41969]

John,

thanks for your post.

Cameras "know" what we want out of pictures using programmed algorythms based on reasonable assumptions. Automatic cameras are full of such algorythms (evaluative, partial, ctr wtd ave, the Canon green rectangle, etc.). I could turn your horse question around on you, why should it assume that my subject should not be among the brightest items in the frame? It is not a matter of color, it is a matter of brightness. I could suggest an automatic exposure algorythm that I think would work for me. Since the eval mode knows the brightness at many zones in the image, it could compare the subject to all the zones, and if the subject is the brightest thing, raise it to 75% bright. If not, adjust the exposure so that nothing is blown out and the subject is still at 50% or greater (if this is not possible, do what it does today). In effect this would be a slightly more sophisticated version of the PS auto levels function. Also I would ask, if there is not a reasonable algorythm based on the shape and position of the histogram, why is it so important to people that they can see it after each shot? I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of D30 users look at the histogram after a shot and if it is not centered they adjust the exposure and shoot again. Why not offer an exposure mode that does this very simple thing automatically for you? It doesn't need to be the only mode.

Please note that I am not arguing against creative control. I love (and use) the ability to control all elements of a shot, and that is why I have this camera instead of my previous 3 digitals. But I am greatly disappointed that it is very difficult to take advantage of the D30's gorgeous imager to capture my newborn son's first fleeting smiles. By the time you use AE or FE lock, take a sample and check the histogram, etc, the shot is often long gone. The great Ansel Adams had the decided advantage of photographing VERY still lifes (lives?). I really don't think that it is too much to ask that a $3K camera offer BOTH creative control and automatic simplicity. And remember that there is a huge amount of creativity in being able to capture the perfect moment, not just the perfect exposure. If there wasn't, there wouldn't be Pulitzer prizes for photo journalists.

While I really do enjoy this philosophical banter, my real goal is to find if my camera is working as intended. Do others out there think that their D30's would perform the same as mine in these test examples? And if it is working correctly, the large number of posts that I have seen in these forums from people feeling that their D30's underexpose (not to mention the 2 page Canon form letter), betray the fact that Canon's set of exposure assumptions are not as good as other mfrs. I have not heard consistent complaints like these with other cameras, nor have I experienced them with my 3 previous digitals and 1 35mm SLR.

I need to decide if I have to push Canon to do something with the exposure when I send it back for them to fix the viewfinder that they screwed up.

thanks,

Gary

I see your point, but really - dow would a camera know what you
want out of the picture? How does it "know" that the white horse
against the dark field is not a grey horse? Creativity needs to
come from the mind. No one can replace the mind with technology -
computes don't even come close to doing that. There are some things
that we as humans must ultimately decide. A camera sees grey - we
see a much wider color spectrum. We decide what color something
should be in the final print. The camera makes everything grey
(exposure-wise not color) and we go from there. Besides if there
were cameras that decieded "everything" for us - where would the
creativity (other than composition) come in. That's what makes one
a good photographer. Ansel Adams is a fantastic example of what
controlling exposure can do for a picture. If had let the meter
decide all his shots - we would not be enjoying his photography
years after his death. Don't be afraid to get creative - especially
with digital - film is free and the experience will last you a
lifetime.

Just my .02 cents.

John L.

Promoting a "fullly automatic" SLR with the exception of having to
futz with EV adjustments is not consistent (or even ethical).

And even accepting the fact that metering shoots for neutral, why
is there never any significant difference between Evaluative and
Partial? For all the examples I have tried, it is a total waste to
offer both. It sure would be nice if the manual had a good
explaination of the actual algorythm that each mode uses.

thanks,

Gary

Hi Gary,

I think you're getting close to understanding metering in an SLR vs
a point-and-shoot camera. I think this is one of the most
frequently confused and misunderstood subjects when making the
transition from those two types of photography.

John Shaw's books (see for example Field Guide to Nature
Photography) has excellent explanations of how a camera's meter
works, and how to use it to get the kind of exposure you want. The
following is copied from an email I have sent to several people
also coming to grips with this issue:

Basically, a camera's light meter is designed to select camera
settings in order to make the area it's metering a "neutral" tone.
That means not too dark, not too light, but in the middle. Grey
instead of black or white; a medium blue instead of light or dark
blue.

