How much to charge on a Total buyout BTL (Huge Client)

[RossKPhoto]

Hi guys,

Hope you're all good on here, this is my first post and excited to meet and chat with photogs of all levels!

I would describe myself as a fairly early career photographer having started my business a few years ago. I shoot mainly Arts events, portraits etc which is my main earner. I usually work with individual producers or small-medium size companies and feel I get paid pretty well for my time - a majority of my work is put on their social media for publicity and I don't charge a huge amount extra for that usage. I keep copywrite of course.

I've recently been offered a job by a large marketing agency who is hosting a season launch/ cross over event for arguably the biggest video game of all time and who I know has a LOT of money. Now what I'm doing is no different, its still an events shoot, so you know I just turn up and work with whatever is there, but the ad company wish to do a full buyout for BTL (Below the Line).

I'll be honest I have no idea what to charge for a few reasons:

1) As I said its a typical event shoot, no effort or real planning from me needed so in terms of my creative input it is low.

2) They want a full buyout so I suppose that means relinquishing the copywrite (although I would like a clause put in allowing me to use them for self promotion). I know that is expensive, however firstly they haven't said how many images they want, but they're expecting me to give a quote now. Secondly its Below the Line so as far as I know they are not intending for worldwide reach (although if they want to use for social media surely that is worldwide by default?). But, even though it is BTL its still two HUGE clients.

I'm very lost as you can tell haha, and want to make sure I'm pricing myself effectively. Everything I've described tells me it will probably cost a lot (even though in an email they said the budget is only a few hundred £ but they're still they asking me fees so I'm confused there) but I don't want to ruin my relationship with this client by going back to them with a ludicrously high figure.

I hope someone can help (and fairly speedy as I need to get back to them). Big thanks in advance to anyone who replies!

Ross

 

[ampimagedotcom]

.. the ad company wish to do a full buyout for BTL (Below the Line).

2) They want a full buyout so I suppose that means relinquishing the copywrite...

Please tick the boxes on this document to help us understand what you (think you) would be agreeing to here for a full buyout for BTL:



And then could you please tell us, or better yet show us, which boxes you would usually tick if someone asked you to take some images at an event & then provide them with those images afterwards for them to use.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.

 

[BAK CDN]

Ashley wrote a sentence suggesting you will shoot pictures before the event, but your own words suggest to me you will shoot during the event.

There is a vast difference in the value of pictures in these two time frames.

When I was buying pictures, I used to double the price for a buyout. But that was long ago, in the days of film.

BAK

 

[ampimagedotcom]

Ashley wrote a sentence suggesting you will shoot pictures before the event, but your own words suggest to me you will shoot during the event.

I'm confused too!

How can the OP shoot pictures of the event before the event?

There is a vast difference in the value of pictures in these two time frames.

Please explain the "difference in the value of pictures in these two time frames" as well as what you are actually talking about.

When I was buying pictures, I used to double the price for a buyout.

Why would you "double the price for a buyout" if you were buying pictures!!

Do you mean you would have agreed to pay twice as much or 100% more if the seller agreed to 'a buyout'??

And could you please tick the boxes on this document to help us understand what they would usually agree to...



.. and then also show us which boxes they would tick if they agreeing to 'a buyout'.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.

 

[BAK CDN]

How can the OP shoot pictures of the event before the event? There is a vast difference in the value of pictures in these two time frames.
Please explain the "difference in the value of pictures in these two time frames" as well as what you are actually talking about.

---- When you shoot before the event, there are photos that can be used for promotion. You can run photos in ads selling tickets., and make them into posters to sell at the event. And so on.

When I was buying pictures, I used to double the price for a buyout. Why would you "double the price for a buyout" if you were buying pictures!!

Do you mean you would have agreed to pay twice as much or 100% more if the seller agreed to 'a buyout'??-

----- Because I was the buyer, I decided how much I was willing to pay. If the photographer wanted $400 for the pictures we knew we had use for, he'd need to accept $800 to let me do anything else I could think up. Usually "anything else" was giving to pictures to magazine editors or framing pictures for executives' gifts.

And could you please tick the boxes on this document to help us understand what they would usually agree to...

---- no box ticking tonight. It is too late.

 

[ampimagedotcom]

no box ticking tonight. It is too late.

Okay - hopefully you will find some time later on or even over the weekend to do it.

Because I think it would be really interesting to see the difference between what you think an 'event photographer' like the OP would usually agree to, verses what you think they would agree to should you pay them 100% more for 'a buyout' as you (the buyer or the client) would call it.

