High res options for an L-mount shooter

[Alex Carnes]

In the new year, I intend to embark on a project shooting some landscape and archaeological sites, possibly for the last time, and I therefore want the maximum possible resolution and overall image quality.

At the moment, I'm an L-mount shooter, mostly using the Panasonic S5II, but I've also got an S5 and S1 for backup and to save lens swaps. I bought the S1 used and neither of the older cameras are worth much to sell.

I suppose this problem has arisen essentially because Panasonic haven't released the S1RII, as expected. If it existed, I'd probably buy at least one; but for whatever reason, Panny seem to be concentrating on cameras hardly anyone wants.

I've got a selection of pretty good L-fit glassware.

Options are:

1.) Just use the cameras I've got. Panny's high res mode is always there when conditions allow and as we all privately know, 24MP is actually rather a lot.

2.) Buy a Leica SL3.

3.) Sell everything and buy a Sony A7RV and the new 28-70/2.

Medium format is cost prohibitive, but all three of the options above are on the table.

Thoughts?

 

[QuietOC]

The Sigma fp L should be fine for landscapes.

 

[Alex Carnes]

The Sigma fp L should be fine for landscapes.

I thought about that, but it's very limited with that electronic shutter - at 1/10 sec readout time and the necessity of using a tripod, you might as well use one of the 24MP Panasonics in high res mode. The output from the fp l is also rather soft - I don't know if the antialiasing filter is too strong, perhaps? If you download the studio scene from DP Review, use Adobe's AI upres on the S5II file, and then scale that to match the 60MP output of the fp l, the Panny is actually quite a bit sharper.

Really, to get a meaningful upgrade on the 24MP cameras I've got, it's an A7RV or the SL3. I'm just assuming Panasonic aren't going to release the S1RII and - awful thought, but we have to face facts - might exit the camera business altogether soon.

 

[Mark Sloe]

How about a second hand SL3? Good thing about buying a used Leica is that they don't depreciate at all if it's a new model and even with new release the old bodies hold their value well.

 

[Alex Carnes]

How about a second hand SL3? Good thing about buying a used Leica is that they don't depreciate at all if it's a new model and even with new release the old bodies hold their value well.

 

[NAwlins Contrarian]

In the new year, I intend to embark on a project shooting some landscape and archaeological sites, possibly for the last time, and I therefore want the maximum possible resolution and overall image quality.

At the moment, I'm an L-mount shooter, mostly using the Panasonic S5II, but I've also got an S5 and S1 for backup and to save lens swaps. I bought the S1 used and neither of the older cameras are worth much to sell.

I suppose this problem has arisen essentially because Panasonic haven't released the S1RII, as expected. If it existed, I'd probably buy at least one; but for whatever reason, Panny seem to be concentrating on cameras hardly anyone wants.

I've got a selection of pretty good L-fit glassware.

Options are:

1.) Just use the cameras I've got. Panny's high res mode is always there when conditions allow and as we all privately know, 24MP is actually rather a lot.

2.) Buy a Leica SL3.

3.) Sell everything and buy a Sony A7RV and the new 28-70/2.

Medium format is cost prohibitive, but all three of the options above are on the table.

Thoughts?

IMO what may make the most sense is for you to buy a used Panasonic S1R. Just now at MPB in the U.S. they're going for $1,559 to $1,839, and of course that's from an established, reputable seller with a warranty. I bet KEH and Robert's / Used Photo Pro are similar. Is there some reason that would not work for you?

Conversely, if you just have to have 60 MP because 47 MP just won't do (IMO that's a pretty modest difference, about 13% more linear resolution potential), then the least-expensive Leica SL3 at MPB is $5,879, and a new one is $6995. As of right now, a new Sony A7R V is $3398, so you could buy that plus a couple of lenses for less than an SL3.

Last but not least, medium format is not necessarily cost-prohibitive. You could probably get used, from a reputable seller, a Fuji GFX 100S plus a Fuji 35-70mm f/4.5-5.6 for $3500 total. If you shoot at f/8 or f/11 (about equivalent to FF f/6.3 or f/9), then that lens should perform fine. It would give you (depending on final aspect ration) about the equivalent of a FF 28-55mm f/3.6-4.5. Would that suffice for your needs? And of course there are other lenses for the Fuji that, bought used with a used GFX 100S, would be no more expensive than an SL3.

