What Does "Tonality" Mean?

[feivel]

It's one of the most commonly used terms used here. I have probably used it myself, but it occurs to me that i don't know what it means.

I also wonder if, among the people who do know what it means, does it mean the same thing to each of them?

feivel

 

[EarlRutherford]

I have always thought of tonality as the overall tonal range of prints. Prints that have good shadow, midtone and highlight details come to mind, although an early morning fog/mist picture could also have a good tonality, just a much smaller range of darks to lights. Interesting question. Hope you get other responses.

EArl

It's one of the most commonly used terms used here. I have
probably used it myself, but it occurs to me that i don't know what
it means.
I also wonder if, among the people who do know what it means, does
it mean the same thing to each of them?

feivel

 

[Kent C]

It's one of the most commonly used terms used here. I have
probably used it myself, but it occurs to me that i don't know what
it means.
I also wonder if, among the people who do know what it means, does
it mean the same thing to each of them?

The way I would use it would be to describe 'saturation' and 'brightness' in general - where increasing tone would involve either increasing saturation or brightness or both and decreasing just the opposite. Or one could speak of tonality with the balance between the lightness and darkness of an image.

With respect to temperature, 'hue' is the main aspect, as in warm or cool tone.

--
Kent
http://www.pbase.com/kentc

 

[feivel]

I have always thought of tonality as the overall tonal range of
prints.

But what is tonal range? What is tone? From the "tone" of your answer I'm guessing you feel it is related to the presence of a balanced range of "brightness", perhaps exemplified by a histogram that has significant peaks across the whole x-axis.
dictionary.com defines it as the "hue" or "tint" or "shade" of color.
But we use it for grayscale images as well.

so is TONE synonymous with BRIGHTNESS?

feivel

 

[feivel]

The way I would use it would be to describe 'saturation' and
'brightness' in general - where increasing tone would involve
either increasing saturation or brightness or both and decreasing
just the opposite. Or one could speak of tonality with the balance
between the lightness and darkness of an image.

With respect to temperature, 'hue' is the main aspect, as in warm
or cool tone.

--
Kent
http://www.pbase.com/kentc

so combining the responses of earl and kent (the Earl of Kent?)

we have the variation of lightness, brightness (i believe they are not the same), and if color is involved, hue and saturation as well.

so maybe tonality is the overall distribution of ALL pixel parameters?

feivel

 

[Chuck Gardner]

From the dictionary: "The scheme or interrelation of the color tones in a painting." Also, in the context of music: "A system of seven tones built on a tonic key. Arrangement of all the tones and chords of a musical composition in relationship to the tonic."

Transliterating the musical definition into the photographic realm, I would define tonality as "the arrangement of tones (reflectance values) in a photo in relationship to its intended center of interest."

The eye is naturally drawn to the brightest object in the field of view. If the brightest object in the photo is not the center of interest, it will draw the viewer's eye away from the center of interest and diminish the visual impact of the photo. For example a bright patch of sky in a landscape will draw the viewer's eye up and out of the frame. That is why I think dark mats are an important component of any photo, because they help keep the eye in the photo by virture of the border and the balancing negative space which reduces the relative size (and attractiveness) of the sky.

After finding the brightest object in the frame the veiwer's eye will then search for the next lightest, and so on. By changing the tonal relationship of objects in the frame to each other, you can control, in a relatively predictable manner, the order in which the viewer will discover them. Thus, if you want the viewer to find an secondary center of interest but don't want competing centers of interest fighting for attention you'd make the primary COI the brightest object in the frame and the secondary object the next brightest.

There are many other factors such as color and leading lines which influence how a view's eye travels in a photo, but in all cases the objective is to isolate and simplify the primary center of interest and lead the viewer's eye there first.

Chuck Gardner

It's one of the most commonly used terms used here. I have
probably used it myself, but it occurs to me that i don't know what
it means.
I also wonder if, among the people who do know what it means, does
it mean the same thing to each of them?

feivel

 

[Kent C]

I have always thought of tonality as the overall tonal range of
prints.

But what is tonal range? What is tone?

