CMOS Vs CCD

[codec]

first of all..i'm not trying to stir up another 'holy war' defending 'mine's better!'

second, i do believe there are tons of people thinking of getting a 300D on this forum...thus i consider this is 300d related topic...not OT

when someone brought up the D70 issue...i believe for those who are pondering between 300d and D70, two major concerns:

1. pics from CMOS and CCD taste different...according to some threads i read here, what do you think on this? what kind of different tastes then?sharpness? expousure tendency? saturation? or others?

2.for those comparing the D70 and 300D, i'd like to remind that, it doesn't read anywhere about the metering 'selectability' on the D70, right?

thanks in advance...your comments are appreciated

 

[The Krakken]

When I realized that the CMOS could take images like THIS UNSHARPENED and NOISE FREE headshot:

http://www.pbase.com/image/25560730/original

I left CCD behind.

first of all..i'm not trying to stir up another 'holy war'
defending 'mine's better!'

second, i do believe there are tons of people thinking of getting a
300D on this forum...thus i consider this is 300d related
topic...not OT

when someone brought up the D70 issue...i believe for those who are
pondering between 300d and D70, two major concerns:

1. pics from CMOS and CCD taste different...according to some
threads i read here, what do you think on this? what kind of
different tastes then?sharpness? expousure tendency? saturation? or
others?

2.for those comparing the D70 and 300D, i'd like to remind that, it
doesn't read anywhere about the metering 'selectability' on the
D70, right?

thanks in advance...your comments are appreciated

--

'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

 

[codec]

wow!..what can i say! great job!

but you dont have a CCD version for the same shot for comparison, do you?

too much in-camera processing is not appreciated by many dslr users, it's good that 300d takes soft pics straight out of the box...dunno about the nikon...perhaps another issue considered by many people

http://www.pbase.com/image/25560730/original

I left CCD behind.

first of all..i'm not trying to stir up another 'holy war'
defending 'mine's better!'

second, i do believe there are tons of people thinking of getting a
300D on this forum...thus i consider this is 300d related
topic...not OT

when someone brought up the D70 issue...i believe for those who are
pondering between 300d and D70, two major concerns:

1. pics from CMOS and CCD taste different...according to some
threads i read here, what do you think on this? what kind of
different tastes then?sharpness? expousure tendency? saturation? or
others?

2.for those comparing the D70 and 300D, i'd like to remind that, it
doesn't read anywhere about the metering 'selectability' on the
D70, right?

thanks in advance...your comments are appreciated

--
'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as
you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

 

[The Krakken]

Actually, I did. I erased them, as I didn't think they were useful. They were taken with my F717, and were outclassed by the one's take from my 300D. Since someone was paying me for a portrait (an album cover), and he liked the CMOS images more, I deleted all the CCD images. I liked the CMOS images more too. I rarely use my 717 these days.

I agree about in-camera processing though...too much can be a bad thing. I shoot with the sharpness and contrast turned DOWN, for that very reason. Even so, as I look at that sharp, at f5 (!!!), it still came out too sharp, with feint halo's around the edges. I shudder to think what would have happened if I shot at F8.

but you dont have a CCD version for the same shot for comparison,
do you?

too much in-camera processing is not appreciated by many dslr
users, it's good that 300d takes soft pics straight out of the
box...dunno about the nikon...perhaps another issue considered by
many people

http://www.pbase.com/image/25560730/original

I left CCD behind.

first of all..i'm not trying to stir up another 'holy war'
defending 'mine's better!'

second, i do believe there are tons of people thinking of getting a
300D on this forum...thus i consider this is 300d related
topic...not OT

when someone brought up the D70 issue...i believe for those who are
pondering between 300d and D70, two major concerns:

1. pics from CMOS and CCD taste different...according to some
threads i read here, what do you think on this? what kind of
different tastes then?sharpness? expousure tendency? saturation? or
others?

