Anyone struggling colour grading n-raw n-log footage with LUTs

[areallygrumpyoldsod]

Hi all

I am using DaVinci Resolve Studio 20.2 and revisiting about 8 hours of 8.3k N-log N-RAW HQ footage I shot while on safari in Kenya back in 2023.

I find that, unlike back in 2023, when I open each RAW clip the colours look GREAT, sure with possibly only some tiny improvement needed. BUT when I "try" to apply any LUT (including the new RED LUTs for a Nikon camera) the immediate results are TERRIBLE.

So the question to you is what am I doing wrong (other than playing with LUTs)

The colour management section of my project settings have color science set to DaVinci YRGB Color Managed and Automatic Colour Managed ticked (although this seems to make no difference - when unticked I select HDR DaVinci Wide Gamut Intermediate as color processing mode) and output is Rec.709 Gamma 2.2. No LUT is applied to the project or timeline. Under the Camera Raw tab I confirm the RAW profile is Nikon RAW and color space is Rec.2020 and Nikon N-log and make no other changes.

Given the first LUT I wish to apply is "N-Log_BT2020_to_REC709_BT1886_size_33" in the COLOR workspace I add 3 nodes with CST -- input to Rec.2020 N-Log; then Rec 2020 to DaVinci Wide Gamut/DaVinci Intermediate and finally DaVinci Wide Gamut/DaVinci Intermediate to Rec.709 Gamma 2.2.

I then added blank nodes after each CST which is where I try the LUT (only once per attempt)


Nodes 1, 2, 4 Color Space Transform. Nodes 5, 3, and 6 ready for LUT to be applied


Image after all CST applied and a small curve adjustment


Lut applied to node 5 which is Rec.2020 Nikon N-log like the footage

[ATTACH alt="Exposure reduced by 1.25 and Saturation to 0.61 in global adjustments - results in a vastly more contrasty and with "wired colours" hightenend magenta and oranges"]3776512[/ATTACH]
Exposure reduced by 1.25 and Saturation to 0.61 in global adjustments - results in a vastly more contrasty and with "wired colours" hightenend magenta and oranges

Applying the LUT anywhere else in the chain is even worse, which is not surprising because the working space after 02CST is DaVinci Wide Gamut/DaVinci Intermediate and then after node 04 Rec.709 Gamma 2.2 - whereas the LUT is N-Log_BT2020_to_REC709_BT1886_size_33.

As noted after applying the LUT to Node 5 I immediately had to reduce exposure by 1.25 and Saturation to 0.61 in global adjustments - results in a vastly more contrasty and with "wired colours" heightened magenta and oranges. All in all a far worse outcome than not applying the LUT at all. While I was not expecting a single just apply LUT and go solution I was expecting to edit individual colour channels and a whole lot more to get decent outputs.

Using the RED LUT "RED_FilmBias_Rec2020_N-Log_to_Rec709_BT1886" does a better job, but the same post LUTs adjustments are needed. The result is still more harsh that I prefer but a distinct improvement.


Using the RED LUT "RED_FilmBias_Rec2020_N-Log_to_Rec709_BT1886"

Does anyone else use DaVinci Resolve Studio 20.2 (or newer) on Z8/Z9 footage shot in N-RAW N-Log HQ and have you had success setting up your DVRS and using the "free" LUTS from Nikon in your colour grading of footage -- If YES are there any obvious mistakes I made or tips you care to share so I can learn how to do this much better/quickly.

--
areallygrumpyoldsod
Nikon and Hasselblad shooter -- wildlife and and --

Andy Miller Photo UK

Retired Wildlife photographer

www.andymillerphoto.co.uk

Andy Miller

Explore Andy Miller’s 23,387 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

I do not respond to PMs or messages via my website

 

[bing041]

Hi all

I am using DaVinci Resolve Studio 20.2 and revisiting about 8 hours of 8.3k N-log N-RAW HQ footage I shot while on safari in Kenya back in 2023.

I find that, unlike back in 2023, when I open each RAW clip the colours look GREAT, sure with possibly only some tiny improvement needed. BUT when I "try" to apply any LUT (including the new RED LUTs for a Nikon camera) the immediate results are TERRIBLE.

So the question to you is what am I doing wrong (other than playing with LUTs)

The colour management section of my project settings have color science set to DaVinci YRGB Color Managed and Automatic Colour Managed ticked (although this seems to make no difference - when unticked I select HDR DaVinci Wide Gamut Intermediate as color processing mode) and output is Rec.709 Gamma 2.2. No LUT is applied to the project or timeline. Under the Camera Raw tab I confirm the RAW profile is Nikon RAW and color space is Rec.2020 and Nikon N-log and make no other changes.

