Another RX10 Mark 4 focus issue

[hwvlover]

Yesterday a nuthatch or two visited my garden feeders. I was at a distance of about ten feet from the birds.

I was using a medium speed burst, I think I was in Flexible Spot Small. (I chopped and changed the focus area a bit, also used Expand Flexible Spot). Steady Shot was on.

I shoot raw +jpeg so these are the SOOC fine jpegs.
The first image, my number DSC00303 was fine. I have also looked at the apparent point of focus.





The very next image in the burst sequence DSC00304 is another matter.





Best (or worst) looked at original size. The focus point has remained the same, the pics are probably 1/10th of a second apart and yet, in that time, the focus has gone from the bird's head.
Fortunately the raw from the first image scrubs up nicely in processing but something odd is going on. Perhaps my camera is starting to show its age and use.
Regards,
David
***************************************
Growing old is inevitable; growing up, however, is optional.
And I have opted out.

 

[edform]

Yesterday a nuthatch or two visited my garden feeders. I was at a distance of about ten feet from the birds.

I was using a medium speed burst, I think I was in Flexible Spot Small. (I chopped and changed the focus area a bit, also used Expand Flexible Spot). Steady Shot was on.

I shoot raw +jpeg so these are the SOOC fine jpegs.
The first image, my number DSC00303 was fine. I have also looked at the apparent point of focus.





The very next image in the burst sequence DSC00304 is another matter.





Best (or worst) looked at original size. The focus point has remained the same, the pics are probably 1/10th of a second apart and yet, in that time, the focus has gone from the bird's head.
Fortunately the raw from the first image scrubs up nicely in processing but something odd is going on. Perhaps my camera is starting to show its age and use.
Regards,
David
***************************************
Growing old is inevitable; growing up, however, is optional.
And I have opted out.

swapping through the images in gallery view, it's obvious that the little guy moved between shots. Is the problem not simply that the focus mode is unsuitable and the camera is choosing a different focal point before each shot - a victim of its own focussing speed. Might a different focus choice do better?

--
Ed Form

 

[Rodger1943]

This is a problem I experience in every burst of shots. Some are good and some aren't. I haven't worked out a solution as yet, but I leaning towards giving MF a try, or maybe DMF.

 

[Horacecoker]

Yesterday a nuthatch or two visited my garden feeders. I was at a distance of about ten feet from the birds.

I was using a medium speed burst, I think I was in Flexible Spot Small. (I chopped and changed the focus area a bit, also used Expand Flexible Spot). Steady Shot was on.

I shoot raw +jpeg so these are the SOOC fine jpegs.
The first image, my number DSC00303 was fine. I have also looked at the apparent point of focus.





The very next image in the burst sequence DSC00304 is another matter.





Best (or worst) looked at original size. The focus point has remained the same, the pics are probably 1/10th of a second apart and yet, in that time, the focus has gone from the bird's head.
Fortunately the raw from the first image scrubs up nicely in processing but something odd is going on. Perhaps my camera is starting to show its age and use.
Regards,
David
***************************************
Growing old is inevitable; growing up, however, is optional.
And I have opted out.

swapping through the images in gallery view, it's obvious that the little guy moved between shots. Is the problem not simply that the focus mode is unsuitable and the camera is choosing a different focal point before each shot - a victim of its own focussing speed. Might a different focus choice do better?

The bird hasn't moved a single muscle (or feather) imho. What I'm seeing is a slight camera movement.

Edit

Or the bird has moved with the feeder because it's swaying. The curious thing is the feeder looks sharp in both shots. So forget my comment above. Basically, I haven't a clue what's happening!

 

[Horacecoker]

Yesterday a nuthatch or two visited my garden feeders. I was at a distance of about ten feet from the birds.

I was using a medium speed burst, I think I was in Flexible Spot Small. (I chopped and changed the focus area a bit, also used Expand Flexible Spot). Steady Shot was on.

I shoot raw +jpeg so these are the SOOC fine jpegs.
The first image, my number DSC00303 was fine. I have also looked at the apparent point of focus.





The very next image in the burst sequence DSC00304 is another matter.





