IainD
Senior Member
I think the time has come to start a D4 forum, so we lesser mortals can mope about our D3s and D3x models in seclusion.
IainD
IainD
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Grevture
Senior Member
Similar suggestions has shown up every single time a new model is released and the forum go nuts about it for a week ... 
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!
By the way, film is not dead.
It just smell funny
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!
By the way, film is not dead.
It just smell funny
scorpiuspix
Forum Enthusiast
I predict: Nikon D4 - D1 / D800
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pbase.com/scorpius
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bobn2
Forum Pro
The D4 is much less of a new start than the D3 was. All in all its a minor evolutionary upgrade of the D3s, video tech apart.
I don't know how many D3s owners have a craving for illuminated buttons.
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Bob
mootaineer
Leading Member
I acknowledge that this is a tech forum but this has been going on for well over a few weeks, with all speculations of the D800 and D4, etc.
I know that Iliah is still here but so many useful, technical posters seem to have gone.
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Joe
I know that Iliah is still here but so many useful, technical posters seem to have gone.
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Joe
mootaineer
Leading Member
I commented a few years ago that I would love to have illuminated buttons on my D700. Shooting in the dark I can go by feel but would like to be able to see buttons rather than resort to a head/hand torch. Option to turn the feature off would also be useful, nevertheless.
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Joe
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Joe
Bernie Ess
Veteran Member
I'd be curious to know your point of view. You have been writing glowing predictions about what Nikon is capable to deliver in terms of IQ, performance (both sensor and camera body).
It now seems that Nikon was just capable to deliver what the D4 seems to be: A minor upgrade hardly worth the long expectaition: First high ISO samples (at ISO6400 and up to 102.000 etc.) do not really look better than D3s, video set aside. The D4 does obviously also not even achieve the Canon 1D-X data throughput (D1-x has higher resolution and faster framerates), whereas you have been suggesting they can easily deliver much higher frame rates at almost any pixel count.
I cannot see any logic to see a model that performs slightly below Canon's latest (announced) model if they can do much better in reality. To build something slightly above Canons new 1d series camera would have been the least...
So my personal conclusion is just that your former predictions and analysis about Nikons expertise and know- how were somehow (vastly) exagerated. They just also only cook with water, just as Canon. Sometimes they have a killer cam, sometimes the new stuff underwhelms...
Cheers
Bernie
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'All the technique in the world doesn’t compensate for the inability to notice.' (Elliot Erwitt)
Grevture
Senior Member
Bernie,
I think you, and many, many others sort of miss the point of cameras like Canon Eos 1DX and Nikon D4. These are cameras which are very much built to fulfill the expectations of their intended target audience - press and sports photographers. Canon and Nikon spend very much time and effort interviewing such photographers, having them test new functions. If anything, I think they almost overdo it at the expense of other types of photographers like nature shooters, studio shooters, landscape, architecture shooters. The three last groups are by the way traditionally medium format users, while Canon and Nikon traditionally have had their eyes on press- and sports shooters.
Anyway, over the past couple of days I have talked and mailed with some PJ and sport shooting collegues and the subject of the discussions has been the D4 (with those who are Nikon based) and the relative merits of the 1DX and the D4 (with those who are Canon based).
And among these shooters, almost everybody are really happy about the new cameras, there is none of the frustration I can see in this forum or in the Canon pro camera forum. Much of the reaction can be summarized with what one sport shooting Nikon based photog said: "finally they have started fixing the cameras, not just upgrading the sensors".
Interestingly, none of these people I have spoken with has said much, if anything at all, about the "lack of resolution" (18 and 16 MP respectively) which seem to be the core complaint here at Dpreview. One of the few comments of this I got was a Canon based guy noting that with the 1DX he will get what he percieved as the perfect compromise between the speed and handling of his 1D Mk4 and the resolution of his 5D Mk2.
