D70 & E1 comparsion Images

Really?

Well I don't have PS but only PSE2. So I can only apply Gaussian blur on everything as I can't find the channels you mentioned. As expected the Gaussian blur didn't work in curing moire. Maybe someone with PS can operate on that building image and report back? I doubt it though...

photobug
  • which is more than can be said for a strong AA filter!
I'd be interested also in the comments of those more knowledgeable
than I.
I doubt that the moire is fixable. That decision was taken with the
nature and type of the AA filter that has been fitted.
Glad to see your post. I just addressed this issue myself in my
post above.
OTOH, I'd sooner fix moire when it occurs than fight with an
overly-aggressive AA
You might have a point. But then, I really don't know how to
address moire myself, as I have yet to encounter it with my
lowly-Oly, crusty, rusty E-20.

How do you fix moire?
Are you listening Nikon?

Do you mind telling us what is the firmware version of your D70 and
when did you get it? What lens was used to shoot those shots?

Thanks.

photobug
just made 2 simple test image between my D70 and an E1 from my
friend, 2 images with original crop.

would like to hear your opinion.

http://www.pbase.com/littlebabylon/test

Rgds
--
Kevin
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
--
markE
pbase supporter

'In wildness lies the preservation of the world.'
-Henry David Thoreau
-Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/marke/gallery/wingsoflight

--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
Yes these are what I understand too. I for one don't believe moire can be completely fixed without fixing AA filter, well unless one use a lens with a resolution lower than D70 to achieve similar filtering effects.

Good news is that the DX 18-70 appeared to be sharp enough to cause moire. A lesser lens likely won't show moire as clearly. But funny that 18-70 is designed to be the kit lens for D70.
My impression is that the inadequacy of the aa filter cannot be
perfectly fixed with post editing. According to the Nyquist thorem,
aliasing results when the highest frequency component of the
incoming information has frequency larger than the half of the
"sampling rate" of the analog to digital converter. By transforming
to image sensor terms (where resolution is the analogous of
frequency), "highest frequency component"="finest detail" and
"sampling rate"="pixel density". So any aliasing artifact could be
prevented by AA filter. Am I right?
 
just made 2 simple test image between my D70 and an E1 from my
friend, 2 images with original crop.

would like to hear your opinion.

http://www.pbase.com/littlebabylon/test
In the first pair of images of the cityscape, the Olympus E-1 image
appears to be over-exposed by at least 1/2 f/stop. Both the
highlights (brightest areas) and the shadows (darkest areas) are
uniformly lighter than in the corresponding D70 image. Since the
highlights in the E-1 image are blown-out and the areas which
should be black are not, this exposure can not be described as
anything but over-exposed.

Of course this gives rise to the question about "why" the E-1 image
is over-exposed, but that can't be answered without knowing more
about how the shutter speed and f/stop were determined.

In the second pair of images with the man sitting at the desk, the
lighting of the main subject in both secnes is not equal. In the
D70 image, the man is bent forward in such a way that his face and
shoulders are several inches closer to the main light source -
which apparently is a table lamp. When the light source is this
close to the main subject, just a few inches of variance in
distance can make a big difference. I estimate that in the E-1
image, the man's face and shoulders are receiving about 1 f/stop
less light than in the D70 image.
Thanks for pointing out the differences in exposure settings between the two cameras, I do agree that it would be difficult to compare any two cameras without accurate meter readings used to determine exposure for each, not just setting both cameras to the same ISO. It's also hard to compare DSLRs in general since each has its own unique set of in camera processing and levels of in camera sharpening, the E-1 seeming to be quite low compared to others. But again, I am impressed with the D70 image quality from a camera with such a low price. Now if they could just combine that with a body comparable to the E-1...
Uwe Steinmueller of Outback Photography recently posted 2 galleries
of images which compare images from the Olympus E-1 to the Canon
EOS-1Ds. Except for minor differences in color balance, the images
from both cameras are virtually indistinguishable. Here are the
links:

http://www.jirvana.com/galleries/1ds_gallery_01/index.htm

http://www.jirvana.com/galleries/olympus_e1_03/index.htm

This is really great news for Nikon D70 owners. If the comparison
images by littlebabylon in this thread prove that D70 image quality
is superior to the E-1, by extrapolation it is safe to assume that
D70 image quality is also superior to the Canon 1Ds.
Well...if you read Uwe's post in the News forum regarding his recent side by side comparisons between the 1Ds and the E-1,