So if you want the metered area in a picture you're taking to be
neutral, the camera will give you what you want. If the image is
composed primarily of neutral type tones, there's no problem. But
let's say much of the area being metered is white, and you want
that area to be white in the image. The camera "thinks" you want
it to be neutral, so selects settings to make it grey. Your
impression is that it's underexposed, when in reality, it's just
doing what it think you wanted it to do: render a neutral tone.
The only want to get what you want is to increase EV, by say 1
diopter. EV of +1 would translate to a more bright tone, closer to
white, an EV of +2 would be very bright white.

Conversely, let's say the area you're metering contains a lot of
dark area, which you want to be dark in the final picture. Without
any EV compensation, the camera will render it as a neutral tone,
and it will appear to you to have overexposed the picture. You
have to decrease the EV by 1 or 2, depending on how dark you want
it to appear in the final image.

The D30 has 3 ways of metering: center-weighted, spot-metering, and
evaluative or an average kind of reading. Each will give different
results, and EV will need to be adjust differently, depending on
which setting is chosen, and what area is being metered. And
certain scenes will do better with one metering method than
another, so you need to choose a method appropriate to the
situation.

I used to think that making EV adjustments was somehow compensating
for the meter's not working as it was supposed to, but now realize
that it enables you to utilize the camera's metering system to
create the type of exposure you want.

Does this help? I think you're wanting the camera to do all the
"work" in determining correct exposures, like your prior
point-and-shoot cameras did, but with a camera like the D30, you
need to be more aware of what you're shooting, and you're making
more of the decisions, not the camera. Yes, it does require a bit
more effort and understanding, but oh, the control it gives you to
create the kind of exposure you want. Ultimately, the photographer
is smarter than the camera.

Don
http://www.dlcphotography.net

 

[Gary41969]

Andrew,

thanks for the reply, and no this is my fourth digital: 2 Oly p&s, and an E10.

Don,

thanks for your reply. I will try to check out some of these
reference books. I can accept that the basic concept of SLR
metering is to set a neutral point, but then why have a complex
multi-zone "evaluative" mode?

Actually, all cameras (SLR or P&S) meter scenes the same way
(Nikon's color matrix metering aside). Digital cameras are just
less forgiving of metering errors. P&S cameras do not have as many
metering modes of course.

While I agree that for creative work you should not be afraid to
make EV adjustments, modern SLRs take great pains to have fully
automatic modes for those lazy snapshot shooting sessions. Given
the tremendous complexity of a modern SLR, I cannot believe that
they cannot add an AE mode that gives you a good average point and
shoot style of exposure in addition to full creative control.
Promoting a "fullly automatic" SLR with the exception of having to
futz with EV adjustments is not consistent (or even ethical).

Judging from your images, your camera is metering correctly. Most
of the images had a lot of white or other light colors in the
scene. The camera assumed the scene was grey.

thanks, I am trying to determine if it is working as designed

IMHO Fully automatic cameras work best with color negative film.
The resulting exposure errors are corrected at the lab. However, it
is very easy to check the exposure of your image with the D30's
histogram, dial in the indicated compensation and reshoot.

It did occur to me that the photo labs could be correcting for this, but I shot 35mm slides for 10 years and I thought that photo labs did no corrections on slides.

Yes, you can look at the histogram, compensate and reshoot, unless of course the shot is long gone. And I know I sound like a whiner, but as a mech engr who has done a lot of programming, I know it would be trivial to make an AE mode that replicates what people do when they look at the histogram to compensate. It could easily adjust the exposure to center the histogram for you. Sure it would not always be correct, but as an optional mode there would be many times that it would be better than 90% effective.

And even accepting the fact that metering shoots for neutral, why
is there never any significant difference between Evaluative and
Partial? For all the examples I have tried, it is a total waste to
offer both. It sure would be nice if the manual had a good
explaination of the actual algorythm that each mode uses.

Again, I think there was too much white in your images. Partial
metering would behave differently in a high contrast or backlit
scene.

 

[Gary41969]

Kurt,

thanks for the well stated post. I have a few comments and questions below:

It's interesting how many people mis-understand or forget the
following:

-When switching from film SLR to D-30... there is exposure
compensation applied by the lab on your prints as they are printed.
The D-30 is the equiv of a raw negative... how would your film
prints come out if the equipment or operator did absolutely no
exposure compensation on the print?

