blurry images, awful out-of-focus rendering

[reach0775]

Hi,

Equipment: X-T20 + XF 18-55mm F/2.8-4 R LM OIS

before people jump on me: I have shown many of my RAW files to my local dealer (who is a Fuji enthusiast) and he confirms there must be an issue. He suggests to send the brand new camera in for repair.

Why I'm posting this is because the issue is so weird:

I have some pictures which are out of focus, which barely could be (landscape, long time to compose, big DOF, very short exposure times) but many more, if not all pictures where everything which isn't right in focus just looks awful. Like a bokeh from hell. Details like grass, leafs, wooden textures makes you want to rub your eyes. It's not out of focus, but somehow blurry.

The weirdest thing is that this mostly happens just to parts of the pictures. I have thought of

- a de-centered lens

- shutter shock

- defect OIS

- defect AF

- RAW converter issues

None of these would cause issues just in parts of the image. Except the last one, RAW converter, this I excluded by doing an in-camera conversion for some pictures - exactly the same result as in Lightroom.

It would make sense to experiment with a different lens, best a prime, but I don't have one at hand, so I first ask the community.

I could post hundreds of examples. Here is just one arbitrary one. 1/750, f5.6, ISO 200. See the full image for context and a crop of the left part of the image.





I found this thread https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4150729 which, as I believe is exactly MY issue. The example pictures aren't online any more, but from the text description, I'm sure it's the same. Unfortunately that guy didn't explain in detail what they repaired and how it improved.

 

[baobob]

The only way to test a lens or a combo camera + lens is to use a dedicated chart

With the samples posted it is very difficult for me to see to what extent it is weird...

With the chart you can test any FL any aperture

With your sample sthere are so many potential factors that couls cat that it makes difficult to assess the issue

Bob

 

[reach0775]

Great test shots from a tripod in the lab won't make my real life pictures better.

Apart from this, I don't have a 250m2 big test chart, so I can test my lens at the distances from which I usually take my shots.

It is because of this attitude of "good chart picture = good equipment" why I'm afraid to send my camera to Fuji. Chances are good they'll return it, saying all is well.

 

[Vincent AF]

Hi,

Equipment: X-T20 + XF 18-55mm F/2.8-4 R LM OIS

before people jump on me: I have shown many of my RAW files to my local dealer (who is a Fuji enthusiast) and he confirms there must be an issue. He suggests to send the brand new camera in for repair.

Why I'm posting this is because the issue is so weird:

I have some pictures which are out of focus, which barely could be (landscape, long time to compose, big DOF, very short exposure times) but many more, if not all pictures where everything which isn't right in focus just looks awful. Like a bokeh from hell. Details like grass, leafs, wooden textures makes you want to rub your eyes. It's not out of focus, but somehow blurry.

The weirdest thing is that this mostly happens just to parts of the pictures. I have thought of

- a de-centered lens

- shutter shock

- defect OIS

- defect AF

- RAW converter issues

None of these would cause issues just in parts of the image. Except the last one, RAW converter, this I excluded by doing an in-camera conversion for some pictures - exactly the same result as in Lightroom.

It would make sense to experiment with a different lens, best a prime, but I don't have one at hand, so I first ask the community.

I could post hundreds of examples. Here is just one arbitrary one. 1/750, f5.6, ISO 200. See the full image for context and a crop of the left part of the image.





I found this thread https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4150729 which, as I believe is exactly MY issue. The example pictures aren't online any more, but from the text description, I'm sure it's the same. Unfortunately that guy didn't explain in detail what they repaired and how it improved.

If this is what you get SOOC, than send it back, it's faulty.

It looks simply like bad RAW rendering with detail settings way too high. I almost can't believe you got this out of the cam/lens combo used.

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[Yannis1976]

Hi,

Equipment: X-T20 + XF 18-55mm F/2.8-4 R LM OIS

before people jump on me: I have shown many of my RAW files to my local dealer (who is a Fuji enthusiast) and he confirms there must be an issue. He suggests to send the brand new camera in for repair.

As you wrote later in your message, the best way to test is to use another lens with the same subject. I assume your local dealer could give you a lens at the shop to test the body...

Why I'm posting this is because the issue is so weird:

I have some pictures which are out of focus, which barely could be (landscape, long time to compose, big DOF, very short exposure times) but many more, if not all pictures where everything which isn't right in focus just looks awful. Like a bokeh from hell. Details like grass, leafs, wooden textures makes you want to rub your eyes. It's not out of focus, but somehow blurry.