Given the first LUT I wish to apply is "N-Log_BT2020_to_REC709_BT1886_size_33" in the COLOR workspace I add 3 nodes with CST -- input to Rec.2020 N-Log; then Rec 2020 to DaVinci Wide Gamut/DaVinci Intermediate and finally DaVinci Wide Gamut/DaVinci Intermediate to Rec.709 Gamma 2.2.

I then added blank nodes after each CST which is where I try the LUT (only once per attempt)


Nodes 1, 2, 4 Color Space Transform. Nodes 5, 3, and 6 ready for LUT to be applied


Image after all CST applied and a small curve adjustment


Lut applied to node 5 which is Rec.2020 Nikon N-log like the footage

[ATTACH alt="Exposure reduced by 1.25 and Saturation to 0.61 in global adjustments - results in a vastly more contrasty and with "wired colours" hightenend magenta and oranges"]3776512[/ATTACH]
Exposure reduced by 1.25 and Saturation to 0.61 in global adjustments - results in a vastly more contrasty and with "wired colours" hightenend magenta and oranges

Applying the LUT anywhere else in the chain is even worse, which is not surprising because the working space after 02CST is DaVinci Wide Gamut/DaVinci Intermediate and then after node 04 Rec.709 Gamma 2.2 - whereas the LUT is N-Log_BT2020_to_REC709_BT1886_size_33.

As noted after applying the LUT to Node 5 I immediately had to reduce exposure by 1.25 and Saturation to 0.61 in global adjustments - results in a vastly more contrasty and with "wired colours" heightened magenta and oranges. All in all a far worse outcome than not applying the LUT at all. While I was not expecting a single just apply LUT and go solution I was expecting to edit individual colour channels and a whole lot more to get decent outputs.

Using the RED LUT "RED_FilmBias_Rec2020_N-Log_to_Rec709_BT1886" does a better job, but the same post LUTs adjustments are needed. The result is still more harsh that I prefer but a distinct improvement.


Using the RED LUT "RED_FilmBias_Rec2020_N-Log_to_Rec709_BT1886"

Does anyone else use DaVinci Resolve Studio 20.2 (or newer) on Z8/Z9 footage shot in N-RAW N-Log HQ and have you had success setting up your DVRS and using the "free" LUTS from Nikon in your colour grading of footage -- If YES are there any obvious mistakes I made or tips you care to share so I can learn how to do this much better/quickly.

I made a video shot in NRAW Nlog and rendered with a RED Nlog "film" LUT. I had the same experience at first you had, with adding the LUT resulting in bizarre colors. The key was to not have any color management, and then adding the LUT as an output LUT. The color management had converted automatically the RAW to REC709 gamma and gamut, and then the output LUT had gone from that. I do not use nodes, so I cannot help with what nodes sets you need. Basically input in REC2020 gamut and NLog gamma then output to the film color and gamut LUT that transforms from those two.

I don't like LUTs and I do not think these RED LUTs are anything great, but

here is what I got:

 

[Horshack]

For the Timeline -> N-Log/Rec.2020 CST node, change "Tone Mapping Method" from "Davinci" to "None"

 

[Tom Stites]

As so often seems to be the case with DVRS and usage of LUTS...and color management in general, it can be incredibly simple or impossibly complex.

Here is a screenshot of the color management screens and a node tree to do it the easy way...this works when all your content is the same in terms color space and gamma.

DVR brings in the clip, does not change the color space or gamma, you do your color grading and if you don't put a LUT at the end of your node tree, DVR will output the same thing, a Rec.2020, N-log formatted image stream. You haven't, by means of a LUT or CST told DVR to output some other format. Now what does the Red LUT expect, that's right Rec.2020 and N-Log...and that's what gets fed into your last node...this will also make your content look correct in your monitor, too. The output of the Red (and Nikon LUTS) is Rec.709. If you're not using a LUT to get a specific look, I actually prefer letting DVR color management handle the Rec.2020/N-Log to Rec.709 internally with a CST that works behind the scenes and is far more accurate in the conversion than any of the LUTS...just MHO.

Key piece of info often overlooked: You MUST know what sort of input stream any given LUT is expecting...could be DaVinci Wide Gamut/DaVinci Intermediate, could be Rec.709/2.4, could be Display P3/HLG, sRGB/2.2 and so on. As it turns out, Nikon LUTS expect Rec.2020, N-Log. I appreciate that the Red LUTS include that info in the actual LUT name. If you get it wrong, you'll know immediately, as many have learned!