One of the most appreciated functions of both the 1DX and the D4 among the shooters I have spoken with this weekend is - and this might surprise many of you - the ethernet connection. You have no idea how frustrating it is trying to send images right after something has happened at at sports event, a press conference, a TV show or similar, and realizing you have lost you wifi connection or that the wifi network is overloaded with traffic. The ethernet connection is such a simple and yet greatly stress reducing feature. People who have not desperately fiddled with a wireless connection with an editor screaming for images in you phone simply does not understand how wonderfully useful such a simple (and relatively low tech) feature can be.
The 1DX and the D4 are pro tools, not gadegets, and I happen to think both are really great upgrades. Sure, improved image quality is always welcome, but after teh D3s ... It is almost never the sensor performance is what frustrates you at work, It is almost never the resolution or the low light properties which limit you or causes stress. There are other factores, mainly workflow related ones - like getting images from your camera to your editors.
So, to answer your question, no, the relatively small upgrade of the sensor in the D4 is not cased by lack of technical expertise at Nikons part. It is because Nikon (and Canon) actually seem to focus very hard to deliver what their main target audience really wants.
You will get high MP cameras too, probably as the rumoured 30+ MP Eos 5D Mk3 and D800. But the 1DX and D4 are not about megapixels. They are about speed, handling and workflow. Which is exactely what has been upgraded in the 1DX and the D4.
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!
By the way, film is not dead.
It just smell funny
heavymeister
Leading Member
We don't need a separate D4 forum but a Nikon rumors and gossip forum where people could speculate and talk about Nikon equipment that has not come to market yet and nobody of ordinary folks here has had a chance to shoot with. AND with finally need moderators who move threads to the appropriate forums. By the way what's the Nikon Talk forum for? Can't this just be renamed to Nikon Rumors and everybody wanting to speculate about new gear could have their fun there?
Leonard Shepherd
Forum Pro
Some of us have a D300s and D7000 - and seen the gains in detail that can be recorded, increased DR and better noise of the D7000.
The same is likely to apply to the D4, which also has improved AF and improved AF control, ability to operate from an ipod (great for some wildlife), Expeed 3 improvements, more advanced metering etc.
It is quite a bit more than a "minor" upgrade - with a UK price increase of only 10% over the D3s price
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Leonard Shepherd
Photography could be easier - if cameras and lenses came with an increase in skill button.
commiebiker
Senior Member
+1, well said. Although probably much too coherent for this forum
scorpiuspix
Forum Enthusiast
well said. I'm upgrading to a D4 from a D300. This may not be the upgrade for existing D3/D3s users...I don't blame them either. But for those of us that skipped those two upgrades, this is a nice opportunity.
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pbase.com/scorpius
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pbase.com/scorpius
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Martin Greeson
Guest
New forum not necessary. I consider the D4 is more like the D3s, D3 and even the D700, they are FX. The forum could be call instead of, D4, D3, D3s, D700, simply "Nikon SLR FX forum" and like wise the D300s forum would be the Nikon SLR DX forum. That prevents having to many forums so you don't need to hunt for info and the time line of Nikon's new FX and DX cameras will mean as time passes fewer people will post about older models, but we can still search for that history in the same forum.
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Tic Tic
Martin Greeson
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Tic Tic
Martin Greeson
Grevture
Senior Member
Well, maybe for a few participants, but I think most people understand - even if they don't agree at all+1, well said. Although probably much too coherent for this forum
But to add another point many seem to be missing:
I see a lot of reasoning here on Dpreview which seem to imply these new cameras (I keep talking about both Eos 1DX and D4) really should represent the latest and the greatest Canon and Nikon can produce in terms of technological achievement.
Well, as a tech enthusiast myself, I can sympatize with that, but I would say the overwhelming majority of the target audience of these cameras would not agree. Full time working PJ and sports photographers tend to surprisingly conservative when it comes to technology. They don't mind new tech - as long as it does not interfere with the basic functionality of the camera. And they love new tech which makes their work simpler and reduces stress - but only after it has been proven to be very reliable.
I don't think it is a coincidence that Nikon within six months have introduced both cameras built around very exciting new technology like on sensor phase detect AF (the J1/V1) and also a new pro camera which might appear as "same 'ol, same 'ol, just slightly more of it".
