Photographers want sexy compacts, not cheap compacts

[Promeneur]

Leica invented the sexy compact camera. Fuji is riding the RF look with budget pricing. Canon sells quite a few cheap compacts (PowerShot 360 and 740). Ricoh has the GR IIIX which sells in relatively low volume. Olympus has the TG7 and TG6 both of which outsell the Ricoh. Panasonic has the ZS200 which sells well. Sony has the ZV's. Even Kodak is selling the FZ45 at the low end of the market. There is no room in the compact market for more models.

If that was meant to be parody, it didn't catch on with me. The GR IIIx is still sold out anywhere in my region, has been for months. We keep hearing that sales of the GR line and even more, the Theta, are what carries the Imaging division at Ricoh financially.

"sells in relatively low volume" therefore seems to be a dysphemism for "they can't make 'em fast enough". Dealers have even raised their prices again recently to almost (-4%) bring them back up to the original RRP two and a half years ago.

Let's be honest here - we're not used to seeing small electronics be this price stable in the last two decades. And I would not be surprised if the GR IV went up a bump from there.

In my mind, DPReview played a big hand in hyping up the Olympus TGs. I once looked at the actual data of failure by water ingress more deeply, and the TGs were not markedly different from some other models (but a few big brand models were rather bad). Today, I wouldn't be surprised if ChatGPT could just tell you.

If I remember correctly Ricoh does not readily announce the end of a model line. Ricoh enthusiasts were still expecting a GXR update years after it went out of production. Finally about five years later Ricoh said that it was no longer in production (Obviosuly).

I suggest that possibly one reason why the GRIIIx is no longer available is not that they cannot keep up with demand (Something ridiculous in my Ricoh-book) but they have quietly canned it and it might take some time for present-day Ricoh people to admit it.

"but they have quietly canned it and it might take some time for present-day Ricoh people to admit it."

Tom, that's one of the most amusing statements I have read in a long time on this forum.

I do however, own the GF10, GX850, GX85, GX9, PEN F, and E-P7. Only two remain available at retailers.

It's not a good position to be for Ricoh when your only two cameras, the GRIII(x) have been practically unavailable for the past nine months. At least not available in NA. Don't know what parts shortages that they might be experiencing? All of this is specualtion of course.

Well I was a committed Ricoh person from the GRD (Original) through to the GR model and a few others along the way - like the GX100, R-models and the GXR (big time). But when Ricoh acquired Pentax assets and handed the existing Ricoh camera division to run the Pentax people canned all the then Ricoh products and concentrate on the Pentax Q and on the push for a FF Pentax dslr . The GR alone was spared as it was Ricoh's red line.

But I grew tired of the idea of continually updating a camera body that always had a 28mm FF fov eq fixed lens. The GXR was the Ricoh future as I saw it and right on the cusp of when it looked like it was going to get traction it was discontinued.

As noted it took Ricoh a long time to admit that the GXR project had been canned.

I still have lot of Ricoh gear in drawers.

Maybe a GRIV on the way - another 28mm FF fov eq fixed lens compact? Maybe a 45mm version of the same a few more years down the track. At least they are not asking their GR people to update on an every two year cycle.

I replied to you in another post with a link to an interview with a link to a Ricoh GR Designer, Inaba-san.

Don't we generally find out that a product is canned/discontinued when we see that posted by the retailer. Remember the back and forth exchanges a year ago and the confusion on this forum when people wondered if the GX9 was discontinued or not. When does a manufacturer shout from the roof top, hey guys this product failed and we're discontinuing it.

 

[Promeneur]

If we're talking compact ILC's, then it doesn't have to be sexy or exotic, just an upgrade on the Pen-F, or the GX8, or the GX9 - something with OMDS AF, a good sensor, PDAF and some decent stabilization. That's what all the owners of every rangefinder-style camera ever sold by Olympus or Panasonic are waiting for, and if they sold it with a nice prime as the kit lens then they'll drag in other buyers who know nothing about m4/3 but like what they see

Maybe. However, I was at a Fujifilm touch and try event a couple of weeks ago and noticed there was no X-E4 cameras there, so I asked the Fujifilm rep and she said they've discontinued that line. I was surprised because it's a nice little camera even though it doesn't have the cool looking hybrid viewfinder like the X-Pro 3 or X100 series. So perhaps interchangeable lens retro rangefinder style cameras now need to have something unique like the hybrid viewfinder to get people's attention.