Added Note: A few years ago on this forum, Kevin Krakta asked What is a 'Full-Buyout'?

Personally, I would agree with what Richard Weisgrau wrote here: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/35455216

"A full buyout means a transfer of the copyright..."

Cradoc fotoSoftware says a similar thing here: Buyouts vs Rights Packages :

"A buyout means a transfer of the copyright on your image to the client. This gives the client the right to use the image in any way they choose, forever. They can even resell the use of the image to others."

And so I would charge accordingly - but first I would let them know what the fee would be for the (unlimited) use of my images in either 2 media for 1 year or 1 media for 2 years, in 1 country or region, i.e. my B.U.R.

Because they may not need much more than that or they may not understand what 'a buyout' actually means.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.

 

[ampimagedotcom]

.. I usually work with individual producers or small-medium size companies and feel I get paid pretty well for my time - a majority of my work is put on their social media for publicity and I don't charge a huge amount extra for that usage. I keep copywrite of course...

..I hope someone can help (and fairly speedy as I need to get back to them).

Okay, since 24 hours has passed, I’m left to assume you really don’t know what to say - possibly because you ask people to pay you for 'your time', instead of or in exchange for the Rights to use your images.

So here is what I would say, which may help you negotiate the fee for the Rights to use your images - instead of for your time.

I would start by letting them know what the fee would be for this…


(Example of the boxes that I would tick on the 'Licence to use' document, if I were agreeing to let someone use my images exclusively, in 2 Media for 1 Year in 1 Country or Region)

.. as that would be like my Base Usage Rate or my starting point.

Example:


(Example of what I would say on the 1st Quote)

And then I would send them a 2nd Quote to let them know what the fee would be for this…


(Example of the boxes that I would tick on the 'Licence to use' document, if I were agreeing to 'Below the Line' advertising)

.. as that is what I would say Below-the-line advertising was.

So the fee for that, for example, would be my BUR +100% for the additional use - and I would also let them know at that stage, that for each additional years use the fee would be 50% more or £40 per image.

Both of which, as you can clearly see, would be for a lot less than this…


(Example of the boxes that I would tick on the 'Licence to use' document, if I were agreeing to let someone use my images exclusively, in All Media for 10+ Years throughout the World)

.. and has for 'a buyout', as I explained before, that would usually be for even more again - because a buyout means a transfer of the copyright - which I don't think they need - so I wouldn't give them a price for that until after I had told them what the fee would be for unlimited use, in All media for 10+ years throughout the World*.

But I wouldn't give them a price for that*, unless they asked me for that, after having received both the 1st and the 2nd Quote - and they were okay about that being the deal.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.

 

[BAK CDN]

Ashley wrote a sentence suggesting you will shoot pictures before the event, but your own words suggest to me you will shoot during the event.

I'm confused too!

How can the OP shoot pictures of the event before the event?

Apparently the OP's event has something to do with the launch of a modified version of the world's biggest / most important / super special video games. I think the OP is in the United Kingdom. We can assume that the international marketing of a video game would benefit from having some pictures ready for use all around the world. A selection of photos of the video game president with the new package, the regional managers from around the world, some celebrities in some shots...

And the OP would need to shoot these in advance.,

is a vast difference in the value of pictures in these two time frames.

Please explain the "difference in the value of pictures in these two time frames" as well as what you are actually talking about.

When I was buying pictures, I used to double the price for a buyout.

Why would you "double the price for a buyout" if you were buying pictures!!

The main purpose of the buyout of event pictures is to let me / my employer easily use the pictures without a lot of fuss. This past Wednesday the Globe and Mail, Canada's leading daily national newspaper, ran a full page advertisement with a small picture of a law firm partner that I probably took. If I took it, I've been paid.

BAK typed: Sometimes I am the buyer of pictures and sometimes the seller. More on box-ticking in a few minutes.

you mean you would have agreed to pay twice as much or 100% more if the seller agreed to 'a buyout'??And could you please tick the boxes on this document to help us understand what they would usually agree to...

x

.. and then also show us which boxes they would tick if they agreeing to 'a buyout'.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.

 

[BAK CDN]

no box ticking tonight. It is too late.

Okay - hopefully you will find some time later on or even over the weekend to do it.

If I used forms similar to yours, I would first learn what buyer and seller thinks "ambient" means.

Because I think it would be really interesting to see the difference between what you think an 'event photographer' like the OP would usually agree to, verses what you think they would agree to should you pay them 100% more for 'a buyout' as you (the buyer or the client) would call it.Added Note: A few years ago on this forum, Kevin Krakta asked What is a 'Full-Buyout'?