New exciting technology that probably, but not certainly will fly is tried in consumer cameras. Pro cameras are built around what you already know works well. Which means adding stunning new technology like ... A ethernet connection which is basically 30 year old technology, but reasonably field tested by now ...
Look, Canon made the mistake of introducing a brand new, much faster AF system in a pro camera almost five years ago. It was potentially a big leap forward, because it really is lightning fast. Unfortenately they did not properly field test it first, and has suffered the consequences ever since. The Mark III AF has hurt Canon badly within the pro community. New technology is nice, but make d-a-m-n sure it really works first ...
When choosing between
A) a exciting and wonderful camera with the very latest in technology which works 95% of the time, or
B) a good but less exciting camera camera which works 100% of the time
most pro photographers I have ever met or talked with will choose option B) every time. Canon and Nikon knows that.
We will see new exciting technology in upcoming Nikon (and Canon) cameras, don't worry. Just don't expect it to show up first in working tools designed for a group of users who are extremely careful about reliability and stability.
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!
By the way, film is not dead.
It just smell funny
bobn2
Forum Pro
The D7000 is such a big advance image quality wise on the D300 primarily because the sensor is much more efficient at collecting photons (48% against 29%) and generates less electronic noise (2.5 electrons versus 4.8). All in all, these two things give it nearly a stop advantage over the D300. The D3s sensor is extremely efficient already. Compared with the D3 the D4 will show 0.6 stop improvement (not quite as much as the D7000 does over the D300). Over the D3s it will show much less, if any (apart from resolution). As I said it's evolutionary, the D3 has had a sensor evolution that the D300 missed out on (the D300s kept the old sensor, rather than getting the evolved D90 sensor)Some of us have a D300s and D7000 - and seen the gains in detail that can be recorded, increased DR and better noise of the D7000.
The same is likely to apply to the D4, which also has improved AF and improved AF control, ability to operate from an ipod (great for some wildlife), Expeed 3 improvements, more advanced metering etc.
It is quite a bit more than a "minor" upgrade - with a UK price increase of only 10% over the D3s price
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Bob
Grevture
Senior Member
What I am thinking, in the case of D3s evolving into D4 ... Considering the performace of the D3s sensor, and how far into the land of diminishing returns it probably already is ... How much (r)evolution in terms of sensor performance is really important in a D4?The D7000 is such a big advance image quality wise on the D300 primarily because the sensor is much more efficient at collecting photons (48% against 29%) and generates less electronic noise (2.5 electrons versus 4.8). All in all, these two things give it nearly a stop advantage over the D300. The D3s sensor is extremely efficient already. Compared with the D3 the D4 will show 0.6 stop improvement (not quite as much as the D7000 does over the D300). Over the D3s it will show much less, if any (apart from resolution). As I said it's evolutionary, the D3 has had a sensor evolution that the D300 missed out on (the D300s kept the old sensor, rather than getting the evolved D90 sensor)Some of us have a D300s and D7000 - and seen the gains in detail that can be recorded, increased DR and better noise of the D7000.
The same is likely to apply to the D4, which also has improved AF and improved AF control, ability to operate from an ipod (great for some wildlife), Expeed 3 improvements, more advanced metering etc.
It is quite a bit more than a "minor" upgrade - with a UK price increase of only 10% over the D3s price
I am not implying manufacturers should stop development of sensors and grow fat and happy. Just that visibly upgrading the sensor might not always be the biggest concern any more. Depending on the camera (and its audience), other issues might be considered more important. Like a sport shooting collegue of mine said (in reference to the D4): "finally they have started fixing the cameras, not just upgrading the sensors".
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!
By the way, film is not dead.
It just smell funny
Ohnostudio
Forum Enthusiast
exifnotfound
Forum Enthusiast
I reckon the illuminated buttons are fantastic, wish I had them on my D700!!
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http://stevejwphotography.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevejwphoto/
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http://stevejwphotography.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevejwphoto/
+1
(I don't think a separate forum would make any sense)
... so you mean we even lesser mortals than the lesser mortals with an ancient D3 shouldn't be allowed to post in the lesser mortals forum? ;-)
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