Hybrid viewfinder at least, or even better a real optical rangefinder, or a B&W sensor version, or milled out of a solid chunk of metal. Or all of that.... hmm wait, that's a Leica then....

A more affordable economy option is a tiltable viewfinder. Or for the very smallest cameras pop-up viewfinders can be quite sexy.

Who knows?

Who knows indeed. In 10 years today's contemporary camera designs may be called retro, and today's hipster & cult cameras will be the new normal and all what is left to buy

- and if my thinking is correct, this could include a price of under $1200, perhaps even less.

A body like this, with the OM5 and OM1 series for the more serious, and OMDS would be set just fine. If they create a fixed-lens compact, then anyone who owns some m4/3 lenses will curse them till Christmas, at least. I wouldn't buy one, anyway!

A Fujifilm X-E4 with a Voigtlander Ultron 27mm (FF 40mm) f/2.0 would interest me, but my pockets are not that deep and I doubt I could ever find the X-E4 anyway. Plus, I don't want to get into another system.

 

[cba_melbourne]

Leica invented the sexy compact camera. Fuji is riding the RF look with budget pricing. Canon sells quite a few cheap compacts (PowerShot 360 and 740). Ricoh has the GR IIIX which sells in relatively low volume. Olympus has the TG7 and TG6 both of which outsell the Ricoh. Panasonic has the ZS200 which sells well. Sony has the ZV's. Even Kodak is selling the FZ45 at the low end of the market. There is no room in the compact market for more models.

Look where the real money is - 2/3 of Fuji's Imaging revenue comes from Instax so maybe everyone should jump back in to film :-D Now we've gone full circle.

Yeah, right. Fuji has budget pricing for the X100 VI? That's funny.

Leica Q3 €5,950,00

Leica wannabe x100vi €1,799,00

Canon announced this past weekend that they are developing a retro, fixed-lens APS-C compact to compete with Ricoh and Fuji.

Link to this announcement?

Leica is now planning an APS-C fixed-lens to premiere this summer, and with competitive pricing with Ricoh and Fuji.

Link to this announcement? Leica abandon APS-C several years ago.

The Ricoh and Fuji are both sold out everywhere, and back orders are piling up.

Limited supply as usual.

There is more room, as OM could be in this discussion and be taking some market from Ricoh and Fuji. Instead, OM is pushing a $2400 camera and $2300 lens to the wildlife niche, neither of which will garner new customers--only those existing who want a mild update.

I get passionate about this because I want OM to survive. But I would not put $$$ on it.

This market is small and saturated. Fixed lens cams are shrinking segment in the industry, second only to DSLR contraction.

Here are some links for you.

https://www.techradar.com/cameras/c...xed-lens-compact-to-rival-the-fujifilm-x100vi

The market for small sensor compacts died with the iPhone taking over. Premium compacts with large sensors seem to be on the rise.

But why? You can get a high quality small sensor compact with a bright lens (Panasonic FZ300), for much less than an iphone. There are no modern iphones selling for under 500.

But why do people still buy wrist watches? When even the cheapest $50 phone can show you the time perfectly synchronized to an atomic clock. Partly, it is because wrist watches are also a statement about your person, about your tastes, about who you are (or think to be).

Just put that (rather ugly) FZ300 on a table besides a modern phone flagship. And to the other side say an X100. Which makes a better pair or match aesthetically? Well, some people care. Actually, the vast majority of people care. That is why they rather spend the money for an FZ300 on a better flagship phone, or save up for a more classy looking camera. That 20 year old DSLR look is sooo out in 2024!

 

[Promeneur]

Panasonic made the sexiest quality compacts in the form of the GM series duo.

The market did not buy enough until the price came down to a point where Panasonic decided that they did not wish to repeat the experience.

The old adage rules - "small cameras are not as good as large cameras and so they should be cheap". As the market will not pay premium prices for these sexy cameras then they are built and marketed with less features. The market then refuses to buy tham because of missing features.

