Is Film Doomed?

Leonard Leffand

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The other day I was speaking with someone about digital photography. I casually mentioned that in a few years film will probably be close to extinct. Well, I was read the riot act by someone who said "You are shooting with a measly six megapixel camera, when I shoot ISO200 film I am getting effectively 30 megapixels!"

I didn't bother to get into a debate with this guy becuase it really wasn't worth my time. I did get me to thinking that with how quickly sensor resolution is increasing as well as the general pace of technology at what point will film become obsolete?

Will it be 14MP, 20MP, 30MP? I would assume that to some extent film will always be around for special purpose applications. I was wondering what other people think about this subject?

Cheers,

Lenny

--

 
Doomed to what? Film as a consumer product will disappear. Film as a creative medium will stick around as long as people find creative value in using it. Right now we're in a transitional Golden Age. Digital is more than good enough for creative use and vast arrays of films are still easily and cheaply available. Choice is good despite what the film-only and digital-only zealots may think. Enjoy it while it lasts.

-Dave-
 
just give your friend the URL for http://www.luminous-landcape.com

There are some good film vs. digital comparisons there. Your friend is quite mistaken if he thinks ISO 200 gives him 30MP of real data.

To put it simply, chemical based photography is mature. You won't be seeing any large advancements there for a long time. Digital on the other hand is in it's early infancy. I would wager that within 5-10 years, digital will be FAR beyond te capabilities of chemical based film.

The real challange will be finding an output medium that can match what is captured.
The other day I was speaking with someone about digital
photography. I casually mentioned that in a few years film will
probably be close to extinct. Well, I was read the riot act by
someone who said "You are shooting with a measly six megapixel
camera, when I shoot ISO200 film I am getting effectively 30
megapixels!"

I didn't bother to get into a debate with this guy becuase it
really wasn't worth my time. I did get me to thinking that with how
quickly sensor resolution is increasing as well as the general pace
of technology at what point will film become obsolete?

Will it be 14MP, 20MP, 30MP? I would assume that to some extent
film will always be around for special purpose applications. I was
wondering what other people think about this subject?

Cheers,

Lenny

--

 
It will remain around in specialty niche markets. Film never completely eliminated oil & canvas paintings, and digital will never completely eliminate film.

Speaking of walking away from arguments... a couple months ago I was shooting a 40th birthday party for a friend and had someone wave some Canon DV camcorder in my face and declare how digital still cameras were extinct because he could select any video frame as a digital still.

I just smiled and walked away. Not worth the breath trying to educate someone like that.

-- Lew
The other day I was speaking with someone about digital
photography. I casually mentioned that in a few years film will
probably be close to extinct. Well, I was read the riot act by
someone who said "You are shooting with a measly six megapixel
camera, when I shoot ISO200 film I am getting effectively 30
megapixels!"

I didn't bother to get into a debate with this guy becuase it
really wasn't worth my time. I did get me to thinking that with how
quickly sensor resolution is increasing as well as the general pace
of technology at what point will film become obsolete?

Will it be 14MP, 20MP, 30MP? I would assume that to some extent
film will always be around for special purpose applications. I was
wondering what other people think about this subject?

Cheers,

Lenny

--

--
Any DSLR beats unexposed film.
 
In many ways, film is already doomed. Gone. What do I mean? Well, I haven't shot a frame of film in 3 years, and that is a common theme among folks here. And that is only to increase as more and more people go digital.

That said, the most popular cameras in the US are still by far the throw aways. They make decent photos, and are cheap and easy, perfect for many consumers.

I don't think fiml will ever completely go away....perhaps similar to cassette tapes and CDs.

As for film vs. digital for image wuality, I have read different opinions that a 35mm frame is anywhere from 6-30 MP. All I know is this: I have made many a print from film and 6.3 MP digital from 4x6 to 24x36.

My experience has been that from 4x6 to 8x10, there is no distinguishable difference b/w film and digital, and the digital may be better. At 16x20 and up, the digital is superior, vastly superior, to film. Others experience may be different, but that is mine.

Film? Yea, I remember film....

--
Jamie W.

Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants to see us happy. -- Benjamin Franklin
 
When the price of a Better Light scanning back get's down to less than 2 or 3 thousand perhaps the RIP sign will start to be made.
Check out this article about Stephen Johnson.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/nycu/tech/articles/030324/24photos.b1.htm
Leonard Leffand wrote:
The other day I was speaking with someone about digital
photography. I casually mentioned that in a few years film will
probably be close to extinct. Well, I was read the riot act by
someone who said "You are shooting with a measly six megapixel
camera, when I shoot ISO200 film I am getting effectively 30
megapixels!"