I have thought about this, but I spent 10 yrs shooting 35mm slides in a Canon EOS 10S without seeing these kinds of exposure problems. I thought that slides (unlike prints) were not subjerct to exposure comp by the lab. Am I wrong?

-When switching from a P&S digital to the D-30... the P&S device
attempted to duplicate the exposure compensation (and add
sharpening) that film labs would do to create output... this is so
people can plug their P&S digi-cam into their computer and dump
straight to a printer with no darkroom work...

The D-30 outputs (digital) negatives.... It attempts to set
exposure on the negative to protect the information (no blown
highlights), and since the D-30 has such good noise characteristics
in shadow detail, they can be somewhat aggressive about leaning
towards the underexposure side...

I certainly agree with a (slight) bias to underexposure since blown out highlights are the absolute worst result. But in my experience, it is often miles away from that, the upper half of the histogram is often empty. And despite how good the D30 is on noise, you still pick up significant noise when adjusting this far in PS. In fact, in some of my tests, after compensating in PS, the noise level can easily get to be about where it was with my Oly C2020.

(this isn't saying there aren't some D-30's out there that leaned
too much to the underexposure side...)

The core issue/statment about complaints like this:

"They decided not to put the ability in the camera to "process and
output" exposure compensated and sharpened pics ready to go
directly to the printer...."

I believe that exposure comp and sharpening are 2 very different animals. Exposure comp is applied BEFORE the data is captured while sharpening is applied AFTER. This means that there is no real loss to applying sharpening outside the camera while exposure comp. can never be applied outside the camera without suffering noise consequences.

So... create an action in PS that runs auto-level, and does
whatever else you usually end up doing for 4x7 and 5x7 prints.
(color adjustment, sharpening, etc) and "lab process" your
snapshots in photoshop...

as I said above, doing it in PS results in a lower quality image (noisier) than if the exposure was correct before capturing the pixels.

Then, you still have the raw, usable high-quality negatives for
anything you want to manually work in your "Darkroom" for printing
8x10's or larger.

As above, due to noise concerns in the current state of the digital art, a poorly exposed digital negative is fundamentally of lower quality. It is much the same situation as with zoom scale, a digital image must be captured much closer to the magnification you want it, since digital negatives cannot withstand enlargement anywhere near as well as color film (at least for now).

I won't even address the actual metering, and the decisions the
camera makes to work toward 18%... others have covered that...

This is the "program mode" complaint.. that people want P&S "ready
to print" output out of the D-30, especially since they paid so
much $ for it...

...it's just not there, directly from the camera...

.. and the answer is.... make a P&S action in photoshop, and batch
process all of our P&S prints...

...sometimes the more expensive, more capable, more accurate tools,
don't include final processing, since a user who would wish that
level of accuracy and capability on the front end, is assumed to
want to control the final processing in an advanced complimentary
back-end tool like Photoshop.

and I accept that for things that can be done equally well outside of the camera.

Thanks for the valuable discussion.

Gary

-Kurt

thanks for your reply. I will try to check out some of these
reference books. I can accept that the basic concept of SLR
metering is to set a neutral point, but then why have a complex
multi-zone "evaluative" mode?

While I agree that for creative work you should not be afraid to
make EV adjustments, modern SLRs take great pains to have fully
automatic modes for those lazy snapshot shooting sessions. Given
the tremendous complexity of a modern SLR, I cannot believe that
they cannot add an AE mode that gives you a good average point and
shoot style of exposure in addition to full creative control.
Promoting a "fullly automatic" SLR with the exception of having to
futz with EV adjustments is not consistent (or even ethical).

And even accepting the fact that metering shoots for neutral, why
is there never any significant difference between Evaluative and
Partial? For all the examples I have tried, it is a total waste to
offer both. It sure would be nice if the manual had a good
explaination of the actual algorythm that each mode uses.

thanks,

Gary

Hi Gary,

I think you're getting close to understanding metering in an SLR vs
a point-and-shoot camera. I think this is one of the most
frequently confused and misunderstood subjects when making the
transition from those two types of photography.

