Sony 828 or Digital Rebel: Organizing my thoughts...

[tammons]

My impressions are right on and I was shocked at how fast my camera
was. I was expecting a typical sluggish P&S. I have a prostick and
its almost instant. It is as fast as my old fuji S2 was.

Hmm... not sure why the discrepancy here. Our testing with a Pro
stick was very similar to the numbers Phil mentioned. In other
words, it's seemed far from lighting-fast. Oh well. At least you
were getting performance much better than you anticipated.

The F828 is supposed to be MUCH faster still, so that's a good
thing to know.

My camera has a memory stick pro sticker on the side, its new, so maybe they upgraded the firmware.

and since my 717 carries almost as much detail as my 10D, (no
kidding, I could not believe it)I think the 828 images will wow a
lot of people. If the 828 is generally in the same ballpark quality
wise as the 717 with 3 extra mp of info and a clean image, it will
produce a sharper and more detailed image than a 10D.

Oh, I'm with you there. There is simply something to be said for
packing a lot of data via the high-megapixel approach. I have no
doubt that the sheer resolution of this F828 is going to be a real
surprise to many. It's not just marketing. Sometimes lots of
pixels really pack a lot of punch. Sony tends to do a lot with even
the small photosite size.

You should see the halo effects from a SD9. Yikes.

I guess I never looked for it on the SD9 images. But couldn't the
RAW converter program help out here? Couldn't the amount of JPEG
compression be customized so as to eliminate the halos?

Its a different type of halo. It is not from sharpening. It blows out a channel and leaves you with blue halos around reflections. The software helps, but its a very sensitive camera. Bad about sky overexposures too. Actually my 10D is about the same with skys. If you expose for a nice blue sky with minor clipping, the forground is pretty dark. Very difficult to balance. My S2 did a much better job. Also my 717 does a better job with exposures too.

I dont think the 828 raw images are going to be as soft as you
think, but it depends on how aggresive the AA filter is.

Oh, I don't want soft images per se. That's not what I'm expecting.
What I'm saying is that Sony has ALWAYS (since the days of the
original F505) taken a hit from folks who specifically didn't like
its images for being overly aggressive in compression and
artifacts. I think the F828 is going to minimize these and allay
those concerns. And having RAW will give an even greater tool for
controlling that type of thing.

This new 828 camera is sounding pretty good and after stuggling with my 10D all day, trying to get a good exposure, I am almost ready to ebay it and wait on the 828. Also I am really frustrated that nobody is making a full frame 6mp camera. Maybe in the new crop of Dslrs.

--

Ulysses

 

[John Lai]

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=5917159

John

I know that the F828 might perform better than the F717 regarding
noise but it will probably not even come close to the 300D, which
has the same sensor as the 10D.

NOT likely!!! I would be very very impressed if it was even equal
to the F717 regarding noise! Most other digicams, who have
increased their pixel count have also increased noise. The G5 has
more noise than the G3. The 5 megapixel Olympus 5050 has more
noise than its 4 megapixel predacessor ....

 

[sej1001]

Yes, but is any camera what you want, or a bandaid? The camera companies are good at making bandaids. Especially Canon, they make a new one about every 6 months. They all know the basic combinations of features we want and they all could make it. There are always a few irritants in the bandaid to keep the wound from healing. And trust me, I feel your pain, yea...I relate.

Steve J.

Excellent job expressing your thoughts and your process, Travis. I
have a feeling you won't be done in this regard even after this
much thought out post.

I have a very important question, with others to follow:

Is the Canon 300D the dSLR that you want?

Do you want it because it is below the $1000 magic price point?

Does the 300D do things that you do NOT care for?

If the above question is true, would you wait for the $999 dSLR
that did the things you want?

If the 300D is only a bandaid for what ails you, then when would
expect to sell the 300D?

Nothing is ever easy.

For myself, I'm trying to figure out whether I want to buy the 300D
simply because it's the option that is available or if it's because
I really like the camera. There are other options coming down the
road, and the 300D is merely the first of its kind for a brand new
market being created. I still have some things to think about. I'm
not committed either way just yet.

--

Ulysses

 

[Ulysses]

My camera has a memory stick pro sticker on the side, its new, so
maybe they upgraded the firmware.

Interesting. I had thought it unlikely, but since you now mention it, what is the manufactur date on your camera (bottom of the LCD body)?

Also my 717 does a better job with exposures too.

