No more D7 production pics?

probepro

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It seems like just one or two folks world wide have posted a few production D7 pics on the web, and that was 2 days ago. There’s been nothing since then. Given all the interest in this camera, does it seem strange to anyone else that more folks haven’t come forward? I realize the D7 may be only available in Japan right now, but I would have expected some of the photo sites to post pics. Even the Minolta site doesn’t have any samples. I’m not suggesting there is anything nefarious about this, but it does seem strange.
 
My theory....(I don't know the real reason)...

It's not exactly fun to post pictures you've taken with your brand new camera when people just start tearing them to shreds. Joe H. (last name withheld to protect the innocent) was one of the first people in the forums to get his hands on an Oly E-10 and people not only criticized the image quality but his photography as well!!! The whole thing was a real eye-opener to me since I considered his photography superior to mine. He drove all over town to take what I thought were some really nice pictures for us to look at and he and his camera got savaged!
 
Dima has posted a few new pictures with sharpening turned off.
They really show how sharp the lens is.

It has just reinforced my opinion of the D7.

Duane
It seems like just one or two folks world wide have posted a few
production D7 pics on the web, and that was 2 days ago.
There’s been nothing since then. Given all the interest in
this camera, does it seem strange to anyone else that more folks
haven’t come forward? I realize the D7 may be only available
in Japan right now, but I would have expected some of the photo
sites to post pics. Even the Minolta site doesn’t have any
samples. I’m not suggesting there is anything nefarious
about this, but it does seem strange.
 
Hi Duane,

While a lot of former pictures of the D7 have given me an odd feeling, this
two fragments ( i assume that this are not resized ones) confirming my
initial opinion about the D7. They are just looking great, doesn't they?

Regards,

Andreas
 
These shots confirm to me that proably the in-camera sharpening of D/ is a little bit to aggressive. We liked to have another level fore more soft images (D/ have onli Low/normal/ high)

Therefore we have to consider that from a sharpen image is easy to obtain a nice soft pic in the digital darkroom (read photoshop).

Therefore it's not true the opposite: from a soft image it's really hartd to obtain a good sharp image with a simple post processing.
This is obvoius thinking that the softening process cause loss of data.
Hi Duane,

While a lot of former pictures of the D7 have given me an odd
feeling, this
two fragments ( i assume that this are not resized ones) confirming my
initial opinion about the D7. They are just looking great, doesn't
they?

Regards,

Andreas
 
Hi Giovanni,

I am not sure if i understood your reply.

Anyway, for me this recent pics show the quality which i would expect

from the D7, not more not less (it is not a high end cam, all those comparisons with a D1X or so are senseless IMO).

For me those level of sharpness let the user space to do his own digital darkroom work.

Regards,

Andreas
 
What I mean it the following:
1) the camera haev tree level of sharpeneing : low/normal/high

2) for the taste of some people the normal and high level produce too sharpened images

Conclusions:

1) It would be preferabliy to have more (6 or 7) sharpening level, to obtain more soft pictures (but we can't chage this camera)

2) Over all it's preferably a camera that produce too sharp pics than a camera that produce too soft pics because in the soft pics are less details

Explanation

1) sharp image contain more detail than soft images (the explanation is that softening process "mean" the values of close pixels - a simplified explanation)

1) With photoshop is possible starting from a sharp image produce nice soft images

2) With photoshop it's NOT possible starting from a soft image produce good sharp images because soft image have less details: photoshop can't create the details that are not in the original soft piccture!

I hope to have been more clear. Sorry if not.
Hi Giovanni,

I am not sure if i understood your reply.

Anyway, for me this recent pics show the quality which i would expect
from the D7, not more not less (it is not a high end cam, all those
comparisons with a D1X or so are senseless IMO).

For me those level of sharpness let the user space to do his own
digital darkroom work.

Regards,

Andreas
 
Hi Giovanni,

I have a nearly totally different opinion. First "sharpness" is a very subjectice perception. Second the pictures delivered by an CMOS/CCD imager always
are "soft". Look for example on images of the D30 which doesn't apply a lot

of internal sharpening to the RAW-datas. This , of course, doesn't mean that the images doesn't contain the details. The contrary is the fact.