Basic node tree...first node for color grading adjustment, though this is often several nodes to be able to adjust and turn on/off different adjustments independently. Last node is where the Red Lut is applied. For the method shown above, you do not use a CST as the whole image stream up to the LUT is all in Rec.2020, N-Log, just as it came in.



The "Under the hood way"...this is exactly what the mode above is doing, but you can see it all out in the open...Color science, we're letting DVR manage color conversions, when needed...we're specifically calling out input color space (Rec.2020 and gamma (N-Log) since that is what you get shooting NRaw in N-Log mode. Timeline color space and gamma are set to Rec.2020 and N-Log.

The timeline settings could be set for DaVinci Wide Gamut and DaVinci Intermediate. I make it a habit to use always use those two as my timeline working space when inputting anything other than Rec.709 color and standard gamma of 2.2-2.6, but in this case, you'd have to put a CST (Color Space Transform) just before the node with the LUT in it to transform from DWG/DI to Rec.2020/N-Log because that's what the LUT expects to see as an input. As an aside, if you define DWG/DI as your timeline color space, you do not need to put a CST as the first node in your node tree because DVR knows to do the conversion from your input color space to the timeline color space automatically when you select "DaVinci YRGB Color Managed as your color science. And you do NOT check the Automatic color management box when working in this mode.

Working luminance is custom and 10000 nits, which gives me the widest range to work with and not have DVR arbitrarily clipping or lowering highlights.

Next, output color space and this is one that bites people. This is what the color management system outputs from all the processing UNLESS the last node in the tree changes it. If one were outputting Rec.709 SDR and not using a LUT, then that would be inserted here.

One other note and you can experiment with this, for this scenario, I prefer to select "DaVinci" for the Output DRT (Display Rendering Transform), though some might prefer "None".

The node structure above would apply to this scenario, as well.



I hope this helps some, I know it's a complex matter, but one everyone should strive to wrap your head around. I'm no expert, but I've learned enough to have presets that I've worked out for most of what I encounter. HDR is even more fun!

Cheers!

 

[patrol_taking_9j]

You can also rename the NEV files to R3D files and process them through Resolve a little bit different to end up with RWG / LOG3G10 - then use actual RED luts. I like this a little bit more personally.

 

[Tom Stites]

You can also rename the NEV files to R3D files and process them through Resolve a little bit different to end up with RWG / LOG3G10 - then use actual RED luts. I like this a little bit more personally.

Funny you should mention that, I've spent a good bit of today looking at the very subtle differences in the way an NEV N-Log file is processed by Resolve. I haven't worked with any of the Red LUT's as of yet...most of what I shoot doesn't lend itself to various cinematic looks, etc., though I will likely get into some of that.

Just uploaded a quick comparison that I shot today, one in HDR and one in Rec.709. I'm going to shoot a variety of content as I get more time.

HDR Version: https://vimeo.com/1124083850/2da230967f?share=copy

SDR Version: https://vimeo.com/1124095219/045a7a5691?share=copy

 

[areallygrumpyoldsod]

You can also rename the NEV files to R3D files and process them through Resolve a little bit different to end up with RWG / LOG3G10 - then use actual RED luts. I like this a little bit more personally.

Yes you can "rename" the file -- but the video was shot on a Z9 in N-RAW N-Log -- this simply looks horrible before one makes quite a few changes - including in RAW titling the Clip RWG / LOG3G10 - then using CSTs that line up with the input clip, the lut parameters and then into DWG/Int and ultimately Rec 709/2.4.

Project Settings





Color Space Transform 1 IN (Pre-LUT) -- output color space and gamma depends on the LUT being used

I am unclear whether to use the following to prepare for the LUT - REDlogFilm or stay in RED Log3G10 Gamma?









I went through all RED LUTs I have and choose "RED_FIlmBias_to_Rec709_BT1886"

Color Space Transform 2 (Post-LUT) - Input Color space and gamma depend on the LUT applied - the output from the LUT is Rec 709 - since there is no BT 1886 Gamma - I went through all options and ended up picking BT 709. Outputting to DWG/D int.