2.for those comparing the D70 and 300D, i'd like to remind that, it
doesn't read anywhere about the metering 'selectability' on the
D70, right?

thanks in advance...your comments are appreciated

--
'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as
you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

--

'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

 

[codec]

well...too bad you didnt keep...at least you could use it as a vivid example to 'educate the mass' (borrowed from other thread, no offence )....

but you dont have a CCD version for the same shot for comparison,
do you?

too much in-camera processing is not appreciated by many dslr
users, it's good that 300d takes soft pics straight out of the
box...dunno about the nikon...perhaps another issue considered by
many people

http://www.pbase.com/image/25560730/original

I left CCD behind.

first of all..i'm not trying to stir up another 'holy war'
defending 'mine's better!'

second, i do believe there are tons of people thinking of getting a
300D on this forum...thus i consider this is 300d related
topic...not OT

when someone brought up the D70 issue...i believe for those who are
pondering between 300d and D70, two major concerns:

1. pics from CMOS and CCD taste different...according to some
threads i read here, what do you think on this? what kind of
different tastes then?sharpness? expousure tendency? saturation? or
others?

2.for those comparing the D70 and 300D, i'd like to remind that, it
doesn't read anywhere about the metering 'selectability' on the
D70, right?

thanks in advance...your comments are appreciated

--
'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as
you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

--
'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as
you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

 

[The Krakken]

Maybe I'll do it anyway, whenever my lens gets back from Sigma. Wouldn't you know it, that same lens was soft at f2.8???

I sure hope they fix it. The extra stop of light was the only reason I chose it over the Canon F4L.

but you dont have a CCD version for the same shot for comparison,
do you?

too much in-camera processing is not appreciated by many dslr
users, it's good that 300d takes soft pics straight out of the
box...dunno about the nikon...perhaps another issue considered by
many people

http://www.pbase.com/image/25560730/original

I left CCD behind.

first of all..i'm not trying to stir up another 'holy war'
defending 'mine's better!'

second, i do believe there are tons of people thinking of getting a
300D on this forum...thus i consider this is 300d related
topic...not OT

when someone brought up the D70 issue...i believe for those who are
pondering between 300d and D70, two major concerns:

1. pics from CMOS and CCD taste different...according to some
threads i read here, what do you think on this? what kind of
different tastes then?sharpness? expousure tendency? saturation? or
others?

2.for those comparing the D70 and 300D, i'd like to remind that, it
doesn't read anywhere about the metering 'selectability' on the
D70, right?

thanks in advance...your comments are appreciated

--
'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as
you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

--
'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as
you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

--

'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

 

[Negative287]

Do you realize that to date Canon's most popular digital with pros is probably the 1D... So the favorite on that side (followed by the 1Ds which most can't afford) is still based on the CCD...

As far as everything I've read from the likes of Kodak, MIT and places such as that which publish white papers on the internet there are only two big differences...

The CMOS technology isn't as sensitive to light as the CCD is (the CCD is between 2 and 4 times more sensitive) and this makes the fill factor of the CMOS less capable then the CCD... It's interesting because the way it is described is that the CMOS tends to capture similar detail (meaning you can see the same things) but it isn't as prevalent as when using a CCD.

The CCD technology can only reduce noise in the image as a whole whereas CMOS is capable of doing it for each photosite. This makes it tough to setup a camera with the same exact NR properties as a CMOS sensor... This can be done but it requires a second chip and this would more then likely slow things down inside the camera.

Personally though, I don't trust either camera technology to give me exactly what I want straight out of the camera so I typically shut most things off and shoot RAW then in post processing I can achieve either the traditional Nikon look or a look similar to Canon.

Now several of you have seen this before but as you can clearly see a clean sharp picture is possible from CCD as well.



--

'The only real currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with each other when we're being uncool.' -- Cameron Crowe

 

[ryusen]

Great overview. I would also like to add that many CCD cameras use a second "dark frame" technique to reduce noise at slow shutter speeds. basically, it will take a sceond frame, of pure black, to measure where the noise is and use that to try and eliminate the noise in the actual photo. Usually this means that CCD cameras will take much longer to handle long exposures. This is partially due to the fact that CCDs tend to get noisier the longer they are left "on." I THINK this is due to heat sensitivity.