Personally, I would agree with what Richard Weisgrau wrote here: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/35455216

"A full buyout means a transfer of the copyright..."

Cradoc fotoSoftware says a similar thing here: Buyouts vs Rights Packages :

"A buyout means a transfer of the copyright on your image to the client. This gives the client the right to use the image in any way they choose, forever. They can even resell the use of the image to others."

And so I would charge accordingly - but first I would let them know what the fee would be for the (unlimited) use of my images in either 2 media for 1 year or 1 media for 2 years, in 1 country or region, i.e. my B.U.R.

Because they may not need much more than that or they may not understand what 'a buyout' actually means.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.

 

[ampimagedotcom]

If I used forms similar to yours, I would first learn what buyer and seller thinks "ambient" means.

Below are the basic definitions of the Media use terms and what each covers:-

• Ambient - includes: garage forecourt, airport and rail station screens and all public areas where advertising is screened.
• Billboards - includes: 96/48/16/12 sheet, superlites, escalator panels, bus sides & panels, taxis wraps & seats, bus backs, tube, underground.
• Brochure / Catalogue.
• Direct Mail - includes: door drop leaflets & postcards.
• Inserts / Prints.
• Marketing Aids - includes: umbrellas, ashtrays, beer mats, exhibition panels, trolley panels, etc.
• Magazine ads - includes: advertorial features, ads & PR.
• Editorial feature in either newspapers or magazines.
• Newspaper ads - includes: advertorial features, ads & PR.
• Packaging.
• Point of sale.
• Press - includes: trade, consummer, local, national, magazine & newspapers.
• Television / Cinema - includes: interactive TV, Video, mobiles, CD ads.
• Worldwide web - includes: email ads & internet use.

For more information on this, buy the AOP’s book Beyond The Lens – “the essential guide to rights, ethics and business practice in professional photography”.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.

 

[ampimagedotcom]

..a vast difference in the value of pictures in these two time frames.

I understand - you are talking about taking pictures for an up & coming event...


(Setting up for an event in the marquee at Doonbeg Golf Club in County Clare)

.. rather than taking pictures at the event...


(One of the many pictures taken during Christian Dior's 'Adventures in Wonderland' party in the marquee at Doonbeg Golf Club in County Clare)

.. which would probably look very different.

Plus what the client would actually want to use each of those type of images for afterwards, would usually be very different too.

At a minimum, you are probably talking about this for the first one...


(Example of the boxes that I would tick on the 'Licence to use' document, if I were agreeing to let someone use my images exclusively, in All Media for 1 Year in the UK & Ireland plus on the Internet)

.. but they may want the Territory of use to be Worldwide, and they may want to use that type of image for more than one year.

For the second one, this may be all they need...


(Example of the boxes that I would tick on the 'Licence to use' document, if I were agreeing to let someone use my images exclusively, in 2 Media for 1 Year in the UK & Ireland plus on the Internet)

.. so the price one would quote for each, would naturally be very different as a result.

I would often get asked to produce the images for an up & coming event...


(The dance floor inside the marquee at the Trump International Hotel near the village of Doonbeg in Ireland)

.. rather than be ask to take pictures at the event... just so you know.

The main purpose of the buyout of event pictures is to let me / my employer easily use the pictures without a lot of fuss.

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" - as they would say.

The reason as to why some photographers may not agree to 'a buyout' is because they understand what that term actually means - and therefore know that (a) you don’t need that, (b) you wouldn’t be prepared to pay the full amount that they would want to be paid for that... just so you know.

This past Wednesday the Globe and Mail, Canada's leading daily national newspaper, ran a full page advertisement with a small picture of a law firm partner that I probably took. If I took it, I've been paid.

Yes, because:

"A buyout means a transfer of the copyright on your image to the client. This gives the client the right to use the image in any way they choose, forever. They can even resell the use of the image to others." - Buyouts vs Rights Packages.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.

 

[Victor Engel]

It is the RIGHT to copy - nothing to do with writing. Not being nitpicky, but it's a good idea to get it right in legal documents.

 

[BAK CDN]

Thanks for the ambient definition.

And all the items, added together, certainly show how many opportunities there are to show the work of a photographer to the eyes an advertiser thinks may belong to a potential subscriber or customer.

BAK

 

[BAK CDN]

Before I used the word in one of these posts, I looked it up in my paper-based dictionary, just to be shore,

BAK

 

[ampimagedotcom]

Thanks for the ambient definition.