Then one goes through the color grading and power window nodes ending with the final CST

Color Space Transform 3 OUT (Pre-Film look LUT if applied)



My attempts still look lousy -- I am sure it must be my settings

--
areallygrumpyoldsod
Nikon and Hasselblad shooter -- wildlife and and --
https://www.andymillerphoto.co.uk/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ajm057/
I do not respond to PMs or messages via my website

 

[areallygrumpyoldsod]

Here is a short clip of an example output of an N-RAW file renamed to R3D and processed as above in H.465 downsized to 720x576 24fps

Warning -- the Male Lion has blood on his chin.......... he is mid RAW

Ungraded, just minor exposure adjust in RAW on import



After simple "subtle" grading using the LUT







--
areallygrumpyoldsod
Nikon and Hasselblad shooter -- wildlife and and --

Andy Miller Photo UK

Retired Wildlife photographer

www.andymillerphoto.co.uk

Andy Miller

Explore Andy Miller’s 23,387 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

I do not respond to PMs or messages via my website

 

[jlafferty]

I think Tom Stite's post should have you covered. You're having a color space conflict, most obviously you've tagged your input color space as Rec. 709, which it is not - Nlog/Nraw is Rec. 2020.

Your node tree is very complex :O

___________________________________________________________________________

If Tom's post hasn't already set you straight, you can watch these videos, which I've found extremely helpful:

General color management overview, helps to give you solid, generally applicable understanding of how Davinci handles color:

Two videos that are Nikon specific, and these use the approach of handling color via the global Project Settings window:

This one specifically addresses the R3D "hack":

Lastly, some reinforcement of the first video, from another colorist, demonstrating the two key approaches - Project level, or CST:

 

[jlafferty]

More specific Nikon + Red tutorials:

From Nikon directly:

One thing I noted in this Nikon video is they changed the LUT mode from Linear to Tetrahedral or something. I don't have time to look it up (no pun intended), but it's discussed in the video.

Incidentally, DCTL seems like a new tool to use once you play with CSTs to your satisfaction and want to try something new:

--
http://jimlafferty.com
Evocative beats academic.

 

[areallygrumpyoldsod]

I think Tom Stite's post should have you covered. You're having a color space conflict, most obviously you've tagged your input color space as Rec. 709, which it is not - Nlog/Nraw is Rec. 2020.

Might I suggest you read my post again.

Step one Change file name of the footage shot on a Z9 from .NEV to R3D - so that DVRS treats the file as a RED RAW file.

NEXT - select the Input File (CST 1) as a RED Codex (see above This is RED Wide Gamut RGB/Red Log3G10 NOT Rec.2020) - the select the output color space from this FIRST CST to match the LUT I am using which is "RED_FIlmBias_to_Rec709_BT1886" -- the Output Color Gamma REDlogFilm no longer Red Log3G10.

Applying the LUT takes the colour from REDlogFilm to Rec.709 - hence why the input color space and gamma for CST 2 applied after the LUT - transforms the color space to DaVinci Wide Gamut / DaVinci Intermediate, which is my working color space.

From that point forward until the final CST which converts to the final Output Colorspace Rec.709 Gamma 2.4.

Your node tree is very complex

No it is extremely simple AND is precisely what the better guidance videos and instructions say one should do.

 

[jlafferty]

I think Tom Stite's post should have you covered. You're having a color space conflict, most obviously you've tagged your input color space as Rec. 709, which it is not - Nlog/Nraw is Rec. 2020.

Might I suggest you read my post again.

Sorry I just skimmed your post, and since you're having the results you've shown here, it's clearly a color space conflict of some sort, irrespective of whether I've pointed out the right event in your sequence.

Just speaking generally, I'll reiterate: you should look to return to simplicity and strip your workflow down. Your node tree is indeed more complicated than it needs to be for what is a simple process.

No it is extremely simple AND is precisely what the better guidance videos and instructions say one should do.

"Extremely simple" for me would be project settings handling the CST, then two nodes: primary edits, and a second for your LUT. Here's a guy demoing it with three nodes:

Don't feel the need to explain things back to me that aren't working for you. I understand what you’d do that, but I’m not interested in following your process, so much as sharing processes that demonstrably work.

Good luck going forward... hope you get it sorted.

--
http://jimlafferty.com
Evocative beats academic.

 

[areallygrumpyoldsod]

Lets focus on The Question -- after renaming .NEV to .R3D what do you do differently?

Many of us have by now well proven approaches to processing n-raw n-log footage.

BUT I suggest few of us have renaming .NEV to .R3D and Tried to access the RED goodness - be this the RED codex or >>>>?

So the question is What does one do differently with a file recorded as .nev n-log and now relabeled to R3D?

Let's start with the EASY stuff -- In Project Settings Color Management - Do you you change R.2020/Nikon N-log to ..... RED WideGamutRGB/Log3G10 ???? == this seems to be the first step many have tried? Leave RAW settings the same as project for now

Making no other changes this provided me with Z9 footage a fair start.