John Shaw's books (see for example Field Guide to Nature
Photography) has excellent explanations of how a camera's meter
works, and how to use it to get the kind of exposure you want. The
following is copied from an email I have sent to several people
also coming to grips with this issue:

Basically, a camera's light meter is designed to select camera
settings in order to make the area it's metering a "neutral" tone.
That means not too dark, not too light, but in the middle. Grey
instead of black or white; a medium blue instead of light or dark
blue.

So if you want the metered area in a picture you're taking to be
neutral, the camera will give you what you want. If the image is
composed primarily of neutral type tones, there's no problem. But
let's say much of the area being metered is white, and you want
that area to be white in the image. The camera "thinks" you want
it to be neutral, so selects settings to make it grey. Your
impression is that it's underexposed, when in reality, it's just
doing what it think you wanted it to do: render a neutral tone.
The only want to get what you want is to increase EV, by say 1
diopter. EV of +1 would translate to a more bright tone, closer to
white, an EV of +2 would be very bright white.

Conversely, let's say the area you're metering contains a lot of
dark area, which you want to be dark in the final picture. Without
any EV compensation, the camera will render it as a neutral tone,
and it will appear to you to have overexposed the picture. You
have to decrease the EV by 1 or 2, depending on how dark you want
it to appear in the final image.

The D30 has 3 ways of metering: center-weighted, spot-metering, and
evaluative or an average kind of reading. Each will give different
results, and EV will need to be adjust differently, depending on
which setting is chosen, and what area is being metered. And
certain scenes will do better with one metering method than
another, so you need to choose a method appropriate to the
situation.

I used to think that making EV adjustments was somehow compensating
for the meter's not working as it was supposed to, but now realize
that it enables you to utilize the camera's metering system to
create the type of exposure you want.

Does this help? I think you're wanting the camera to do all the
"work" in determining correct exposures, like your prior
point-and-shoot cameras did, but with a camera like the D30, you
need to be more aware of what you're shooting, and you're making
more of the decisions, not the camera. Yes, it does require a bit
more effort and understanding, but oh, the control it gives you to
create the kind of exposure you want. Ultimately, the photographer
is smarter than the camera.

Don
http://www.dlcphotography.net

 

[Doug Walker]

I certainly agree with a (slight) bias to underexposure since blown
out highlights are the absolute worst result. But in my experience,
it is often miles away from that, the upper half of the histogram
is often empty. And despite how good the D30 is on noise, you still
pick up significant noise when adjusting this far in PS. In fact,
in some of my tests, after compensating in PS, the noise level can
easily get to be about where it was with my Oly C2020.

I picked up this tip here in this group a few days ago (can't remember who posted it) for brightening images in PhotoShop. It works better than Auto Levels or playing with brightness and contrast. Here goes:
=====================================

"I used this process to lighten the dark photo that I found better than levels: (Try it!) I even did it in action / batch mode and completed 400 hundred piuctures in about 30 minutes with minimal effort.
CORRECTING UNDEREXPOSED PICTURES WITH PHOTOSHOP

Correcting underexposed shots:

Follow along open your picture.

• Image/Duplicate/OK

• Image/Mode/Grayscale/OK

• Filter/Gaussian Blur ( give a factor 4.0) OK

• Now select your original file leaving the copy open

• Original selected:

• Select/Load Selection (Channel Black) Check Invert OK
• Edit Fill/ Use: 50% Gray / Opacity: 100% (experiment with it) Mode: Color

Dodge (you can apply this more than once using different Opacity's)
That's it!!!

You can hide the selection (marching ants) from View/Hide Edges if it bothers you looking at it but don't forget you have it hidden.

underexposure correction jtgraphics suggests is pretty foolproof/automatic (go slow and follow all the steps). You can get a similar effect with curves but it takes some experience (I would stick with the Duplicated and Fill with Dodge method).

A couple of other things. If it does too much, use the "FADE" under Filters in PS5.5 and Edit in PS6.0). If it is not enough then do the fill a second time (this will certainly be too much, so fade it -- probably to less than 20% remeber you are working between 100% and 200% with the second fill ). The advantage of this over refilling with different numbers is that you can see the effect as you move the Fade slider.

Basically it is the same math as jtgraphics, but it gives you more control and MORE importantly you keep everything in the same file so you can do a one button."
=====================================
Try it you'll like it.