No problems.

And all the items, added together, certainly show how many opportunities there are to show the work of a photographer to the eyes an advertiser thinks may belong to a potential subscriber or customer.

Yes.

Just so you know: if I was dealing with a new client I would usually list each of the Media when Quoting, like so...


(Quote No. 00017514 - which was for the use of 7 images in All Media, for 1 year, throughout the World + on the Internet)

.. because I think (a) that sounds like I'm agreeing to a lot of use, (b) that also helps them think more about what all they could use my images for afterwards as well... which they may not have actually done.

So in the OP's case here, rather than say it's for 'Below-the-Line' use, I would actually list the media when Quoting - because I would also want to be sure that 'we' are both actually talking about the same thing, i.e. to use these images for:-

Media use: Brochures / Catalogues, Direct Mail, Inserts / Prints, Point of sale, Press, Worldwide web & promotional emails... only.

Because if that's wrong, now is the time I'd want to sort it out - as the price I'm quoting may need to change too - since I am just asking them to pay me for 'the use of my work', which is based on that information.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.

 

[BAK CDN]

[No message]

 

[Ellis Vener]

Hi guys,

Hope you're all good on here, this is my first post and excited to meet and chat with photogs of all levels!

I would describe myself as a fairly early career photographer having started my business a few years ago. I shoot mainly Arts events, portraits etc which is my main earner. I usually work with individual producers or small-medium size companies and feel I get paid pretty well for my time - a majority of my work is put on their social media for publicity and I don't charge a huge amount extra for that usage. I keep copywrite of course.

I've recently been offered a job by a large marketing agency who is hosting a season launch/ cross over event for arguably the biggest video game of all time and who I know has a LOT of money. Now what I'm doing is no different, its still an events shoot, so you know I just turn up and work with whatever is there, but the ad company wish to do a full buyout for BTL (Below the Line).

I'll be honest I have no idea what to charge for a few reasons:

1) As I said its a typical event shoot, no effort or real planning from me needed so in terms of my creative input it is low.

2) They want a full buyout so I suppose that means relinquishing the copywrite (although I would like a clause put in allowing me to use them for self promotion). I know that is expensive, however firstly they haven't said how many images they want, but they're expecting me to give a quote now. Secondly its Below the Line so as far as I know they are not intending for worldwide reach (although if they want to use for social media surely that is worldwide by default?). But, even though it is BTL its still two HUGE clients.

I'm very lost as you can tell haha, and want to make sure I'm pricing myself effectively. Everything I've described tells me it will probably cost a lot (even though in an email they said the budget is only a few hundred £ but they're still they asking me fees so I'm confused there) but I don't want to ruin my relationship with this client by going back to them with a ludicrously high figure.

I hope someone can help (and fairly speedy as I need to get back to them). Big thanks in advance to anyone who replies!

Ross

It might help you if you try looking at the issue from the PoV of the agency and/or their client. They likely want a buyout for a few reasons.

- The most likely reason is that they ask this automatically. The person requesting the quote might not even know why they do this.

- "Work for hire" agreements are likely standard in the gaming industry, where the company wants to own all of the direct and related intellectual property.

- They want to control how the photos are used and to make sure you can't relicense them to some tabloid or more legitimate news organization in case a scandal erupts involving someone in the photos, or worse, that someone unscrupulous doesn't scrape them from your website or social media.


- They don't know how they might use the photos in the future and want to make sure they are covering all their bases so they don't have to come back and negotiate additional usage later.


In any case, they know they are asking for something above and beyond the usual scope of this work and expect to be charged accordingly.

--
Ellis Vener
To see my work, please visit http://www.ellisvener.com
I am on Instagram @EllisVenerStudio
“It's not about the f-stop." -Jay Maisel
Don't be "a photographer.” Be photographing. (Paraphrasing William Faulkner's advice to writers.)

 

[ampimagedotcom]

.. the ad company wish to do a full buyout for BTL (Below the Line).

It might help you if you try looking at the issue from the PoV of the agency and/or their client. They likely want a buyout for a few reasons.

Want is not the same as need - plus the OP said the ad company asked for a price for Below-the-Line use.

"Below-the-line advertising is an advertising strategy where products are promoted in media other than mainstream radio, television, billboards, print, and film formats. The main types of below-the-line advertising systems include direct mail campaigns, social media marketing, trade shows, catalogs, and targeted search engine marketing."

So maybe what they meant, when they used the term 'buyout', is they want him/her to give them a price 'for unlimited use' in those media that one would normally include when talking about Below-the-Line use!!