Example: the current G100 which gets regularly slammed against the wall because it lacks IBIS despite otherwise being a small capable camera priced well. "We need our small cameras to be fully featured (and cheap)" ... ha ha

Only large fully featured cameras are worth paying premium prices for. (Joke)

But if the G100 came with everything it would likely be more expensive than a G9II - small thing need great design to be made that small with every feature. Building tiny must be more expensive as well.

On the other hand Ricoh used to be accused of building the GRD/GR type as a hobby more than a business. I don't think anything has changed in that regard. The price of the GR has risen and presumably high enough to still return a profit with much tinier sales number than Panasonic would ever accept.

Tiny sales mean smaller production runs and less frequent major updates - not a bad thing really. They could almost make the GRIII in the garden shed.

"Ricoh’s annual operating profits soared 97 percent, in part driven by “ongoing profitability of camera business.” The company singled out cameras as a fiscal bright spot in the Other category. (Ricoh does not break out camera sales.)"

Read more at: https://www.pentaxforums.com/articl...t-increase-for-fiscal-2022.html#ixzz8UyHYj1mF

The "other" category at Ricoh amounts to 1% of revenue. They do not break out camera sales because it is wholly insignificant in that context. In their latest IR release the only mention of cameras in the 24 page document is this line: "sales increased due to steady growth of the camera business". Of course there are no actual numbers to put this in context. If they sold 100 units last year and 101 units this year, we achieved steady growth.

Thanks for pointing that out. I don't see how the profitablity of the camera business can be considered a bright spot if "Other" only represents 1% of revenue. The fiscal year in Japan ends on March 31st, so we'll have to wait for the next report. With the significant backorder problems it means to me that the camera divisions could be hemorrhaging money that past nine months. Ricoh Camera division is tiny and makes great products. I hope it survives as I do OM System.

 

[Bassam Guy]

Their conclusion was yes the mobile phone market did kill the cheap entry compact cameras. However, there is still a market for the sexy compact cameras photographers want to own. Hence why Fuji etc. compact cameras are selling out.

How can I tell if a camera is sexy?

Here we read euphemisms for camera sexy all the time, like:
- it feels good in my hands
- it balances well
- I like the feel of the rubber focus ring
- the buttons have nice feel
- the ergonomics are perfect for my hands
- it's a delight to carry around
- I have so much fun with it
- I like the feel of metal
- I love the retro look
- my favourite camera of all time but I don't use it much
and so on.

Thanks, I get it now. Not qualities that I care a lot about but enough to convince me to order order some camera lingerie

 

[cba_melbourne]

If we're talking compact ILC's, then it doesn't have to be sexy or exotic, just an upgrade on the Pen-F, or the GX8, or the GX9 - something with OMDS AF, a good sensor, PDAF and some decent stabilization. That's what all the owners of every rangefinder-style camera ever sold by Olympus or Panasonic are waiting for, and if they sold it with a nice prime as the kit lens then they'll drag in other buyers who know nothing about m4/3 but like what they see

Maybe. However, I was at a Fujifilm touch and try event a couple of weeks ago and noticed there was no X-E4 cameras there, so I asked the Fujifilm rep and she said they've discontinued that line. I was surprised because it's a nice little camera even though it doesn't have the cool looking hybrid viewfinder like the X-Pro 3 or X100 series. So perhaps interchangeable lens retro rangefinder style cameras now need to have something unique like the hybrid viewfinder to get people's attention.

Hybrid viewfinder at least, or even better a real optical rangefinder, or a B&W sensor version, or milled out of a solid chunk of metal. Or all of that.... hmm wait, that's a Leica then....

A more affordable economy option is a tiltable viewfinder. Or for the very smallest cameras pop-up viewfinders can be quite sexy.

Who knows?

Who knows indeed. In 10 years today's contemporary camera designs may be called retro, and today's hipster & cult cameras will be the new normal and all what is left to buy

- and if my thinking is correct, this could include a price of under $1200, perhaps even less.

A body like this, with the OM5 and OM1 series for the more serious, and OMDS would be set just fine. If they create a fixed-lens compact, then anyone who owns some m4/3 lenses will curse them till Christmas, at least. I wouldn't buy one, anyway!

A Fujifilm X-E4 with a Voigtlander Ultron 27mm (FF 40mm) f/2.0 would interest me, but my pockets are not that deep and I doubt I could ever find the X-E4 anyway. Plus, I don't want to get into another system.

But why not?

