D2X is FF after all?

[jeff-c]

My usual reliable source gave me a surprise phone call with a piece of surprise news: D2X is FF after all.

Now before you discount this as the usual my-cousin-ancle-neighbor heresay, my source has been very reliable in the past, only missing a few small details. You could completely discount this post if you don't care.

The leak could be part of Nikon feeling out the market reaction as the form of the leak itself is rather unusual which I wouldn't go to details. Suffice to say it's a type of formal survey involved with the pro's in certain market.

Or it could be Nikon's way to check out who are the leaks which is why I couldn't reveal too much details.

Needless to say I am happy with this surprise as D2X needs enough pixel count to be competitive and doubling pixels with D2H's LBCAST in the DX format isn't going to make it, especially when considering the noise issue with D2H.

I have been told within Nikon there have been rather emotional discussions about DX vs. FF, one camp with concern of cost whereas the other concern with competition.

Now that Kodak finally brings a quite competitive FF 14mp SLR/x to the market at a competitive price, it seems the FF camp within Nikon finally win, or let's hope so.

For what is worth, I got to play with a friend's new SLR/n this weekend and seeing the results even on a laptop (IBM T30) is really amazing. The only drawback with the SLR/n is the body itself, no where near to what my D2H can give me.

Go FF, Nikon!

 

[Derrick Siu]

Would you know and tell us a bit more about the FF D2x you heard? How many fps? 10 to 12 mp? and the most important thing is the price and when is Nikon going to anounce ?

Derrick

My usual reliable source gave me a surprise phone call with a piece
of surprise news: D2X is FF after all.

Now before you discount this as the usual my-cousin-ancle-neighbor
heresay, my source has been very reliable in the past, only missing
a few small details. You could completely discount this post if you
don't care.

The leak could be part of Nikon feeling out the market reaction as
the form of the leak itself is rather unusual which I wouldn't go
to details. Suffice to say it's a type of formal survey involved
with the pro's in certain market.

Or it could be Nikon's way to check out who are the leaks which is
why I couldn't reveal too much details.

Needless to say I am happy with this surprise as D2X needs enough
pixel count to be competitive and doubling pixels with D2H's LBCAST
in the DX format isn't going to make it, especially when
considering the noise issue with D2H.

I have been told within Nikon there have been rather emotional
discussions about DX vs. FF, one camp with concern of cost whereas
the other concern with competition.

Now that Kodak finally brings a quite competitive FF 14mp SLR/x to
the market at a competitive price, it seems the FF camp within
Nikon finally win, or let's hope so.

For what is worth, I got to play with a friend's new SLR/n this
weekend and seeing the results even on a laptop (IBM T30) is really
amazing. The only drawback with the SLR/n is the body itself, no
where near to what my D2H can give me.

Go FF, Nikon!

 

[LorenDJones]

Would you know and tell us a bit more about the FF D2x you heard?
How many fps? 10 to 12 mp? and the most important thing is the
price and when is Nikon going to anounce ?

 

[jeff-c]

Except it's definitely going to be over 10mp. Other than that I don't claim to know any more details than what is said originally.

I could go on to speculate further but that would be as good as anyone who can post here.

Would you know and tell us a bit more about the FF D2x you heard?
How many fps? 10 to 12 mp? and the most important thing is the
price and when is Nikon going to anounce ?

 

[jjolly]

That's an interesting story since I plan on being a D2X owner..someday?

The FF speculation interests me because of some lens purchases I plan to make in the near future like a 17-??mm. I almost bought a DX lens the other day but not knowing what the D2X will be I didn't. I did order the high-dollar 50mm 1.8 lens.
Posts like yours, correct or not?, probably keep me out of trouble.

jjolly (D100 owner now)

My usual reliable source gave me a surprise phone call with a piece
of surprise news: D2X is FF after all.

Now before you discount this as the usual my-cousin-ancle-neighbor
heresay, my source has been very reliable in the past, only missing
a few small details. You could completely discount this post if you
don't care.