Aww, yeah. The F717 has always exposed beautifully.

This new 828 camera is sounding pretty good and after stuggling
with my 10D all day, trying to get a good exposure, I am almost
ready to ebay it and wait on the 828.

This is almost refreshing to hear.

The pendulum always swings back the other way. Yesterday, there was all of this mesmerized awe of the 300D. Today, the F828 is the Golden Child again. Heheheheheheh...

--

Ulysses

 

[Travis]

My camera has a memory stick pro sticker on the side, its new, so
maybe they upgraded the firmware.

The 717 that I returned a few days ago also had the Memory Stick pro sticker on it and my experience was around 2 seconds start-up as well. I can't remember the exact month of production, but I know it was only several months ago.

Travis

 

[Kevin H]

3) Lens flexibility...>

Lens flexibility is the heart of my personal debate. It's what gives us ultimate control over DOF. Remember, you're buying into a system so you're collecting glass that you will keep. You sell the body, not your lenses. Just something to think about when getting the Rebel with the two packaged lenses. Maybe add on top the 28-135 IS USM lens? That's a keeper (even though not L). Sell the kit but keep that lens.

Also keep in mind right now these DSLR's are HUGE compared to what we have. Extra lenses to carry, not to mention the size of the camera body! Even the Rebel, which will be the smallest version so far, will weigh over 2 pounds with the 28-135 lens and battery (add em up, they're listed separately). The Sony will weigh less. Backpack that for a day!!

Which one do I want - Sony or Canon? I, too, stradle that fence.

K
--
http://home.comcast.net/~khilleg/Columbia_Gorge_Waterfalls.htm

 

[tammons]

My camera has a memory stick pro sticker on the side, its new, so
maybe they upgraded the firmware.

Interesting. I had thought it unlikely, but since you now mention
it, what is the manufactur date on your camera (bottom of the LCD
body)?

BTW the sticker was on the barrel.
May 2003

Also my 717 does a better job with exposures too.

Aww, yeah. The F717 has always exposed beautifully.

And that is what is killing me about my 10D. My $640 717 take better exposed pictures with almost as much detail as my 10D. I am not very happy with cannon. I guess if I mortaged my condo and bought a 1ds I would be happy until I dropped it. I cant imagine running around with a 8G camera around my neck.

This new 828 camera is sounding pretty good and after stuggling
with my 10D all day, trying to get a good exposure, I am almost
ready to ebay it and wait on the 828.

This is almost refreshing to hear.

The pendulum always swings back the other way. Yesterday, there
was all of this mesmerized awe of the 300D. Today, the F828 is the
Golden Child again. Heheheheheheh...

I am not mezmerized by the 300D. Its just a crippled 10D and as you can tell I am not exactly elated with that camera. Its a cheap 6mp camera built to suck a lot of people in so canon can dominate the dslr market.The Sony people that jump to buy that camera will probably be back. Actually I have not done backflips over any of my cameras. The S2 was getting pretty close. The SD9 was terrible but overall very sharp. My 10D is slow, fuzzy, and overexposure is very difficult on exterior bright days and still it takes between $800-$2000 in lenses to match what is on the 828. Besides that I am still waitng on a full frame consumer dslr camera and the way it looks now it will never make it to market, except for maybe Fuji.

--

Ulysses

 

[tammons]

I just checked my camera again and it starts up in less than a scond. I am using a sandisk magic gate memory stick pro 256mb. I also timed it with the 32mb card that came with the camera which is not a memory stick pro and its just as fast. I am beginning to wonder if they upgraded the processor on some of these later 717 cameras. Maybe they threw in the 828 processor as a trial run.

My camera has a memory stick pro sticker on the side, its new, so
maybe they upgraded the firmware.

The 717 that I returned a few days ago also had the Memory Stick
pro sticker on it and my experience was around 2 seconds start-up
as well. I can't remember the exact month of production, but I
know it was only several months ago.

Travis

 

[Ulysses]

This is VERY interesting (and I'm assuming you don't live in a parallel universe where there is some sort of time compression going on, right? Heheheh)

I wouldn't have expected any newer firmware in a May 2003 edition of the camera, but I guess it can't be ruled out. I can't help but wonder if we have any other cameras made after this date that also report the faster times that you do.