Doug Walker

 

[Andrew Grant27981]

Andrew,

thanks for the reply, and no this is my fourth digital: 2 Oly p&s,
and an E10.

Ah, so you have already experianced the digital learning curve. Was the metering more accurate on those other cameras? Do you still have any of them. Have you tried comparison shooting with them back to back.

thanks, I am trying to determine if it is working as designed

Did it go back to Canon for calibration? Have you tried shooting a grey or white card and checking the image values.

IMHO Fully automatic cameras work best with color negative film.
The resulting exposure errors are corrected at the lab. However, it
is very easy to check the exposure of your image with the D30's
histogram, dial in the indicated compensation and reshoot.

It did occur to me that the photo labs could be correcting for
this, but I shot 35mm slides for 10 years and I thought that photo
labs did no corrections on slides.

I think you are right. Slide film (which I never shot) is supposed to be the same as shooting digital. Do you have an EOS film SLR you could load with slide film and do back to back comparisons with.

Yes, you can look at the histogram, compensate and reshoot, unless
of course the shot is long gone. And I know I sound like a whiner,
but as a mech engr who has done a lot of programming, I know it
would be trivial to make an AE mode that replicates what people do
when they look at the histogram to compensate. It could easily
adjust the exposure to center the histogram for you. Sure it would
not always be correct, but as an optional mode there would be many
times that it would be better than 90% effective.

I have wondered about this myself. The problem is there really is no one correct exposure for many images. It is a judgement call by the photographer. With a digital or slide film

Do you shoot RAW? If so convert to 16bit Tiff, it takes level adjustments much better. Slight underexposure is easy to fix with the D30 unlike over exposure.

 

[Andrew Grant27981]

I have thought about this, but I spent 10 yrs shooting 35mm slides
in a Canon EOS 10S without seeing these kinds of exposure problems.
I thought that slides (unlike prints) were not subjerct to exposure
comp by the lab. Am I wrong?

Given or prior experiance, your D30 is starting to sound faulty.

I certainly agree with a (slight) bias to underexposure since blown
out highlights are the absolute worst result. But in my experience,
it is often miles away from that, the upper half of the histogram
is often empty. And despite how good the D30 is on noise, you still
pick up significant noise when adjusting this far in PS. In fact,
in some of my tests, after compensating in PS, the noise level can
easily get to be about where it was with my Oly C2020.

If the upper half of the histogram is often empty that sounds like a faulty camera to me. The examples you showed indicated less than a stop of underexposure.

 

[DavidP #28649]

If the D-30 would actually decode the color information first, before taking the picture, it could then determine (or at least make a good guess) at the overall reflectivity of the scene, and better determine how much exposure compensation is required.

That's how camcorders work, and I think is the principle behind Nikon's RGB-metering system. (Someone will correct me if I'm wrong about that, I'm sure).

At any rate, the D-30 doesn't do that. Color information is only determined AFTER the exposure has been made.

The "evaluative" mode can solve many common exposure problems, like a back-lit subject, for example. It does this through some fairly sophisticated algorithms, comparing the light levels from the current scene to those stored in memory, for proper exposure compensation.

But, when a scene is overall very light (like snow, for example), or very dark, there's just no way for the camera to "know" that the scene is like this. The photographer has to make the compensation.

Now, with negative film, it may SEEM like the camera is metering better . . but that's only because negative film is more forgiving of exposure mistakes (especially over-exposure). The D-30 is more like slide film -- very unforgiving of exposure mistakes, and NO forgiveness if you've overexposed.

Another misconception you mentioned in another post. A "good exposure" is NOT necessarily centered. That's only true for a very neturally balanced picture.

If the overall scene is very light, then a proper exposure will have a histogram that's shifted to the right. A dark scene will have a histogram that's shifted to the left.

 

[Gary41969]

Doug,

thanks for the tip, I will try it

Gary

I certainly agree with a (slight) bias to underexposure since blown
out highlights are the absolute worst result. But in my experience,
it is often miles away from that, the upper half of the histogram
is often empty. And despite how good the D30 is on noise, you still
pick up significant noise when adjusting this far in PS. In fact,
in some of my tests, after compensating in PS, the noise level can
easily get to be about where it was with my Oly C2020.