Let me help you:

A system only matters, if you choose to use it as a system

Nobody says you have to, nobody can force you to

A system camera with just one lens "glued" onto it, becomes a compact camera

So, if you get that camera (likely used, as very hard to find new), and your dream Voigtländer 27/2.0, what you end up with is essentially a premium "custom" compact camera

No need to worry about that unthinkable heresy, shame, and betrayal of all your beliefs and values, defecting to another system. It's just another compact after all

And it's likely better for the particular use case you have in mind, then anything you could buy in m43

 

[Breakfastographer]

Leica invented the sexy compact camera. Fuji is riding the RF look with budget pricing. Canon sells quite a few cheap compacts (PowerShot 360 and 740). Ricoh has the GR IIIX which sells in relatively low volume. Olympus has the TG7 and TG6 both of which outsell the Ricoh. Panasonic has the ZS200 which sells well. Sony has the ZV's. Even Kodak is selling the FZ45 at the low end of the market. There is no room in the compact market for more models.

If that was meant to be parody, it didn't catch on with me. The GR IIIx is still sold out anywhere in my region, has been for months. We keep hearing that sales of the GR line and even more, the Theta, are what carries the Imaging division at Ricoh financially.

"sells in relatively low volume" therefore seems to be a dysphemism for "they can't make 'em fast enough". Dealers have even raised their prices again recently to almost (-4%) bring them back up to the original RRP two and a half years ago.

Let's be honest here - we're not used to seeing small electronics be this price stable in the last two decades. And I would not be surprised if the GR IV went up a bump from there.

In my mind, DPReview played a big hand in hyping up the Olympus TGs. I once looked at the actual data of failure by water ingress more deeply, and the TGs were not markedly different from some other models (but a few big brand models were rather bad). Today, I wouldn't be surprised if ChatGPT could just tell you.

If I remember correctly Ricoh does not readily announce the end of a model line. Ricoh enthusiasts were still expecting a GXR update years after it went out of production. Finally about five years later Ricoh said that it was no longer in production (Obviosuly).

I suggest that possibly one reason why the GRIIIx is no longer available is not that they cannot keep up with demand (Something ridiculous in my Ricoh-book) but they have quietly canned it and it might take some time for present-day Ricoh people to admit it.

"but they have quietly canned it and it might take some time for present-day Ricoh people to admit it."

Tom, that's one of the most amusing statements I have read in a long time on this forum.

I do however, own the GF10, GX850, GX85, GX9, PEN F, and E-P7. Only two remain available at retailers.

It's not a good position to be for Ricoh when your only two cameras, the GRIII(x) have been practically unavailable for the past nine months.

It would have really helped your credibility if you had at least googled their product portfolio just ahead of making that comment.

I don't follow what you are saying here? I'm familiar with the current Ricoh product porfolio. I don't have plans to buy a Pentax, but know about the recent releases.

"your only two cameras" - that's not the extent of the portfolio

 

[UsherFellig]

I totally understand Gary. While it wasn't a conscious decision, I am starting to use my X100 series more and more, and my Oly ILCs less. I'm 71, so not a hipster!

You do not need to be born in the 90's or after to be a hipster. You can be one with 70 or 80 and just have not realized it yet.

If you have a fetish for top build quality even you do not really need it and do not mind the price, you like to keep things forever or for a very long time as you do not want to participate in the race of constant upgrading for the very last features you do not really need, but if you buy something you want it to be the latest tech has to offer because that will last you for longer, you are conscious of the environment and try to avoid waste, you have a preference for unique designs outside of the cultural mainstream, you like to be different than the majority and usually buy unconventional things, you possibly love vintage HiFi gear, you belong to the middle or upper socioeconomic class so you can afford this sort of lifestyle, and you like progressive politics, well then you perfectly qualify as a senior hipster. Go and get that X100, you will love it.

Hmmm.... I may be a hipster too.....

Ha, you meant the original X100, of course? Now, going for that one is hip. Or was, before the prices shot up. Grabbing a featherweight 24mp APSC Nikon D3500 or D5600 and popping a small prime onto it is hip. OTOH, stampeding to get in line for a lottery to buy the X00VI is not hip. It's fine and dandy to do it if you want that camera. But hip it is not. It's trendy--but it's not hip.