 

[Alex Carnes]

I As of right now, a new Sony A7R V is $3398, so you could buy that plus a couple of lenses for less than an SL3.

That's the dilemma. The SL3 is so expensive that I could buy an A7RV or a Canon R5MkII or a Z8 plus a lens or two for the same money!

I wish Panasonic would make their intentions clear - are they going to continue to compete in the full frame market, with a serious camera (an S1RII that's at least as good and hopefully better than the SL3) or are they quitting? I have to say, it's not looking good...

I had the original S1R but I wasn't crazy about the sensor.

 

[NAwlins Contrarian]

I As of right now, a new Sony A7R V is $3398, so you could buy that plus a couple of lenses for less than an SL3.

That's the dilemma. The SL3 is so expensive that I could buy an A7RV or a Canon R5MkII or a Z8 plus a lens or two for the same money!

I wish Panasonic would make their intentions clear - are they going to continue to compete in the full frame market, with a serious camera (an S1RII that's at least as good and hopefully better than the SL3) or are they quitting? I have to say, it's not looking good...

I don't think they know. I think they're feeling their way through it, looking for a way to make a profitable business out of it. But their market share is tiny with no clear prospects for improvement.

I had the original S1R but I wasn't crazy about the sensor.

How so?

Photons to Photos reports that the S1R's dynamic range is mostly pretty competitive even with the A7R V and the SL3. DxO has not tested the SL3, but it reports that the S1R and A7R V have very similar sensor performance. Indeed, other than a moderate dynamic range gap at ISO 200 through ISO 800, and the 13% difference in linear resolution, I don't see how the S1R is really behind the A7R V or SL3.

 

[Alex Carnes]

I had the original S1R but I wasn't crazy about the sensor.

How so?

Photons to Photos reports that the S1R's dynamic range is mostly pretty competitive even with the A7R V and the SL3. DxO has not tested the SL3, but it reports that the S1R and A7R V have very similar sensor performance. Indeed, other than a moderate dynamic range gap at ISO 200 through ISO 800, and the 13% difference in linear resolution, I don't see how the S1R is really behind the A7R V or SL3.

The files were a bit fragile. I've got a very light touch with post-processing, but if I needed a shadow push of any more than a couple of stops then the noise penalty quickly negated the advantage of the sensor resolution. And both of mine - I got through two - had clearly visible sensor bifurcation too.

It wasn't awful by any means and was mostly very good; but I quickly found myself preferring cameras built around the Sony 24MP sensor.

Just having a quick look at prices now, one could buy an EOS R5, the RF 24-70/2.8 and the RF 50/1.4 for just over £6k - which makes the SL3 look bloody expensive!

 

[Mark Sloe]

How about a second hand SL3? Good thing about buying a used Leica is that they don't depreciate at all if it's a new model and even with new release the old bodies hold their value well.

Yeah it's a possibility, although the flip side of that self same coin is that they aren't that much cheaper than new ones. (I haven't had much luck with second hand over the years!)

I think if I knew for certain where Panasonic were going and I was sure of the SL3's performance and reliability, I'd probably buy one. If I buy an SL3 and Panasonic release the S1RII the following week then I won't be best pleased! Although it's been 5 or 6 years now, so I just wonder if they haven't decided to cut their losses.

As they (Panasonic) spent a lot of time and money (co)developing the SL3, I'm sure the S1RII is around the corner. I doubt Leica would fund that initiative all by themselves. Timing is anyone's guess though.

SL3 is as much an aspirational piece of jewellery as it is a capable camera. Yes, you could comfortably build a full frame system from scratch for the price of one plus selling off your L-mount gear, but that's really not the point. Should S1RII come out after your trip and you would find the price/value difference interferring with your sleep, you can always sell with a loss at most equivalent to a reasonable rental.

As NAwlins mentioned, GFX is a viable option, you will get a lot more out of the files and a used GFX100S + GF 20-35/4 + GF 32-64/4 would probably fit within an SL3 price. Size and weight of dragging another not-so-small system along may be a pain...as is a compromise in AF department.

--
https://500px.com/mark_sloe

 

[NAwlins Contrarian]

I had the original S1R but I wasn't crazy about the sensor.

How so?

Photons to Photos reports that the S1R's dynamic range is mostly pretty competitive even with the A7R V and the SL3. DxO has not tested the SL3, but it reports that the S1R and A7R V have very similar sensor performance. Indeed, other than a moderate dynamic range gap at ISO 200 through ISO 800, and the 13% difference in linear resolution, I don't see how the S1R is really behind the A7R V or SL3.