And another question you could ask Earl is what is 'good'? ... when he says:

"Prints that have good shadow, midtone and highlight details come to mind, although an early morning fog/mist picture could also have a good tonality"

From the "tone" of your
answer I'm guessing you feel it is related to the presence of a
balanced range of "brightness", perhaps exemplified by a histogram
that has significant peaks across the whole x-axis.
dictionary.com defines it as the "hue" or "tint" or "shade" of color.
But we use it for grayscale images as well.

so is TONE synonymous with BRIGHTNESS?

That's Your conclusion And later you differentiate 'lightness' and 'brightness' - what's the difference there, iyo?

--
Kent
http://www.pbase.com/kentc

 

[feivel]

,

I would define tonality as "the arrangement of tones (reflectance
values) in a photo in relationship to its intended center of
interest."

so you would define tonality in reference to the intended center of interest?
and tones as reflectance values.
what are reflectance values? brightness? whiteness? lightness?

feivel

 

[feivel]

.

so is TONE synonymous with BRIGHTNESS?

That's Your conclusion And later you differentiate 'lightness'
and 'brightness' - what's the difference there, iyo?

--
Kent
http://www.pbase.com/kentc

it's not my conclusion, it's a hypothesis.

what's the diff between lighness and brightness? I don't know, but VG or Philo or ZMR once said that there IS a difference.

feivel

 

[P Sexton]

I think you've asked an excellent question to which I do not have an answer. The responses are beginning to sound like responses to the question What is art?

,

I would define tonality as "the arrangement of tones (reflectance
values) in a photo in relationship to its intended center of
interest."

so you would define tonality in reference to the intended center of
interest?
and tones as reflectance values.
what are reflectance values? brightness? whiteness? lightness?

feivel

 

[feivel]

I think you've asked an excellent question to which I do not have
an answer.

Thank you P

The responses are beginning to sound like responses to
the question What is art?

I had a suspicion that was the case.

feivel

 

[Chuck Gardner]

Whoops, slipped into Zone System jargon, which describes scenes and prints in terms of reflectance. Density values such as the .9, 1.8 etc. used for neutral density filters are based on the log (base 10 of the ratio of reflected light and transmitted light: density = log(I / R)

Its easy to see and measure the difference in tone in B&W subjects in terms of density. In color photography I'd venture to say that a "tone" would be any perceived difference in brightness or color which makes an object more attractive For example, if there are red and green objects of equal brightness most people will be attracted to the red before the green.

How ever you define it, the indended center of interest should be the most attractive thing in the frame and distracting elements should be

,

I would define tonality as "the arrangement of tones (reflectance
values) in a photo in relationship to its intended center of
interest."

so you would define tonality in reference to the intended center of
interest?
and tones as reflectance values.
what are reflectance values? brightness? whiteness? lightness?

feivel

 

[feivel]

How ever you define it, the indended center of interest should be
the most attractive thing in the frame and distracting elements
should be

well chuck, i get your idea now.

just have to disagree on one point: you state that distracting elements should be, I say they shouldn't be.

feivel

 

[EarlRutherford]

I don't think so feival, they usually

(grin) Earl

How ever you define it, the indended center of interest should be
the most attractive thing in the frame and distracting elements
should be

well chuck, i get your idea now.
just have to disagree on one point: you state that distracting
elements should be, I say they shouldn't be.

feivel

 

[feivel]

(grin) Earl

How ever you define it, the indended center of interest should be
the most attractive thing in the frame and distracting elements
should be

well chuck, i get your idea now.
just have to disagree on one point: you state that distracting
elements should be, I say they shouldn't be.

feivel

 

[Phil Rose]

I have always thought of tonality as the overall tonal range of
prints.

But what is tonal range? What is tone? From the "tone" of your
answer I'm guessing you feel it is related to the presence of a
balanced range of "brightness", perhaps exemplified by a histogram
that has significant peaks across the whole x-axis.
dictionary.com defines it as the "hue" or "tint" or "shade" of color.
But we use it for grayscale images as well.

Sure it can still mean hue/tint/shade even for monochrome (grayscale) images. These do not necessarily reproduce with neutral tones--the shades of "gray" can be rendered as warm (yellow/brown) or "cold" (blue-black) and anything in between. Have you ever seen an Edward S. Curtis "Orotone" print? They are monochrome images with a stunning golden hue created by a gold/oil coating (gold powder in banana oil) applied to the back of his glass-plate images.

so is TONE synonymous with BRIGHTNESS?

Not necessarily just brightness. The term "tonality" --what you originally asked about--means (to me, at least) anything "pertaining to tone".

