APS-C or Full Frame?

[Jesper Frickmann]

I rather like Zack Arias' take on it: http://petapixel.com/2014/07/28/cro...-world-look-at-the-crop-vs-full-frame-debate/
Enjoy

 

[Walie]

Let's see what he says when Fuji releases a FF camera

 

[W5JCK]

I watched the first 5 minutes and got bored watching him babble on a say absolutely nothing of importance. It was just a show. It reminded me of the lack of logic you see in the average Sunday sermon. My view is show me the science or STFU. I've got both FF and APS-C and they both have their places in photography. I have no idea if he ever quit the showmanship and talked facts, but he lost my attention with all that showmanship BS.

 

[love_them_all]

There can be a million ways to answer that question but it really comes down to one thing to me - lens choices/ownership. I have legacy lenses, tons of them, and I still like their performances. So the choice is easy.

If you start with APS-C, and do not want to buy FF lenses shorter than 50mm, there is really no headache. The headache comes from people who are obsessed with equivalence, the extra slice off the DOF, etc.

If somebody starts talking about format because of certain resolution, hi ISO performance, body features, etc. Then they already know what they should get, or trying to convert others to what they think is right for them. To me, it is not serving the original purpose anymore...

Arguments like "smaller sensors are better" - then the Nikon 1 or Pentax Q should be better than APS-C. "Bigger sensors are better" - then medium format and up should be the choice. It will keep going back and forth to the infinity.

I rather like Zack Arias' take on it: http://petapixel.com/2014/07/28/cro...-world-look-at-the-crop-vs-full-frame-debate/
Enjoy

 

[GaryW]

love_them_all wrote:....

Arguments like "smaller sensors are better" - then the Nikon 1 or Pentax Q should be better than APS-C. "Bigger sensors are better" - then medium format and up should be the choice. It will keep going back and forth to the infinity.

True, except there are a couple of conditions that can bust you out of that loop:

1. Bigger is better, but at some point, what you have is good enough for your purposes.
2. Given two different sensor sizes, if the system with the larger size is about the same price, it may make sense to just go with the larger sensor system.

 

[blue_skies]

I ended up reading the article, but it left me very non-impressed.

Zack comes across as a FF bigot who has discovered that you "can print decent A4 pages" from (only Fuji?) APS-C sensors.

Paper, for one, has a very limited DR, and the world has moved on, a lot, since digital sensors invaded FF film.

Also, an X100S as a "super compact" camera makes me wonder who Zack's targeted audience is.

Perhaps Zach should try some of the newer cell phone cameras (G3?) and be really surprised...

I know a local photographer here who still uses his 12Mp Nikon D700 because, he says, he knows exactly what he'll get. And he prints large (canvas).

Nikon, currently, still offers 12Mp FF cameras (and 10 Mp Dx cameras). My point being that the choice of format goes beyond resolution, ultimate sharpness, DR.

A friend of mine has a beautiful 3'x2' print of a photo of his daughter hanging in his living room ... taken with a 6Mp P&S camera. Again, resolution, sharpness & DR do not play a role here.

Sensor format discussions can be endless. And 'better' is often not determined by the format, but rather by the photographer and the subject.

I 'added' FF to my gear with the A7, and although I am both pleased and impressed with the results, I have no intent of 'leaving' APS-C.

ymmv.

 

[Pepe-Lepue]

love_them_all wrote:....

Arguments like "smaller sensors are better" - then the Nikon 1 or Pentax Q should be better than APS-C. "Bigger sensors are better" - then medium format and up should be the choice. It will keep going back and forth to the infinity.

True, except there are a couple of conditions that can bust you out of that loop:

1. Bigger is better, but at some point, what you have is good enough for your purposes.
2. Given two different sensor sizes, if the system with the larger size is about the same price, it may make sense to just go with the larger sensor system.

 

[Brian_Smith]

Let's see what he says when Fuji releases a FF camera

He likely just told you that they won't...

 

[Mel Snyder]

I ended up reading the article, but it left me very non-impressed.

Zack comes across as a FF bigot who has discovered that you "can print decent A4 pages" from (only Fuji?) APS-C sensors.

Paper, for one, has a very limited DR, and the world has moved on, a lot, since digital sensors invaded FF film.

Also, an X100S as a "super compact" camera makes me wonder who Zack's targeted audience is.