Best (or worst) looked at original size. The focus point has remained the same, the pics are probably 1/10th of a second apart and yet, in that time, the focus has gone from the bird's head.
Fortunately the raw from the first image scrubs up nicely in processing but something odd is going on. Perhaps my camera is starting to show its age and use.
Regards,
David
***************************************
Growing old is inevitable; growing up, however, is optional.
And I have opted out.

I get this all the time David. There is nothing wrong with your camera. I don't even bother my head about analysing the reasons why anymore I simply delete the out-of-focus shots.

I was taking shots of hovering dragonflies last month and was staggered by the number of shots in a burst that weren't in focus! Many times complete bursts were all out-of-focus. The dragonflies aren't moving at all, they were simply suspended in space and might as well have been nailed to a perch. The only thing that moved was their wings.

Thankfully I did get a lot in focus too so the hit rate it doesn't really matter when it all comes right. (I've had to crop them it considerably.)

 

[hwvlover]

Yesterday a nuthatch or two visited my garden feeders. I was at a distance of about ten feet from the birds.

I was using a medium speed burst, I think I was in Flexible Spot Small. (I chopped and changed the focus area a bit, also used Expand Flexible Spot). Steady Shot was on.

I shoot raw +jpeg so these are the SOOC fine jpegs.
The first image, my number DSC00303 was fine. I have also looked at the apparent point of focus.





The very next image in the burst sequence DSC00304 is another matter.





Best (or worst) looked at original size. The focus point has remained the same, the pics are probably 1/10th of a second apart and yet, in that time, the focus has gone from the bird's head.
Fortunately the raw from the first image scrubs up nicely in processing but something odd is going on. Perhaps my camera is starting to show its age and use.
Regards,
David
***************************************
Growing old is inevitable; growing up, however, is optional.
And I have opted out.

I get this all the time David. There is nothing wrong with your camera. I don't even bother my head about analysing the reasons why anymore I simply delete the out-of-focus shots.

I was taking shots of hovering dragonflies last month and was staggered by the number of shots in a burst that weren't in focus! Many times complete bursts were all out-of-focus. The dragonflies aren't moving at all, they were simply suspended in space and might as well have been nailed to a perch. The only thing that moved was their wings.

Thankfully I did get a lot in focus too so the hit rate it doesn't really matter when it all comes right. (I've had to crop them it considerably.)

Thanks David. Fabulous shots those, well done you.

This focus oddity happens often enough for there to be an issue of some sort but, like you, as long as I get a potential keeper or two in the respective burst, I can live with it. My expectation of 100% precise focus in every shot went a long time ago however, as your photographs show, when the camera works well it works very well.

Perhaps we could have the A9 tracking system as a firmware update?

Regards,
David
***************************************
Growing old is inevitable; growing up, however, is optional.
And I have opted out.

 

[edform]

Yesterday a nuthatch or two visited my garden feeders. I was at a distance of about ten feet from the birds.

I was using a medium speed burst, I think I was in Flexible Spot Small. (I chopped and changed the focus area a bit, also used Expand Flexible Spot). Steady Shot was on.

I shoot raw +jpeg so these are the SOOC fine jpegs.
The first image, my number DSC00303 was fine. I have also looked at the apparent point of focus.





The very next image in the burst sequence DSC00304 is another matter.





Best (or worst) looked at original size. The focus point has remained the same, the pics are probably 1/10th of a second apart and yet, in that time, the focus has gone from the bird's head.
Fortunately the raw from the first image scrubs up nicely in processing but something odd is going on. Perhaps my camera is starting to show its age and use.
Regards,
David
***************************************
Growing old is inevitable; growing up, however, is optional.
And I have opted out.

swapping through the images in gallery view, it's obvious that the little guy moved between shots. Is the problem not simply that the focus mode is unsuitable and the camera is choosing a different focal point before each shot - a victim of its own focussing speed. Might a different focus choice do better?

The bird hasn't moved a single muscle (or feather) imho. What I'm seeing is a slight camera movement.

You're right, it is camera movement, not bird movement. Stepping through the images, there is a tiny movement between images 1 & 2 but a distinctly bigger movement tween 2 & 3.