- The most likely reason is that they ask this automatically. The person requesting the quote might not even know why they do this.

Yes - so the OP may need to send them a few quotes to help them understand how licensing works, i.e. if you ask for more (use), it will cost you more (money).

- "Work for hire" agreements are likely standard in the gaming industry, where the company wants to own all of the direct and related intellectual property.

The ad company asked for a price for Below-the-Line use - so it would appear they understand usage and therefore know this is not a Work Made for Hire type of deal.

- They want to control how the photos are used and to make sure you can't relicense them to some tabloid or more legitimate news organization in case a scandal erupts involving someone in the photos, or worse, that someone unscrupulous doesn't scrape them from your website or social media.

Hence the Exclusivity Clause on the Licence to use document:

"I confirm that subject to clause 5 overleaf I shall not publish or supply the material to any other person for publication during the term of the licence plus 30 days, without the express permission of the Agency or the Advertiser."

And why on your Quotes & Invoices you may also want to say: "For exclusive use, for 'the name of the company' (only) to use these images for:-" or "For 'the name of the company' to exclusivity use these images for:-"

- They don't know how they might use the photos in the future and want to make sure they are covering all their bases so they don't have to come back and negotiate additional usage later.

The OP said the ad company asked for a price for Below-the-Line use - so I suggested the OP start by letting them know what the fee would be for 1 years use - and then wait for their reply...


(Example of the boxes that I would tick on the 'Licence to use' document, if I were agreeing to 'Below the Line' advertising)

.. before assuming they would need more than that or that they would be willing to pay for more than that.

And (Please note) I also suggested letting the client know what the fee would be for an additional years use at this stage - because pay-as-you-go is also always an option.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.

 

[ampimagedotcom]

According to the AOP here: https://www.the-aop.org/information/usage-calculator/explanation-of-b-u-r - which I have just read...

Above and below the line

Instead of asking for specific media, many clients will ask for Above the Line or Below the Line media to be licensed. These two categories are established common parlance, but because there is no definitive description as to which media should belong in each, this can cause confusion as to what the photographer needs to licence. In the 1st instance, photographers are advised to ask the client what media they actually need to ensure they can price the licence fairly. It is becoming common to hear the terms, 'content' and 'channel' being used to describe usage instead of 'above or below the line'.

The following list is not exhaustive, but gives an idea as to which media should belong in each category, and has been developed through experience of negotiating licences by Photographic Agents:

Above the Line

Ambient
Internet
OOH (Out of Home)
Point of Sale
Posters
Press
TV (Including interactive)

Below the Line

Brochures
Collateral
Direct Mail
Intranet
Marketing Aids
PR

-

.. and then there is what your client thinks it means when they use either of these two terms - which is why I would suggest you clearly state on your Quotes & Invoices which media you are actually agreeing to, rather than use 'a term' which could mean different things to different people over the years.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.

 

[ampimagedotcom]

2) They want a full buyout ...

Andrew Souders talks about the use of this term in the Wonderful Machine's most recent post here:

CONTRACT REVIEW: REVISING IMAGE LICENSING TERMS EX POST FACTO

"I recently worked on a Contract Review with a photographer who had a conflict with a client. The photographer was commissioned by a production company to create publicity stills of a documentary film for a television network. The price quote the photographer sent the production company specified that the photographer would deliver up to 30 images with a “full buyout.”

Once the production had wrapped, however, and the photographer invoiced the job, it became clear that both parties had a different understanding of the term. The photographer thought that a buyout meant that they would retain copyright of the images, whereas the production company thought that buyout meant that they would own the copyright. The photographer came to me to see if I could help resolve the misunderstanding and clarify the image licensing language."

As far as I’m concerned, agreeing to a 'Full Buyout' isn’t not the same as agreeing to just a ‘Buyout’.

A ‘Buyout’ would usually mean the client would want 'Exclusive use of the images' for a period of time, to use in All Media for example. Whereas a 'Full Buyout’ would mean the client would want to own the Copyright too, so they would want me to agree to sign over All Rights.

As for the story about how he resolved this, that made me laugh - because I know what my clients would have said to Andrew here, especially after I had invoiced them and had agreed to a 'Full Buyout’ like this photographer did.

I'm also wonder when the Photographer realised that what he/she thought was different to what the production company thought - or even how he/she knew what the production company thought after having received the Invoice for a Full Buyout - because I can't imagine they would have called to say this isn't what we agreed to pay you for!!

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.