 

[AURA PA]

Leica invented the sexy compact camera. Fuji is riding the RF look with budget pricing. Canon sells quite a few cheap compacts (PowerShot 360 and 740). Ricoh has the GR IIIX which sells in relatively low volume. Olympus has the TG7 and TG6 both of which outsell the Ricoh. Panasonic has the ZS200 which sells well. Sony has the ZV's. Even Kodak is selling the FZ45 at the low end of the market. There is no room in the compact market for more models.

If that was meant to be parody, it didn't catch on with me. The GR IIIx is still sold out anywhere in my region, has been for months. We keep hearing that sales of the GR line and even more, the Theta, are what carries the Imaging division at Ricoh financially.

"sells in relatively low volume" therefore seems to be a dysphemism for "they can't make 'em fast enough". Dealers have even raised their prices again recently to almost (-4%) bring them back up to the original RRP two and a half years ago.

Let's be honest here - we're not used to seeing small electronics be this price stable in the last two decades. And I would not be surprised if the GR IV went up a bump from there.

In my mind, DPReview played a big hand in hyping up the Olympus TGs. I once looked at the actual data of failure by water ingress more deeply, and the TGs were not markedly different from some other models (but a few big brand models were rather bad). Today, I wouldn't be surprised if ChatGPT could just tell you.

The GH IIIx may be in short supply, that does not indicate high sales. Both the TG6 and TG7 outsell the GH globally. If Ricoh thinks they can achieve higher sales, it is up to them to produce.

You're missing a really big point here.

There are more sedans in the world than sports cars. Why? A sports car costs more. Or look at sales of cheap vs. expensive toilet paper. It all comes down to the same sh*t. Oly TG are under 500, Ricoh GR over 1000. One is an expensive throw-away toy let loose in the pool, the other is a premium compact.

There is nothing premium about the GR line. Pick up a Leica and you will understand. Even the X100 feels chintzy by comparison. The Q3 outsells the GR III handily at 6X the price.

You're still (wilfully?) missing the point. The baseline is always that cheap toilet paper will sell better. When we have a deviation, we can discuss it.

Yes, cheap X100VI outsells Q3 in volume, I understand.

Leica has just had a fantastic run with its entire product line the last few years, and I wish them well, but the Q3 is the more recently released camera vs. the GR line by a long shot, so you can't compare those numbers. Sales of camera models go down over time. Basics.

We can compare the Q2 or Q if you prefer. They all outsold the GR line in their day.

You seem to be at pains to compare anything you can drag by its hair with the Ricoh GR. What is your real beef?

I have no issue with the GR. Like most people, I don't think about it at all. My point is there is no room in the compact market for more models. Leica invented the sexy compact camera. Fuji is riding the RF look with budget pricing. Canon sells quite a few cheap compacts (PowerShot 360 and 740). Ricoh has the GR IIIX which sells in relatively low volume. Olympus has the TG7 and TG6 both of which outsell the Ricoh. Panasonic has the ZS200 which sells well. Sony has the ZV's. Even Kodak is selling the FZ45 at the low end of the market.

 

[UsherFellig]

I think more sexy fixed-lens 35mm and 28mm (or equiv.) is a mistake. Those niches are filled by Fuji, Leica, Ricoh GR, and smartphones. Not everybody who loves small, high-IQ, beutiful-design cameras wants to be locked into wide-angle all the time.

An updated, weather/dust-sealed GRiiix would be great for those who favor normal focal lengths. But what's really needed are more sexy compact-but-with-EVF ILC cameras. Updated PENs and PEN Lites. Updated Nikon Zfc with IBIS. Updated, more stylish Nikon Z30 with EVF or available accessory EVF. Small, stylish updated Canon ILCs like the first M.

And small lenses to go with the above

Ah, like Pentax Q, Nikon 1, or Canon EOS M?

Well, by small, "high-IQ" beautiful-design cameras I meant m43, APSC, or FF. I think that is where the market lies to the degree there is a market for "sexy compacts." Yes, I did mention Canon M. It seems bone-headed of them to can that series rather than update/augment it.

OTOH, I guess the counter-narrative might be that if you are a stills person who doesn't care about video, wildlife, fast motion . . . that little Canon RP/R8 FF may not be sexy, but it's the right weight and size with a small prime. It just needs to stay the same size/weight while gaining IBIS and a ginchy re-design.