The weirdest thing is that this mostly happens just to parts of the pictures. I have thought of

- a de-centered lens

- shutter shock

- defect OIS

- defect AF

- RAW converter issues

I am no camera/lens engineer but could it be also the diaphragm blades of the lens? Also does it happen to both mechanical and electronic shutter?

None of these would cause issues just in parts of the image. Except the last one, RAW converter, this I excluded by doing an in-camera conversion for some pictures - exactly the same result as in Lightroom.

It would make sense to experiment with a different lens, best a prime, but I don't have one at hand, so I first ask the community.

I could post hundreds of examples. Here is just one arbitrary one. 1/750, f5.6, ISO 200. See the full image for context and a crop of the left part of the image.





I found this thread https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4150729 which, as I believe is exactly MY issue. The example pictures aren't online any more, but from the text description, I'm sure it's the same. Unfortunately that guy didn't explain in detail what they repaired and how it improved.

--
Yannis

Yannis Tzevelekos

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www.flickr.com

https://www.viewbug.com/member/Yannis76

 

[Warcco]

Wow, that is indeed horrible. Try without image stabilization to see if that’s the fault.

 

[reach0775]

Thanks for the support. At least you see it too. I was thinking I'm mad.

IMO IS and shutter can't be the problem, else everything would be blurry. However, I'll try.

I found something else: I had set the RAW-saving to "compressed" instead of uncompressed. I've read at several occasions that many, many testers confirmed there's no difference. But bad RAW compression could exactly be what's causing such an issue.

What speaks against the theory is that I also have one set of JPG-only pictures which show the exact same pattern. But who knows, if the camera internally first compresses and only then converts to JPG, it could still be the case.

I'll keep you posted.

 

[Bill Ferris]

Looking at the one sample photo you've provided (the second image is a crop from the first photo), I don't see a problem. At 55mm, f/5.6 and focused on a subject 10-feet or nearer in distance, the depth of field is no greater than a bit over 2-feet...shallower if the subject is nearer than 10-feet.

The focal plane is easy to identify in the full image. It's expected that the foreground and background will appear out-of-focus. The lens used (18-55mm f/2.8-4 OIS) is not sharp all the way to the corners or sides. It is, after all, a kit lens. But the center of the image looks properly sharp and in-focus.

The bokeh (quality of de-focused blur) is consistent with shooting from a standing position and looking down toward the ground. The air at ground level is not as stable as air even 10-15 feet above ground level. You're shooting down through unsteady air, which gives a the bokeh a "nervous" quality.

To gain a better understanding and appreciation of depth of field and bokeh, I recommend you set up a simple at-home test. (No test charts are required.) Setup a toy or some other item on a tray table to serve as your subject. Position that so you'll have something a few feet in the foreground and a similar distance in the background. Setup your camera and lens on a tripod and positioned at the same height as the subject with the subject filling much of the frame at 18mm. Make a series of exposures, one one at f/2.8, a second at f/5.6, a third at f/8 and a fourth at f/16. Repeat this at several other focal lengths spanning the lens' range. Reposition the camera for each focal length to approximately match the degree to which your subject fills the frame. While you're shooting this set, you might also experiment with the various autofocus options to see which on delivers the most consistently accurate results.

In the end, you'll have a better familiarity with and understanding of your gear, and how different settings impact the image produced. Good luck to you.

 

[cilucia]

purchased brand new?

 

[reach0775]

Unfortunately not. In my country a dealer is not obliged to exchange things. He just can send it in to the manufacturer.

He might replace it as special customer service, but since it's not obviously broken and, as you see, also here in this forum there are people not recognizing the issue, he doesn't have much reason to do so.

 

[reach0775]

Sir, I appreciate you're trying to be helpful, but if you don't see an issue in this picture, I'm not sure if you're the right one to hold lectures.

BTW 1) this lens may be sold as a kit with the camera, but it is Fuji's top range for zooms (at least, as long as Fuji doesn't relveal their secret what "red badge" is supposed to mean)

BTW 2) you may argue about the distance of the blurry branch over the sharp flower, but your argument that this is due to soft corners is just bogus. The sharp flower is equally far off center as the branch above it.