When I had my RX10-IV I ran a series of tests of the burst focusing and subject tracking in which I fixed the camera on a tripod at the side of a main road and fired off dozens of long bursts at both high and low burst rates. I had the camera zeroed onto a spot at number plate level just after a road sign and the nose to tail lorries and cars and vans were all doing just on, or just over, 60mph, travelling around 80 feet during each burst. The camera was angled at 2 or 3 degrees to the carriageway.

Out of literally hundreds of images, all but a handful were razor sharp. The big differences between my test and your sequence is that my camera was rock steady and the targets were pretty well defined. Your little bird is a tiny forest of potential focus targets.

--
Ed Form

 

[edform]

Perhaps we could have the A9 tracking system as a firmware update?

The RX10-IV has the A9 focusing system.

 

[Ab S]

Perhaps we could have the A9 tracking system as a firmware update?

The RX10-IV has the A9 focusing system.

No, i.m.h.o. it has not; the RX10iv does not have the real time subject AF (like the RX100vii and the A9ii). However, even then I expect not all frames in a burst have a 100% in focus hit..

 

[edform]

Perhaps we could have the A9 tracking system as a firmware update?

The RX10-IV has the A9 focusing system.

No, i.m.h.o. it has not; the RX10iv does not have the real time subject AF (like the RX100vii and the A9ii). However, even then I expect not all frames in a burst have a 100% in focus hit..

I repeat, the RX10-IV has the A9 focusing system. The A9-II is a different matter.

 

[Eggiez]

Perhaps we could have the A9 tracking system as a firmware update?

The RX10-IV has the A9 focusing system.

No, i.m.h.o. it has not; the RX10iv does not have the real time subject AF (like the RX100vii and the A9ii). However, even then I expect not all frames in a burst have a 100% in focus hit..

I repeat, the RX10-IV has the A9 focusing system. The A9-II is a different matter.

Ab S is correct, it may have the same focusing system, but it does not have the same real time subject tracking the A9 has. The A9 will plant a square on your subject and follow that point around whether you or the subject moves. The RX10iv does not do that.

 

[Eggiez]

David, I get the same when I'm photographing the robin in our garden. Occassionally the focus will trip out very slightly for an image and then lock focus again. I have always put it down to the focus being too clever and thinking that it knows better than me. I tend to shoot in burst mode, so I just delete the shot thats out of focus.

 

[Rachael P]

Perhaps we could have the A9 tracking system as a firmware update?

The RX10-IV has the A9 focusing system.

No, i.m.h.o. it has not; the RX10iv does not have the real time subject AF (like the RX100vii and the A9ii). However, even then I expect not all frames in a burst have a 100% in focus hit..

I repeat, the RX10-IV has the A9 focusing system. The A9-II is a different matter.

Ab S is correct, it may have the same focusing system, but it does not have the same real time subject tracking the A9 has. The A9 will plant a square on your subject and follow that point around whether you or the subject moves. The RX10iv does not do that.

I was about to make the same point. And despite using the same symbols in the same place in the menu, the A9 and A7Riv call it "Tracking" rather than "Lock on". This was upgraded to the A7Riv-like implementation in the last FW update, but it seems to me that the Rx10's lock on "tracking" is only rarely effective. I use it sometimes as a quick and easy way to offset the focus from the centre of the image, but not for, e.g., wildlife. Its FF brothers presumably have more spare processing power to back it up.

Interestingly, the A9 and A7Riv only have Expand Flexible Spot, and not the Small/Medium/Large options the Rx10iv also has. I wonder if they were a design dead-end?

 

[Eggiez]

Perhaps we could have the A9 tracking system as a firmware update?

The RX10-IV has the A9 focusing system.

No, i.m.h.o. it has not; the RX10iv does not have the real time subject AF (like the RX100vii and the A9ii). However, even then I expect not all frames in a burst have a 100% in focus hit..

I repeat, the RX10-IV has the A9 focusing system. The A9-II is a different matter.

Ab S is correct, it may have the same focusing system, but it does not have the same real time subject tracking the A9 has. The A9 will plant a square on your subject and follow that point around whether you or the subject moves. The RX10iv does not do that.