Sometimes (and it seems the D7 is working this way) the internal sharpening is over-agressive which destroy the picture in my mind. Beside of
this the perception of noise is increasing too.

So i would like to have the low-sharpened or better RAW pics and do my own digital darkroom work.

Regards,

Andreas
 
...it's preferably a camera that produce too sharp pics
than a camera that produce too soft pics because in the soft pics
are less details...
Giovanni, I have good news:

The opposite is true.

A digicam at its "softest" setting doesn't lose detail -- it simply has "sharpening" switched off. All those higher "sharpening" levels really do NOT add any detail that wasn't there -- they merely artificially enhance whatever detail exists. Unfortunately, noise also gets enhanced... the cameras are too stupid to differentiate noise from detail!

As well, aggressive sharpening creatives weird border artifacts. I know for a fact that there are experts lurking here who can explain the intricacies far better than I can.

Hugo
http://hugomartinez.com
 
Giovanni wrote:
...
2) Over all it's preferably a camera that produce too sharp pics
than a camera that produce too soft pics because in the soft pics
are less details
Excuse me! This is plainly wrong.

If you do a low pass filtering of an image (softening if you like) you will loose high frequency detail (such as edges or small detail).

Sharpening is more or less a high pass filtering, often a non-linear one to just sharpen edges (unfortunately also noise). It increases contrast along edges and gives an impression of being sharper. In reality it is no magic, it can´t create details that aren´t in the original data... (as you said). It is a function of how the eye perceive the image as sharp due to high contrast edges/detail that make this work.

But your conclusions are all wrong. The CAMERA doesn´t do ANY low pass filtering to make the "softer" images, it just doesn´t do as much sharpening ! So, even with the camera set to the lowest setting, ALL detail IS there. Theoretically MORE detail is there without sharpening!

It is NOT preferable to have a camera doing too much sharpening! You can NEVER UNDO an oversharpened image! You can do low pass and make the image blurry and thus decrease the impact of the oversharpened edges but when you do you will at the same time destroy other information in the image!

On the other hand, if the camera do little or NO sharpening at all the images from the camera will look a little soft, but it is EASY to sharpen them in photoshop! You can of course do a much better job at filtering and sharpening in photoshop or other programs than is possible to do in the camera (with little program space, little processing time, etc).

So, please don´t confuse a "low sharpening" setting in a camera with low pass filtering, it isn´t done that way. If you switch of sharpening completely in a digital camera this will be the same as film (where you of course don´t have any sharpening algorithms available in the camera).
 
I think that all what you said is based on this assumption:

low sharpening = no filter from raw data
normal sharpening = sharpening filter
high shapening = strong shapening filter.

Personally I hope that You are right it will be better.

Therefore for all what we know on this camera (before to have in in the hands) it can be also

low sharpening = softening filter
normal sharpening = no filter
high shapening = shapening filter.

or also (but I dont' think it will be possible)

low sharpening = strong softening filter
normal sharpening = softening filter
high shapening = no filter.

To judge we need to have the same shot with 3 different settings AND the RAW format file to compare. In this way we can undestand which filter the camera apply.

I agree absolutely all what you said.

Moreovere the sharpening filter produce commonly more "damages" than a softening filter.

What I said is that I prefer NO filter absoleutely: this is the only way to preserve details. If I want a more soft image it's easy with photoshop without to degrade too much.

But if we start with an already softened image from camera by a in-camera filter it's hard to bringh out details. The same of course is for the sharpening BUT from what I see this camera (D7) as enough sharpening for all the tastes, this is not in discussions. The discussion is IF D7 produce too shapen images and if this is due to the CCD characteristics or due to the camera software and more important in which way we can be sure to turn off ALL the filters without using the RAW format.

This my problem I DON'T want filtered images from the camera.

I'm not sure at 100% that all the cameras in the market dont' have any softening filter hided in some way in the bios, for example to reduce the noise perception...