 

[Erik Baumgartner]

While I agree that you've got some rather unattractive bokeh there, I'm betting it's more or less normal for that lens, at that aperture, at that focal length and at that focal distance with that degree of sharpening. You should set up your camera in a similar situation on a tripod and shoot a series of shots at different apertures and different focal lengths to see if the ugly bokeh is constant or if it varies. Also adjusting your sharpening so that it doesn't affect out of focus areas as much as in focus areas can make quite a difference. Most lenses can look ugly in certain situations, some more than others. Trying another 18-55 lens next to this one is really the only way to settle this. If you could share one of your RAFs, I'd like to see if there's a way to improve your results a bit.

 

[The Davinator]

The nervous bokeh has nothing to do with the air. What a load of twaddle

 

[WhateverNickname]

Decentered lens or is the OIS doing something funny.

it looks like eeveyr element has halos around. I do not own the lens, so I do nit know if that is its. Normal behaviour.

 

[Bill Ferris]

The nervous bokeh has nothing to do with the air. What a load of twaddle

There is nothing wrong with the sample image he posted. If you can't see that, you've no business commenting on ground level seeing.

 

[Bill Ferris]

Sir, I appreciate you're trying to be helpful, but if you don't see an issue in this picture, I'm not sure if you're the right one to hold lectures.

The sample image you've shared does not indicate any problems with your new camera. There's a clear focus plane and the depth of field is normal for the lens, focal length and f-stop you used. Nothing about the bokeh indicates a mechanical or optical problem, either.

 

[Lettermanian]

Hi,

Equipment: X-T20 + XF 18-55mm F/2.8-4 R LM OIS

Basic check: Firmware updated to the most current versions? Did you reset the camera after you bought it? Some settings could easily have been played around with in the store.

before people jump on me: I have shown many of my RAW files to my local dealer (who is a Fuji enthusiast) and he confirms there must be an issue. He suggests to send the brand new camera in for repair.

Camera and lens if you want it tested correctly. There are some simple tests you can do yourself, which have been suggested to you by other members, but you have scorned those suggestions. Why?

Why I'm posting this is because the issue is so weird:

I have some pictures which are out of focus, which barely could be (landscape, long time to compose, big DOF, very short exposure times) but many more, if not all pictures where everything which isn't right in focus just looks awful. Like a bokeh from hell. Details like grass, leafs, wooden textures makes you want to rub your eyes. It's not out of focus, but somehow blurry.

The weirdest thing is that this mostly happens just to parts of the pictures. I have thought of

- a de-centered lens

Then test it under more controlled conditions than the one sample you provided. Are your "hundreds of examples" all of the same scene, under the exact same shooting conditions? Did you flip the camera upside down on this sunflower field shot and compare if the right side of the image has the same ugly blur? Even if you did do that, the subject isn't uniform, so how can you tell unless you test the lens in a much more controlled way (as has been suggested)? Real-world images might show the problem, but properly testing the gear might actually show the cause of the problem.

- shutter shock

Not a common complaint that I've seen on the Fuji forum, but worth testing.

- defect OIS

Could be, but should be tested under more controlled conditions. Google "OIS and high shutter speed" and read about some possible factors in using lens-based stabilisation. Here's an interesting discussion on the issue on a different forum. Perhaps OIS at high shutter speeds is yielding some weird results? Hmm, maybe it should be tested.

- defect AF

The X-T20 has several custom AF presets and other settings that all affect AF. You know what I'm going to say: test it under more controlled conditions. It's time-consuming but you'll be much more armed with information if it has to be sent in to Fuji.

- RAW converter issues

I shoot jpeg. Mostly. The threads on Fuji and RAW converters are endless.

None of these would cause issues just in parts of the image. Except the last one, RAW converter, this I excluded by doing an in-camera conversion for some pictures - exactly the same result as in Lightroom.

It would make sense to experiment

Experiment: " a scientific procedure undertaken to make a discovery, test a hypothesis, or demonstrate a known fact." - Google dictionary.

Hundreds of examples indicating a possible problem are only the first step in a troubleshooting process. If you haven't figured out the problem by now, and can't return or exchange the camera, do the work and test your gear in a more controlled, uniform way.

with a different lens

Or your own first, properly tested...

, best a prime, but I don't have one at hand, so I first ask the community.

But you shoot down the most effective suggestions to find out what the problem is. Hmm.

I could post hundreds of examples. Here is just one arbitrary one. 1/750, f5.6, ISO 200. See the full image for context and a crop of the left part of the image.





I found this thread https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4150729 which, as I believe is exactly MY issue. The example pictures aren't online any more, but from the text description, I'm sure it's the same. Unfortunately that guy didn't explain in detail what they repaired and how it improved.

