EOS metering antiquated?

[Jay Aquino]

It can be unpredictable. But you can take advantage of its quirks.

(a) My favorite metering system is M - centre weighed. Why? Because it behaves consistently.

(b) Evaluative - hate it - but when I use it I just have it in center focus, or some other single point focus mode. Why? Because I want the camera to focus on what I want it too.

(c) ( ) or 9% mode. It can be useful. I like to have black/white boundary bisect the center focus point then press ( ). Works well in tricky exposure situations. My goal is not necessariy a properly exposured image, but one where the exposure is between the cameras boundaries.

Jay

 

[pbleic]

It can be unpredictable. But you can take advantage of its quirks.

(a) My favorite metering system is M - centre weighed. Why? Because
it behaves consistently.

(b) Evaluative - hate it - but when I use it I just have it in
center focus, or some other single point focus mode. Why? Because I
want the camera to focus on what I want it too.

(c) ( ) or 9% mode. It can be useful. I like to have black/white
boundary bisect the center focus point then press ( ). Works well
in tricky exposure situations. My goal is not necessariy a
properly exposured image, but one where the exposure is between the
cameras boundaries.

Jay

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
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[KG50905]

i tried it in a party with 420ex and most of the photos underexposed. this is with no FEC hack and in P-mode. Before that Auto mode gave me cxap.

This week i tried it in outdoors at 10am sunlight to take people with scenic backgrounds (blue sky, 1/300+, f11+, kit lens, P-mode, JPEG due to less space) and many of the photos were SOOFT (this is first time for me) kind of out of focus although leaves, trees looked sharp (like what you get with P&S digicam) and most of them came out with dark blue sky (Canon virus) and thick dark shadows (Canon virus). I have this Canon virus from G1, G2.

This outdoor trip was what I was waiting for to see how it does. Next week I am going to try other meters (Sony)

 

[Jay Aquino]

Another what? A troll, another idiot perhaps?

I make no judgments on you, if you make no judgements on me. I use it the way I like to use it. I didn't say I was frustrated. I certainly get the results I want. Why should your style be any better than mine? Frankly you are too judgementmal. You render judgement on anyone who does not use all the focus points as not knowing how to use the camera.

YES. I know that center point evauative is center point evaluative. I understand how it behaves. I can get the camera to behave the way I want by understanding how the camera behaves.

Knowing full well and understanding how the 7 point thingy works. Used it didn't like it. Too many multiple presses. In crowds and such, I switch to 7 point. In fact, I even switch to the off center focus points on many occassions. I USE ALL THE FEATURES. I just prefer some more than others.

Like the earlier posts said. It all depends on the photog.

Jay

It can be unpredictable. But you can take advantage of its quirks.

(a) My favorite metering system is M - centre weighed. Why? Because
it behaves consistently.

(b) Evaluative - hate it - but when I use it I just have it in
center focus, or some other single point focus mode. Why? Because I
want the camera to focus on what I want it too.

(c) ( ) or 9% mode. It can be useful. I like to have black/white
boundary bisect the center focus point then press ( ). Works well
in tricky exposure situations. My goal is not necessariy a
properly exposured image, but one where the exposure is between the
cameras boundaries.

Jay

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

 

[pbleic]

You read a lot into that, didn't you.

Another one -- another person who hasn't learned evaluative metering well enough to get consistency, but chooses to switch to manual metering rather than taking the time to learn it. Your choice. Your loss.

If you aren't getting consistent metering, you haven't spent enough time with it.

Paul

I make no judgments on you, if you make no judgements on me. I use
it the way I like to use it. I didn't say I was frustrated. I
certainly get the results I want. Why should your style be any
better than mine? Frankly you are too judgementmal. You render
judgement on anyone who does not use all the focus points as not
knowing how to use the camera.

YES. I know that center point evauative is center point evaluative.
I understand how it behaves. I can get the camera to behave the way
I want by understanding how the camera behaves.