I just checked my camera again and it starts up in less than a
scond. I am using a sandisk magic gate memory stick pro 256mb. I
also timed it with the 32mb card that came with the camera which is
not a memory stick pro and its just as fast. I am beginning to
wonder if they upgraded the processor on some of these later 717
cameras. Maybe they threw in the 828 processor as a trial run.

--

Ulysses

 

[Travis]

I just checked my camera again and it starts up in less than a
scond. I am using a sandisk magic gate memory stick pro 256mb. I
also timed it with the 32mb card that came with the camera which is
not a memory stick pro and its just as fast. I am beginning to
wonder if they upgraded the processor on some of these later 717
cameras. Maybe they threw in the 828 processor as a trial run.

Are you timing this from the moment you press the level to the time you are able to take a photo (the live preview appears)? If so, then I'd hold onto that 717 as it appears to be a unique model! ;-)

Travis

 

[Rich_S]

Interesting. The 28-135mm zoom is a popular lens for the 10D but it is 2 ½ stops slower than the F717 at full zoom (F5.6 vs F2.4). So I mentally shifted the F717 line on the graph 2 stops to the right (since to keep the same shutter speed you’d have to bump up the 10D ISO 2 stops). If you do that you see that the F717 (and I hope the F828) have the same noise at ISO 100 for the F717 and ISO 400 for the 10D. The 10D does pull ahead at higher ISOs though. When you shift the F717 line, it matches up to the D60 line pretty well.

So it seems to me that to really take advantage of the 10D/300D low noise you have to invest in big, heavy and expensive lenses. Or, you could look at it another way, and say that you can get by with slower lenses on the 10D/300D since you have noise margin to burn.
Rich

One thing that really could persuade me to buy the 300D over the
F828 (or A1) would be the lower noise of the 300D. It is not that I
mind the noise at ISO100 on the F717 but the option of having a
usable ISO 800/1600 is really compelling. Below I put the luminance
noise graph (from this site) of the F717 and 10D on top of each
other to see the difference.



I know that the F828 might perform better than the F717 regarding
noise but it will probably not even come close to the 300D, which
has as ththe same sensor e 10D.
I will probably end up buying the F828 because I like the swivel
body a lot.
--
http://www.thomas.photoshare.co.nz/
DSC-F717

 

[tammons]

Yes it is fast. As fast as my Fuji S2 was and blows my 10D away. I am kindof wondering if my camera and the future 717 cameras are going to get a 828 engine.

I am going to start another thread to see if I can find any other fast 717 owners out there so jump in.

I wouldn't have expected any newer firmware in a May 2003 edition
of the camera, but I guess it can't be ruled out. I can't help but
wonder if we have any other cameras made after this date that also
report the faster times that you do.

I just checked my camera again and it starts up in less than a
scond. I am using a sandisk magic gate memory stick pro 256mb. I
also timed it with the 32mb card that came with the camera which is
not a memory stick pro and its just as fast. I am beginning to
wonder if they upgraded the processor on some of these later 717
cameras. Maybe they threw in the 828 processor as a trial run.

--

Ulysses

 

[James Davison]

I just bought a 10D but I'm keeping my F717 'cause I can carry it almost everywhere.

3) Lens flexibility...>

Lens flexibility is the heart of my personal debate. It's what
gives us ultimate control over DOF. Remember, you're buying into a
system so you're collecting glass that you will keep. You sell the
body, not your lenses. Just something to think about when getting
the Rebel with the two packaged lenses. Maybe add on top the
28-135 IS USM lens? That's a keeper (even though not L). Sell the
kit but keep that lens.

Also keep in mind right now these DSLR's are HUGE compared to what
we have. Extra lenses to carry, not to mention the size of the
camera body! Even the Rebel, which will be the smallest version so
far, will weigh over 2 pounds with the 28-135 lens and battery (add
em up, they're listed separately). The Sony will weigh less.
Backpack that for a day!!

Which one do I want - Sony or Canon? I, too, stradle that fence.

K
--
http://home.comcast.net/~khilleg/Columbia_Gorge_Waterfalls.htm

 

[timpdx]

I am in the same boat concerning these two cameras, thanks for all of the discussion. Both these cameras will have much to offer, and I am sure after buying one, that I will miss features and such offered by the other. I simply might be in the market for a camera sooner than Sony will offer the 828 ( a work project invoving alot of portraits). If that doesn't come through, then I will back to the dilemna that many people here are in, 828 vs B300.

--
http://www.pixelmap.com