Then in Color NODES do you first apply a CST to convert to DaVinci Wide Gamut /Davinci Intermediate -- followed by your main grades nodes or whatever you do.

After which you apply another CST just before the end to convert to e.g. Rec.709 / Gamut 2.4. or some other settings for any looks or LUTs you want to apply in a colour space smaller than DaVinci Wide Gamut /Davinci Intermediate - most often R.2020 or R.709 to start.

 

[Tom Stites]

Lets focus on The Question -- after renaming .NEV to .R3D what do you do differently?

Now we can get to the bottom of how many of us differ in our approaches and share what we've learned.

First off, I shoot video with a Z9, Z8, Z50 II, DJI Osmo Action 5 and Mavic 2 Pro...and occasionally an older GoPro Hero 6 black. With the Z9 and Z8, I have typically shot NRaw NLog, though often h.265 HLG...occasionally for something specific, I'll use h.265 10-bit, NLog. With the Z50II, I'll shoot h.265, 10-bit, HLG.

With the drone and action cams, I'll shoot HDR if they support it or a Log tone mode, which all support.

So that give you a sense of what I'm dealing with for source clips and format.

Many of us have by now well proven approaches to processing n-raw n-log footage.

I like to pare processes down to the simplest one that meets my needs...saves time and the less variables that I have to concern myself with, the less likelihood of having to root out mistakes. One of the great things about Resolve is their color management options and I take full advantage of their automation, where I can.

In general, I do not use ANY CSTs or LUTs...Color Science is set to "DaVinci YRGB Color Managed" with Automatic Color Management unchecked and Resolve reads the Metadata of the cameras I use* and automatically converts the incoming clips to my default timeline CS and Gamma which is DWG and DI. This method uses the same mathematical process as manually using a CST in a node and the outcome is the same.

For my typical work that will be rendered to an HDR format, I will specify that format in Output Color Space and Gamma, typically P3-D65 and Rec.2100/ST2084 or same CS and Rec.2100/HLG. There are some reasons that I might use one or the other, but I won't go into that here. With that, I'm good to go and properly exposed content requires very minimal grading to achieve images that represent the "reality" that I'm usually trying to capture.

Now, what about SDR content...I let YT or Vimeo worry about that, they automatically create SDR content from HDR uploads to feed to those not viewing on an HDR device. In general, if I upload 4K, h.265 10-bit content at a 40Mbs or higher, data rate, it will look more than adequate for my needs and the variety of devices that it might be viewed on.

If, for whatever reason I want the best quality SDR output I can get, I'll create a timeline copy and change the output color space settings to those appropriate for my SDR need and render accordingly.

*see below...

BUT I suggest few of us have renaming .NEV to .R3D and Tried to access the RED goodness - be this the RED codex or >>>>?

Yes, it's been an adventure...but much has been learned.

So the question is What does one do differently with a file recorded as .nev n-log and now relabeled to R3D?

We have options that provide differing results. First off, since Resolve Color Management does trigger some different processing from the RAW N-Log file solely by the R3D file extension, I do see a different result in my clean feed from my DeckLink 4K mini to my LG OLED monitor, as well as to the GUI display or my ASUS ProArt secondary GUI display. What I see is the often talked about improvement made by the Red processing removing the blue channel highlight clipping that Resolve seems to introduce in NRaw N-Log content. This can be seen in the HDR and SDR clips I linked to...it's subtle on that content, but it's there.

Let's start with the EASY stuff -- In Project Settings Color Management - Do you you change R.2020/Nikon N-log to ..... RED WideGamutRGB/Log3G10 ???? == this seems to be the first step many have tried? Leave RAW settings the same as project for now

As stated above, what I do is essentially leave the input processing decision to Resolve to read based on metadata or file extension and leave the default input settings at BT.2020 and N-Log. Some are not aware that when working in this mode, the only time the settings have effect is if a source clip format cannot be identified by Resolve, then it will revert to those settings.

I have tried changing the input settings to the ones you listed and those have no effect, which is to be expected, since the underlying file is the same and Resolve is reading it's Metadata and it's the same as the N-Log file. A Z9 or Z8 cannot write the complete Metadata that Resolve requires to properly process the renamed files. What you can do is go into the Camera Raw settings and make some adjustments there, but it's still not right because you still don't have the proper metadata and that's likely why some of the controls have no effect on the resultant image when working in the Camera Raw section. One can likely do the same thing with a CST in a non-color managed mode, but that may very well open the can of worms many have been seeing.