I was about to make the same point. And despite using the same symbols in the same place in the menu, the A9 and A7Riv call it "Tracking" rather than "Lock on". This was upgraded to the A7Riv-like implementation in the last FW update, but it seems to me that the Rx10's lock on "tracking" is only rarely effective. I use it sometimes as a quick and easy way to offset the focus from the centre of the image, but not for, e.g., wildlife. Its FF brothers presumably have more spare processing power to back it up.

Interestingly, the A9 and A7Riv only have Expand Flexible Spot, and not the Small/Medium/Large options the Rx10iv also has. I wonder if they were a design dead-end?

Mine has Tracking small, medium and large. You sure you haven't switched them off?

 

[Rachael P]

Perhaps we could have the A9 tracking system as a firmware update?

The RX10-IV has the A9 focusing system.

No, i.m.h.o. it has not; the RX10iv does not have the real time subject AF (like the RX100vii and the A9ii). However, even then I expect not all frames in a burst have a 100% in focus hit..

I repeat, the RX10-IV has the A9 focusing system. The A9-II is a different matter.

Ab S is correct, it may have the same focusing system, but it does not have the same real time subject tracking the A9 has. The A9 will plant a square on your subject and follow that point around whether you or the subject moves. The RX10iv does not do that.

I was about to make the same point. And despite using the same symbols in the same place in the menu, the A9 and A7Riv call it "Tracking" rather than "Lock on". This was upgraded to the A7Riv-like implementation in the last FW update, but it seems to me that the Rx10's lock on "tracking" is only rarely effective. I use it sometimes as a quick and easy way to offset the focus from the centre of the image, but not for, e.g., wildlife. Its FF brothers presumably have more spare processing power to back it up.

Interestingly, the A9 and A7Riv only have Expand Flexible Spot, and not the Small/Medium/Large options the Rx10iv also has. I wonder if they were a design dead-end?

Mine has Tracking small, medium and large. You sure you haven't switched them off?

Gulp! Did I know I could do that? Why might I have done it? Doh!
Ok, there goes one theory...

 

[edform]

Perhaps we could have the A9 tracking system as a firmware update?

The RX10-IV has the A9 focusing system.

No, i.m.h.o. it has not; the RX10iv does not have the real time subject AF (like the RX100vii and the A9ii). However, even then I expect not all frames in a burst have a 100% in focus hit..

I repeat, the RX10-IV has the A9 focusing system. The A9-II is a different matter.

Ab S is correct, it may have the same focusing system, but it does not have the same real time subject tracking the A9 has. The A9 will plant a square on your subject and follow that point around whether you or the subject moves. The RX10iv does not do that.

Your claim is simply not true, it does have full follow focus. Check this post...

All the marketing and press doesn't hide its focusing flaws

Ill keep it short here, the full review is on my site now. Save your money and get the RX10 III. It is a stellar camera for the money. The IV is not the action camera Sony or the Press Reviews out there have made it out to be, and that is too bad. Therefore it's not worth the extra money in my...

www.dpreview.com

...and look at the GIFs full size so that they animate. In each case the camera locks onto the number plate of the vehicle and then follows it across the frame, keeping it in sharp focus almost till it disappears out of the left hand side of the frame. This applies even in cases where there is another vehicle close to the back of the one that has focus locked on; at no time does the focus lose lock and jump to the following vehicle, even though the camera is fixed in space and pointing at a point about one sixth of the way in from the right hand edge of the frame.

The demo gifs are small and low resolution but I took many hundreds of images that day, and again the next day, in bursts of up to 50 frames at a time and the full size images are crystal clear. The sharp focus hit rate was way better than 95%

In addition, Sony stated plainly in the advertising material for the RX10-IV that it had the focusing system from the A9.

 

[Jerry045]

Slightly off topic David, but what software program are you using to display the focus point in your two examples above?

 

[Rachael P]

Perhaps we could have the A9 tracking system as a firmware update?

The RX10-IV has the A9 focusing system.

No, i.m.h.o. it has not; the RX10iv does not have the real time subject AF (like the RX100vii and the A9ii). However, even then I expect not all frames in a burst have a 100% in focus hit..

I repeat, the RX10-IV has the A9 focusing system. The A9-II is a different matter.