I didn't bother to get into a debate with this guy becuase it
really wasn't worth my time. I did get me to thinking that with how
quickly sensor resolution is increasing as well as the general pace
of technology at what point will film become obsolete?

Will it be 14MP, 20MP, 30MP? I would assume that to some extent
film will always be around for special purpose applications. I was
wondering what other people think about this subject?

Cheers,

Lenny

--

 
What advantage(s) are specific to film? In other words, what does film offer that you cannot get from digital?

As of this point, only raw resolution is in film's favor ... and how long will this be true?

Digital is holding every other card.

Game over.

ALS
 
The other day I was speaking with someone about digital
photography. I casually mentioned that in a few years film will
probably be close to extinct. Well, I was read the riot act by
someone who said "You are shooting with a measly six megapixel
camera, when I shoot ISO200 film I am getting effectively 30
megapixels!"

I didn't bother to get into a debate with this guy becuase it
really wasn't worth my time. I did get me to thinking that with how
quickly sensor resolution is increasing as well as the general pace
of technology at what point will film become obsolete?

Will it be 14MP, 20MP, 30MP? I would assume that to some extent
film will always be around for special purpose applications. I was
wondering what other people think about this subject?

Cheers,

Lenny

--

--
http://www.outboundmusic.com
Your link to independent music!
 
I am not going to stop taking slides, and switch to digital and a projector.

For prints digital is excellent, but I have not invested $10.000 in camera equipment to view my pictures in 1024x768 resolution from a projector.

Erik
What advantage(s) are specific to film? In other words, what does
film offer that you cannot get from digital?

As of this point, only raw resolution is in film's favor ... and
how long will this be true?

Digital is holding every other card.

Game over.

ALS
 
Firstly, good 35mm optics general can resolve around 250 line pairs per millimeter, but colour films are generally limited to 50-60lp/mm and even Ektar 25 and Velvia are limited to 80lp/mm.

80lp/mm film is equivalent to 22Mpixels across a 36mm x 24mm frame (most cameras actually give you a bit smaller than that, such as 35mm x 23.8mm). However, colour sensors generally have Bayer filter patterns over the top (while film has layers - like a Foveon sensor), which reduces the effective resolution. So factoring for that with a root 2 multiplier for each dimension (as most of the luminence data comes from the two diagonally opposed green pixels) gives you around 45Mpixels to reach the same resolution limits as above.

When we have cameras with full-frame 40Mpixel sensors, then digital will have reached the resolution of the best transparency film. Of course digital allows you to carry out processing that you can't do with film, so you can enhance the digital data so that you can match film in subjective tests at resolutions much lower than that.

However, back to my subject title. I've recently come to the conclusion that film just isn't good enough! For the last ten years, digital has set its sights on matching film and real-world tests with, say, a 1Ds show that we're about there now.

After shooting some sunsets recently, I got some very nice results, but it wasn't what I saw when I was really there. The dynamic range of the human eye is so great that I could see huge amounts of detail in areas which had become silhouettes in the photos.

This made me realise that until we can achieve a dymanic range that matches the human eye, we're just playing. Digital photography needs to surpass film and try to reach the performance of human vision. Film quality is not the ultimate in imaging, it is just a landmark on the road to human-like dynamic range.

Of course, what I'm asking for is far from trivial. We're not about to carry cameras that contain cryo-coolers to maintain the sensors at close to absolute zero. However, I can see some possible avenues that could allow us to one day reach this level of performance, and I take the human eye as an existence proof that such a system can one day be manufactured.
 
I was convinced this was true too--until I bought a lowly 3MP Olympus 550 point-and-shoot a little over a year ago. I bought the camera just to shoot some pics for ebay and for email, but was stunned when I realized that prints up to 8x10 from this little camera were giving my 35mm SLR a good run for its money. Well, a year and a few months later I have now sold all my 35mm equipment and have a 10D, and am not looking back.

I was confused at first since I had heard that 35mm was equivalent to something like 18-20MPs. But a digital image has a few "unfair" advantages. (1) the pixels are "fuller" and in perfect alignment whereas the "pixels" in film are randomly scattered. This apparently gives digital an edge in efficiently representing an image. (2) With a good sensor like the one in the 10D, for any given ISO, noise is very low compared with grain in an equivalent ISO film. This improves perceived quality. (3) digital images can have complex and mature image manipulation applied to them in camera and in post-process that can quickly address all kinds of issues that have traditionally been harder to deal with in the film world. Primarily, sharpening, and white/color balancing.

So it turns out that with the possible exception of resolution in very big enlargements or under a magnifying glass, good sensors as small as 5MP (Olympus E1) can pretty much equal or exceed 35mm in overall asthetic quality. Many have even claimed that the 10D can produce results competitive with medium format.