Knowing full well and understanding how the 7 point thingy works.
Used it didn't like it. Too many multiple presses. In crowds and
such, I switch to 7 point. In fact, I even switch to the off
center focus points on many occassions. I USE ALL THE FEATURES. I
just prefer some more than others.

Like the earlier posts said. It all depends on the photog.

Jay

It can be unpredictable. But you can take advantage of its quirks.

(a) My favorite metering system is M - centre weighed. Why? Because
it behaves consistently.

(b) Evaluative - hate it - but when I use it I just have it in
center focus, or some other single point focus mode. Why? Because I
want the camera to focus on what I want it too.

(c) ( ) or 9% mode. It can be useful. I like to have black/white
boundary bisect the center focus point then press ( ). Works well
in tricky exposure situations. My goal is not necessariy a
properly exposured image, but one where the exposure is between the
cameras boundaries.

Jay

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

 

[BigMike]

BigMike,

I have a pretty good background with digital cams and understanding
of metering and exposures. I've read the book that Paul suggests
our poster should read and I too highly recommend this book. My
first days with the Rebel were spent trying to understand the
metering system and the metering options. Over time I have
assimilated the information I've read in the forum and read in MANY
articles. Add this to my personal experience with the Rebel and I
agree with you, the metering system is awesome once you understand
it. I'm right now doing the post-processing on the images from a
shoot today and they are 99% dead on! The other 1% I'm within a
half-stop of perfect exposure. While I usually use 7 points, today
i was working with the 100mm f2.8 doing macro work and needed to
use one point for the critical focus required. Understanding the
camera's bias in the metering when 1 target is manually selected, I
made generous use of EC and nailed them all! Like Paul suggests,
NO metering system will produce satisfactory and predictable
exposures it is informed and intuitive PHOTOGRAPHERS who get
satisfactory and predictable exposures.

So, the bottom line: if you are not getting satisfactory and
predictable exposures from your camera, your work on the learning
curve is not finished! If you look through your viewfinder and
take your shot without serious consideration of the metering and
exposure settings, you will NEVER get consistent and predictable
results. Never!

That's what I learned also, Jim. I use to just worry about composition and focus, but I learned that exposure ranks up there with both of them.

 

[Jay Aquino]

Hey it's you that passed judgement on the person instead of the technique.

I am getting consistent metering. But I'm not relying on the evaluative algorithm. So no loss. Your loss maybe - since you rely only the evaluative metering. I only prefer not to use it in 7 point mode.

Maybe you should transcend the automation instead of blind trust. As I said, I know that 7 point E-TTL appears to work better - but I don't like the way it is tied to focus. Since I like to control the actual focus location - "trusting my perception" - I figured out how to control the focus point and still get the right exposure.

I am aware of the camera's stop range. I will knowingly incorrectly expose a shot it means getting all the details in the sensor's stop range. Yes shot in RAW so I can fix it later. This is not always possible I know.

I used to use a Nikon FM2. A fine camera. Still have it in fact. It metered in only one mode (center). Perhaps that is where my preferences towards manual functions come from.

Jay

Another one -- another person who hasn't learned evaluative
metering well enough to get consistency, but chooses to switch to
manual metering rather than taking the time to learn it. Your
choice. Your loss.

If you aren't getting consistent metering, you haven't spent enough
time with it.

Paul

I make no judgments on you, if you make no judgements on me. I use
it the way I like to use it. I didn't say I was frustrated. I
certainly get the results I want. Why should your style be any
better than mine? Frankly you are too judgementmal. You render
judgement on anyone who does not use all the focus points as not
knowing how to use the camera.

YES. I know that center point evauative is center point evaluative.
I understand how it behaves. I can get the camera to behave the way
I want by understanding how the camera behaves.

Knowing full well and understanding how the 7 point thingy works.
Used it didn't like it. Too many multiple presses. In crowds and
such, I switch to 7 point. In fact, I even switch to the off
center focus points on many occassions. I USE ALL THE FEATURES. I
just prefer some more than others.

Like the earlier posts said. It all depends on the photog.

Jay

It can be unpredictable. But you can take advantage of its quirks.