And both of mine - I got through two - had clearly visible sensor bifurcation too.

IMO a visible line of demarcation / separation from two sensors having been joined to form one larger sensor would be an instant 'Thou shalt refund all my money' moment. I don't recall having heard that about the S1R, but I don't closely follow L-mount, so ...

Just having a quick look at prices now, one could buy an EOS R5, the RF 24-70/2.8 and the RF 50/1.4 for just over £6k - which makes the SL3 look bloody expensive!

The SL3 strikes me as very hard to justify from any quasi-objective price (£5,920, body-only) and performance standpoint, but if you're willing to take the hit from selling or trading your L-mount lenses and don't see a problem from the SL3's 'less than' autofocus, then the Nikon Z7 II seems very appealing. Looking just now, Wex says £2,699. The Nikon Z 24-70mm f/2.8 has an excellent reputation and is £1,499. If you want a 50mm prime then I'd go for the Nikon Z 50mm f/1.8 for £489 (and the less-level Nikon Z 50mm f/1.4 is £499). So that gets you a working system for £4,687.

If you'd like to have in your toolkit far better autofocus and the full 60 MP, then Wex is showing the A7R V for £3,249 and the Sony 24-70mm f/2.8 II for £1,899. Then you could add the Sony / Zeiss 55mm f/1.8 for £469 or the Sony 50mm f/1.4 for £1,499, putting the Sony kit at £5,617 or £6,647, depending on which fast 50-ish you get.

Personally Canon's basically 'closed' lens system and baked-in noise reduction on at least some of its cameras are very unappealing to me. I'd consider that heavily before spending my £6,257 (Wex prices for the system you identified--and to be clear, this is the R5 not the R5 II, which is £1,800 higher).

 

[NAwlins Contrarian]

I think if I knew for certain where Panasonic were going and I was sure of the SL3's performance and reliability, I'd probably buy one. If I buy an SL3 and Panasonic release the S1RII the following week then I won't be best pleased!

As they (Panasonic) spent a lot of time and money (co)developing the SL3, I'm sure the S1RII is around the corner. I doubt Leica would fund that initiative all by themselves. Timing is anyone's guess though.

Leica announced the SL3 almost ten months ago (March 7, 2024), but there's not yet an announcement of a corresponding camera from Panasonic, so it seems very doubtful what Panasonic may release, much less when.

Likewise, when Leica announced the D-Lux 8 on July 2, 2024, I and others assumed that a Panasonic LX100 III was likely to appear shortly thereafter. We're almost six months past that with no announcement, so again, it seems doubtful what Panasonic may release, much less when.

 

[Mark Sloe]

I think if I knew for certain where Panasonic were going and I was sure of the SL3's performance and reliability, I'd probably buy one. If I buy an SL3 and Panasonic release the S1RII the following week then I won't be best pleased!

As they (Panasonic) spent a lot of time and money (co)developing the SL3, I'm sure the S1RII is around the corner. I doubt Leica would fund that initiative all by themselves. Timing is anyone's guess though.

Leica announced the SL3 almost ten months ago (March 7, 2024), but there's not yet an announcement of a corresponding camera from Panasonic, so it seems very doubtful what Panasonic may release, much less when.

Likewise, when Leica announced the D-Lux 8 on July 2, 2024, I and others assumed that a Panasonic LX100 III was likely to appear shortly thereafter. We're almost six months past that with no announcement, so again, it seems doubtful what Panasonic may release, much less when.

D-Lux 8 is built around LX100II, so expecting a MkIII to follow shortly after is doubtful. SL3 is a brand new camera - sensor, processing, AF,... I'm optimistic.

 

[NAwlins Contrarian]

I think if I knew for certain where Panasonic were going and I was sure of the SL3's performance and reliability, I'd probably buy one. If I buy an SL3 and Panasonic release the S1RII the following week then I won't be best pleased!

As they (Panasonic) spent a lot of time and money (co)developing the SL3, I'm sure the S1RII is around the corner. I doubt Leica would fund that initiative all by themselves. Timing is anyone's guess though.

Leica announced the SL3 almost ten months ago (March 7, 2024), but there's not yet an announcement of a corresponding camera from Panasonic, so it seems very doubtful what Panasonic may release, much less when.