If I'm wrong on that I will be more happy.. but I have some suspect that some producer use this trick.
2) Over all it's preferably a camera that produce too sharp pics
than a camera that produce too soft pics because in the soft pics
are less details
Excuse me! This is plainly wrong.

If you do a low pass filtering of an image (softening if you like)
you will loose high frequency detail (such as edges or small
detail).

Sharpening is more or less a high pass filtering, often a
non-linear one to just sharpen edges (unfortunately also noise). It
increases contrast along edges and gives an impression of being
sharper. In reality it is no magic, it can´t create details that
aren´t in the original data... (as you said). It is a function of
how the eye perceive the image as sharp due to high contrast
edges/detail that make this work.

But your conclusions are all wrong. The CAMERA doesn´t do ANY low
pass filtering to make the "softer" images, it just doesn´t do as
much sharpening ! So, even with the camera set to the lowest
setting, ALL detail IS there. Theoretically MORE detail is there
without sharpening!

It is NOT preferable to have a camera doing too much sharpening!
You can NEVER UNDO an oversharpened image! You can do low pass and
make the image blurry and thus decrease the impact of the
oversharpened edges but when you do you will at the same time
destroy other information in the image!

On the other hand, if the camera do little or NO sharpening at all
the images from the camera will look a little soft, but it is EASY
to sharpen them in photoshop! You can of course do a much better
job at filtering and sharpening in photoshop or other programs than
is possible to do in the camera (with little program space, little
processing time, etc).

So, please don´t confuse a "low sharpening" setting in a camera
with low pass filtering, it isn´t done that way. If you switch of
sharpening completely in a digital camera this will be the same as
film (where you of course don´t have any sharpening algorithms
available in the camera).
 
I think that all what you said is based on this assumption:
It's not based on any assumptions. The "soft" setting for sharpness in digital cameras is either no sharpening or minimal sharpening.

In particular, the D7 provides a wide range of sharpening options, including no sharpening. This is documented in the review at imaging-resources, where you can download resolution test chart images taken at all different sharpness settings and see what these settings do.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
 
I think that all what you said is based on this assumption:

low sharpening = no filter from raw data
normal sharpening = sharpening filter
high shapening = strong shapening filter.

Personally I hope that You are right it will be better.
Therefore for all what we know on this camera (before to have in in
the hands) it can be also

low sharpening = softening filter
normal sharpening = no filter
high shapening = shapening filter.

or also (but I dont' think it will be possible)

low sharpening = strong softening filter
normal sharpening = softening filter
high shapening = no filter.
On imaging Resources there are resoultion test charts shot at the three D7 sharpening settings (and three settings don't seem like enough to me, I'd like an "off" setting also). If you compare the Low and Normal settings charts, there seems to be the same amount of detail visible in each one, so that the camera does not appear to be applying any active blurring in "Low", just less sharpening. Unfortunately, there is still sharpening being applied in "Low", you can still see the artifacts (bright halos around all dark objects, for example), but they are a lot less strong. I would probably use the Low setting myself. Maybe the only way to get unsharpened pictures from this camera will be to shoot Raw, which is going to be slow to store. Fortunately, the Low setting looks like it will be OK for most things.

In many respects this camera is an evolution of the Sony D770. All of the external controls are similar, including the "command dial". Even the sharpening chosen is similar, with "Normal" being much too strong, and "High" being just crazy way over the top. I don't see why they can't provide a few more sharpening settings, there could still be a very strong sharpening by default if the Marketing guys demand it becuase they think that it will sell cameras to novices, as long as we can change it. The too strong sharpening on Normal (and compare the halos on the test charts to the artifacts from other cameras on their default levels if you don't believe me) spoils the camera for serious use with that setting.

Bryan
 
I hope that you are wrong, becasue it can contitue a non-sense limitation and a mistake in the desgn.

I hope at leat that low mean no sharpening.

As I said i prefer NO FILTER!

NO shaerpening
NO softeneing

This is the best situation to get all detail posssible.

Why "impose" sharpening filter? IMHO it's a crazy marketing choice in a so full-featured camera.

