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5D3 Photographic Dynamic Range etc.

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bclaff

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This is my first post in any dpreview Canon forum.

I think the information will be of interest to certain people but certainly not to everyone.
I consider my testing methodology to be objective.
So please don't "shoot the messenger" if you don't like the results.

That said, I have far more experience testing Nikon cameras than Canon so errors with the Canon measurements are slightly more likely than for Nikon.

The testing methodologies are pretty standard and are outlined at my site, primarily in the Sensor Analysis Primer.( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/GeneralTopics/Sensors_&_Raw/Sensor_Analysis_Primer/Sensor_Analysis_Primer.htm )

If you're not familiar with Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) it is analogous to DxOMark Landscape DR but with different normalization criteria.

I have just processed the Imaging Resource CR2 files for the EOS 5D Mark III.
Most people find my Photographic Dynamic Range Chart the best overview:
( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/PDR.htm )
A good cross section for comparing cameras is this bar chart:
( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/PDR_65.htm )
More technical information would include read noise:
( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/RN_ADU.htm )
And a restatement of PDR that shows how shadow DR improves with ISO:
( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/PDR_Shadow.htm )

Click on the model name in the chart legend to select and deselect the cameras to display.

You can see that the 5D Mark III compares favorably with the top Nikon models in PDR.

I will be adding 5D Mark II data that I already have shortly. The Mark III is similar to the Mark II at low ISO and shows slight improvement at high ISO.

Finally, if you would like to contribute Canon data for analysis then please contact me by email.

Regards
--
Bill (visit me at http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/ )
 
your results don't match with real world ability to shoot scenes with high DR, I think DxO charts make a lot more sense
bclaff said:
This is my first post in any dpreview Canon forum.

I think the information will be of interest to certain people but certainly not to everyone.
I consider my testing methodology to be objective.
So please don't "shoot the messenger" if you don't like the results.

That said, I have far more experience testing Nikon cameras than Canon so errors with the Canon measurements are slightly more likely than for Nikon.

The testing methodologies are pretty standard and are outlined at my site, primarily in the Sensor Analysis Primer.( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/GeneralTopics/Sensors_&_Raw/Sensor_Analysis_Primer/Sensor_Analysis_Primer.htm )

If you're not familiar with Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) it is analogous to DxOMark Landscape DR but with different normalization criteria.

I have just processed the Imaging Resource CR2 files for the EOS 5D Mark III.
Most people find my Photographic Dynamic Range Chart the best overview:
( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/PDR.htm )
A good cross section for comparing cameras is this bar chart:
( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/PDR_65.htm )
More technical information would include read noise:
( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/RN_ADU.htm )
And a restatement of PDR that shows how shadow DR improves with ISO:
( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/PDR_Shadow.htm )

Click on the model name in the chart legend to select and deselect the cameras to display.

You can see that the 5D Mark III compares favorably with the top Nikon models in PDR.

I will be adding 5D Mark II data that I already have shortly. The Mark III is similar to the Mark II at low ISO and shows slight improvement at high ISO.

Finally, if you would like to contribute Canon data for analysis then please contact me by email.

Regards
--
Bill (visit me at http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/ )
Click to expand...
 
So awesome that you're lending your expertise to Canon sensors. Thanks!

To get sanity on your Canon read noise numbers I first compared some of the Nikon numbers and something seems off, probably just me misinterpreting the results. For the D7000 you have ISO 100 read noise at 1.659 ADU (0.73 log2) vs the D3s ISO 200 read noise at 4.84 ADU (2.275 log2), for a differential of 2.9x. However when I compare the base ISO read noise values from the DxoMark-derived sensorgen numbers I see a differential of 8.25x between these two sensors (D3s @ 25.6 e- and D7000 @ 3.1 e-). I know I must be misinterpreting something. Can you shed some light on this?
 
bronxbombers said:
your results don't match with real world ability to shoot scenes with high DR, I think DxO charts make a lot more sense
Click to expand...
They do reflect the engineering measurements, so I think you can glean all the same information, including DxO type.

It's a very nice comparative tool as it is, and he's taken the time to do tests of the D800, D4, and 5DIII. Kind of a scoop. Nice of Biill to contribute it.
 
DxOMark derived values are often pretty far off the mark.
From sensorgen.info

the D3S numbers look like:
2.8e 83732 FWC implies gain about 5.11 or 0.5 ADU read noise.
Read noise a fraction of an ADU looks way off.

For the D7000
5.3e 48058 FWC implies gain of 2.93 or 1.8 ADI which agrees OK with my 1.659

Regards

--
Bill (visit me at http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/ )
 
bclaff said:
DxOMark derived values are often pretty far off the mark.
From sensorgen.info

the D3S numbers look like:
2.8e 83732 FWC implies gain about 5.11 or 0.5 ADU read noise.
Read noise a fraction of an ADU looks way off.

For the D7000
5.3e 48058 FWC implies gain of 2.93 or 1.8 ADI which agrees OK with my 1.659
Click to expand...
I think you were looking at the summary sensorgen home page which shows the minimum read noise values (typically for Highest ISO) and maximum saturation value (Base ISO). If you click on the specific model you'll get a listing by ISO:

D3s ISO 200: 25.0e- @ saturation of 81876
D7000 ISO 100: 3.1e- @ saturation 49058
 
For some reason, I can't see the charts through any of your links. The text below the chart area comes through, but not the charts themselves. Perhaps it's some function of my browser or antivirus settings, perhaps not. I'm very curious to see your results. Would you please attach some of the charts directly to a post on this thread, so I might see thyem. Thank you for what sounds like a lot of hard work on your part.

Regards,
David
--
Keep learning; share knowledge; think seriously about outcomes; seek wisdom.
 