Ab S is correct, it may have the same focusing system, but it does not have the same real time subject tracking the A9 has. The A9 will plant a square on your subject and follow that point around whether you or the subject moves. The RX10iv does not do that.

Your claim is simply not true, it does have full follow focus. Check this post...

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61631975

...and look at the GIFs full size so that they animate. In each case the camera locks onto the number plate of the vehicle and then follows it across the frame, keeping it in sharp focus almost till it disappears out of the left hand side of the frame. This applies even in cases where there is another vehicle close to the back of the one that has focus locked on; at no time does the focus lose lock and jump to the following vehicle, even though the camera is fixed in space and pointing at a point about one sixth of the way in from the right hand edge of the frame.

The demo gifs are small and low resolution but I took many hundreds of images that day, and again the next day, in bursts of up to 50 frames at a time and the full size images are crystal clear. The sharp focus hit rate was way better than 95%

In addition, Sony stated plainly in the advertising material for the RX10-IV that it had the focusing system from the A9.

Ed, there is something odd here. Your demo is very impressive, but I am sitting with all three cameras beside me, and trying the same thing on each, and they don't feel the same to me.

The Rx10iv certainly has the A9 focussing system in that it has the 693 PD sensors, and remarkably fast focussing. But the original user interface was quite different -- the lock-on system as I recall it was essentially unusable. That was updated when the A7Riv came out with real-time tracking - which integrates lock-on, face detect and eye-detect - and both the A9 and Rx10iv got FW updates which implemented large parts of that. But even the A9 never got the full RT Tracking functionality of the A7Riv, and I think the Rx10iv got less again (because of processor limitaitons, I assumed).

As noted previously, the Rx10iv uses different notation (Lock-on vs Tracking) and when you half-press the shutter, it displays an indeterminate number of PD points -- the FF cameras display a single solid square. The tracking on the FF cameras is rock solid, but as I sit here, rather approximate on the Rx10iv. And on the FF camera it even remembers the object if it leaves the frame for a moment, while on the Rx10iv, that is the end of tracking.

All I am doing is focussing on an object in my living room, and moving the camera gently to move the object round in the frame.

Unless there has been another FW update that I missed?

I'm willing to try it in earnest in a similar test to yours, but not 'til it's light

 

[Eggiez]

Perhaps we could have the A9 tracking system as a firmware update?

The RX10-IV has the A9 focusing system.

No, i.m.h.o. it has not; the RX10iv does not have the real time subject AF (like the RX100vii and the A9ii). However, even then I expect not all frames in a burst have a 100% in focus hit..

I repeat, the RX10-IV has the A9 focusing system. The A9-II is a different matter.

Ab S is correct, it may have the same focusing system, but it does not have the same real time subject tracking the A9 has. The A9 will plant a square on your subject and follow that point around whether you or the subject moves. The RX10iv does not do that.

Your claim is simply not true, it does have full follow focus. Check this post...

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61631975

...and look at the GIFs full size so that they animate. In each case the camera locks onto the number plate of the vehicle and then follows it across the frame, keeping it in sharp focus almost till it disappears out of the left hand side of the frame. This applies even in cases where there is another vehicle close to the back of the one that has focus locked on; at no time does the focus lose lock and jump to the following vehicle, even though the camera is fixed in space and pointing at a point about one sixth of the way in from the right hand edge of the frame.

The demo gifs are small and low resolution but I took many hundreds of images that day, and again the next day, in bursts of up to 50 frames at a time and the full size images are crystal clear. The sharp focus hit rate was way better than 95%

In addition, Sony stated plainly in the advertising material for the RX10-IV that it had the focusing system from the A9.

My claim is untrue, but I have both cameras....? mmm....

Anyway its a completely different thing Ed. As I said they both have the same focusing system. BUT the A9 has a live real time subject tracking system which the RX10iv does not have. The live tracking puts a square on the subject and will follow the object around. It tracks it live.

 

[hwvlover]

Slightly off topic David, but what software program are you using to display the focus point in your two examples above?

This one Jerry.

Regards,
David
***************************************
Growing old is inevitable; growing up, however, is optional.
And I have opted out.