--
Ryusen: Stand up Philosopher
http://www.pbase.com/ryusenkai/

ryusenkai.org for some pictures. Early shots taken with Canon G-1, later stuff with 300D

 

[Kalus]

But the CCD in the 717 isn't in the same league as the CMOS in the 300D so it's silly to leave CCD behind over that, look at 1Ds images and tell me they're anything like a 717.

but you dont have a CCD version for the same shot for comparison,
do you?

too much in-camera processing is not appreciated by many dslr
users, it's good that 300d takes soft pics straight out of the
box...dunno about the nikon...perhaps another issue considered by
many people

http://www.pbase.com/image/25560730/original

I left CCD behind.

first of all..i'm not trying to stir up another 'holy war'
defending 'mine's better!'

second, i do believe there are tons of people thinking of getting a
300D on this forum...thus i consider this is 300d related
topic...not OT

when someone brought up the D70 issue...i believe for those who are
pondering between 300d and D70, two major concerns:

1. pics from CMOS and CCD taste different...according to some
threads i read here, what do you think on this? what kind of
different tastes then?sharpness? expousure tendency? saturation? or
others?

2.for those comparing the D70 and 300D, i'd like to remind that, it
doesn't read anywhere about the metering 'selectability' on the
D70, right?

thanks in advance...your comments are appreciated

--
'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as
you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

--
'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as
you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

 

[codec]

great inputs on CCD and CMOS folks! share them if you know more.

Great overview. I would also like to add that many CCD cameras use
a second "dark frame" technique to reduce noise at slow shutter
speeds. basically, it will take a sceond frame, of pure black, to
measure where the noise is and use that to try and eliminate the
noise in the actual photo. Usually this means that CCD cameras
will take much longer to handle long exposures. This is partially
due to the fact that CCDs tend to get noisier the longer they are
left "on." I THINK this is due to heat sensitivity.

--
Ryusen: Stand up Philosopher
http://www.pbase.com/ryusenkai/
ryusenkai.org for some pictures. Early shots taken with Canon G-1,
later stuff with 300D

 

[The Krakken]

Since the MP count is closer, they appeal to roughly the same market segment, and they use the different technologies. Its clear with the introduction of the 1D MK II that Canon is committed to CMOS for the long haul.

but you dont have a CCD version for the same shot for comparison,
do you?

too much in-camera processing is not appreciated by many dslr
users, it's good that 300d takes soft pics straight out of the
box...dunno about the nikon...perhaps another issue considered by
many people

http://www.pbase.com/image/25560730/original

I left CCD behind.

first of all..i'm not trying to stir up another 'holy war'
defending 'mine's better!'

second, i do believe there are tons of people thinking of getting a
300D on this forum...thus i consider this is 300d related
topic...not OT

when someone brought up the D70 issue...i believe for those who are
pondering between 300d and D70, two major concerns:

1. pics from CMOS and CCD taste different...according to some
threads i read here, what do you think on this? what kind of
different tastes then?sharpness? expousure tendency? saturation? or
others?

2.for those comparing the D70 and 300D, i'd like to remind that, it
doesn't read anywhere about the metering 'selectability' on the
D70, right?

thanks in advance...your comments are appreciated

--
'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as
you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

--
'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as
you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

--

'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

 

[The Krakken]

At similar megapixel counts the comparison is not all that invalid at all. A closer comparison of course would be a Nikon, but I don't have Nikon Glass...and I am not about to go out and buy any either.

but you dont have a CCD version for the same shot for comparison,
do you?

too much in-camera processing is not appreciated by many dslr
users, it's good that 300d takes soft pics straight out of the
box...dunno about the nikon...perhaps another issue considered by
many people

http://www.pbase.com/image/25560730/original

I left CCD behind.

first of all..i'm not trying to stir up another 'holy war'
defending 'mine's better!'

second, i do believe there are tons of people thinking of getting a
300D on this forum...thus i consider this is 300d related
topic...not OT

when someone brought up the D70 issue...i believe for those who are
pondering between 300d and D70, two major concerns:

1. pics from CMOS and CCD taste different...according to some
threads i read here, what do you think on this? what kind of
different tastes then?sharpness? expousure tendency? saturation? or
others?

