Thom Hogan"Will We Get..."

[Vince P]

1. jjz2 wrote:

a Z90 is nice to have. But exactly what lenses are we going to use with this high performance DX body? There is no high performance DX Z lenses to speak of right now.

A big one would be the 400mm 4.5

or maybe adapted 500mm pf

Now you've got equivalent to a 600mm/750mm prime lens and the features of a Z9 without the cost. And if that's all you're doing, which, I know many people do primarily wild life or birds, FF is not necessary.

and not too much weight to get even longer lenses.

Popular with birders and such.

It might be but it would only make sense if birders and such who bought one wouldn't have ponied up for a Z8 or Z9 to use with those lenses. Nikon has the data. They had the D500. When the D850 came out sales of the D500 and the better DX lenses fell off a cliff and many got traded in for D850s. That's also what I did, even if you always crop to DX or smaller (most won't always if given a choice) then having a bigger starting image from which to chose the composition is still an advantage.

Z cameras are even better in this regard because on DSLRS the subject pretty much needed to be in the DX centre in order to focus.

 

[chambeshi]

1. jjz2 wrote:

a Z90 is nice to have. But exactly what lenses are we going to use with this high performance DX body? There is no high performance DX Z lenses to speak of right now.

A big one would be the 400mm 4.5

or maybe adapted 500mm pf

Now you've got equivalent to a 600mm/750mm prime lens and the features of a Z9 without the cost. And if that's all you're doing, which, I know many people do primarily wild life or birds, FF is not necessary.

and not too much weight to get even longer lenses.

Popular with birders and such.

It might be but it would only make sense if birders and such who bought one wouldn't have ponied up for a Z8 or Z9 to use with those lenses. Nikon has the data. They had the D500. When the D850 came out sales of the D500 and the better DX lenses fell off a cliff and many got traded in for D850s.

Nikon kept on selling the D500 steadily, even though the total may well have dropped

The D500 was an excellent package to sell more of the core D5 technology, besides selling FX glass, including the 70-200's, 70-300's, 300 PF, 500 PF and 200-500 f5.6E among many other models.

The D500 was and still is an extremely popular camera in southern Africa, where a replacement is impatiently awaited.... The retailers report this to Dubai > Singapore > Tokyo

That's also what I did, even if you always crop to DX or smaller (most won't always if given a choice) then having a bigger starting image from which to chose the composition is still an advantage.

D850 and Z8 are too expensive - also too big / heavy - for the majority of Nikon customers outside N America and some countries in W Europe

Asia is now Nikon's biggest market

Z cameras are even better in this regard because on DSLRS the subject pretty much needed to be in the DX centre in order to focus.

After approx 3 years on the market, late June 2019, the D500 is listed at 110759 copies. The last few months of sales will already have overlapped the first year of Z7 and Z6 sales and Z MILC lenses (selling since October 2018).

Currently, despite the shrinking DSLR sales, the early 2025 total is 227532 D500 - an increase of 116773 registered since June 2019 alongside the best selling D850, plus Z cameras.

Interesting to note D850 sales increased to 363560 since June 2019, with only 73,967+ registered already 2 years after its shipping began in late 2017. However, there were big order backlogs of the D850 over the first year and longer. This is expected, Nikon has stated officially how the D850 has been one of their best selling ILCs overall.

Obviously, these statistics are incomplete global totals, which will be significantly higher considering huge geographical gaps and the overall rate of underreporting to Roland's database.

Nonetheless, whatever the attempts at denials and excuses, it's beyond doubt both the D500 and D850 sold the D5 AF and related technology very well indeed for Nikon Imaging. We also need to consider how sales of these Pro cameras will have pushed up the Lens: Camera tie ratio, and biased towards increased telephoto sales.

Anyone who believes the D500 is not a Nikon success has to produce the evidence.

https://nikonrumors.com/2019/06/26/nikon-dslr-camera-sales-figures-estimations.aspx/

 

[Vince P]

1. jjz2 wrote:

a Z90 is nice to have. But exactly what lenses are we going to use with this high performance DX body? There is no high performance DX Z lenses to speak of right now.