 

[Promeneur]

Leica invented the sexy compact camera. Fuji is riding the RF look with budget pricing. Canon sells quite a few cheap compacts (PowerShot 360 and 740). Ricoh has the GR IIIX which sells in relatively low volume. Olympus has the TG7 and TG6 both of which outsell the Ricoh. Panasonic has the ZS200 which sells well. Sony has the ZV's. Even Kodak is selling the FZ45 at the low end of the market. There is no room in the compact market for more models.

If that was meant to be parody, it didn't catch on with me. The GR IIIx is still sold out anywhere in my region, has been for months. We keep hearing that sales of the GR line and even more, the Theta, are what carries the Imaging division at Ricoh financially.

"sells in relatively low volume" therefore seems to be a dysphemism for "they can't make 'em fast enough". Dealers have even raised their prices again recently to almost (-4%) bring them back up to the original RRP two and a half years ago.

Let's be honest here - we're not used to seeing small electronics be this price stable in the last two decades. And I would not be surprised if the GR IV went up a bump from there.

In my mind, DPReview played a big hand in hyping up the Olympus TGs. I once looked at the actual data of failure by water ingress more deeply, and the TGs were not markedly different from some other models (but a few big brand models were rather bad). Today, I wouldn't be surprised if ChatGPT could just tell you.

If I remember correctly Ricoh does not readily announce the end of a model line. Ricoh enthusiasts were still expecting a GXR update years after it went out of production. Finally about five years later Ricoh said that it was no longer in production (Obviosuly).

I suggest that possibly one reason why the GRIIIx is no longer available is not that they cannot keep up with demand (Something ridiculous in my Ricoh-book) but they have quietly canned it and it might take some time for present-day Ricoh people to admit it.

"but they have quietly canned it and it might take some time for present-day Ricoh people to admit it."

Tom, that's one of the most amusing statements I have read in a long time on this forum.

I do however, own the GF10, GX850, GX85, GX9, PEN F, and E-P7. Only two remain available at retailers.

It's not a good position to be for Ricoh when your only two cameras, the GRIII(x) have been practically unavailable for the past nine months.

It would have really helped your credibility if you had at least googled their product portfolio just ahead of making that comment.

I don't follow what you are saying here? I'm familiar with the current Ricoh product porfolio. I don't have plans to buy a Pentax, but know about the recent releases.

"your only two cameras" - that's not the extent of the portfolio

I can't recall anyone on the Ricoh forum mentioning the Theta Z1, SC2, X, WG80, WG90, WG6, or G900? Even for Ricoh fans they are not even on the radar. So, yeah, Ricoh really only has two cameras in my mind. Like OM System has four cameras, but still has old Olympus stock to clear out, three years after aquiring the company.

Pentax is entirely different conversation.

 

[James Stirling]

Pentax is entirely different conversation.

I saw recently that Pentax/Ricoh is bringing a film camera to market. Though personally if I wanted to go the film route there are numerous Pentax slr cameras around.

--
Jim Stirling:
“It is one thing to show a man that he is in error, and another to put him in possession of truth.” Locke
Feel free to tinker with any photos I post

 

[Promeneur]

If we're talking compact ILC's, then it doesn't have to be sexy or exotic, just an upgrade on the Pen-F, or the GX8, or the GX9 - something with OMDS AF, a good sensor, PDAF and some decent stabilization. That's what all the owners of every rangefinder-style camera ever sold by Olympus or Panasonic are waiting for, and if they sold it with a nice prime as the kit lens then they'll drag in other buyers who know nothing about m4/3 but like what they see

Maybe. However, I was at a Fujifilm touch and try event a couple of weeks ago and noticed there was no X-E4 cameras there, so I asked the Fujifilm rep and she said they've discontinued that line. I was surprised because it's a nice little camera even though it doesn't have the cool looking hybrid viewfinder like the X-Pro 3 or X100 series. So perhaps interchangeable lens retro rangefinder style cameras now need to have something unique like the hybrid viewfinder to get people's attention.

Hybrid viewfinder at least, or even better a real optical rangefinder, or a B&W sensor version, or milled out of a solid chunk of metal. Or all of that.... hmm wait, that's a Leica then....

A more affordable economy option is a tiltable viewfinder. Or for the very smallest cameras pop-up viewfinders can be quite sexy.