The leak could be part of Nikon feeling out the market reaction as
the form of the leak itself is rather unusual which I wouldn't go
to details. Suffice to say it's a type of formal survey involved
with the pro's in certain market.

Or it could be Nikon's way to check out who are the leaks which is
why I couldn't reveal too much details.

Needless to say I am happy with this surprise as D2X needs enough
pixel count to be competitive and doubling pixels with D2H's LBCAST
in the DX format isn't going to make it, especially when
considering the noise issue with D2H.

I have been told within Nikon there have been rather emotional
discussions about DX vs. FF, one camp with concern of cost whereas
the other concern with competition.

Now that Kodak finally brings a quite competitive FF 14mp SLR/x to
the market at a competitive price, it seems the FF camp within
Nikon finally win, or let's hope so.

For what is worth, I got to play with a friend's new SLR/n this
weekend and seeing the results even on a laptop (IBM T30) is really
amazing. The only drawback with the SLR/n is the body itself, no
where near to what my D2H can give me.

Go FF, Nikon!

 

[Romantic warrior]

FF? I hope so, anyway could you tell us about new lenses?
I wouldl like to buy 105/2.8 macro any new lens with AF-S Vr?

And what about new 17-35 and 28-70? I should improve my lenses 18-35 and 35-70, but I dont want to buy the old lenses....we see, all new lenses are G, so I am wating improved G lenses as 15-35 and 24-70, can you help me please? Have I to wait? Thanks

jjolly (D100 owner now)

My usual reliable source gave me a surprise phone call with a piece
of surprise news: D2X is FF after all.

Now before you discount this as the usual my-cousin-ancle-neighbor
heresay, my source has been very reliable in the past, only missing
a few small details. You could completely discount this post if you
don't care.

The leak could be part of Nikon feeling out the market reaction as
the form of the leak itself is rather unusual which I wouldn't go
to details. Suffice to say it's a type of formal survey involved
with the pro's in certain market.

Or it could be Nikon's way to check out who are the leaks which is
why I couldn't reveal too much details.

Needless to say I am happy with this surprise as D2X needs enough
pixel count to be competitive and doubling pixels with D2H's LBCAST
in the DX format isn't going to make it, especially when
considering the noise issue with D2H.

I have been told within Nikon there have been rather emotional
discussions about DX vs. FF, one camp with concern of cost whereas
the other concern with competition.

Now that Kodak finally brings a quite competitive FF 14mp SLR/x to
the market at a competitive price, it seems the FF camp within
Nikon finally win, or let's hope so.

For what is worth, I got to play with a friend's new SLR/n this
weekend and seeing the results even on a laptop (IBM T30) is really
amazing. The only drawback with the SLR/n is the body itself, no
where near to what my D2H can give me.

Go FF, Nikon!

--
RW

 

[Baracus]

Makes sense to me. My limited knowlege of sensor physics tells me going 10+ MP would be hard with the LBCAST in the DX chip size. Plus while the 12-24 is a nice lens, I would love to trade in mine towards a 17-35 and have oodles of pixels. 16+ MP is where I really start to drool and consider taking out a second mortgage.

I've got the D2H and it is a great camera. I hope the D2X has the same layout.
--
It's All Relative,
Baracus
http://www.pbase.com/baracus

 

[LorenDJones]

After posting my previous note I opened my e-mail to find a message from Nikon promoting a $500 rebate on the D1X, plus a free Nikon Capture 4.0.

Looks like they're trying to blow-out the last of the inventory. Offer ends 4/30/2004

-Loren

 

[Derrick Siu]

Hopefully all our dream will come ture at 1st May, 04

Here is what I have been dreaming
FF D2x
10-12MP
4 FPS
at least 21 JPEG and 14 NEF buffer like D1x or even more

ISO 100 to 1600 noise free sensor, noise free up to 1000 is be good, 1600 is idea.
$4500 to max $5000 street price
Lets pray together

Derrick

After posting my previous note I opened my e-mail to find a message
from Nikon promoting a $500 rebate on the D1X, plus a free Nikon
Capture 4.0.