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=7885782

he does state that "Of course the 1Ds delivers more resolution." Honestly, I think I would be hard pressed to say otherwise. Even with the compressed web versions in his gallery, I can notice the difference, even if it is slight.

This just illustrates how the E-1 is in a class by itself, so to speak. It doesn't have the resolution potential that higher pro cameras possess, but it exceeds all consumer level DSLRs in build quailty. It's a kind of middle ground that unfortunately seems to open it up for all kinds of criticism.
In conclusion, I suggest that the images we view on websites may
reveal a lot about the photographer - but almost nothing about the
equipment which was used to make the images.

Gene Windell
 
Check this out:

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:LezR6H1vOh8J:www.bythom.com/D70.htm+d70+moire&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Nikon Capture 4.1 will have "Color moire reduction."!

Maybe Nikon knows what's coming and provided fix in NC? Maybe such fix is possible when they know exactly what moire will be like when it happens?

photobug...
Well I don't have PS but only PSE2. So I can only apply Gaussian
blur on everything as I can't find the channels you mentioned. As
expected the Gaussian blur didn't work in curing moire. Maybe
someone with PS can operate on that building image and report back?
I doubt it though...

photobug
  • which is more than can be said for a strong AA filter!
I'd be interested also in the comments of those more knowledgeable
than I.
I doubt that the moire is fixable. That decision was taken with the
nature and type of the AA filter that has been fitted.
Glad to see your post. I just addressed this issue myself in my
post above.
OTOH, I'd sooner fix moire when it occurs than fight with an
overly-aggressive AA
You might have a point. But then, I really don't know how to
address moire myself, as I have yet to encounter it with my
lowly-Oly, crusty, rusty E-20.

How do you fix moire?
Are you listening Nikon?

Do you mind telling us what is the firmware version of your D70 and
when did you get it? What lens was used to shoot those shots?

Thanks.

photobug
just made 2 simple test image between my D70 and an E1 from my
friend, 2 images with original crop.

would like to hear your opinion.

http://www.pbase.com/littlebabylon/test

Rgds
--
Kevin
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
--
markE
pbase supporter

'In wildness lies the preservation of the world.'
-Henry David Thoreau
-Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/marke/gallery/wingsoflight

--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
As I indicated in my original post, I am really out of my depth here, as it is not something I have had to tackle.

I will cross-post to the retouching forum, and see what the gurus have to say, and report back!
Well I don't have PS but only PSE2. So I can only apply Gaussian
blur on everything as I can't find the channels you mentioned. As
expected the Gaussian blur didn't work in curing moire. Maybe
someone with PS can operate on that building image and report back?
I doubt it though...

photobug
  • which is more than can be said for a strong AA filter!
I'd be interested also in the comments of those more knowledgeable
than I.
I doubt that the moire is fixable. That decision was taken with the
nature and type of the AA filter that has been fitted.
Glad to see your post. I just addressed this issue myself in my
post above.
OTOH, I'd sooner fix moire when it occurs than fight with an
overly-aggressive AA
You might have a point. But then, I really don't know how to
address moire myself, as I have yet to encounter it with my
lowly-Oly, crusty, rusty E-20.

How do you fix moire?
Are you listening Nikon?

Do you mind telling us what is the firmware version of your D70 and
when did you get it? What lens was used to shoot those shots?

