False Sense of Economy?

[Ulysses]

Your palm top. Yes, your desktop too. Your Cell phone. Your
portable music player. Your Camcorder. Your thermal Satelite
Tribunder. And yes your brand new, agressively priced S75.

Don't forget the less flash applications: Your car, your microwave, your fridge, your security system, even your coffee maker, to name a few.

Memory Stick is about storage of data across different devices, and knowing how to store and segregate that data until its needed by a different and unrelated device.

 

[Chau D]

Now Mike, you tell me that 128MB MS costs $150.
But what if I can use the same MS in my camcorder? Is it now
"effecfively" down to $75? And if I can use it in my new PDA, is it
now down to $50?
And so on and so on.

Your scenerio sounds great but what if while you're out of the house taking pictures, your wife at home wants to use the camcorder at that same moment than that MS stick gets right back to $75 (from $50). The son or daughter also wants to use that MS stick for their MP3 music while mom and dad are having fun with their Sony toys. Now that cheap piece of MS is back to where it was $150 ea.
And so on and so on.

Chau

 

[Michael Kincaid]

Your palm top. Yes, your desktop too. Your Cell phone. Your
portable music player. Your Camcorder. Your thermal Satelite
Tribunder. And yes your brand new, agressively priced S75.

Don't forget the less flash applications: Your car, your microwave,
your fridge, your security system, even your coffee maker, to name
a few.

Memory Stick is about storage of data across different devices, and
knowing how to store and segregate that data until its needed by
a different and unrelated device.

This doesn't really have much to do with Memory Stick, but flash media in general. There's no reason your palmtop, laptop, desktop, cell phone, MP3 player, camera, and camcorder can't all have CompactFlash slots. The difference is, that'll only happen with Memory Stick if your palmtop, laptop, desktop, cell phone, MP3 player, camera, and camcorder are all made by Sony. This sort of convergence would be much more likely to happen with an open standard (CF or SM).

 

[Ulysses]

This doesn't really have much to do with Memory Stick, but flash
media in general. There's no reason your palmtop, laptop, desktop,
cell phone, MP3 player, camera, and camcorder can't all have
CompactFlash slots. The difference is, that'll only happen with
Memory Stick if your palmtop, laptop, desktop, cell phone, MP3
player, camera, and camcorder are all made by Sony. This sort of
convergence would be much more likely to happen with an open
standard (CF or SM).

Mmmmm... maybe, and maybe not.

The Memory Stick spec is different from those other flash formats in the specific ways we've been talking about. It is about organization of data types. That sort of organization is built in. You already see that in the cameras (no less than three different folders for different types of files), and in the Clié (which creates its own folder for file storage), and in MP3 players (more folders again).

Can** you do this with other flash memory? Yeah. Probably. Sure. But generally they don't.

Another thing that is appealing to the manufacturers that seem to want to participate is the diminuitive size of the format.

Add to this the tremendous GROWTH of the Memory Stick in such a short time, and you've got a recipe for success and convergence. Convergence almost always happens when you have a strong leadership to begin with. Neither of the other major formats has that in a practical sense.

 

[Martin Stefanus Tedjawardhana]

I agree with you Chau... why buy $150 MS when you can buy two CF with each has the same capacity as the MS for $160. You can take stills while your son can listen to MP3.. everybody is happy. Open standard like CF and SM are much better for the consumer than proprietary technology like MS, I and many others dont want to be dictated by companies like sony, who uses it's name and power to control it's own consumer.

Btw, memory is still memory, although each has its own pros and cons at the end its up to us to decide and how deep our pockets are.

Now Mike, you tell me that 128MB MS costs $150.
But what if I can use the same MS in my camcorder? Is it now
"effecfively" down to $75? And if I can use it in my new PDA, is it
now down to $50?
And so on and so on.

Your scenerio sounds great but what if while you're out of the
house taking pictures, your wife at home wants to use the camcorder
at that same moment than that MS stick gets right back to $75 (from
$50). The son or daughter also wants to use that MS stick for their
MP3 music while mom and dad are having fun with their Sony toys.
Now that cheap piece of MS is back to where it was $150 ea.
And so on and so on.

Chau

 

[Chau D]

I agree with you Chau... why buy $150 MS when you can buy two CF
with each has the same capacity as the MS for $160. You can take
stills while your son can listen to MP3.. everybody is happy. Open
standard like CF and SM are much better for the consumer than
proprietary technology like MS, I and many others dont want to be
dictated by companies like sony, who uses it's name and power to
control it's own consumer.