Perhaps Zach should try some of the newer cell phone cameras (G3?) and be really surprised...

I know a local photographer here who still uses his 12Mp Nikon D700 because, he says, he knows exactly what he'll get. And he prints large (canvas).

Nikon, currently, still offers 12Mp FF cameras (and 10 Mp Dx cameras). My point being that the choice of format goes beyond resolution, ultimate sharpness, DR.

A friend of mine has a beautiful 3'x2' print of a photo of his daughter hanging in his living room ... taken with a 6Mp P&S camera. Again, resolution, sharpness & DR do not play a role here.

Sensor format discussions can be endless. And 'better' is often not determined by the format, but rather by the photographer and the subject.

I 'added' FF to my gear with the A7, and although I am both pleased and impressed with the results, I have no intent of 'leaving' APS-C.

ymmv.

 

[Ray Maines]

Or at least what I heard Zack say is that larger sensors are better, but the difference between APS/C and FF isn't enough to get all worked up about.

If you're living or dieing on that last little shred of difference, then by all means buy the bigger sensor. Truthfully, most of us aren't and m4/3 or APS/C cameras likely have all the IQ you need.

The best thing he said was at the end of the video: (Total Paraphrase here) Creativity, color, and composition are NOT format dependent. All of the things really important to a great photograph are in your head, not camera.

 

[Pepe-Lepue]

Or at least what I heard Zack say is that larger sensors are better, but the difference between APS/C and FF isn't enough to get all worked up about.

If you're living or dieing on that last little shred of difference, then by all means buy the bigger sensor. Truthfully, most of us aren't and m4/3 or APS/C cameras likely have all the IQ you need.

The best thing he said was at the end of the video: (Total Paraphrase here) Creativity, color, and composition are NOT format dependent. All of the things really important to a great photograph are in your head, not camera.

 

[Jesper Frickmann]

Frankly, I just thought that he was really funny, and I wanted to share that. I love my NEX-6, but everyone to his/her own for camera choice, as long as you enjoy shooting. If you feel that your A7R isn't quite enough for you, then consider supporting these guys: http://magnacamera.com/ ;-)

 

[Clayton1985]

Or at least what I heard Zack say is that larger sensors are better, but the difference between APS/C and FF isn't enough to get all worked up about.

If you're living or dieing on that last little shred of difference, then by all means buy the bigger sensor. Truthfully, most of us aren't and m4/3 or APS/C cameras likely have all the IQ you need.

The best thing he said was at the end of the video: (Total Paraphrase here) Creativity, color, and composition are NOT format dependent. All of the things really important to a great photograph are in your head, not camera.

I think often the assumption is made that someone chooses full frame because of "IQ".... whatever that actually means. IMO, there are other reasons someone might choose a full frame camera..... compatibility with lenses you prefer, resolution, features specific to the camera that happens to be full frame but not related to the sensor size (AF performance, dual card slots, weather sealing, etc)..... and yes I understand that many features that used to be exclusive to full frame are available in other formats but that varies quite a bit depending on the brand. In some cases you still might have to go full frame to get the combination of features you want - even if you would otherwise be fine with a smaller sensor.

 

[love_them_all]

Canon FF is still my main gear, but I am also shooting Fuji for the lovely colors which has nothing to do with sensor size. And I have 3 Fuji lenses already.

If you want some serious down sizing and light weight, the Sony A7 bodies are excellent choices. I use canon lenses on it too, but the AF is slow as hell. AFAIK it is a slightly better choice than the Fuji because the adapter offers aperture control. And the peaking feature in Sony is better.

love_them_all wrote:....

Arguments like "smaller sensors are better" - then the Nikon 1 or Pentax Q should be better than APS-C. "Bigger sensors are better" - then medium format and up should be the choice. It will keep going back and forth to the infinity.

True, except there are a couple of conditions that can bust you out of that loop:

1. Bigger is better, but at some point, what you have is good enough for your purposes.
2. Given two different sensor sizes, if the system with the larger size is about the same price, it may make sense to just go with the larger sensor system.

--
Gary W.

Price wasn't an issue for me. I went with APS-C as the reduced weight of my bag is conducive to me taking my gear more places rather than leaving it at home.
I shot full frame for years. I'm not going back.
--
'I am ze locksmith of love, no?'
Stephen Reed

 

[Ray Maines]

Ray Maines wrote: ...