Who knows?

Who knows indeed. In 10 years today's contemporary camera designs may be called retro, and today's hipster & cult cameras will be the new normal and all what is left to buy

- and if my thinking is correct, this could include a price of under $1200, perhaps even less.

A body like this, with the OM5 and OM1 series for the more serious, and OMDS would be set just fine. If they create a fixed-lens compact, then anyone who owns some m4/3 lenses will curse them till Christmas, at least. I wouldn't buy one, anyway!

A Fujifilm X-E4 with a Voigtlander Ultron 27mm (FF 40mm) f/2.0 would interest me, but my pockets are not that deep and I doubt I could ever find the X-E4 anyway. Plus, I don't want to get into another system.

But why not?

Let me help you:

A system only matters, if you choose to use it as a system

Nobody says you have to, nobody can force you to

A system camera with just one lens "glued" onto it, becomes a compact camera

So, if you get that camera (likely used, as very hard to find new), and your dream Voigtländer 27/2.0, what you end up with is essentially a premium "custom" compact camera

No need to worry about that unthinkable heresy, shame, and betrayal of all your beliefs and values, defecting to another system. It's just another compact after all

And it's likely better for the particular use case you have in mind, then anything you could buy in m43

Watching the review by Chris Nicols the X-E4 interests me even less now. I did find one new for roughly US$1,400, but I won't pay that. I wouldn't buy it without picking it up, holding it, and having a 30 day unconditional return as when you buy a camera from B&H. I'm disappointed that the Voightlander 27mm is not available in a M43 mount.

I'm brand agnostic owning, Ricoh, Panasonic, and Olympus.

 

[James Stirling]

Panasonic made the sexiest quality compacts in the form of the GM series duo.

The market did not buy enough until the price came down to a point where Panasonic decided that they did not wish to repeat the experience.

The old adage rules - "small cameras are not as good as large cameras and so they should be cheap". As the market will not pay premium prices for these sexy cameras then they are built and marketed with less features. The market then refuses to buy tham because of missing features.

Example: the current G100 which gets regularly slammed against the wall because it lacks IBIS despite otherwise being a small capable camera priced well. "We need our small cameras to be fully featured (and cheap)" ... ha ha

Only large fully featured cameras are worth paying premium prices for. (Joke)

But if the G100 came with everything it would likely be more expensive than a G9II - small thing need great design to be made that small with every feature. Building tiny must be more expensive as well.

On the other hand Ricoh used to be accused of building the GRD/GR type as a hobby more than a business. I don't think anything has changed in that regard. The price of the GR has risen and presumably high enough to still return a profit with much tinier sales number than Panasonic would ever accept.

Tiny sales mean smaller production runs and less frequent major updates - not a bad thing really. They could almost make the GRIII in the garden shed.

"Ricoh’s annual operating profits soared 97 percent, in part driven by “ongoing profitability of camera business.” The company singled out cameras as a fiscal bright spot in the Other category. (Ricoh does not break out camera sales.)"

Read more at: https://www.pentaxforums.com/articl...t-increase-for-fiscal-2022.html#ixzz8UyHYj1mF

The "other" category at Ricoh amounts to 1% of revenue. They do not break out camera sales because it is wholly insignificant in that context. In their latest IR release the only mention of cameras in the 24 page document is this line: "sales increased due to steady growth of the camera business". Of course there are no actual numbers to put this in context. If they sold 100 units last year and 101 units this year, we achieved steady growth.

What share of JIP business do you think OM systems occupies bearing in mind they were recently a major part of a consortium paying $14B for Toshiba ? I think for the smaller market share camera companies it is more about establishing a niche where the business can be sustained rather than look for major growth which is simply not happening.

You are right we don't have numbers for Ricoh and nor do you, however given that Ricoh's revenue last years was $16.48 billion dollars that 1% of revenue for imaging still equates to around $164 million, not going to trouble Canon or Sony but it is about sustainability . Pentax has allegedly been dying for even longer than m43 . Though I have no experience with their digital cameras like many folk my first "real" cameras was a Pentax and I have a soft spot for them

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/RICOY/ricoh/revenue

"Ricoh revenue for the twelve months ending December 31, 2023 was $16.482B, a 7.39% increase year-over-year."