(a) My favorite metering system is M - centre weighed. Why? Because
it behaves consistently.

(b) Evaluative - hate it - but when I use it I just have it in
center focus, or some other single point focus mode. Why? Because I
want the camera to focus on what I want it too.

(c) ( ) or 9% mode. It can be useful. I like to have black/white
boundary bisect the center focus point then press ( ). Works well
in tricky exposure situations. My goal is not necessariy a
properly exposured image, but one where the exposure is between the
cameras boundaries.

Jay

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

 

[Donald Cooper]

Paul,

I just ran into your post about evaluative metering. Very informative. Thanks. I'm looking forward to spending some more time with the article on using evaluative metering. Really great info. How the heck did you find it on the Malay web site?

On the subject of "understanding" the metering. It's funny. When I first got the DREB I spent a lot of time trying to understand it. Now I don't really think much about it. And it is very good and I really don't have any problems.

My only complaint is I'd like to use evaluative and select the AF point in some unusual situations. Other than that it's not a problem though to be truthful I'm not sure what I'm doing differently. Must be an evolutionary thing! LOL

DSC

If you aren't getting consistent metering, you haven't spent enough
time with it.

 

[DWBell]

I think your problems aren't really hinged on the metering methods the camera employs. These sound like fundemental photography issues that can be helped with a few sample pics and a new thread.

Keep shooting.

--
Kind Regards
DWBell

 

[Michael Louis]

for every shot, and I agree with the original poster; fiddling with a random focus arrangment tied to the metering system can be tedious due to the fluctuations. Yet, the OP hit the nail on the head when he originally said this:

"In addition, I don't know if any other DSLR does any better." In this price range, I say NO...so far.
Michael

What annoyed me about this thread are two people who says "After
lots of work, I don't see a difference between 7 focus point and 1
focus point exposure."

I don't give a hoot if you like the EOS metering system. What I
care about is that you somehow assume your "experience" with the
camera is better than dozens of people's reported experience here,
Chuck Westfall's description of the Canon exposure system, the
explanation in the review here at DPreview, and many, many other
places.

Unless you are a true expert in the area, if your experience
differs with all this information, your response should be: Hmm..
perhaps I am not testing this right. Or something of that sort. It
shouldn't be: I'm right and everybody is wrong.

The article I referenced, above, from Malaysia is a phenomenal
description of how and why exposure works with focus points. I
STILL believe you haven't bothered to look at it.

Please tell me that I am wrong - that you read it and still don't
get it. I don't think so.

If, after understanding this and working with it, you STILL think
exposure isn't good enough for you - by all means go to a light
meter. My guess is you have never actually used one along with your
camera. You will find that they are just as prone to being
"fooled" as the one in the camera unless you go right up to the
object you are photographing and read from an area of medium
reflectance. For goodness sakes you can do the same thing with the
camera and the * button.

Is it allowed here to wonder about things, or is EOS a holy shrine?

Not at all, that is the essence of a forum. But it is also allowed
to understand things before one musses about them, or failing that

• learn from the (in some cases considerable) experience of others.

--
Kind Regards
DWBell

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

 

[KG50905]

I also thought I am poor in using the camera and not the meter. But, this time I used Panasonic camcorder and it did excellent meter with no blown blue sky or no underexposed shade. It could be due to the 3-ccd system it has. I have decided to use that as camera also as it is 3.3MP and some users seems to get reasonable prints also.

Can you suggest what to do in 10am sunlight to get proper exposures?

I thought of taking car sunshield to reflect some light on to faces but it looked real bulky.

;-(

 

[pbleic]

Other than that it's not a

problem though to be truthful I'm not sure what I'm doing
differently. Must be an evolutionary thing! LOL

I understand exactly what you mean. I have the same sense/experience.

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

 

[pbleic]

Hey it's you that passed judgement on the person instead of the
technique.

Nobody passed judgement on you. You read this into my post.

I am getting consistent metering. But I'm not relying on the
evaluative algorithm. So no loss. Your loss maybe - since you rely
only the evaluative metering. I only prefer not to use it in 7
point mode.