Again, the more accurate and specific information you can give Fuji, the better their response will be in dealing with it. Good luck!



--
"Turn my eyes from looking at worthless things;
and give me life in your ways." - Psalm 119:37

 

[BobsYourUncle]

There will be a variety of opinions from nothing wrong to everything is wrong. And, OP, Bill was trying to help and was not condescending in his remarks. Hey, The Davinator.....be cool.

FWIW my first 18-55 Kit lens many moons ago would give blurrier results with OIS than without it. I don't think that is the issue here but let's continue in a more constructive way.

Bob (The MOD who is not in Hawaii right now)

 

[Batdude]

Looking at the one sample photo you've provided (the second image is a crop from the first photo), I don't see a problem. At 55mm, f/5.6 and focused on a subject 10-feet or nearer in distance, the depth of field is no greater than a bit over 2-feet...shallower if the subject is nearer than 10-feet.

The focal plane is easy to identify in the full image. It's expected that the foreground and background will appear out-of-focus. The lens used (18-55mm f/2.8-4 OIS) is not sharp all the way to the corners or sides. It is, after all, a kit lens. But the center of the image looks properly sharp and in-focus.

The bokeh (quality of de-focused blur) is consistent with shooting from a standing position and looking down toward the ground. The air at ground level is not as stable as air even 10-15 feet above ground level. You're shooting down through unsteady air, which gives a the bokeh a "nervous" quality.

To gain a better understanding and appreciation of depth of field and bokeh, I recommend you set up a simple at-home test. (No test charts are required.) Setup a toy or some other item on a tray table to serve as your subject. Position that so you'll have something a few feet in the foreground and a similar distance in the background. Setup your camera and lens on a tripod and positioned at the same height as the subject with the subject filling much of the frame at 18mm. Make a series of exposures, one one at f/2.8, a second at f/5.6, a third at f/8 and a fourth at f/16. Repeat this at several other focal lengths spanning the lens' range. Reposition the camera for each focal length to approximately match the degree to which your subject fills the frame. While you're shooting this set, you might also experiment with the various autofocus options to see which on delivers the most consistently accurate results.

In the end, you'll have a better familiarity with and understanding of your gear, and how different settings impact the image produced. Good luck to you.

I'm no landscape "expert" but I have to agree with everything you just said above. There is simply way too much stuff going in that photo and please take a photo of something way more simpler to see if there is even an issue. I too don't see absolutely anything wrong and I'm not sure if the OP wants to enlarge that particular photo otherwise why blow it up and ask about this? I don't blow up my pictures more than 30% to pixel peep so is this really necessary?

Take a picture of something simple then we'll talk ;-)

 

[dpr4bb]

Hi,

Equipment: X-T20 + XF 18-55mm F/2.8-4 R LM OIS

before people jump on me: I have shown many of my RAW files to my local dealer (who is a Fuji enthusiast) and he confirms there must be an issue. He suggests to send the brand new camera in for repair.

Why I'm posting this is because the issue is so weird:

I have some pictures which are out of focus, which barely could be (landscape, long time to compose, big DOF, very short exposure times) but many more, if not all pictures where everything which isn't right in focus just looks awful. Like a bokeh from hell. Details like grass, leafs, wooden textures makes you want to rub your eyes. It's not out of focus, but somehow blurry.

The weirdest thing is that this mostly happens just to parts of the pictures. I have thought of

- a de-centered lens

- shutter shock

- defect OIS

- defect AF

- RAW converter issues

None of these would cause issues just in parts of the image. Except the last one, RAW converter, this I excluded by doing an in-camera conversion for some pictures - exactly the same result as in Lightroom.

It would make sense to experiment with a different lens, best a prime, but I don't have one at hand, so I first ask the community.

I could post hundreds of examples. Here is just one arbitrary one. 1/750, f5.6, ISO 200. See the full image for context and a crop of the left part of the image.





I found this thread https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4150729 which, as I believe is exactly MY issue. The example pictures aren't online any more, but from the text description, I'm sure it's the same. Unfortunately that guy didn't explain in detail what they repaired and how it improved.

Listen, you are not going to get much sympathy here, as you can see for yourself. You’ve paid a pretty penny for your gear. If you’re not happy, make sure to get your money back as soon as possible. There is no assurance whatsoever that a “repair” will take care of your issue. Your gear may already “meet all specifications,” in which case there is nothing to repair.