Thanks.

photobug
just made 2 simple test image between my D70 and an E1 from my
friend, 2 images with original crop.

would like to hear your opinion.

http://www.pbase.com/littlebabylon/test

Rgds
--
Kevin
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
--
markE
pbase supporter

'In wildness lies the preservation of the world.'
-Henry David Thoreau
-Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/marke/gallery/wingsoflight

--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
Not sure if this works with digital cameras or not but I know that
in scanning images, if we encountered moire problems, we would
re-scan rotating the image (45 degrees maybe) to be scanned in
various increments. Sometimes this would work...sometimes not. With
a camera, I don't know if rotating the camera would help.....if you
gauge the shot large enough so you can rotate/crop in photoshop.

Otherwise, a small blur can work, depending on the image. Moire
fixes interest me as I've had to silhouette clothing for an online
catalog before and some of the products (aka silky, pin stripe
shirts) would have serious moire issues in which I couldnt seem to
fix..
You have stirred something deep in my memory - I believe that on occassion the problem may be down to JPEG artifacting, depending on the size of image chosen - I think I am right in saying that sometimes the Nikon JPEG routines are less than perfect?

Anyway, I have cross-posted and (when I get back from the pub) will have a play around in CS and see what can be done.
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
Firstly, I don't own either of these cameras. I am consdering a D70.

My impression of these photos is that the E1 seems superior in many, many I cannot tell the difference and in one the D70 seems better (man in coffee shop). In that image though they are composed, zoomed differently so I doubt my conclusions.
just made 2 simple test image between my D70 and an E1 from my
friend, 2 images with original crop.

would like to hear your opinion.

http://www.pbase.com/littlebabylon/test
In the first pair of images of the cityscape, the Olympus E-1 image
appears to be over-exposed by at least 1/2 f/stop. Both the
highlights (brightest areas) and the shadows (darkest areas) are
uniformly lighter than in the corresponding D70 image. Since the
highlights in the E-1 image are blown-out and the areas which
should be black are not, this exposure can not be described as
anything but over-exposed.

Of course this gives rise to the question about "why" the E-1 image
is over-exposed, but that can't be answered without knowing more
about how the shutter speed and f/stop were determined.

In the second pair of images with the man sitting at the desk, the
lighting of the main subject in both secnes is not equal. In the
D70 image, the man is bent forward in such a way that his face and
shoulders are several inches closer to the main light source -
which apparently is a table lamp. When the light source is this
close to the main subject, just a few inches of variance in
distance can make a big difference. I estimate that in the E-1
image, the man's face and shoulders are receiving about 1 f/stop
less light than in the D70 image.
Thanks for pointing out the differences in exposure settings
between the two cameras, I do agree that it would be difficult to
compare any two cameras without accurate meter readings used to
determine exposure for each, not just setting both cameras to the
same ISO. It's also hard to compare DSLRs in general since each
has its own unique set of in camera processing and levels of in
camera sharpening, the E-1 seeming to be quite low compared to
others. But again, I am impressed with the D70 image quality from
a camera with such a low price. Now if they could just combine
that with a body comparable to the E-1...
Uwe Steinmueller of Outback Photography recently posted 2 galleries
of images which compare images from the Olympus E-1 to the Canon
EOS-1Ds. Except for minor differences in color balance, the images
from both cameras are virtually indistinguishable. Here are the
links:

http://www.jirvana.com/galleries/1ds_gallery_01/index.htm

http://www.jirvana.com/galleries/olympus_e1_03/index.htm

This is really great news for Nikon D70 owners. If the comparison
images by littlebabylon in this thread prove that D70 image quality
is superior to the E-1, by extrapolation it is safe to assume that
D70 image quality is also superior to the Canon 1Ds.
Well...if you read Uwe's post in the News forum regarding his
recent side by side comparisons between the 1Ds and the E-1,

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=7885782

he does state that "Of course the 1Ds delivers more resolution."
Honestly, I think I would be hard pressed to say otherwise. Even
with the compressed web versions in his gallery, I can notice the
difference, even if it is slight.

This just illustrates how the E-1 is in a class by itself, so to
speak. It doesn't have the resolution potential that higher pro
cameras possess, but it exceeds all consumer level DSLRs in build
quailty. It's a kind of middle ground that unfortunately seems to
open it up for all kinds of criticism.
In conclusion, I suggest that the images we view on websites may
reveal a lot about the photographer - but almost nothing about the
equipment which was used to make the images.