Looks like they're trying to blow-out the last of the inventory.
Offer ends 4/30/2004

-Loren

 

[avalvo]

A Nikon Full Frame camera is going to happen. Despite the internal discussions that go on at Nikon, the market demand and competition's success with such cameras means Nikon will have no choice but to develop such a camera.

Anthony

Here is what I have been dreaming
FF D2x
10-12MP
4 FPS
at least 21 JPEG and 14 NEF buffer like D1x or even more
ISO 100 to 1600 noise free sensor, noise free up to 1000 is be
good, 1600 is idea.
$4500 to max $5000 street price
Lets pray together

Derrick

After posting my previous note I opened my e-mail to find a message
from Nikon promoting a $500 rebate on the D1X, plus a free Nikon
Capture 4.0.

Looks like they're trying to blow-out the last of the inventory.
Offer ends 4/30/2004

-Loren

 

[vernix]

My usual reliable source gave me a surprise phone call with a piece
of surprise news: D2X is FF after all.

Now before you discount this as the usual my-cousin-ancle-neighbor
heresay, my source has been very reliable in the past, only missing
a few small details. You could completely discount this post if you
don't care.

The leak could be part of Nikon feeling out the market reaction as
the form of the leak itself is rather unusual which I wouldn't go
to details. Suffice to say it's a type of formal survey involved
with the pro's in certain market.

Or it could be Nikon's way to check out who are the leaks which is
why I couldn't reveal too much details.

Needless to say I am happy with this surprise as D2X needs enough
pixel count to be competitive and doubling pixels with D2H's LBCAST
in the DX format isn't going to make it, especially when
considering the noise issue with D2H.

I have been told within Nikon there have been rather emotional
discussions about DX vs. FF, one camp with concern of cost whereas
the other concern with competition.

Now that Kodak finally brings a quite competitive FF 14mp SLR/x to
the market at a competitive price, it seems the FF camp within
Nikon finally win, or let's hope so.

For what is worth, I got to play with a friend's new SLR/n this
weekend and seeing the results even on a laptop (IBM T30) is really
amazing. The only drawback with the SLR/n is the body itself, no
where near to what my D2H can give me.

Go FF, Nikon!

 

[Thom Hogan]

Except it's definitely going to be over 10mp. Other than that I
don't claim to know any more details than what is said originally.

Hmm, I've been trying to figure out what sensor technology Nikon has available to it that would get them into the high resolution camp. As I see it:

D1x-like on D2h LBCAST, still APS size: 8mp, interpolates higher
D2h LBCAST, but full-frame: 9mp
D70, but full frame: 13.5mp
D1x-like on D70, still APS size: 12mp, interpolates higher

Anything else would be new sensor technology (at a minimum, new photosite size), and I just don't see Nikon having yet another sensor in their pockets.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guides to the Nikon D100, D1, D1h, & D1x and Fujifilm S2
http://www.bythom.com

 

[HAE]

Jeff.. if you can reply in general terms, do you know if Nikon's wait has been just to increase pixel number or have they been working on more radical improvements in sensor design.

I am surprised they might still have not made their minds up yet. However, the news in itself does not surprise me. I for one have been excited about the DX format. But thinking about it, I believe standardizing on the DX format is gonna be the hard way to bring competitive high MP DSLRs. FF will give Nikon 225% times the DX sensor space. I have been wishing that Nikon goes 1.3X as this would be a good compromise between the advantages of FF (160% times the DX sensor space) and those of the smaller sensors. You need 7,6 and 5 micron pixels with a DX sensors to get 8, 10.6 and 15 mega pixels . For comparison, the current pixel dimensions for digital SLRs (in microns) are 9.4(D2H),8.8(1Ds),8.2 (1D2),7.8(D70/D100), 7.4(10D), 6.8(Oly E-1). I do not think Nikon can get a high resolution LBCAST DX sensor without dramatic improvements in their noise proformance and/or using some new technology like sharing transistors between pixels to improve fill rate (already developed by Canon and Matsushita for very small pixels) or alternatively going the Foveon to get more data from pixels.