I picked up this tip here in this group a few days ago (can't
remember who posted it) for brightening images in PhotoShop. It
works better than Auto Levels or playing with brightness and
contrast. Here goes:
=====================================
"I used this process to lighten the dark photo that I found better
than levels: (Try it!) I even did it in action / batch mode and
completed 400 hundred piuctures in about 30 minutes with minimal
effort.
CORRECTING UNDEREXPOSED PICTURES WITH PHOTOSHOP

Correcting underexposed shots:

Follow along open your picture.

• Image/Duplicate/OK

• Image/Mode/Grayscale/OK

• Filter/Gaussian Blur ( give a factor 4.0) OK

• Now select your original file leaving the copy open

• Original selected:

• Select/Load Selection (Channel Black) Check Invert OK
• Edit Fill/ Use: 50% Gray / Opacity: 100% (experiment with it)

Mode: Color
Dodge (you can apply this more than once using different Opacity's)
That's it!!!
You can hide the selection (marching ants) from View/Hide Edges if
it bothers you looking at it but don't forget you have it hidden.
underexposure correction jtgraphics suggests is pretty
foolproof/automatic (go slow and follow all the steps). You can get
a similar effect with curves but it takes some experience (I would
stick with the Duplicated and Fill with Dodge method).
A couple of other things. If it does too much, use the "FADE" under
Filters in PS5.5 and Edit in PS6.0). If it is not enough then do
the fill a second time (this will certainly be too much, so fade it
-- probably to less than 20% remeber you are working between 100%
and 200% with the second fill ). The advantage of this over
refilling with different numbers is that you can see the effect as
you move the Fade slider.

Basically it is the same math as jtgraphics, but it gives you more
control and MORE importantly you keep everything in the same file
so you can do a one button."
=====================================
Try it you'll like it.

Doug Walker

 

[Gary41969]

Andrew,

thanks for the reply, and no this is my fourth digital: 2 Oly p&s,
and an E10.

Ah, so you have already experianced the digital learning curve. Was
the metering more accurate on those other cameras? Do you still
have any of them. Have you tried comparison shooting with them back
to back.

my memory is that their exposure, especially in indoor flash photos of people were more accurate. They are all gone now so I cannot do a test

thanks, I am trying to determine if it is working as designed

Did it go back to Canon for calibration? Have you tried shooting a
grey or white card and checking the image values.

It has been back to Canon twice, once for auto-off fix where I asked for calibration but they didn't do it. And it just got back from a service trip where I included a lengthy explaination and many samples. They seem to feel that it is right. I haven't tried a grey card, how should I perform that test, what should I look for?

IMHO Fully automatic cameras work best with color negative film.
The resulting exposure errors are corrected at the lab. However, it
is very easy to check the exposure of your image with the D30's
histogram, dial in the indicated compensation and reshoot.

It did occur to me that the photo labs could be correcting for
this, but I shot 35mm slides for 10 years and I thought that photo
labs did no corrections on slides.

I think you are right. Slide film (which I never shot) is supposed
to be the same as shooting digital. Do you have an EOS film SLR you
could load with slide film and do back to back comparisons with.

Yes, you can look at the histogram, compensate and reshoot, unless
of course the shot is long gone. And I know I sound like a whiner,
but as a mech engr who has done a lot of programming, I know it
would be trivial to make an AE mode that replicates what people do
when they look at the histogram to compensate. It could easily
adjust the exposure to center the histogram for you. Sure it would
not always be correct, but as an optional mode there would be many
times that it would be better than 90% effective.

I have wondered about this myself. The problem is there really is
no one correct exposure for many images. It is a judgement call by
the photographer. With a digital or slide film

I realize it would not cover all situations, but since so many people do this with multiple manual steps, it would be a very valuable option to have.

Do you shoot RAW? If so convert to 16bit Tiff, it takes level
adjustments much better. Slight underexposure is easy to fix with
the D30 unlike over exposure.

good point, I have just started to shoot raw

 

[Gary41969]

please check out:





these have a nearly half empty histogram. Is this what you would expect from your D30 in these situations?

thanks,

Gary

I have thought about this, but I spent 10 yrs shooting 35mm slides
in a Canon EOS 10S without seeing these kinds of exposure problems.
I thought that slides (unlike prints) were not subjerct to exposure
comp by the lab. Am I wrong?