Can we achieve some goodness, yes, the Blue channel clipping can be suppressed, but beyond that, I see limited value unless Nikon choose to update Z9 and Z8 firmware to be able to write a proper RedRaw NE file like they've done for the Zr.

I'll be doing some further testing, but for now, I have a reliable way(s) to take advantage of the improvement in the Blue channel and can match other Nikon content without issue.

Making no other changes this provided me with Z9 footage a fair start.

Then in Color NODES do you first apply a CST to convert to DaVinci Wide Gamut /Davinci Intermediate -- followed by your main grades nodes or whatever you do.

After which you apply another CST just before the end to convert to e.g. Rec.709 / Gamut 2.4. or some other settings for any looks or LUTs you want to apply in a colour space smaller than DaVinci Wide Gamut /Davinci Intermediate - most often R.2020 or R.709 to start.

As for being able to use any of the Nikon/Red LUTs that are expecting Rec.2020/N-Log input, to give you a Rec.709 output, I set my timeline output format to Rec.2020/N-Log and then put a corrector node on the Timeline output (select Timeline mode instead of Clip mode in the dropdown at the upper right area in the Color Page) that takes the Timeline output and converts it to Rec.709 along with applying the LUT data. That seems to work very well and doesn't require messing with CSTs. As I said at the start, while I know how and when to use CST's, if I can keep things simple and achieve the same result, I do so.

Cheers!

 

[areallygrumpyoldsod]

Thanks for the reply.

One "thought" if one allows DVRS to use the underlying Camera Metadata then surely DVRS will simply treat the footage as N-Log N-RAW even if it has the file extn R3D.

My "experimentation" was to disable this feature and to select various input color spaces and gammas to see if there was a difference.

I suggest folk watch the ProAV vid Nikon ZR - Overview / Q&A go to 41.36 for the specific quote from the Nikon.Cinema Rep.

AutoGen Transcript - 41:36 "And also gives me an opportunity to explain something that I've seen online quite a lot is a lot of people are mentioning that you can rename the Nev RAW file to R3D and you can open it as a RED file. Um, that is true and that is because of that N raw integration into into Red Cine X. However, you don't get a true R3D file with the same color science.

That is still different and that is still unique to the ZR. If only the engineers jobs were that easy, right?

Exactly. So, by just changing NEV to R3D, all that does is make DaVinci Resolve, for example, see it as an R3D file. It doesn't change the actual file. The actual file is still a Nikon enroll file. and you will still get less dynamic range from that than you would get from the true R3D um inside the ZR. So, I just wanted to clarify that because that's something that I've seen kind of start to bubble up online uh in in recent weeks since the ZR launch. So, I just thought this would give me a good opportunity to to explain that to to people out there."

In general, I do not use ANY CSTs or LUTs...Color Science is set to "DaVinci YRGB Color Managed" with Automatic Color Management unchecked and Resolve reads the Metadata of the cameras I use* and automatically converts the incoming clips to my default timeline CS and Gamma which is DWG and DI. This method uses the same mathematical process as manually using a CST in a node and the outcome is the same.

Otherwise like you I try to keep it simple. The only "reason" for using a more complex node structure was to be able to expose and show more clearly the choices I was making.

We have options that provide differing results. First off, since Resolve Color Management does trigger some different processing from the RAW N-Log file solely by the R3D file extension, I do see a different result in my clean feed .... What I see is the often talked about improvement made by the Red processing removing the blue channel highlight clipping that Resolve seems to introduce in NRaw N-Log content. This can be seen in the HDR and SDR clips I linked to...it's subtle on that content, but it's there.

Let's start with the EASY stuff -- In Project Settings Color Management - Do you you change R.2020/Nikon N-log to ..... RED WideGamutRGB/Log3G10 ???? == this seems to be the first step many have tried? Leave RAW settings the same as project for now

As stated above, what I do is essentially leave the input processing decision to Resolve to read based on metadata or file extension and leave the default input settings at BT.2020 and N-Log.

AND this is where I tried to do things differently to see what the outcome would be.

I have tried changing the input settings to the ones you listed and those have no effect, which is to be expected, since the underlying file is the same and Resolve is reading it's Metadata and it's the same as the N-Log file.
Can we achieve some goodness, yes, the Blue channel clipping can be suppressed, but beyond that, I see limited value unless Nikon choose to update Z9 and Z8 firmware to be able to write a proper RedRaw NE file like they've done for the Zr.

Cheers!

 

[Horshack]

Thanks for the reply.

One "thought" if one allows DVRS to use the underlying Camera Metadata then surely DVRS will simply treat the footage as N-Log N-RAW even if it has the file extn R3D.