You obviously don't know my history with the camera, then. Not that you should, but I some of it has appeared in a widely read thread:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=7684360

I was a MAJOR proponent of all manual exposure metering, single focus point with the 300D. Full control and all. I had a long history of film SLRs, starting with a Praktika in my youth which was fully manual. I started, like most, with 7 point focus and got inconsistent results. I read here that most had switched to center focus. So I did. I couldn't get consistent metering in any mode with this, except manual - so I went there.

But, I thought to myself, why would such a successful and well known camera company settle on a metering method for ALL their film and digital SLRs that didn't work? Why was I reading from professional photographers about why they trusted the evaluative metering of their Canon, implicitly. What was I doing wrong.

I searched and learned about how the camera works. I found a great article on the Malaysian Canon site (actually along with a huge collection of excellent articles). Everything pointed to 7 point focus. I tried it again and worked at it.

Once I knew the parameters and how to use it, I found the 7 point/evaluative was pretty easy. Not only that, my exposure metering was unbelievably accurate. I wrote about it and many on the forum, reading the evidence, found the exact same thing. Canon actually did know what they were doing. There metering wasn't "antiquated" it was state of the art. The problem was people who didn't bother to learn how the camera worked.

If you want to use manual exposure metering - great. I respect that. What I don't accept is saying the evaluative metering is "antiquated" without ever having learned it.

Maybe you should transcend the automation instead of blind trust.

As above, I had "transcended." There is no trust. It works really well. I still use manual when I have to adjust metering, although more and more I am using the * button.

I am aware of the camera's stop range. I will knowingly

incorrectly expose a shot it means getting all the details in the
sensor's stop range. Yes shot in RAW so I can fix it later. This
is not always possible I know.

What are you trying to say? You shouldn't be "incorrectly" exposing shots to get all the details in the range. If you are shooting in RAW you don't need to get anything but the best exposure. Why can't you always use RAW?
--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

 

[pbleic]

You use your flash.

I also thought I am poor in using the camera and not the meter.
But, this time I used Panasonic camcorder and it did excellent
meter with no blown blue sky or no underexposed shade. It could be
due to the 3-ccd system it has. I have decided to use that as
camera also as it is 3.3MP and some users seems to get reasonable
prints also.

Can you suggest what to do in 10am sunlight to get proper exposures?
I thought of taking car sunshield to reflect some light on to faces
but it looked real bulky.

;-(

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

 

[patrik_f]

Very funny KG!
From looking at your other posts I conclude that you are being satirical.

I think I have explained enough times that I do understand exposure etc. My objections have to do with unpredictability.

But, of course, as most of you know, the EOS 300D is pretty damn perfect in every sense -and critique, and discussing any drawbacks (imaginary, of course) is therefore unnecessesary (shouldn't be allowed, really).

Regards

i tried it in a party with 420ex and most of the photos
underexposed. this is with no FEC hack and in P-mode. Before that
Auto mode gave me cxap.

This week i tried it in outdoors at 10am sunlight to take people
with scenic backgrounds (blue sky, 1/300+, f11+, kit lens, P-mode,
JPEG due to less space) and many of the photos were SOOFT (this is
first time for me) kind of out of focus although leaves, trees
looked sharp (like what you get with P&S digicam) and most of them
came out with dark blue sky (Canon virus) and thick dark shadows
(Canon virus). I have this Canon virus from G1, G2.

This outdoor trip was what I was waiting for to see how it does.
Next week I am going to try other meters (Sony)

 

[pbleic]

And obvious wit!

Paul

I also thought I am poor in using the camera and not the meter.
But, this time I used Panasonic camcorder and it did excellent
meter with no blown blue sky or no underexposed shade. It could be
due to the 3-ccd system it has. I have decided to use that as
camera also as it is 3.3MP and some users seems to get reasonable
prints also.

Can you suggest what to do in 10am sunlight to get proper exposures?
I thought of taking car sunshield to reflect some light on to faces
but it looked real bulky.