Given or prior experiance, your D30 is starting to sound faulty.

I certainly agree with a (slight) bias to underexposure since blown
out highlights are the absolute worst result. But in my experience,
it is often miles away from that, the upper half of the histogram
is often empty. And despite how good the D30 is on noise, you still
pick up significant noise when adjusting this far in PS. In fact,
in some of my tests, after compensating in PS, the noise level can
easily get to be about where it was with my Oly C2020.

If the upper half of the histogram is often empty that sounds like
a faulty camera to me. The examples you showed indicated less than
a stop of underexposure.

 

[Peter Jones17193]

Gary,

Not to disagree with the very good replies you've gotten (well, I guess I am to a point), but I think most all of your existing light shots are at least a full stop underexposed, and I am very surprised to see that you got those results with full-field (evaluative) metering. I think the histograms you have posted validate that. I would definitely recreate those shots with a grey card to set the exposure and see how they look.

There are also some good posts in this forum which describe how to check your camera's metering. I can't point you right to them, but you should be able to find them with a brief search.

Best,

Peter B.

 

[MagicAngel]

I have thought about this, but I spent 10 yrs shooting 35mm slides
in a Canon EOS 10S without seeing these kinds of exposure problems.
I thought that slides (unlike prints) were not subjerct to exposure
comp by the lab. Am I wrong?

Ok, fine. Now let me point out something that you said before:

Now I admit that I am a rank AMATEUR , so I want to get some
opinions from people who understand the exposure
system better than I...

Ok, now am I to understand that you are an amateur who was in the past shooting slide? I see the problem! On the average outing how many rolls of slide film did you shoot? 10? 15? 20? No, I doubt that. The cost would have been too high. So the average amature might shoot two rolls of film at one event, if that many. Like the zoo or at the lake. Now you might be one of those amatures who blows film like a pro, but I doubt it.

So, here is the problem that I see. Last time you took your D30 out shooting, how many frames did you shoot? 200? 300? Yes, that is very likely. What the heck they are free right? Shoot till your finger falls off. Lets say you shot 200 frames or the equilivent 10 rolls of 20 exposure film. Now, here is the problem. When you were shooting slides, you shot 20 exposures and now you are shooting 200 exposures. I'm willing to bet that the 20 exposure you shot as an amature at some event were mostly good shots with good exposure. When I was shooting film for myself, like on vacation, when I was a pro, I would average about 15 good shots per role. My exposure and focus were right on, 15 out of 20 shots. Now that I'm shooting on the D30, for myself, I average about one or two good shots out of every 20. Heck, I was shooting clouds the other day and I burned off 100 shots before I got the one I wanted. Are you starting to see the problem? I'm willing to bet that you don't put the same cost on your images with digital as you did with film. Digital is free and film is expensive to buy and expensive to print. Therefore you don't spend as much time trying to get every shot perfect. When you download you get a lot of bad shots, out of focus, bad exposure, poor in general because you don't value each shot the same as you did when you were shooting film.

In other words, you can't compare your shots, shot-by-shot between digital and film. It is different and in YOUR mind and in MINE, we know that the digital shots don't cost a penny so we are willing to shoot more because we know we can, they are free. You and I both likely come home with the same number of 'keepers' as we did when we were shooting film, but I doubt that the number of 'tossed' images is even in the same power as it was with film.

What is boils down to is that you are an AMATEUR . In other words, when you were shooting slide film, every time you pressed the button, you felt it in your wallet. Now that your wallet is empty (i.e. you got a D30). You don't feel that same constraint to limit the number of exposures, so you are willing to take riskier shots, that often don't work out. Not that any of this is bad, it doesn't mean you aren't just as good of a photographer as some pros.

So back to what you said:

I have thought about this, but I spent 10 yrs shooting 35mm slides
in a Canon EOS 10S without seeing these kinds of exposure problems.
I thought that slides (unlike prints) were not subjerct to exposure
comp by the lab. Am I wrong?

Are you wrong? I think you are correct, but I think you aren't asking the right question. Will you see as many exposure problems on slide film as you do on the D30? No, you will take much more time setting up the slide shots, so many more will be good.

Of course, I might be totally wrong, but that is my opinion on this.