2.for those comparing the D70 and 300D, i'd like to remind that, it
doesn't read anywhere about the metering 'selectability' on the
D70, right?

thanks in advance...your comments are appreciated

--
'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as
you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

--
'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as
you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

--
'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as
you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

--

'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

 

[Kalus]

You forgot that a CCD can use over 100 times as much power as an equivalent CMOS and are usually more expensive too.

And CMOS can be more suseptable to noise due to how it aquires the pixel data.

In the end neither type is better then the other as they both have they're ups and downs and its just how good the manufcaturer makes the sensor as to wether the CMOS or CCD is better (otherwise canon would be stupid to use a CCD in the 1D's)

Do you realize that to date Canon's most popular digital with pros
is probably the 1D... So the favorite on that side (followed by
the 1Ds which most can't afford) is still based on the CCD...

As far as everything I've read from the likes of Kodak, MIT and
places such as that which publish white papers on the internet
there are only two big differences...

The CMOS technology isn't as sensitive to light as the CCD is (the
CCD is between 2 and 4 times more sensitive) and this makes the
fill factor of the CMOS less capable then the CCD... It's
interesting because the way it is described is that the CMOS tends
to capture similar detail (meaning you can see the same things) but
it isn't as prevalent as when using a CCD.

The CCD technology can only reduce noise in the image as a whole
whereas CMOS is capable of doing it for each photosite. This makes
it tough to setup a camera with the same exact NR properties as a
CMOS sensor... This can be done but it requires a second chip and
this would more then likely slow things down inside the camera.

Personally though, I don't trust either camera technology to give
me exactly what I want straight out of the camera so I typically
shut most things off and shoot RAW then in post processing I can
achieve either the traditional Nikon look or a look similar to
Canon.

Now several of you have seen this before but as you can clearly see
a clean sharp picture is possible from CCD as well.



--
'The only real currency in this bankrupt world is what we share
with each other when we're being uncool.' -- Cameron Crowe

 

[Dave Van't Hof]

You forgot that a CCD can use over 100 times as much power as an
equivalent CMOS and are usually more expensive too.

Yes, I get over 6x the number of pictures from my 300d as I did from my Dimage 7 on a battery charge. I'm sure there are many other factors involved here such as support electronics, but nonetheless, I'm sure the lower power cmos sensor helps.

And CMOS can be more suseptable to noise due to how it aquires the
pixel data.

In the end neither type is better then the other as they both have
they're ups and downs and its just how good the manufcaturer makes
the sensor as to wether the CMOS or CCD is better (otherwise canon
would be stupid to use a CCD in the 1D's)

What about dynamic range of the two sensor types? Do they both have
similar ranges?

Thanks
Dave

 

[iGass]

Hi Guys,

First, I really liked the photo Krakken, it proves that you are a good photographer, However as a good photographer you should know that the lens used will play a huge role in th epicture quality. So if we want to compare, let us compare fairly. I still belive myself that CMOS is better then CCD, until I see the first pictures from the D70 to see if there is any enhancements. The idea is to keep an open mind, and always be fair.

Cheers

Gass

I sure hope they fix it. The extra stop of light was the only
reason I chose it over the Canon F4L.

but you dont have a CCD version for the same shot for comparison,
do you?

too much in-camera processing is not appreciated by many dslr
users, it's good that 300d takes soft pics straight out of the
box...dunno about the nikon...perhaps another issue considered by
many people

http://www.pbase.com/image/25560730/original

I left CCD behind.

first of all..i'm not trying to stir up another 'holy war'
defending 'mine's better!'

second, i do believe there are tons of people thinking of getting a
300D on this forum...thus i consider this is 300d related
topic...not OT

when someone brought up the D70 issue...i believe for those who are
pondering between 300d and D70, two major concerns:

1. pics from CMOS and CCD taste different...according to some
threads i read here, what do you think on this? what kind of
different tastes then?sharpness? expousure tendency? saturation? or
others?