My "experimentation" was to disable this feature and to select various input color spaces and gammas to see if there was a difference.

I suggest folk watch the ProAV vid Nikon ZR - Overview / Q&A go to 41.36 for the specific quote from the Nikon.Cinema Rep.

AutoGen Transcript - 41:36 "And also gives me an opportunity to explain something that I've seen online quite a lot is a lot of people are mentioning that you can rename the Nev RAW file to R3D and you can open it as a RED file. Um, that is true and that is because of that N raw integration into into Red Cine X. However, you don't get a true R3D file with the same color science.

That is still different and that is still unique to the ZR. If only the engineers jobs were that easy, right?

Exactly. So, by just changing NEV to R3D, all that does is make DaVinci Resolve, for example, see it as an R3D file. It doesn't change the actual file. The actual file is still a Nikon enroll file. and you will still get less dynamic range from that than you would get from the true R3D um inside the ZR. So, I just wanted to clarify that because that's something that I've seen kind of start to bubble up online uh in in recent weeks since the ZR launch. So, I just thought this would give me a good opportunity to to explain that to to people out there."

In general, I do not use ANY CSTs or LUTs...Color Science is set to "DaVinci YRGB Color Managed" with Automatic Color Management unchecked and Resolve reads the Metadata of the cameras I use* and automatically converts the incoming clips to my default timeline CS and Gamma which is DWG and DI. This method uses the same mathematical process as manually using a CST in a node and the outcome is the same.

Otherwise like you I try to keep it simple. The only "reason" for using a more complex node structure was to be able to expose and show more clearly the choices I was making.

We have options that provide differing results. First off, since Resolve Color Management does trigger some different processing from the RAW N-Log file solely by the R3D file extension, I do see a different result in my clean feed .... What I see is the often talked about improvement made by the Red processing removing the blue channel highlight clipping that Resolve seems to introduce in NRaw N-Log content. This can be seen in the HDR and SDR clips I linked to...it's subtle on that content, but it's there.

Let's start with the EASY stuff -- In Project Settings Color Management - Do you you change R.2020/Nikon N-log to ..... RED WideGamutRGB/Log3G10 ???? == this seems to be the first step many have tried? Leave RAW settings the same as project for now

As stated above, what I do is essentially leave the input processing decision to Resolve to read based on metadata or file extension and leave the default input settings at BT.2020 and N-Log.

AND this is where I tried to do things differently to see what the outcome would be.

I have tried changing the input settings to the ones you listed and those have no effect, which is to be expected, since the underlying file is the same and Resolve is reading it's Metadata and it's the same as the N-Log file.
Can we achieve some goodness, yes, the Blue channel clipping can be suppressed, but beyond that, I see limited value unless Nikon choose to update Z9 and Z8 firmware to be able to write a proper RedRaw NE file like they've done for the Zr.

Cheers!

Same sensor, same raw dynamic range. You only have to change the ISO strategy to match it. It'll only be different if they switched to a 14-bit readout for video.

 

[areallygrumpyoldsod]

Same sensor, same raw dynamic range. You only have to change the ISO strategy to match it. It'll only be different if they switched to a 14-bit readout for video.

Nikon rep answered this question in the ProAV vid at 1:05:30 -- DR is the same as Z6iii when shooting in Nikon mode, but NR is higher only when using R3D-NE -- RED WideGamutRGB/Log3G10 codex. In all cases RED-NE is 12-bit not 16-bit.

 

[Horshack]

Same sensor, same raw dynamic range. You only have to change the ISO strategy to match it. It'll only be different if they switched to a 14-bit readout for video.

Nikon rep answered this question in the ProAV vid at 1:05:30 -- DR is the same as Z6iii when shooting in Nikon mode, but NR is higher only when using R3D-NE -- RED WideGamutRGB/Log3G10 codex. In all cases RED-NE is 12-bit not 16-bit.

 

[Tom Stites]

We're on the same page and like a few others here, like to know what's going on "under the hood", or "bonnet", on your side of the pond. I appreciate you posting your original comments and getting a conversation going.

Wrapping one's head around the inner workings of Resolve Color Management once one ventures into shooting in Raw, Log and HDR or mixing in content from other camera brands or sources like drones, action cams, phones, etc. That's probably the most challenging aspect of Resolve for newcomers to video.

I sincerely hope Nikon can add RedRaw as a native option on our Z9's, Z8's and Z6iii's...and also that BMD will fix their N-Raw debayering with the Blue Channel.

Cheers!