;-(

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

 

[Stan]

...if you follow Sandman's three step exposure strategy:

"Give the 7 points another serious try. Consider the 7 points active as Plan A. And if you do not get a focus lock on your intended subject with the first attempt, move the camera just a tad and try again. I've found that with repeated attempts, the camera seems to try to find another subject. And if Plan A does not work for you, switch to Plan B. With Plan B, manually select a single focus target, but one that is aligned in the frame with your subject. This avoids the problems associated with the focus lock-recompose-shoot (FRS). And finally there is Plan C, manually selecting the center focus point and doing the FRS as needed."

...this takes some extra time. If you take a shot and decide that you'd like to dial in some EC, you need to repeat the abovenoted. If you used multipoint, you need to remember exactly which AF lights were on, and then get the Drebel to use the same exact ones again with your selected EC. More button pressing and waiting to get those LEDs to illuminate.

There are fewer steps and a more intutitive process from some Non-Canon Cameras. I don't believe that it is absolutely necessary to have so many steps in order to get some good exposures on a routine basis. You can work around the characteristics, but I say again, it doesn't need to be like this. It should be okay to point this out without the attack squad coming after you. And if you do question this stuff, it doesn't mean that you are a crummy photographer, haven't read enough or what have you.

Some day, when Canon smooths out the process and makes it more intuitive and user friendly, I's be curious to hear the reaction of those who claim that all is well and nothing at all needs to be changed or updated.

Stan

 

[JThomasLambert]

I'm a Nikon convert and although I do like my DR, I miss the great metering that Nikon had--esp. in those situations when you don't have the time to FEL, etc. and just need to blast off a shot and hope for the best.

Hopefully their new algorithms will make for better cameras in the future.

Why is it that a fev very small highlights can lower the exposure
by several stops, still not being able to correctly expose those
highligths, wheras the sky, filling 25-30% of the viewfinder, is
allowed to be totally blown-out?

I feel less and less confident in the metering system. I might get
a light-meter and go back to automatic metering.

(The reason I complain at all has to do with the quick feedback a
DSLR can give. With film I wouldn't have thought so much about it.)

This is not an attack on Canon, as I admire the company. In
addition, I don't know if any other DSLR does any better.

--

http://www.pbase.com/jthomaslambert

 

[pbleic]

Is what you are referring to... Yes, I think Nikon has it over Canon in flash metering.

I have great hopes for E-TTL II, but not on the 300D.
Paul

Hopefully their new algorithms will make for better cameras in the
future.

Why is it that a fev very small highlights can lower the exposure
by several stops, still not being able to correctly expose those
highligths, wheras the sky, filling 25-30% of the viewfinder, is
allowed to be totally blown-out?

I feel less and less confident in the metering system. I might get
a light-meter and go back to automatic metering.

(The reason I complain at all has to do with the quick feedback a
DSLR can give. With film I wouldn't have thought so much about it.)

This is not an attack on Canon, as I admire the company. In
addition, I don't know if any other DSLR does any better.

--

http://www.pbase.com/jthomaslambert

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

 

[JThomasLambert]

Yep--I guess that's one advantage (??) of the digital cameras. I would have kept my Nikon film bodies for ever but with digital, you're much more "incented" to upgrade every 2 or 3 years. Can't wait to see what will be in store for us then!

I have great hopes for E-TTL II, but not on the 300D.
Paul

Hopefully their new algorithms will make for better cameras in the
future.

Why is it that a fev very small highlights can lower the exposure
by several stops, still not being able to correctly expose those
highligths, wheras the sky, filling 25-30% of the viewfinder, is
allowed to be totally blown-out?

I feel less and less confident in the metering system. I might get
a light-meter and go back to automatic metering.

(The reason I complain at all has to do with the quick feedback a
DSLR can give. With film I wouldn't have thought so much about it.)

This is not an attack on Canon, as I admire the company. In
addition, I don't know if any other DSLR does any better.

--

http://www.pbase.com/jthomaslambert

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

--

http://www.pbase.com/jthomaslambert