A big one would be the 400mm 4.5

or maybe adapted 500mm pf

Now you've got equivalent to a 600mm/750mm prime lens and the features of a Z9 without the cost. And if that's all you're doing, which, I know many people do primarily wild life or birds, FF is not necessary.

and not too much weight to get even longer lenses.

Popular with birders and such.

It might be but it would only make sense if birders and such who bought one wouldn't have ponied up for a Z8 or Z9 to use with those lenses. Nikon has the data. They had the D500. When the D850 came out sales of the D500 and the better DX lenses fell off a cliff and many got traded in for D850s.

Nikon kept on selling the D500 steadily, even though the total may well have dropped

The D500 was an excellent package to sell more of the core D5 technology, besides selling FX glass, including the 70-200's, 70-300's, 300 PF, 500 PF and 200-500 f5.6E among many other models.

The D500 was and still is an extremely popular camera in southern Africa, where a replacement is impatiently awaited.... The retailers report this to Dubai > Singapore > Tokyo

That's also what I did, even if you always crop to DX or smaller (most won't always if given a choice) then having a bigger starting image from which to chose the composition is still an advantage.

D850 and Z8 are too expensive - also too big / heavy - for the majority of Nikon customers outside N America and some countries in W Europe

Asia is now Nikon's biggest market

Z cameras are even better in this regard because on DSLRS the subject pretty much needed to be in the DX centre in order to focus.

After approx 3 years on the market, late June 2019, the D500 is listed at 110759 copies. The last few months of sales will already have overlapped the first year of Z7 and Z6 sales and Z MILC lenses (selling since October 2018).

Currently, despite the shrinking DSLR sales, the early 2025 total is 227532 D500 - an increase of 116773 registered since June 2019 alongside the best selling D850, plus Z cameras.

Interesting to note D850 sales increased to 363560 since June 2019, with only 73,967+ registered already 2 years after its shipping began in late 2017. However, there were big order backlogs of the D850 over the first year and longer. This is expected, Nikon has stated officially how the D850 has been one of their best selling ILCs overall.

Obviously, these statistics are incomplete global totals, which will be significantly higher considering huge geographical gaps and the overall rate of underreporting to Roland's database.

Nonetheless, whatever the attempts at denials and excuses, it's beyond doubt both the D500 and D850 sold the D5 AF and related technology very well indeed for Nikon Imaging. We also need to consider how sales of these Pro cameras will have pushed up the Lens: Camera tie ratio, and biased towards increased telephoto sales.

Anyone who believes the D500 is not a Nikon success has to produce the evidence.

https://nikonrumors.com/2019/06/26/nikon-dslr-camera-sales-figures-estimations.aspx/

It was a huge success but Nikon have explicitly said, many times, that sales "Fell off a cliff once the D850 was launched. I don't think it's in dispute

More relevant is what the same people say when asked about a potential high end DX camera in public. There is a standard answer, to any question about any future products and that's "We can't comment on any unannounced future products." They nearly always caveat that, when talking about a high end DX model by adding that "Those calling for them may be overestimating the actual demand." Once may be irrelevant but it' s happened often enough and from enough people that it seems like messaging.

 

[chambeshi]

1. jjz2 wrote:

a Z90 is nice to have. But exactly what lenses are we going to use with this high performance DX body? There is no high performance DX Z lenses to speak of right now.

A big one would be the 400mm 4.5

or maybe adapted 500mm pf

Now you've got equivalent to a 600mm/750mm prime lens and the features of a Z9 without the cost. And if that's all you're doing, which, I know many people do primarily wild life or birds, FF is not necessary.

and not too much weight to get even longer lenses.

Popular with birders and such.

It might be but it would only make sense if birders and such who bought one wouldn't have ponied up for a Z8 or Z9 to use with those lenses. Nikon has the data. They had the D500. When the D850 came out sales of the D500 and the better DX lenses fell off a cliff and many got traded in for D850s.

Nikon kept on selling the D500 steadily, even though the total may well have dropped

The D500 was an excellent package to sell more of the core D5 technology, besides selling FX glass, including the 70-200's, 70-300's, 300 PF, 500 PF and 200-500 f5.6E among many other models.