Likewise, when Leica announced the D-Lux 8 on July 2, 2024, I and others assumed that a Panasonic LX100 III was likely to appear shortly thereafter. We're almost six months past that with no announcement, so again, it seems doubtful what Panasonic may release, much less when.

D-Lux 8 is built around LX100II, so expecting a MkIII to follow shortly after is doubtful. SL3 is a brand new camera - sensor, processing, AF,... I'm optimistic.

No, the D-Lux 7 is basically the same camera as the LX100 II. The D-Lux 8 differs from the LX100 II and D-Lux 7 by using a greatly-improved viewfinder. So basically we have:

D-Lux (Typ 109) ≈ LX100 (original), both announced September 15, 2014;

D-Lux 7 ≈ LX100 II, both announced in 2018, Leica about 3 months after Panasonic; and

D-Lux 8 so far, almost six months after introduction, has no Panasonic counterpart.

 

[Ruedon]

In the new year, I intend to embark on a project shooting some landscape and archaeological sites, possibly for the last time, and I therefore want the maximum possible resolution and overall image quality.

At the moment, I'm an L-mount shooter, mostly using the Panasonic S5II, but I've also got an S5 and S1 for backup and to save lens swaps. I bought the S1 used and neither of the older cameras are worth much to sell.

I suppose this problem has arisen essentially because Panasonic haven't released the S1RII, as expected. If it existed, I'd probably buy at least one; but for whatever reason, Panny seem to be concentrating on cameras hardly anyone wants.

I've got a selection of pretty good L-fit glassware.

Options are:

1.) Just use the cameras I've got. Panny's high res mode is always there when conditions allow and as we all privately know, 24MP is actually rather a lot.

Sure. Your weakest spot might be the normal zoom 28-70/2.8. Sigma just released the very interesting Art 24-70mm F2.8 DG DN II. It's so handy to be able to go down to 24mm without lens swap often times.

2.) Buy a Leica SL3.

Leica fascinates me. Well thought details should make it a joy to use. Has always been out of acceptable reach for me. As I'm shooting a lot of fast action, appreciating bursts with snappy AF, Leica is out anyhow. Might be different in your case. So, if you can effort it ... enjoy.

3.) Sell everything and buy a Sony A7RV and the new 28-70/2.

The camera is great, for sure. The lens trades 24mm at the wide end for f/2 and an astronomic price. Possibly not the best match for landscapes and archeological sites.

Medium format is cost prohibitive, but all three of the options above are on the table.

Thoughts?

My (biased) primary lens of choice would be the Nikon 24-120/4 S-line. Perfect zoom range for travel, very good optical performance vs size/weight and you hardly need more than f/4. Requires a Nikon body though, Z7II or Z8 for the time being (well thought details too .

 

[Mark Sloe]

No, the D-Lux 7 is basically the same camera as the LX100 II. The D-Lux 8 differs from the LX100 II and D-Lux 7 by using a greatly-improved viewfinder. So basically we have:

D-Lux (Typ 109) ≈ LX100 (original), both announced September 15, 2014;

D-Lux 7 ≈ LX100 II, both announced in 2018, Leica about 3 months after Panasonic; and

D-Lux 8 so far, almost six months after introduction, has no Panasonic counterpart.

We are now hijacking the thread and entering a new discussion on what constitutes a new camera model and where D-Lux 8 falls in that discussion, so apologies to the OP.

D-Lux (Typ109)/LX100 use 16MP sensor, D-Lux 7/LX100II use a new 21MP sensor, new AF system, new processor, utilize a new body (a bit larger, a bit lighter, more buttons).

D-Lux 8 uses the same sensor and processor like the D-Lux 7. There is a new body, and a few interface upgrades - EVF, screen, USB-C, SD-II - and a new firmware with new menus, some different rather than new features (more time recording 4k video, less fps with af, 12 bit raw, lower base ISO, lower high ISO.)... But the costly hardcore development integrating, new sensor and processor is missing.

Leica being a luxury item can pull off releasing such an upgrade and charge £600 more, kind of D-Lux 7 limited edition price territory with an actual functional update rather than just cosmetics....and not limited. But I don't see where Panasonic's selling points would be. I could see myself loving the idea of LX100III with a new 25MP sensor, PDAF, new, sharper lens, etc, but that's an different beast altogether and would be a logical continuation of the LX line.