 

[areallygrumpyoldsod]

Hi

One can download Gerald Undone's LUTs for Nikon HERE - and on first application these look great.

There are designed to work with Rec 2020 / N-Log and Output footage in REC.709.

Currently there are no LUTs for the Z8 or Z9 when seeking to grade Rec.2020 N-Log footage from the Z8 or Z9 Gerald recommends use of the LUTs in the General Purpose Folder (which is what I have used). This folder contains 4 Luts - normal contrast and Low Contrast:

• N-Log Undone 65.cube -- Accurate, fully saturated color with a custom curve to give a finished look with one step. Use in post-production
• N-Log Undone LC 65.cube -- Accurate neutral color with no changes to curve. Better for high contrast scenes. LC = Low Contrast. Use in post and add contrast to taste.
• N-Log Undone 33 (Monitoring).cube -- Same as above, but made compatible for loading into a camera or monitor.
• N-Log Undone LC 33 (Monitoring.cube -- Same as above, but made compatible for loading into a camera or monitor.

I do not fully understand the difference between the 33 (Monitoring) LUT and the 65 - Gerald clearly recommends use of the 65 or 65LC LUT when color grading -- they certainly do a good job.

If you buy the LUTs you will receive Luts for each of the cameras listed on his site and suitable for the N.Log codex that can be recorded on the camera. Typically H.265 (Z5ii, Z6ii and Zf) & ProRes 422 and N-RAW (Z6iii). Gerald added LUTs for R3D NE for the Zr (as noted elsewhere these should just be applied to footage shot with other cameras if you wish to maintain color fidelity).

When to apply the LUT in your Color tab in DVRS:

I also had an email exchange with him about where to apply the LUT if one (like me) prefers to perform grading in DVR Studio (20.2) and prefer to work in DaVinci Wide Gamut/DaVinci Intermediate (DWG) before ultimately outputting to Rec.709 Gamma 2.4.

The two workflows Gerald recommends would be like this:

1. (No DWG) Exposure Node > White Balance Node > Undone LUT > Creative Stuff (in Rec.709)

2. (yes DWG) CST to DWG from Rec 2020 / N-Log > Whatever you're going to do > CST back to N-Log/Rec 2020 > Undone LUT > Other Creative Stuff (in Rec.709)

Here is what Gerald's Site says about the LUTs

This pack contains technical LUTs for transforming Nikon N-Log footage to Rec. 709 with enhanced color accuracy.

What’s Included:

In this pack, you’ll find separate folders for different cameras. These each have specific tweaks to achieve the best color accuracy for their respective sensors. There's also a folder called General Purpose, which works well on cameras I haven't yet customized. But because each sensor does have minor color variations, I’ll continue to create camera-specific LUTs and will send those out to customers of this pack as a free upgrade when they’re complete. In the meantime, for any other Nikon camera, simply use the General Purpose N-Log LUTs, which will still provide accurate, neutral color.

Contains:

• General Purpose
• Z6 III
• Z6 II
• Z5 II
• Zf
• ZR

Variations:

I’ve provided LUTs for N-Log and RED Log3G10 for the ZR. And for the cameras that can shoot N-RAW, I’ve included separate folders for H.265 and RAW variants. They’re very similar, but did require small tweaks to match.

File Names Explained:

- N-Log Undone LUT: Accurate, fully saturated color with a custom curve to give a finished look with one step. Use in post-production.
- N-Log Undone LUT (33-Monitoring): Same as above, but made compatible for loading into a camera or monitor.
- N-Log Undone LUT LC: Accurate neutral color with no changes to curve. Better for high contrast scenes. LC = Low Contrast. Use in post and add contrast to taste.
- N-Log Undone LUT LC (33-Monitoring): Same as above, but made compatible for loading into a camera or monitor.

Exposure & Tips:

Expose neutrally. These LUTs are built on correct exposure principles from Nikon’s whitepapers, which state that 18% gray should be exposed to 35% (10-bit code value of 372) for N-Log. For theZRusing RED’s Log3G10, it’s 33% (341 code value). This also matches the in-camera view assist and exposure tools, so you can rely on them as well.

If you're applying the LUT to over or underexposed footage, it's recommended that you adjust the exposure in an earlier step in your color workflow before applying the LUT. In DaVinci Resolve for instance, this would mean putting an exposure adjustment node before the LUT node.

It's good practice to place this LUT near the end of your color pipeline. This will make adjustments to exposure, white balance, saturation, and other parameters more consistent and allow you to recover more information when compared to attempting to adjust those things after the LUT is applied.