The D500 was and still is an extremely popular camera in southern Africa, where a replacement is impatiently awaited.... The retailers report this to Dubai > Singapore > Tokyo

That's also what I did, even if you always crop to DX or smaller (most won't always if given a choice) then having a bigger starting image from which to chose the composition is still an advantage.

D850 and Z8 are too expensive - also too big / heavy - for the majority of Nikon customers outside N America and some countries in W Europe

Asia is now Nikon's biggest market

Z cameras are even better in this regard because on DSLRS the subject pretty much needed to be in the DX centre in order to focus.

After approx 3 years on the market, late June 2019, the D500 is listed at 110759 copies. The last few months of sales will already have overlapped the first year of Z7 and Z6 sales and Z MILC lenses (selling since October 2018).

Currently, despite the shrinking DSLR sales, the early 2025 total is 227532 D500 - an increase of 116773 registered since June 2019 alongside the best selling D850, plus Z cameras.

Interesting to note D850 sales increased to 363560 since June 2019, with only 73,967+ registered already 2 years after its shipping began in late 2017. However, there were big order backlogs of the D850 over the first year and longer. This is expected, Nikon has stated officially how the D850 has been one of their best selling ILCs overall.

Obviously, these statistics are incomplete global totals, which will be significantly higher considering huge geographical gaps and the overall rate of underreporting to Roland's database.

Nonetheless, whatever the attempts at denials and excuses, it's beyond doubt both the D500 and D850 sold the D5 AF and related technology very well indeed for Nikon Imaging. We also need to consider how sales of these Pro cameras will have pushed up the Lens: Camera tie ratio, and biased towards increased telephoto sales.

Anyone who believes the D500 is not a Nikon success has to produce the evidence.

https://nikonrumors.com/2019/06/26/nikon-dslr-camera-sales-figures-estimations.aspx/

It was a huge success but Nikon have explicitly said, many times, that sales "Fell off a cliff once the D850 was launched. I don't think it's in dispute

Never believed this myth

The data refute the myth the D500 became a marketing failure.

It continued selling steadily after the D850 launched. And these totals underestimate the global totals.

Bottom Line, is Mr Hogan knows something about the high possibility of the Z90

More relevant is what the same people say when asked about a potential high end DX camera in public. There is a standard answer, to any question about any future products and that's "We can't comment on any unannounced future products." They nearly always caveat that, when talking about a high end DX model by adding that "Those calling for them may be overestimating the actual demand." Once may be irrelevant but it' s happened often enough and from enough people that it seems like messaging.

The latest answers are distinctly different.>

Recent Interview, published April 2025

Loading…

phototrend.fr

Perhaps for sports and wildlife photography? There is currently a gap in the APS-C range.

Thank you for your feedback. We receive a lot of valuable feedback from our customers, and we actively discuss internally to incorporate their suggestions into our product development and planning."

This interview in 2024 also refers:

"We make it a point of honor to surprise you in the future. That's all I can tell you for now.... "

"Can we expect a high-end APS-C mirrorless camera body soon?

We believe Nikon has established a strong presence with the D7500 and D500 in the DX/APS-C camera space. So we continue to listen to customer opinions for the future....

Due to the democratization of social networks such as YouTube, TikTok or Instagram, customers are interested not only in photography, but also in video.

The younger generation demands high-quality images because they want to express their thoughts and emotions. This is why they demand cameras with interchangeable lenses. They could therefore use APS-C cameras, which are more compact compared to full-frame cameras.

We must continue to work on this subject to be able to meet the demands of this generation."

 

[zachdog]

a Z90 is nice to have. But exactly what lenses are we going to use with this high performance DX body? There is no high performance DX Z lenses to speak of right now.

The 16-80mm f2.8-4E was introduced alongside the D500. I have one and still use it with my Z50ii. Perhaps we will see a new Z mount version?

 

[Thom Hogan]

There is not the same kind of space/market for a DX sports/action camera as it was in 2007 and 2016.

And this conclusion is based upon what evidence?

And there is only so much room for even higher pixel density due to diffraction issues and lens quality limitations.