I hope you are wrong but you can be right.
I think that all what you said is based on this assumption:

low sharpening = no filter from raw data
normal sharpening = sharpening filter
high shapening = strong shapening filter.

Personally I hope that You are right it will be better.
Therefore for all what we know on this camera (before to have in in
the hands) it can be also

low sharpening = softening filter
normal sharpening = no filter
high shapening = shapening filter.

or also (but I dont' think it will be possible)

low sharpening = strong softening filter
normal sharpening = softening filter
high shapening = no filter.
On imaging Resources there are resoultion test charts shot at the
three D7 sharpening settings (and three settings don't seem like
enough to me, I'd like an "off" setting also). If you compare the
Low and Normal settings charts, there seems to be the same amount
of detail visible in each one, so that the camera does not appear
to be applying any active blurring in "Low", just less sharpening.
Unfortunately, there is still sharpening being applied in "Low",
you can still see the artifacts (bright halos around all dark
objects, for example), but they are a lot less strong. I would
probably use the Low setting myself. Maybe the only way to get
unsharpened pictures from this camera will be to shoot Raw, which
is going to be slow to store. Fortunately, the Low setting looks
like it will be OK for most things.

In many respects this camera is an evolution of the Sony D770. All
of the external controls are similar, including the "command dial".
Even the sharpening chosen is similar, with "Normal" being much too
strong, and "High" being just crazy way over the top. I don't see
why they can't provide a few more sharpening settings, there could
still be a very strong sharpening by default if the Marketing guys
demand it becuase they think that it will sell cameras to novices,
as long as we can change it. The too strong sharpening on Normal
(and compare the halos on the test charts to the artifacts from
other cameras on their default levels if you don't believe me)
spoils the camera for serious use with that setting.

Bryan
 
It is possible if is (as I think) only a software issue not concerning CCD characteristics, lenses or other physical feature.

Therefore don't expect more than 3 levels because this is linked to a "physical" switch, I think.
I believe that this 'sharpening' matter could possibly be taken
care of in a future firmware upgrade??

Bob Dolson
 
I think that all what you said is based on this assumption:

low sharpening = no filter from raw data
normal sharpening = sharpening filter
high shapening = strong shapening filter.
Yes.
Therefore for all what we know on this camera (before to have in in
the hands) it can be also

low sharpening = softening filter
normal sharpening = no filter
high shapening = shapening filter.
Okey, theoretically yes, but in practice there is no camera
doing this, and I think there won´t be. I think this will be
verified in just a few days when people start looking at RAW
files.
discussions. The discussion is IF D7 produce too shapen images and
if this is due to the CCD characteristics or due to the camera
software and more important in which way we can be sure to turn off
ALL the filters without using the RAW format.
It isn´t the CCD, it is the USM processing in camera.
Almost all digicams do some USM before storing tiff/jpg.
This my problem I DON'T want filtered images from the camera.
Then your only choice is the RAW format and do all the filtering
yourself afterwards, but sooner or later filtering and interpolation
has to take place...
I'm not sure at 100% that all the cameras in the market dont' have
any softening filter hided in some way in the bios, for example to
reduce the noise perception...
If they do any noise reduction that is probably a variant of median filter (adaptive maybe) or along those lines. To use a lowpass filter (softening) to hide noise would be too crude a weapon and the camera tests this and other sites perform would clearly show a poor result on resolution targets! The D7 has contrarily been very good in resolution tests...
 
Thanks Junjiro. I'm really amateur status, but boy these shots look good. I'd love to hear what criticisms and kudos a more trained eye would have regarding these.

In the past, I've expecially liked the results the canon G1 gets. I'd bought an S75 (which feels great in the hand and has excellent ergonomics) until I heard about the s85, so I took it back and decided to sit tight for a bit. (Won't be on the side lines for long!)

I couldn't spot any CA on these shots, but i didn't really zoom in. Would love to see how it handles low light situation with skin tones. That always seems to be a tough one. Plus want to be sure the noise issue isn't out of control vs. the others.

Can't wait for phil's review.

dave
 

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