SL3, on the other hand, is a brand new camera in all aspects and like with the previous SLs, Panasonic would've done the donkey work of sensor/processor/AF algorithm/features integration, so it is reasonable to expect they will release their own camera utilizing full potential of the hardware (usually scaled back slightly on the Leicas).

 

[Alex Carnes]

Sure. Your weakest spot might be the normal zoom 28-70/2.8. Sigma just released the very interesting Art 24-70mm F2.8 DG DN II. It's so handy to be able to go down to 24mm without lens swap often times.

You'd think so wouldn't you. I tested two or three copies of the new 24-70/2.8 DG DN version II against my 28-70/2.8 and the latter won. There was a lot of sample variation with the new lens, and I gave up on it. It won't be weaker by design; if you can find one that's straight and sharp throughout the zoom range then I'm sure it's marvellous, but I knew when I was beaten!

2.) Buy a Leica SL3.

Leica fascinates me. Well thought details should make it a joy to use. Has always been out of acceptable reach for me. As I'm shooting a lot of fast action, appreciating bursts with snappy AF, Leica is out anyhow. Might be different in your case. So, if you can effort it ... enjoy.

I spoke to Lloyd Chambers about this, and it's reckoned that Leica use a thinner cover glass over the sensor for compatibility with older M mount lenses... which degrades performance with Sigma and Panasonic L mount lenses. If, as now seems likely, Panasonic never make another high resolution professional camera, then that is a complete disaster and largely nulls any advantage of the L mount alliance. I might see if I can hire or borrow and SL3 and test it. If these non-Leica lenses don't work particularly well on the SL3, and Panasonic really have decided to cut their losses and walk away, then that is a gangf--k.

3.) Sell everything and buy a Sony A7RV and the new 28-70/2.

The camera is great, for sure. The lens trades 24mm at the wide end for f/2 and an astronomic price. Possibly not the best match for landscapes and archeological sites.

It's expensive, but we should note in passing that one can buy the new 28-70/2 AND an A7RV for roughly the price of an SL3...!

 

[Alex Carnes]

SL3, on the other hand, is a brand new camera in all aspects and like with the previous SLs, Panasonic would've done the donkey work of sensor/processor/AF algorithm/features integration, so it is reasonable to expect they will release their own camera utilizing full potential of the hardware (usually scaled back slightly on the Leicas).

Hopefully. So where the **** is it?

 

[Ruedon]

Sure. Your weakest spot might be the normal zoom 28-70/2.8. Sigma just released the very interesting Art 24-70mm F2.8 DG DN II. It's so handy to be able to go down to 24mm without lens swap often times.

You'd think so wouldn't you. I tested two or three copies of the new 24-70/2.8 DG DN version II against my 28-70/2.8 and the latter won. There was a lot of sample variation with the new lens, and I gave up on it. It won't be weaker by design; if you can find one that's straight and sharp throughout the zoom range then I'm sure it's marvellous, but I knew when I was beaten!

Wow. We had a lot of such discussions about sample variations back in DSLR times, mostly with third party lenses. I thought this time was over, in particular also with on-sensor AF.

Fortunately I did never encounter it myself though. Only the Sigma 18-35/1.8 had focus issues on my D500 -- a fast wide Sigma again. I tried two more and all were the same -- so no sample variation either. Instead I invested quite some time testing it at different focal lengths and distances and filled a table for micro adjustments in the lens firmware. Called this lens my diva. It payed me back every invested hour with outstanding pictures for may years

...

3.) Sell everything and buy a Sony A7RV and the new 28-70/2.

The camera is great, for sure. The lens trades 24mm at the wide end for f/2 and an astronomic price. Possibly not the best match for landscapes and archeological sites.

It's expensive, but we should note in passing that one can buy the new 28-70/2 AND an A7RV for roughly the price of an SL3...!

Well, if the SL3 doesn't work well with your lenses and Panasonic doesn't bring out a high-res model then you got a problem. Nevertheless I think that a lens starting at 24mm would be more useful than f/2 for outdoor use. Besides the broader coverage, also bear the weight of the f/2 zoom in mind.

 

[Mark Sloe]

SL3, on the other hand, is a brand new camera in all aspects and like with the previous SLs, Panasonic would've done the donkey work of sensor/processor/AF algorithm/features integration, so it is reasonable to expect they will release their own camera utilizing full potential of the hardware (usually scaled back slightly on the Leicas).

Hopefully. So where the **** is it?

Rumors suggest early 2025, whatever that means...