You are aware of Fujifilm's use of a 40mp APS-C image sensor, right? For wildlife/action photography you're often (if not always) at maximum aperture. f/2.8 and f/4 would not be what I call diffraction limited at 40mp APS-C.

That said, Nikon's last "smaller" action camera was 20mp. Any increase from that would seem like an increase.

 

[Thom Hogan]

Didn’t the Nikon choices back in 2007 and 2016 nearly bankrupt the company and make them lose major market share?

2007 through 2010 — Nikon increased market share and specifically made a clear dent in Canon's full frame dominance.

2016 through 2019 — The entire industry was in decline. Ultimately, every camera maker at some point had to make a decision on when to write down production assets or reassign them (Nikon had nothing they could reassign camera manufacturing facilities to). Nikon's writing down of assets triggered a huge number of "Nikon will fail" messages (often from those interested in them failing) without understanding that that big "loss" was a paper loss to adjust values of assets already bought. Nikon's cash flow, gross income, debt/equity was never under any threat.

 

[Thom Hogan]

The D500 was an excellent package to sell more of the core D5 technology,

And there you get something I didn't write specifically, but was underlying the suggestion. IF (and that's a big if), a Z9II deploys new technology, it's too early to immediately try dropping that into the Zf, Z5II, Z6III, Z8, so how would Nikon get cost efficiencies with, say, an EXPEED8 chip? By introducing a second camera either coincident or close behind.

besides selling FX glass, including the 70-200's, 70-300's, 300 PF, 500 PF and 200-500 f5.6E among many other models.

Yes, and a Z90 would indeed tend to sell more 400mm f/4.5, 600mm f/6.3 lenses.

The D500 was and still is an extremely popular camera in southern Africa...Z8 too expensive - also too big / heavy

This continues to be a subject on safari. The more airlines tighten carry-on limits coupled with the weight limits on small plane flights in Africa make a lighter solution definitely more attractive. Consider a Z90+400mm f/4.5 versus a Z8+600mm f/6.3, for instance.

 

[Mike-James]

"Can we expect a high-end APS-C mirrorless camera body soon?

We believe Nikon has established a strong presence with the D7500 and D500 in the DX/APS-C camera space. So we continue to listen to customer opinions for the future....

Due to the democratization of social networks such as YouTube, TikTok or Instagram, customers are interested not only in photography, but also in video.

The younger generation demands high-quality images because they want to express their thoughts and emotions. This is why they demand cameras with interchangeable lenses. They could therefore use APS-C cameras, which are more compact compared to full-frame cameras.

We must continue to work on this subject to be able to meet the demands of this generation."

That was an interesting answer which I italicized and underlined for myself. I had a D500 for when I didn't want to haul around my D5.

I just made my first move into Z bodies with a Z5/Z5ii and while researching I was wondering why seemingly they didn't have an Z body APS-C equivalent of a D500 to marry to the Z9.

 

[shuncheung]

a Z90 is nice to have. But exactly what lenses are we going to use with this high performance DX body? There is no high performance DX Z lenses to speak of right now.

People tend to use high-end FX lenses on high-end DX bodies. That has been the case since the D1.

That's the thing. Main advantages of DX cameras are cost, size, and weight. Using FX S lenses would make all those advantages go away. Back then entry level FF dslr costed a lot more than DX ones. This is no longer the case. Maybe that's why Nikon does not prioritize DX lenses at all.

Most high performance DX (D500) users don't care about that. They are shooting birds and want reach, resolution and performance.

I bought my D500 as soon as I could find one in early 2016, as there was a bit of shortage initially. I mainly used my D500 with two lenses: a 600mm/f4 AF-S VR and a 500mm/f5.6 PF. I almost never used any DX lens on it, precisely because I used the D500 to photograph birds.

For long teles, there is no point to make lenses DX as their size and weight is dominated by those big front elements, which cannot be reduced by making the lenses DX. It is much easier for Nikon to have just one set of big teles and they are all FX.