Film will almost certainly remain useful for some pros and a variety of niche and scientific uses, but it will probably fade quickly from the mainstream consumer marketplace in just a few years. Meanwhile, the sensors and resolution in the digital world will just continue to improve.

Dave
The other day I was speaking with someone about digital
photography. I casually mentioned that in a few years film will
probably be close to extinct. Well, I was read the riot act by
someone who said "You are shooting with a measly six megapixel
camera, when I shoot ISO200 film I am getting effectively 30
megapixels!"

I didn't bother to get into a debate with this guy becuase it
really wasn't worth my time. I did get me to thinking that with how
quickly sensor resolution is increasing as well as the general pace
of technology at what point will film become obsolete?

Will it be 14MP, 20MP, 30MP? I would assume that to some extent
film will always be around for special purpose applications. I was
wondering what other people think about this subject?

Cheers,

Lenny

--

 
just give your friend the URL for http://www.luminous-landcape.com

There are some good film vs. digital comparisons there. Your
friend is quite mistaken if he thinks ISO 200 gives him 30MP of
real data.
He sure is. It undoubtedly gives far more than that. Don't underestimate film.

On the other hand, don't overestimate your lenses, either. They are the real bottleneck in this equation, not the film. While it's certainly possible to make quality distinctions between different films, most modern emulsions are capable of capturing more data than what's produced by even the best lenses.

It's important to recognize that there is a difference between "human perception" and measureable data. In most cases, any perception of digital as being superior to film is almost entirely based on other factors besides how much data is being captured.

First among these factors is signal to noise ratio. In a digital camera, the "noise" manifests as variations in the image sensor's response to light. The more variations there are and the more greater their magnitude, the "noiser" the image is.

In a film camera, "noise" is the film grain. However, the fact that film grain comes in a variety of sizes, even within the same image, makes it somewhat more difficult to measure in precise terms, as does the fact that grains of film ALSO have some variation in their response to light.

Digital cameras may not capture as much detail as film, but they produce data with an extremely good signal to noise ratio. Part of the reason for this is the fact that they do not capture what would be considered "high frequency" data. That's signal-processing terminology that translates here as fine image detail.

With a digital image sensor, you can only capture fine detail up to a point defined by the image sensor's resolution. Because the size, position, and number of pixels are fixed, the nature of the image sensor acts as a sharp cut-off filter for fine detail, and any detail beyond that point is lost.

With film, the average grain size (and shape) is the limiting factor on how much detail can be captured. But since grain varies a lot in shape and size, there is no hard cut-off point like with digital. Very fine detail does not get filtered out the same way and it can still be captured. On the other hand, the "noise" of the grain also becomes more and more prominent at the same time.

As far as human perception goes, signal to noise ratio is usually more important than ultimate frequency response (the amount of detail being captured). For example, most people would rather watch a clean regular TV signal than a real snowy HDTV signal.

Likewise, unless the difference in image resolution is REALLY obvious, a noise-free digital image will generally be perceived as superior to a somewhat noisier film image, even though the film image may have more detail hidden amongst the noise.

Mike
 
what does film offer that you cannot get from digital?
dynamic range?
That's not quite so clear-cut as you might think.

Yes, it's true that a typical consumer digital camera, or even the various DSLR models, do not capture as wide a range of tones as a good negative film. But some DSLR models come reasonably close.

Aside from that, there are high-end digital backs for medium format or large format cameras that can do much, much better than any film.

But the really telling factor is that today's DSLR cameras are significantly better in this regard than what was available 5-6 years ago. It's not unreasonable to expect that another 6 years from now, things will have improved a bit more in this regard.

Mike
 
Firstly, good 35mm optics general can resolve around 250 line pairs
per millimeter, but colour films are generally limited to
50-60lp/mm and even Ektar 25 and Velvia are limited to 80lp/mm.
Please cite your source.

Any lens tests you've seen that talk about resolving 250 line pairs is almost certainly talking about extremely low contast. At a decent contrast level, you're lucky to get 1/3 of that.

I think your figures for color films are perhaps a bit low, but the real problem is that you've disregarded black and white emulsions, which have MUCH greater resolutions in some cases.

Mike
 
Agreed. But in this case my insides were screaming to correct this guy. He was the lighting director for a dance recital I was shooting at an exclusive private school. I didn't want to rock the boat.

His attitude about digital was unreal. But he did approve of the use of 6MP for "this" application, meaning the recital.

I was hired by the artistic director.

--

 
Actually, I enjoy watching slide shows on my PC with my 19" Samsung Model 191 flat panel monitor. Much more than a slide projector. I can't wait to get the right DVD authoring softwre to create quality DVD slide shows for my television, I have seen them on HDTV screens and the shows are awesome.

--

 

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