Gene Windell
--
Steven Maniscalco
http://www.pbase.com/dazedgonebye
 
How can anyone even consider using these 3 images to evaluate and compare these 2 cameras? I mean, come on:
  • 2 different people doing the shooting.
  • were tripods used?
  • obviously white balances were not the same
  • the crops are not the same
  • the lighting is different in the coffee shop pic
  • what were the in-camera settings?
  • exposures are not the same
and on and on.

Anyone who thinks they can learn anything from these photos - has a lot to learn.
 
Just my 2 cents.

I do own an Olympus, but not an E1. I also am not a photo critic, but here are my feelings.

I feel that the color in photo's 1 & 3 are better reproduced by the E1 even though the E1's exposure seems off (whites are blown out). The colors seem a lot more natural to me. I have never looked at a city and seen a blue tint to it. As for photo 2, the only comment that I can make is the the crop is totally different and the E1 seems a bit soft on focus.

Thanks
Lawrence
just made 2 simple test image between my D70 and an E1 from my
friend, 2 images with original crop.

would like to hear your opinion.

http://www.pbase.com/littlebabylon/test

Rgds
--
Kevin
 
So any aliasing artifact could be prevented by AA filter. Am I right?
I do not kow a lot about this topic, but I tend to agree: moire seems related to aliasing, AA filters (really low pass filters) are the way to prevent it, and editting moire out afterwards probably reqires a lot of manual fiddling, or a smoothing process that loses at least as much resolution as a stronger AA fiter would.
Another reserve I have with comparing images from different cameras
is the difference in default settings of the sharpening level.
Yes, sharpening, noise reduction and various other factors suggest to me that unless the differences in image quality are fairly substantial, comparisons do not tell much.

To someone else's comment: I believe that the D70 was used with a Nikon 35-70 f/2.8, not the D70 kit lens, which is both cheaper and of wider zoom range, so is likely to be less sharp than the 35-70.
 
Really?

Well I don't have PS but only PSE2. So I can only apply Gaussian
blur on everything as I can't find the channels you mentioned. As
expected the Gaussian blur didn't work in curing moire. Maybe
someone with PS can operate on that building image and report back?
I doubt it though...

photobug
It looks like I wasn't a million miles out.
See:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1006&message=7942228
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
Slightly OT but if you get the Hidden Power Tools book by Richard Lynch you can have access to those channels.
Really?

Well I don't have PS but only PSE2. So I can only apply Gaussian
blur on everything as I can't find the channels you mentioned. As
expected the Gaussian blur didn't work in curing moire. Maybe
someone with PS can operate on that building image and report back?
I doubt it though...

photobug
 
I appreciate the efforts these guys are making, because this is a very interesting comparison for me as I am trying to decide my next step and these two cameras and the 10D are competing.

But I concur with BJL some of the pics seem to have quite different exposures, fov, etc. Anything you guys could do to improve the test a bit would be appreciated.

Another comment I want to make is about cost... I have found legit E1s brand new for $1350 which isn't worlds away from the D70. Now comparing lenses is something I can't do yet, What is the cost of a very sharp 28-104(35mm eqv), 2.8-3.5 lens in the Nikon world? How about the cost of the lenses needed to cover 28-400(35mm eqv)? The first Oly lens can be had for about $500 and the two lenses needed to cover that range can be had for about $1350.

Thanks,
just made 2 simple test image between my D70 and an E1 from my
friend, 2 images with original crop.

would like to hear your opinion.
The skyline and billboard shots have poor colour balance in the D70
shots (way too blue); the man in a cafe shot is exposed one stop
less on the E-1 despite the same ISO and so seems underexposed; a
bad mistake with high ISO shots. These might be operator error
rather than camera problems, but they make it very hard to draw
conclusions about the image quality of the cameras themselves.
--
Uzi, E-10, stuff

 

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