Btw, memory is still memory, although each has its own pros and
cons at the end its up to us to decide and how deep our pockets are.

...and I aggree with you too, Martin. Memory is memory. I don't know of any complaint or evidence that CF or SmartMedia are inferior to MS or vice versa. I'm not bashing the MS, just HATE the way SONY has us by the balls with their pricing. The only reason I bought my S70 is that BestBuy had a special 2-year same as cash plus I had a 10% off coupon at the time most dealers sold the S70 for $800. The S70 has it pros and cons but I never complaint about those (if I remember correctly), just hate to buy that extra and ridiculously priced MS/battery.

 

[Ulysses]

Btw, memory is still memory, although each has its own pros and
cons at the end its up to us to decide and how deep our pockets are.

So if you retain that ability to choose, then how is anyone "controlled" by Sony?

I agree with you: Memory is memory. Buy what you need to work with the camera of choice. I wouldn't make the memory the decision maker for my choice in a camera unless I had a specific need for a specific memory format and type.

 

[Ulysses]

...and I aggree with you too, Martin. Memory is memory. I don't
know of any complaint or evidence that CF or SmartMedia are
inferior to MS or vice versa. I'm not bashing the MS, just HATE
the way SONY has us by the balls with their pricing. The only
reason I bought my S70 is that BestBuy had a special 2-year same as
cash plus I had a 10% off coupon at the time most dealers sold the
S70 for $800. The S70 has it pros and cons but I never complaint
about those (if I remember correctly), just hate to buy that extra
and ridiculously priced MS/battery.

In what way are you held captive, other than by the excellent image quality? And if the latter is the case, the rest is really only an auxilliary point.

If it is major source of contention, then have you considered selling the S70, its accessories and moving on so as to protect the family valuables?

 

[Chau D]

In what way are you held captive, other than by the excellent image
quality? And if the latter is the case, the rest is really only an
auxilliary point.

The way i look at it is that i could have double the number of MS and therefore more pictures i could take if Sony priced the stick more reasonable. Have you ever look at the price different between Iomega PhotoShow and Minds@Work Digital Wallet? Why are they so much different? Isn't it because of Sony proprietary MS. Yes, I know there are and more companies looking into making MS compatible devices. But that's only rumors and speculations. Show me the real devices.

If it is major source of contention, then have you considered
selling the S70, its accessories and moving on so as to protect the
family valuables?

Believe me, I've thought about that so many many times. The reason I still have the S70 is i can't stand the thought of losing so much money from the S70+2 MS+2 batt.+stick reader for the short time I've own my camera.

 

[Ulysses]

Believe me, I've thought about that so many many times. The reason
I still have the S70 is i can't stand the thought of losing so much
money from the S70+2 MS+2 batt.+stick reader for the short time
I've own my camera.

I haven't checked lately, but what do you think you could get for all of that... Reasonably? And what would you LIKE to get for it?

 

[Martin Stefanus Tedjawardhana]

So if you retain that ability to choose, then how is anyone
"controlled" by Sony?

You can still choose, I just dont like the behaviour of companies like Sony, Microsoft and many others trying to put some control their customer. They tries to make you stick and buy their products and become dependent. Almost every companies do that of course, but some are worse than others.

I agree with you: Memory is memory. Buy what you need to work with
the camera of choice. I wouldn't make the memory the decision maker
for my choice in a camera unless I had a specific need for a
specific memory format and type.

Certainly right, but not completely memory is an investment, if you have CF or SM there is a big chance you can still use it for you next camera. I dont care what brand my camera is as long as its good, in the future if I want to sell my camera and buy another brand I can keep my CF. Try that with Sony, if you buy Sony camera now and buy brand Z camera later will you MS fit in it?

Unless you want to stick with Sony cameras for eternity or if you dont mind losing some money selling and buying memory, buy another brand.

 

[Nylazyman]

So if you retain that ability to choose, then how is anyone
"controlled" by Sony?

You can still choose, I just dont like the behaviour of companies
like Sony, Microsoft and many others trying to put some control
their customer. They tries to make you stick and buy their products
and become dependent. Almost every companies do that of course, but
some are worse than others.

I agree with you: Memory is memory. Buy what you need to work with
the camera of choice. I wouldn't make the memory the decision maker
for my choice in a camera unless I had a specific need for a
specific memory format and type.