2.for those comparing the D70 and 300D, i'd like to remind that, it
doesn't read anywhere about the metering 'selectability' on the
D70, right?

thanks in advance...your comments are appreciated

--
'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as
you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

--
'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as
you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

--
'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as
you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

 

[BigPiggy]

Kallus wrote:
...."the sensor as to wether the CMOS or CCD is better (otherwise canon
would be stupid to use a CCD in the 1D's)"

?? Sorry... Are you sure? as far as I remeber Phill Askey Review Canon DO NOT use CCD in the 1Ds :

"...Sensor Type: - 11.4 megapixel CMOS Sensor "

CCD was only in 1D camera... but even new 1D Mark II have CMOS Sensor

I belive that CMOS should be better - Even new Foveon technology on Sigma cameras use CMOS sensor, not CCD

Piggy

 

[tommy_douglas_NDP]

The 1D has a 4 MP CCD senosr. The 1Ds has an 11 megapixel CMOS. The 1D Mk. II has an 8 MP CMOS.

Canon orignaly chose a 3rd party 4 MP CCD for speed reasons the 1D is aimed at sports photographers and photojurnalists. I can shoot at 8fps. It seems they have improved their in-house CMOS designs as the Mk. II, at twice th res can shoot at 8.5.

Steven

Kallus wrote:
...."the sensor as to wether the CMOS or CCD is better (otherwise canon
would be stupid to use a CCD in the 1D's)"

?? Sorry... Are you sure? as far as I remeber Phill Askey Review
Canon DO NOT use CCD in the 1Ds :

"...Sensor Type: - 11.4 megapixel CMOS Sensor "

CCD was only in 1D camera... but even new 1D Mark II have CMOS Sensor

I belive that CMOS should be better - Even new Foveon technology on
Sigma cameras use CMOS sensor, not CCD

Piggy

 

[lasm]

The CMOS technology isn't as sensitive to light as the CCD is (the
CCD is between 2 and 4 times more sensitive) and this makes the
fill factor of the CMOS less capable then the CCD... It's
interesting because the way it is described is that the CMOS tends
to capture similar detail (meaning you can see the same things) but
it isn't as prevalent as when using a CCD.

hmm... that could account for the light sensitivity

D100 EV -1 to 19
D70 EV -1 to 19
DReb EV 0.5 to 18

I wonder if that translates to low light sensitvity for the D70..

--
http://gallery29564.fotopic.net/

 

[ryusen]

I just bought the Sigma 70-200 f/2.8 and i think it's soft at 2.8 do you have any samples with which i could compare?

Maybe I'll do it anyway, whenever my lens gets back from Sigma.
Wouldn't you know it, that same lens was soft at f2.8???

I sure hope they fix it. The extra stop of light was the only
reason I chose it over the Canon F4L.

--
Ryusen: Stand up Philosopher
http://www.pbase.com/ryusenkai/

ryusenkai.org for some pictures. Early shots taken with Canon G-1, later stuff with 300D

 

[BigPiggy]

Canon orignaly chose a 3rd party 4 MP CCD for speed reasons the 1D
is aimed at sports photographers and photojurnalists. I can shoot
at 8fps. It seems they have improved their in-house CMOS designs as
the Mk. II, at twice th res can shoot at 8.5.

Steven

Kallus wrote:
...."the sensor as to wether the CMOS or CCD is better (otherwise canon
would be stupid to use a CCD in the 1D's)"

?? Sorry... Are you sure? as far as I remeber Phill Askey Review
Canon DO NOT use CCD in the 1Ds :

"...Sensor Type: - 11.4 megapixel CMOS Sensor "

CCD was only in 1D camera... but even new 1D Mark II have CMOS Sensor

I belive that CMOS should be better - Even new Foveon technology on
Sigma cameras use CMOS sensor, not CCD

Piggy