My usual reliable source gave me a surprise phone call with a piece
of surprise news: D2X is FF after all.

Now before you discount this as the usual my-cousin-ancle-neighbor
heresay, my source has been very reliable in the past, only missing
a few small details. You could completely discount this post if you
don't care.

The leak could be part of Nikon feeling out the market reaction as
the form of the leak itself is rather unusual which I wouldn't go
to details. Suffice to say it's a type of formal survey involved
with the pro's in certain market.

Or it could be Nikon's way to check out who are the leaks which is
why I couldn't reveal too much details.

Needless to say I am happy with this surprise as D2X needs enough
pixel count to be competitive and doubling pixels with D2H's LBCAST
in the DX format isn't going to make it, especially when
considering the noise issue with D2H.

I have been told within Nikon there have been rather emotional
discussions about DX vs. FF, one camp with concern of cost whereas
the other concern with competition.

Now that Kodak finally brings a quite competitive FF 14mp SLR/x to
the market at a competitive price, it seems the FF camp within
Nikon finally win, or let's hope so.

For what is worth, I got to play with a friend's new SLR/n this
weekend and seeing the results even on a laptop (IBM T30) is really
amazing. The only drawback with the SLR/n is the body itself, no
where near to what my D2H can give me.

Go FF, Nikon!

 

[cameraman12]

Nikon has been very outspoken on why ff sensors are a bad decision. Why would they all of all sudden change their minds. I don't buy it. This camera won't be out for a while as we all know. A leak now would be nearly impossible. Is it still April 1st? Why are you all so eager for ff sensors? We have lenses to fill the gap the 1.5 crop has left... and they are damn good lenses. So what is it that you all lust for? Paying more money for a larger chip? I just don't get it (and neither does Olympus, Pentax, fuji, etc..)

 

[hmac]

My usual reliable source gave me a surprise phone call with a piece
of surprise news: D2X is FF after all.

Now before you discount this as the usual my-cousin-ancle-neighbor
heresay, my source has been very reliable in the past, only missing
a few small details. You could completely discount this post if you
don't care.

The leak could be part of Nikon feeling out the market reaction as
the form of the leak itself is rather unusual which I wouldn't go
to details. Suffice to say it's a type of formal survey involved
with the pro's in certain market.

Or it could be Nikon's way to check out who are the leaks which is
why I couldn't reveal too much details.

Needless to say I am happy with this surprise as D2X needs enough
pixel count to be competitive and doubling pixels with D2H's LBCAST
in the DX format isn't going to make it, especially when
considering the noise issue with D2H.

Boy, I don't know. That's got to be one expensive camera then - in the vicinity of the 1Ds. That would seem to be a mistake since it leaves the 1D Mk II, by all reports a great camera, to run roughshod all over the very-new D2H. And it leaves all the poor 4mp D2H users with nowhere to upgrade.

Nikon leaving the only choices in their professional lineup as either a $3000 4 megapixel camera, or a $7000 FF camera? With the 1D Mk II just hanging out there at $4200 unanswered? I'd be very surprised.

--
H McCollister

 

[jeff-c]

Actually I heard some discussions about new improvements over a year ago related to D2X, namely in the area of dynamic range. I heard some really radical ideas initialy, then some more realistic ones. Since I don't know how sensitive this idea would be as far as competitiveness is concerned I'd rather not to discuss here openly.

At the time when this increase dynamic range idea was mentioned I wasn't even aware of the LBCAST so I was a little bit spektical about how they could implement it with an outside sensor supplier. Now that they control the sensor design the idea would really make sense.