Certainly right, but not completely memory is an investment, if you
have CF or SM there is a big chance you can still use it for you
next camera. I dont care what brand my camera is as long as its
good, in the future if I want to sell my camera and buy another
brand I can keep my CF. Try that with Sony, if you buy Sony camera
now and buy brand Z camera later will you MS fit in it?

Arent there some cams only use CF or SM? U may still stuck with one brand or one series.

Unless you want to stick with Sony cameras for eternity or if you
dont mind losing some money selling and buying memory, buy another
brand.

 

[Tom May]

Mike,

When comparing prices, also compare the power supply (batteries, etc). Sony provides the infolithium battery in all of their digicam and videocam products. Equivalent systems for other brands can add up to a $100 to the price.

(I noticed that the S85 will be including a 16 M Memory stick, a capacity which seems long overdue).

Tom

I have seen several make the claim that Sony cameras are a good buy
because the sales price of the S75,S85 was (say $100-150 less) than
the competition with similar features. If one looks at only the
price of the camera, this is true, but I find it very short sighted
ecomomy.
Every digicam photograher will buy more memory; the amount that
comes with the camera is just so you can check it out and see that
it works when you open the box. Any photographer worth their salt
will buy 128 mb or more if they have a 3 mp camera. In fact, this
is one area where much more memory is much more better! You're not
using your camera to its capability if you are always concerned
about running out of memory. Its clear that memory sticks are
almost 2X the price of CF (128 mb CF can be had or less than $80).
With the S85 and beyond, file sizes continue to get larger and even
more memory will be needed make use of S85 features such as
bracketing. When Sony finally intorduces a 1 gb MS ($$$???) IBM
will have a 6 gb microdirve (and microdrive competition to keep the
prices reasonable).
I believe the lower pricing of S75/85 is a marketing gimmick to
make the camera apperar cheaper. However, Sony will pocket the
difference when you purchase your supply of Sony memory sticks.
The marketing staff at Sony are very aware of this trade off, don't
get caught in their short term pricing trick. If you are a new
camera buyer, figure on purchasing 2x the amount of memory you
think you'll need (the likely outcome) and add that to the price to
the camera. Do the same with the competition and weigh your
choices based upon that calculation. Get a Sony for its features
and performance, not for its apparently low price.
Regards, Mike K.

 

[Martin Stefanus Tedjawardhana]

Arent there some cams only use CF or SM? U may still stuck with one
brand or one series.

One brand? no way. I use Nikon, I can switch to Canon, Casio, Epson, Kodak, Olympus, Pentax, etc anytime and still be able to use my CF. You can use SM for Fuji, Olympus, Ricoh, Agfa. One brand?

 

[Homer40784]

Granted that your odss are better.
But the point remains that if you have CF, you can't use it in Fuji.
If you have hundreds of dollars of SM, Don't bother looking at Oly.
There IS no standard memory card.

Homer

Arent there some cams only use CF or SM? U may still stuck with one
brand or one series.

One brand? no way. I use Nikon, I can switch to Canon, Casio,
Epson, Kodak, Olympus, Pentax, etc anytime and still be able to use
my CF. You can use SM for Fuji, Olympus, Ricoh, Agfa. One brand?

 

[Doug D.]

Mike,

When comparing prices, also compare the power supply (batteries,
etc). Sony provides the infolithium battery in all of their digicam
and videocam products. Equivalent systems for other brands can add
up to a $100 to the price.

(I noticed that the S85 will be including a 16 M Memory stick, a
capacity which seems long overdue).
Tom

Wow! that's enough memory for 1 Tiff and 4 high res. Jpegs.

I have seen several make the claim that Sony cameras are a good buy
because the sales price of the S75,S85 was (say $100-150 less) than
the competition with similar features. If one looks at only the
price of the camera, this is true, but I find it very short sighted
ecomomy.
Every digicam photograher will buy more memory; the amount that
comes with the camera is just so you can check it out and see that
it works when you open the box. Any photographer worth their salt
will buy 128 mb or more if they have a 3 mp camera. In fact, this
is one area where much more memory is much more better! You're not
using your camera to its capability if you are always concerned
about running out of memory. Its clear that memory sticks are
almost 2X the price of CF (128 mb CF can be had or less than $80).
With the S85 and beyond, file sizes continue to get larger and even
more memory will be needed make use of S85 features such as
bracketing. When Sony finally intorduces a 1 gb MS ($$$???) IBM
will have a 6 gb microdirve (and microdrive competition to keep the
prices reasonable).
I believe the lower pricing of S75/85 is a marketing gimmick to
make the camera apperar cheaper. However, Sony will pocket the
difference when you purchase your supply of Sony memory sticks.
The marketing staff at Sony are very aware of this trade off, don't
get caught in their short term pricing trick. If you are a new
camera buyer, figure on purchasing 2x the amount of memory you
think you'll need (the likely outcome) and add that to the price to
the camera. Do the same with the competition and weigh your
choices based upon that calculation. Get a Sony for its features
and performance, not for its apparently low price.
Regards, Mike K.