 

[chambeshi]

The D500 was an excellent package to sell more of the core D5 technology,

And there you get something I didn't write specifically, but was underlying the suggestion. IF (and that's a big if), a Z9II deploys new technology, it's too early to immediately try dropping that into the Zf, Z5II, Z6III, Z8, so how would Nikon get cost efficiencies with, say, an EXPEED8 chip? By introducing a second camera either coincident or close behind.

besides selling FX glass, including the 70-200's, 70-300's, 300 PF, 500 PF and 200-500 f5.6E among many other models.

Yes, and a Z90 would indeed tend to sell more 400mm f/4.5, 600mm f/6.3 lenses.

The D500 was and still is an extremely popular camera in southern Africa...Z8 too expensive - also too big / heavy

This continues to be a subject on safari. The more airlines tighten carry-on limits coupled with the weight limits on small plane flights in Africa make a lighter solution definitely more attractive. Consider a Z90+400mm f/4.5 versus a Z8+600mm f/6.3, for instance.

I like to hike in the hily terrain of Zimbabwe's granitic shield, namely off well known parts of the Matobo Hills, and also the Zambezi valley escarpments. Unforgiving terrain especially carrying a heavy pack....

If there was a cross mount FtR adapter, with reliable AF, i would definitely try out carrying a Canon R7 APC in this role with a couple of my light AFS F-mount Nikkors (including 18-35 G, 70-300 AFP, 500 PF). In any case, I'm probably not alone in watching the rumoured niche of the Canon R7 II, and similar high performance APC cameras in other systems.

Yes, indeed, the Z90 will make fine pairings with the 70-180 f2.8, 400 f4.5S and 600 f6.3 PF in a lightweight Wildlife Commando Kit. All for the better if it's 24mp or preferentially 30+ mp....

... because it's also about pixels/duck. Of course there's the caveat of lowlight levels where a 45mp FX sensor has advantages over a ~30mp DX sensor. However, modern noise reduction software has come a long way

 

[shuncheung]

There is not the same kind of space/market for a DX sports/action camera as it was in 2007 and 2016.

And this conclusion is based upon what evidence?

Thought I had explained that clearly in my previous post, but you left out that part of the quote: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/68418421

Back in 2007, both the D3 and D300 were 12MP, and those cameras had the highest pixel count on the Nikon lineup at the time. In 2016, both D5 and D500 were 20MP, while the D810 was 36MP but a slower camera. Therefore, DX had much denser pixels in those days. That changed a year and half later when Nikon introduced the D850, which has a similar pixel density as the D500 and essentially the same AF system. I know quite a few people dumped their D500, which was only a year or two old, in favor of the D850, although I wasn't one of those.

Today, Nikon's flagship Z9 also has their highest pixel count: 45MP, and the Z8 is mostly the same camera with the same sensor model but in a smaller package (which has some pros and some cons). Therefore, there is less room for a pro-sumer DX body.

And there is only so much room for even higher pixel density due to diffraction issues and lens quality limitations.

You are aware of Fujifilm's use of a 40mp APS-C image sensor, right? For wildlife/action photography you're often (if not always) at maximum aperture. f/2.8 and f/4 would not be what I call diffraction limited at 40mp APS-C.

What f2.8 and f4 lenses are you referring to? Those 600/4 TC and 400/2.8 TC that are well over $10K new? I wonder how many people can afford those. (I do know a few that have both; one frequents this forum.) Today, the popular telephoto lenses are the 180-600mm that is max f6.3 on the long end, 600/6.3 PF and to some extend 800/6.3 PF. No such f6.3 teles existed in the F mount when Nikon introduced the D5 and D500 in January 2016. The 200-500/5.6 AF-S VR had just be introduced a few months prior. The 500/5.6 PF introduced on August 23, 2018 at the same time as the Z6 and Z7 gradually led to several slower and lighter long teles. Given the improved high ISO results and modern post processing, we can get away with slower long teles.

That said, Nikon's last "smaller" action camera was 20mp. Any increase from that would seem like an increase.

Perhaps.

 

[rhlpetrus]

The time is already overdue for Nikon to release a new DX sensor with the capabilities for some years of life in several future cameras. This improvement is unavoidable.