So--issues of tonality can encompass variations in the range (light to dark) of shades , the contrast, hues (deviating from neutral),...
Phil

 

[feivel]

I have always thought of tonality as the overall tonal range of
prints.

But what is tonal range? What is tone? From the "tone" of your
answer I'm guessing you feel it is related to the presence of a
balanced range of "brightness", perhaps exemplified by a histogram
that has significant peaks across the whole x-axis.
dictionary.com defines it as the "hue" or "tint" or "shade" of color.
But we use it for grayscale images as well.

Sure it can still mean hue/tint/shade even for monochrome
(grayscale) images. These do not necessarily reproduce with neutral
tones--the shades of "gray" can be rendered as warm (yellow/brown)
or "cold" (blue-black) and anything in between. Have you ever seen
an Edward S. Curtis "Orotone" print? They are monochrome images
with a stunning golden hue created by a gold/oil coating (gold
powder in banana oil) applied to the back of his glass-plate images.

these images are not GRAYSCALE, they are color images, albeit the color is monochrome or duotone and subdued, you are still talking COLOR, not grayscale

so is TONE synonymous with BRIGHTNESS?

Not necessarily just brightness. The term "tonality" --what you
originally asked about--means (to me, at least) anything
"pertaining to tone".

the definition is not a definition. it's like saying happiness is anything pertaining to being happy.

So--issues of tonality can encompass variations in the range
(light to dark) of shades , the contrast, hues (deviating from
neutral),...

again it sounds like it can encomass anything. if it is to have some specific meaning, it must exclude something at least.

Phil

 

[William Wilgus]

In reference to color, it simply means "the [set of] characteristics of color". Example: "The sky exhibits tonality."

In reference to an image, it means the color scheme, or system of tones or tints, of the image.

Tonality is often improperly used in place of "tone".

Hue, brightness and saturation are the most commonly referred to characterists of a tone.

Willaim

It's one of the most commonly used terms used here. I have
probably used it myself, but it occurs to me that i don't know what
it means.
I also wonder if, among the people who do know what it means, does
it mean the same thing to each of them?

feivel

 

[William Wilgus]

and therefore have a tone and exhibit tonality.

William

I have always thought of tonality as the overall tonal range of
prints.

But what is tonal range? What is tone? From the "tone" of your
answer I'm guessing you feel it is related to the presence of a
balanced range of "brightness", perhaps exemplified by a histogram
that has significant peaks across the whole x-axis.
dictionary.com defines it as the "hue" or "tint" or "shade" of color.
But we use it for grayscale images as well.

Sure it can still mean hue/tint/shade even for monochrome
(grayscale) images. These do not necessarily reproduce with neutral
tones--the shades of "gray" can be rendered as warm (yellow/brown)
or "cold" (blue-black) and anything in between. Have you ever seen
an Edward S. Curtis "Orotone" print? They are monochrome images
with a stunning golden hue created by a gold/oil coating (gold
powder in banana oil) applied to the back of his glass-plate images.

these images are not GRAYSCALE, they are color images, albeit the
color is monochrome or duotone and subdued, you are still talking
COLOR, not grayscale

so is TONE synonymous with BRIGHTNESS?

Not necessarily just brightness. The term "tonality" --what you
originally asked about--means (to me, at least) anything
"pertaining to tone".

the definition is not a definition. it's like saying happiness is
anything pertaining to being happy.

So--issues of tonality can encompass variations in the range
(light to dark) of shades , the contrast, hues (deviating from
neutral),...

again it sounds like it can encomass anything. if it is to have
some specific meaning, it must exclude something at least.

Phil

 

[feivel]

In reference to color, it simply means "the [set of]
characteristics of color". Example: "The sky exhibits tonality."

In reference to an image, it means the color scheme, or system of
tones or tints, of the image.

Tonality is often improperly used in place of "tone".

Hue, brightness and saturation are the most commonly referred to
characterists of a tone.

Willaim

If I may William, to summarize, if someone states: "the first thing I examine when evaluating an image for retouching is the tonality.", he means that he examines all the various aspects of the color of the image. thiswould be hue, saturation, brightness, and contrast. So what is one NOT referring to when mentioning tonality, it would seem to include everything, and his statement would be: "the first thing i examine when evaluating an image is everything"
i think we need some more work here.

feivel