 

[Chau D]

I haven't checked either. Reasonably, it'll be much less than the price of a brand new S75 at street price, and that's is why I'd rather keep my camera. But then again i like the S70, no problem there. If i ever get rid of the S70 is just to get out of the Sony dependency problem so to speak.

Chau

Believe me, I've thought about that so many many times. The reason
I still have the S70 is i can't stand the thought of losing so much
money from the S70+2 MS+2 batt.+stick reader for the short time
I've own my camera.

I haven't checked lately, but what do you think you could get for
all of that... Reasonably? And what would you LIKE to get for it?

 

[Nylazyman]

Thanks Homer to make my point clear

Homer

Arent there some cams only use CF or SM? U may still stuck with one
brand or one series.

One brand? no way. I use Nikon, I can switch to Canon, Casio,
Epson, Kodak, Olympus, Pentax, etc anytime and still be able to use
my CF. You can use SM for Fuji, Olympus, Ricoh, Agfa. One brand?

 

[Don Fordham]

Of course 64 mb is equivalent to say 1 1/2 rolls of film at a higher JPEG > > setting, as much as one might use in a P&S film camera during a > weekend.
Regards, Mike K

While I agree that 64meg is not really enough, it is misleading to equate it to 1 1/2 rolls of film because it usually represents all keepers due to the ability to instantly delete those pics you don't like. If 1 1/2 rolls of film is, say, 36 pictures, how many physical rolls of film would one go through with his P&S to get 36 keepers ? For me, probably 10 rolls or more (I'm not much of a photog).

Don

 

[Michael Kincaid]

This doesn't really have much to do with Memory Stick, but flash
media in general. There's no reason your palmtop, laptop, desktop,
cell phone, MP3 player, camera, and camcorder can't all have
CompactFlash slots. The difference is, that'll only happen with
Memory Stick if your palmtop, laptop, desktop, cell phone, MP3
player, camera, and camcorder are all made by Sony. This sort of
convergence would be much more likely to happen with an open
standard (CF or SM).

Mmmmm... maybe, and maybe not.

The Memory Stick spec is different from those other flash formats
in the specific ways we've been talking about. It is about
organization of data types. That sort of organization is built in.
You already see that in the cameras (no less than three different
folders for different types of files), and in the Clié (which
creates its own folder for file storage), and in MP3 players (more
folders again).

Maybe. But there are stories about CF, for example, where people have used them to carry around Word files and such-like, without their camera/music player noticing. I don't think any of the major media formats provides a big obstacle to that.

Can** you do this with other flash memory? Yeah. Probably. Sure.
But generally they don't.

But if it's important enough to consumers, they will.

Another thing that is appealing to the manufacturers that seem to
want to participate is the diminuitive size of the format.

Possible… but who are the manufacturers that want to participate? Sony, Sony, Sony, a few other companies with a half-hearted commitment (I can't think of anyone else that's actually shipped a Memory Stick product — it's just lip service), and did I mention Sony?

Sony will never rule the world of consumer electronics. They have to see that you need a standard beyond a single company to have convergence. (In other words, if convergence means buying only Sony products, consumers won't go for it.)

Add to this the tremendous GROWTH of the Memory Stick in such a
short time, and you've got a recipe for success and convergence.

Possible. As Phil noted in his recent news article, Memory Stick is overtaking SmartMedia. I wouldn't be surprised if SmartMedia dies out pretty soon. Its only original advantage was price, and CF is now cheaper (in my liimited observation). Memory Stick has a good deal more goiing for it. And good head-to-head competition between CF and MS will definitely be good for both.

Convergence almost always happens when you have a strong leadership
to begin with. Neither of the other major formats has that in a
practical sense.

Again, I would see that as a problem for SmartMedia but not CompactFlash.

(By the way, how is Phil's 128mb stick so BLUE? Or is that a color cast from his Nikon ;-)