Fuji and Canon are already here in this niche. At least a Partially-stacked Z DX sensor is likely if it's not fully stacked

It follows the the high-end Z90 is going to happen as well, sooner than later makes sense. It will amusing to see the sudden change in attitudes when demand surges

• 30mp stacked sensor, 2-2.5ms read-out
• 40-60fps RAW + RAW PreCapture
• 6k 120 video
• 2xCFExpress B slots
• Custom Menus and updated Z9 firmware

I recall when speculation and rumors started about a Z FF classic body, so many here ridiculed it, doubted it, and called on Nikon to stop wasting time and money on such a project. Well, not only it happened (Zf) but it has been an enormous market success, selling well, even at some premium (compared to the about equivalent and in some aspects better Z5II). It'll be the same if they make a Z90, which I agree they should, just like when they waited and waited but finally launched the D500, a very successful camera.

Cheers!

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

 

[shuncheung]

The D500 was and still is an extremely popular camera in southern Africa...Z8 too expensive - also too big / heavy

Nikon introduced the D500 @ $2000 in January 2016 and the Z8 @ $4000 in May 2023. There is certainly a big price difference (but 2016 price vs 2023 price), but have you ever compared their size and weight? I happen to have both right in front of me right now.

This continues to be a subject on safari. The more airlines tighten carry-on limits coupled with the weight limits on small plane flights in Africa make a lighter solution definitely more attractive. Consider a Z90+400mm f/4.5 versus a Z8+600mm f/6.3, for instance.

Yes, indeed, the Z90 will make fine pairings with the 70-180 f2.8, 400 f4.5S and 600 f6.3 PF in a lightweight Wildlife Commando Kit. All for the better if it's 24mp or preferentially 30+ mp....

I think you can already do that today with a Z8 plus those Z-mount lenses.

... because it's also about pixels/duck. Of course there's the caveat of lowlight levels where a 45mp FX sensor has advantages over a ~30mp DX sensor. However, modern noise reduction software has come a long way

Any DX Z body will still have the large Z mount, which limits the size of the body, and any performance camera will need to deal with heat dissipation from EXPEED (EXPEED 8??) and the CFexpress card, as the Z8 does. I don't think any potential Z version of the D500 will be all that light and small, and I wonder how Nikon will price it. The competition will be the Z8, especially used and refurb, which are below $3000 in the US at this point. One potential advantage is pixel density, but now we need to worry about diffraction from those max f6.3 lenses that are very popular now.

 

[monte12345]

And quite likely the same price as the Z8. Yeah, that will generate a huge surge in demand, NOT. Nikon is not stupid and they are not going to produce a product that doesn't generate enough sales to make a Profit.

First issue. Dual CFexpress type B card slots. That is a giant space hog for no real gain. The DX sensor has 1/2 the "demand load" of the Full Frame cameras.

Second issue. IBIS. People think that this is "Free". Fact is that there is a price to be paid for IBIS and it's not simply cost, there is also the size increase the motorized frame for the sensor will require. Build a DX format camera the size of the Z5 II and people will purchase the Z5 II.

Third issue. Semi or Fully Stacked image sensor. There will be a real world cost for this more complex sensor. Which means the camera will cost more and that increased price will result in lower sales volume. So think about this, will your purchase a DX format camera that costs more than the Z5 II? As much as I would like to see a Semi Stacked sensor in the DX format I expect that too many will prove to be unwilling to pay the increased cost that will require.

A more realistic Z90 would be the Z50 II with dual UHS-2 card slots and limitations on shutter speeds removed to allow 1/8000 second mechanical and 1/8000 electronic. Note this would mandate a slightly larger body and tooling up for that larger body will cost real money. I would also like to see Digital VR available for Stills. Note this will require a small crop but it would allow the use of non VR Prime lenses with 2 or 3 stops of digital IBIS.

 

[CBR1100XX]

The D500 was and still is an extremely popular camera in southern Africa...Z8 too expensive - also too big / heavy

Nikon introduced the D500 @ $2000 in January 2016 and the Z8 @ $4000 in May 2023. There is certainly a big price difference (but 2016 price vs 2023 price), but have you ever compared their size and weight? I happen to have both right in front of me right now.

This continues to be a subject on safari. The more airlines tighten carry-on limits coupled with the weight limits on small plane flights in Africa make a lighter solution definitely more attractive. Consider a Z90+400mm f/4.5 versus a Z8+600mm f/6.3, for instance.