A very helpful comparison tool. The D3x is amazing. Knew it was great but it really stands out in these charts.
Luke Kaven said:
bronxbombers said:
your results don't match with real world ability to shoot scenes with high DR, I think DxO charts make a lot more sense
Click to expand...
They do reflect the engineering measurements, so I think you can glean all the same information, including DxO type.

It's a very nice comparative tool as it is, and he's taken the time to do tests of the D800, D4, and 5DIII. Kind of a scoop. Nice of Biill to contribute it.
Click to expand...
--
Cheers,
Doug

http://doglesby.zenfolio.com/
 
bclaff said:
Luke,

My criteria is stricter than DxOMark but this simply shifts all the values down along the y-axis.
Differences and relative placement are pretty much the same as DxOMark.

Regards
--
Bill (visit me at http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/ )
Click to expand...
Maybe I looked the wrong chart or misread something but it seemed to show the d3x having worse DR than the D3s and 5D2 and other odd things.

hmm i see that someone else just commented that it reaffirms how great the D3x DR is so i guess i did look at the wrong chart or misread something, sorry I will take a look again
 
Bill,

Did you take into account that the Canon zero point is 2048 and tops out in the 14000's for the 5d mk3?
 
bclaff said:
OK.
So 25.0e at 81876 implies 5.11 gain and 5 ADU now OK with my 4.84 ADU value.

I'm confused. Things look OK.
Click to expand...
For the D7000 ISO 100 your chart shows 1.659 ADU read noise. Based on a gain of 2.93 e- that works out to 4.86 e-. The sensorgen numbers show 3.1 e- for ISO 100.

The D3s numbers match up much closer.
 
I was looking at the wrong thing. Yeah your results seem to make sense. They don't entirely math other measurements, and they pull some cameras closer together, etc. but it makes sense now.
bronxbombers said:
your results don't match with real world ability to shoot scenes with high DR, I think DxO charts make a lot more sense
bclaff said:
This is my first post in any dpreview Canon forum.

I think the information will be of interest to certain people but certainly not to everyone.
I consider my testing methodology to be objective.
So please don't "shoot the messenger" if you don't like the results.

That said, I have far more experience testing Nikon cameras than Canon so errors with the Canon measurements are slightly more likely than for Nikon.

The testing methodologies are pretty standard and are outlined at my site, primarily in the Sensor Analysis Primer.( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/GeneralTopics/Sensors_&_Raw/Sensor_Analysis_Primer/Sensor_Analysis_Primer.htm )

If you're not familiar with Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) it is analogous to DxOMark Landscape DR but with different normalization criteria.

I have just processed the Imaging Resource CR2 files for the EOS 5D Mark III.
Most people find my Photographic Dynamic Range Chart the best overview:
( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/PDR.htm )
A good cross section for comparing cameras is this bar chart:
( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/PDR_65.htm )
More technical information would include read noise:
( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/RN_ADU.htm )
And a restatement of PDR that shows how shadow DR improves with ISO:
( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/PDR_Shadow.htm )

Click on the model name in the chart legend to select and deselect the cameras to display.

You can see that the 5D Mark III compares favorably with the top Nikon models in PDR.

I will be adding 5D Mark II data that I already have shortly. The Mark III is similar to the Mark II at low ISO and shows slight improvement at high ISO.

Finally, if you would like to contribute Canon data for analysis then please contact me by email.

Regards
--
Bill (visit me at http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/ )
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
bclaff said:
This is my first post in any dpreview Canon forum.

I think the information will be of interest to certain people but certainly not to everyone.
I consider my testing methodology to be objective.
So please don't "shoot the messenger" if you don't like the results.

That said, I have far more experience testing Nikon cameras than Canon so errors with the Canon measurements are slightly more likely than for Nikon.

The testing methodologies are pretty standard and are outlined at my site, primarily in the Sensor Analysis Primer.( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/GeneralTopics/Sensors_&_Raw/Sensor_Analysis_Primer/Sensor_Analysis_Primer.htm )

If you're not familiar with Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) it is analogous to DxOMark Landscape DR but with different normalization criteria.

I have just processed the Imaging Resource CR2 files for the EOS 5D Mark III.
Most people find my Photographic Dynamic Range Chart the best overview:
( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/PDR.htm )
A good cross section for comparing cameras is this bar chart:
( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/PDR_65.htm )
More technical information would include read noise:
( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/RN_ADU.htm )
And a restatement of PDR that shows how shadow DR improves with ISO:
( http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/PDR_Shadow.htm )

Click on the model name in the chart legend to select and deselect the cameras to display.

You can see that the 5D Mark III compares favorably with the top Nikon models in PDR.

I will be adding 5D Mark II data that I already have shortly. The Mark III is similar to the Mark II at low ISO and shows slight improvement at high ISO.

Finally, if you would like to contribute Canon data for analysis then please contact me by email.

Regards
--
Bill (visit me at http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/ )
Click to expand...
Great stuff. Thanks!
 
Sorry, but I am seeing absolutely no remnant of a chart or choice to click any link to a camera choice or the chart itself, empty or full, at all. Could very well be a Java issue, either with your script or my computer, or some combination thereof. First time I've had such an issue in the three years I've had this very, very well specified PC. Same request then, if possible. Thanks for your reply.

Regards,
David
--
Keep learning; share knowledge; think seriously about outcomes; seek wisdom.
 
very interesting because iso 50 is a non-native iso and is supposed to loose DR because of the 'push' the camera does to achieve it. In my light testing is seems that the highlights get cut sooner at iso 50

But check out iso 50 vs. iso 100 on the 5d3. According to these numbers, iso 50 has the best DR on the 5d3.

Either Canon figured out a way to enhance iso 50 performance, or perhaps iso 100 is inhibited some how?
 
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