I think often the assumption is made that someone chooses full frame because of "IQ".... whatever that actually means. IMO, there are other reasons someone might choose a full frame camera..... compatibility with lenses you prefer, resolution, features specific to the camera that happens to be full frame but not related to the sensor size .... In some cases you still might have to go full frame to get the combination of features you want - even if you would otherwise be fine with a smaller sensor.

I couldn't agree more. In fact I really don't care why a person buys the gear they do, or what gear they buy, but I think some of the technobabble espoused by supporters of FF cameras is kind of silly and Zack seems to agree.

The only real weakness of Zacks presentation is that he said (at least twice) that you can't tell the difference between formats in a "print". I've never tried to display my APS/C photo's on a 50" High Def TV, so I don't know if that would make any difference but Zack didn't seem to want to go there.

 

[Sean_Jayhawk]

Ray Maines wrote: ...

I think often the assumption is made that someone chooses full frame because of "IQ".... whatever that actually means. IMO, there are other reasons someone might choose a full frame camera..... compatibility with lenses you prefer, resolution, features specific to the camera that happens to be full frame but not related to the sensor size .... In some cases you still might have to go full frame to get the combination of features you want - even if you would otherwise be fine with a smaller sensor.

I couldn't agree more. In fact I really don't care why a person buys the gear they do, or what gear they buy, but I think some of the technobabble espoused by supporters of FF cameras is kind of silly and Zack seems to agree.

The only real weakness of Zacks presentation is that he said (at least twice) that you can't tell the difference between formats in a "print". I've never tried to display my APS/C photo's on a 50" High Def TV, so I don't know if that would make any difference but Zack didn't seem to want to go there.

And then there is the Voigtlander Nokton 35/1.2 II I use. I get the perspective and out of focus blur I desire when I use the lens on my A7 at f/1.2. It turns into a 50(FF perspective) on my NEX 5N and I lose a stop of light and some of the qualities I desire in my out of focus areas. I am limited to FF because costs go way up from the A7 to medium format (digital anyway . . . I do have an old 645 film medium format camera I recently acquired).

--
My recent favorite shots

 

[abortabort]

Let's see what he says when Fuji releases a FF camera

He likely just told you that they won't...

 

[pixelpushing]

Or at least what I heard Zack say is that larger sensors are better, but the difference between APS/C and FF isn't enough to get all worked up about.

If you're living or dieing on that last little shred of difference, then by all means buy the bigger sensor. Truthfully, most of us aren't and m4/3 or APS/C cameras likely have all the IQ you need.

Then there's those of us getting more than a 'little shred of difference' out of our FF cameras.

I always chuckle at people telling me 'this is all the IQ you need'. Really?

The best thing he said was at the end of the video: (Total Paraphrase here) Creativity, color, and composition are NOT format dependent.

It's a moronic strawman. Photography can be enhanced by a bigger format depending on your needs. Nobody is saying it obviates skill, knowledge, talent or technique.

All of the things really important to a great photograph are in your head, not camera.

You could say the same thing about a compact or phone cam.

 

[pixelpushing]

I think some of the technobabble espoused by supporters of FF cameras is kind of silly and Zack seems to agree.

Just as I think some of the justification for anti-FF proselytizing is gear-envy.

The only real weakness of Zacks presentation

...Was pretty much the premise, IMO. He's tilting at a windmill. FF users already know whether it suits their needs. Crop/smaller sensor people looking to upgrade likely won't be swayed. Anyone who's shot various formats already knows the plusses and minuses of each.

I'm thinking his sole audience are non-FF people annoyed with the encroachment by smaller, cheaper FF cameras.

 

[GaryW]

True, except there are a couple of conditions that can bust you out of that loop:

1. Bigger is better, but at some point, what you have is good enough for your purposes.
2. Given two different sensor sizes, if the system with the larger size is about the same price, it may make sense to just go with the larger sensor system.

Price wasn't an issue for me. I went with APS-C as the reduced weight of my bag is conducive to me taking my gear more places rather than leaving it at home.
I shot full frame for years. I'm not going back.

True, I should have added size/weight to my list. Get the largest sensor you can, in the smallest size that you might prefer, if that is important to you. (It is to me as well.)

As for the referenced article, I can't bring myself to read it.