Yes, indeed, the Z90 will make fine pairings with the 70-180 f2.8, 400 f4.5S and 600 f6.3 PF in a lightweight Wildlife Commando Kit. All for the better if it's 24mp or preferentially 30+ mp....

I think you can already do that today with a Z8 plus those Z-mount lenses.

... because it's also about pixels/duck. Of course there's the caveat of lowlight levels where a 45mp FX sensor has advantages over a ~30mp DX sensor. However, modern noise reduction software has come a long way

Any DX Z body will still have the large Z mount, which limits the size of the body, and any performance camera will need to deal with heat dissipation from EXPEED (EXPEED 8??) and the CFexpress card, as the Z8 does. I don't think any potential Z version of the D500 will be all that light and small, and I wonder how Nikon will price it. The competition will be the Z8, especially used and refurb, which are below $3000 in the US at this point. One potential advantage is pixel density, but now we need to worry about diffraction from those max f6.3 lenses that are very popular now.

For these setups with long telephotos the body is only part of the equation. Assume that they increase the sensor resolution to 30+MP and now you have more than the Z8 in crop mode and think of lenses that much smaller for the same effective reach.

It's not Nikon but just for a similar example I rented a Panasonic G9 II which has basically the same body as the S5 II. But when you look at the lenses their 35-100 F2.8 weighs 1/3 what the 70-200 F4 does creating a very different feel between them.

 

[shuncheung]

I recall when speculation and rumors started about a Z FF classic body, so many here ridiculed it, doubted it, and called on Nikon to stop wasting time and money on such a project. Well, not only it happened (Zf) but it has been an enormous market success, selling well, even at some premium (compared to the about equivalent and in some aspects better Z5II). It'll be the same if they make a Z90, which I agree they should, just like when they waited and waited but finally launched the D500, a very successful camera.

Well, if I were in charge at Nikon, there would never been any Df or Zf, but that is just me, and I will never be in charge at Nikon. ;-) Meanwhile, both Canon and Sony seem to be doing just fine without any retro camera body.

Part of the reason the Zf was selling pretty well was that it look Nikon a long long time to introduce the Z6iii. The improvements from the Z6 (2018) to Z6ii (2020) are, at best, very modest. Therefore, by 2022, 2023, the Z6/Z6ii design was already 4, 5 years old. When the Z8 with EXPEED 7 arrived in mid 2023, there was a lot of demand for a 24MP body with EXPEED 7 to have improved AF, and that came with the Zf in late 2023 instead of the Z6iii. Plenty of people bought the Zf for its improved AF, not necessarily the retro design. Still, the Zf was in stock on day 1 when it was available. I still have B&H screen shots from that day.

But the flip side was that when Nikon finally shipped the Z6iii several months later, demand was slow. Part of the reason was the higher, $2500 price tag, but plenty of people have already bought the Zf for the improved AF and didn't want to turn around and upgrade again after merely a few months. Eventually Nikon discounted the Z6iii very quickly in late 2024/early 2025.

I don't think the Zf would have sold nearly as well if it came after the Z6iii and Z5ii.

 

[Roland Stuttgart]

There is not the same kind of space/market for a DX sports/action camera as it was in 2007 and 2016.

And this conclusion is based upon what evidence?

Thought I had explained that clearly in my previous post, but you left out that part of the quote: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/68418421

Back in 2007, both the D3 and D300 were 12MP, and those cameras had the highest pixel count on the Nikon lineup at the time. In 2016, both D5 and D500 were 20MP, while the D810 was 36MP but a slower camera. Therefore, DX had much denser pixels in those days. That changed a year and half later when Nikon introduced the D850, which has a similar pixel density as the D500 and essentially the same AF system. I know quite a few people dumped their D500, which was only a year or two old, in favor of the D850, although I wasn't one of those.

Today, Nikon's flagship Z9 also has their highest pixel count: 45MP, and the Z8 is mostly the same camera with the same sensor model but in a smaller package (which has some pros and some cons). Therefore, there is less room for a pro-sumer DX body.