Between pixel count and the supposedly radical dynamic range improvement, D2X could take leap of competition again if they did it right.

Jeff.. if you can reply in general terms, do you know if Nikon's
wait has been just to increase pixel number or have they been
working on more radical improvements in sensor design.

 

[jeff-c]

Nikon leaving the only choices in their professional lineup as
either a $3000 4 megapixel camera, or a $7000 FF camera? With the
1D Mk II just hanging out there at $4200 unanswered? I'd be very
surprised.

What I have been hearing from my source but not this time is that D2X will not be priced at the 1Ds level, hence the internal debate about DX and FF by keeping cost at reasonable level.

Now that Kodak has shown the world they can make a FF DSLR at $4,500, abeit with a lesser body, a $5,500 or less FF D2X is not too much a stretch.

 

[jeff-c]

Except it's definitely going to be over 10mp. Other than that I
don't claim to know any more details than what is said originally.

Hmm, I've been trying to figure out what sensor technology Nikon
has available to it that would get them into the high resolution
camp. As I see it:

Purely speculation in my part. They could either:

1) Making a FF LBCAST with same pixel size as D2H, thus making it almost 10mp (9.45mp) chip.

2) Reduce the D2H LBCAST pixel slightly and scale it up to 11 or 14mp.

3) Take an off the shell 11mp FF CMOS sensor from Kodak announced over a year ago.

 

[maxz]

do a simple math and you will realise how hard it is for a DX sensor to compete with a FF sensor. a FF sensor is more than double the size of a DX sensor. That means squeezing 10MP pixels into a sensor at half physical size of a 1Ds sensor while maintaining the same level of noise. Is it possible to achieve that today after 1Ds has been out for almost two years? Well the latest offeriings from both companies didn't say 'yes'. Right now Nikon's highest pixel count camera is D100/D70 @ 6.1MP, while canon has 8.5MP and 10MP as their high end, and a even higher pixel count camera coming later this year. Although D70 will be the cash cow Nikon has to have a flagship model that can maintain its image as the leader in the DSLR market.

My usual reliable source gave me a surprise phone call with a piece
of surprise news: D2X is FF after all.

Now before you discount this as the usual my-cousin-ancle-neighbor
heresay, my source has been very reliable in the past, only missing
a few small details. You could completely discount this post if you
don't care.

The leak could be part of Nikon feeling out the market reaction as
the form of the leak itself is rather unusual which I wouldn't go
to details. Suffice to say it's a type of formal survey involved
with the pro's in certain market.

Or it could be Nikon's way to check out who are the leaks which is
why I couldn't reveal too much details.

Needless to say I am happy with this surprise as D2X needs enough
pixel count to be competitive and doubling pixels with D2H's LBCAST
in the DX format isn't going to make it, especially when
considering the noise issue with D2H.

I have been told within Nikon there have been rather emotional
discussions about DX vs. FF, one camp with concern of cost whereas
the other concern with competition.

Now that Kodak finally brings a quite competitive FF 14mp SLR/x to
the market at a competitive price, it seems the FF camp within
Nikon finally win, or let's hope so.

For what is worth, I got to play with a friend's new SLR/n this
weekend and seeing the results even on a laptop (IBM T30) is really
amazing. The only drawback with the SLR/n is the body itself, no
where near to what my D2H can give me.

Go FF, Nikon!

 

[ksah]

-pixel number
-improvements
-DX format
-high MP DSLRs
-225%
-DX sensor space
-1.3x
-advantages of FF
-160%
-7,6 and 5 micron pixels
-8, 10.6 and 15 mega pixels
-pixel dimensions
-9.4(D2H),
-8.8(1Ds),
-8.2 (1D2)
-7.8(D70/D100)
-7.4(10D)
-6.8(Oly E-1)
-LBCAST DX
-sharing transistors
-Matsushita
-Foveon

WOW!