That‘s your opinion, nothing else. Fuji is very sucessful with their pro-sumer DX bodies.

A Z9 / Z90 or Z8 / Z80 could be perfect pairs, with the DX body giving some extra reach with the same glass.

And there is only so much room for even higher pixel density due to diffraction issues and lens quality limitations.

You are aware of Fujifilm's use of a 40mp APS-C image sensor, right? For wildlife/action photography you're often (if not always) at maximum aperture. f/2.8 and f/4 would not be what I call diffraction limited at 40mp APS-C.

What f2.8 and f4 lenses are you referring to? Those 600/4 TC and 400/2.8 TC that are well over $10K new? I wonder how many people can afford those. (I do know a few that have both; one frequents this forum.) Today, the popular telephoto lenses are the 180-600mm that is max f6.3 on the long end, 600/6.3 PF and to some extend 800/6.3 PF. No such f6.3 teles existed in the F mount when Nikon introduced the D5 and D500 in January 2016. The 200-500/5.6 AF-S VR had just be introduced a few months prior. The 500/5.6 PF introduced on August 23, 2018 at the same time as the Z6 and Z7 gradually led to several slower and lighter long teles. Given the improved high ISO results and modern post processing, we can get away with slower long teles.

Well, aren‘t the 70-180/2.8, 70-200/2.8 and 400/4.5 not also lenses that fit Thom‘s description? And the 500/5.6 also works very well on DX (I use mine on a Fuji with the Fringer adapter). As does the 300/4 PF.

The 400/4.5 is like a 600/6.3 on DX - it‘s a lot easier to carry two bodies than to bring the 400/4.5 AND the 600/6.3.

Or if we take the expensive but great 400/2.8 TC which also gives us a 560/4 with the TC engaged plus a 600/4 and a 840/5.6 on a DX body.

That said, Nikon's last "smaller" action camera was 20mp. Any increase from that would seem like an increase.

Perhaps.

 

[Roland Stuttgart]

I recall when speculation and rumors started about a Z FF classic body, so many here ridiculed it, doubted it, and called on Nikon to stop wasting time and money on such a project. Well, not only it happened (Zf) but it has been an enormous market success, selling well, even at some premium (compared to the about equivalent and in some aspects better Z5II). It'll be the same if they make a Z90, which I agree they should, just like when they waited and waited but finally launched the D500, a very successful camera.

Well, if I were in charge at Nikon, there would never been any Df or Zf, but that is just me, and I will never be in charge at Nikon. ;-) Meanwhile, both Canon and Sony seem to be doing just fine without any retro camera body.

That‘s good news for Nikon ;-)

Well, Fuji is selling their retro-style bodies and their small DX bodies like hotcakes.

Part of the reason the Zf was selling pretty well was that it look Nikon a long long time to introduce the Z6iii. The improvements from the Z6 (2018) to Z6ii (2020) are, at best, very modest. Therefore, by 2022, 2023, the Z6/Z6ii design was already 4, 5 years old. When the Z8 with EXPEED 7 arrived in mid 2023, there was a lot of demand for a 24MP body with EXPEED 7 to have improved AF, and that came with the Zf in late 2023 instead of the Z6iii. Plenty of people bought the Zf for its improved AF, not necessarily the retro design. Still, the Zf was in stock on day 1 when it was available. I still have B&H screen shots from that day.

But the flip side was that when Nikon finally shipped the Z6iii several months later, demand was slow. Part of the reason was the higher, $2500 price tag, but plenty of people have already bought the Zf for the improved AF and didn't want to turn around and upgrade again after merely a few months. Eventually Nikon discounted the Z6iii very quickly in late 2024/early 2025.

I don't think the Zf would have sold nearly as well if it came after the Z6iii and Z5ii.

I think you‘re wrong.

 

[Roxburgh22]

I recently upgraded my D500 to a Z8 but still have the D500.

The size of both cameras is almost exactly the same. The weight difference is just 50 grams.

I have (still) the 80-400mm lens on the D500 which is slightly smaller and slightly heavier than the Z100-400mm lens I bought for the Z8.

Overall, think the Z8 and D500 are comparable in size and weight.