--
Jim Stirling:
“It is one thing to show a man that he is in error, and another to put him in possession of truth.” Locke
Feel free to tinker with any photos I post

 

[Promeneur]

Pentax is entirely different conversation.

I saw recently that Pentax/Ricoh is bringing a film camera to market. Though personally if I wanted to go the film route there are numerous Pentax slr cameras around.

Yes, I read that if we're lucky we'll see a Pentax film camera this summer. If memory serves me right there will be more than one. One will be an SLR and the other a half-frame rangefinder. I'm intrigued, especially by the rangefinder as I already have a Rollei 35 in excellent condition with a working light meter!

 

[cba_melbourne]

Leica invented the sexy compact camera. Fuji is riding the RF look with budget pricing. Canon sells quite a few cheap compacts (PowerShot 360 and 740). Ricoh has the GR IIIX which sells in relatively low volume. Olympus has the TG7 and TG6 both of which outsell the Ricoh. Panasonic has the ZS200 which sells well. Sony has the ZV's. Even Kodak is selling the FZ45 at the low end of the market. There is no room in the compact market for more models.

If that was meant to be parody, it didn't catch on with me. The GR IIIx is still sold out anywhere in my region, has been for months. We keep hearing that sales of the GR line and even more, the Theta, are what carries the Imaging division at Ricoh financially.

"sells in relatively low volume" therefore seems to be a dysphemism for "they can't make 'em fast enough". Dealers have even raised their prices again recently to almost (-4%) bring them back up to the original RRP two and a half years ago.

Let's be honest here - we're not used to seeing small electronics be this price stable in the last two decades. And I would not be surprised if the GR IV went up a bump from there.

In my mind, DPReview played a big hand in hyping up the Olympus TGs. I once looked at the actual data of failure by water ingress more deeply, and the TGs were not markedly different from some other models (but a few big brand models were rather bad). Today, I wouldn't be surprised if ChatGPT could just tell you.

The GH IIIx may be in short supply, that does not indicate high sales. Both the TG6 and TG7 outsell the GH globally. If Ricoh thinks they can achieve higher sales, it is up to them to produce.

You're missing a really big point here.

There are more sedans in the world than sports cars. Why? A sports car costs more.

But most sports cars in the world are just sedans off the sedan production line, with a sporty looking exterior design. Why? Most people cannot afford a real sports car.

Or look at sales of cheap vs. expensive toilet paper. It all comes down to the same sh*t. Oly TG are under 500, Ricoh GR over 1000. One is an expensive throw-away toy let loose in the pool, the other is a premium compact.

There is nothing premium about the GR line. Pick up a Leica and you will understand. Even the X100 feels chintzy by comparison. The Q3 outsells the GR III handily at 6X the price.

You have to be realistic. Few people can afford the Q3. Just like few people can afford a real sports car. Most of us have to make choices in our lives, and balance our wants with the means we have.

I too could buy a Ferrari with a Q3 in the glove box, but I would have to mortgage my house and live from hamburgers and cola in an unheated house for the rest of my life. That is not the lifestyle I am after. But a GR-III or an X100vi, those are treats that I realistically can afford.

What would you rather have, if you could afford only one each year:

- a Leica Q3

or

- a GR-III plus a modest 4 week overseas holiday trip

 

[James Stirling]

Pentax is entirely different conversation.

I saw recently that Pentax/Ricoh is bringing a film camera to market. Though personally if I wanted to go the film route there are numerous Pentax slr cameras around.

Yes, I read that if we're lucky we'll see a Pentax film camera this summer. If memory serves me right there will be more than one. One will be an SLR and the other a half-frame rangefinder. I'm intrigued, especially by the rangefinder as I already have a Rollei 35 in excellent condition with a working light meter!

Given the huge selection of film cameras available used from low end to high end and every form factor you could think up . It sounds like a hard sell to me but what do I know

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Panasonic made the sexiest quality compacts in the form of the GM series duo.

The market did not buy enough until the price came down to a point where Panasonic decided that they did not wish to repeat the experience.

The old adage rules - "small cameras are not as good as large cameras and so they should be cheap". As the market will not pay premium prices for these sexy cameras then they are built and marketed with less features. The market then refuses to buy tham because of missing features.

Example: the current G100 which gets regularly slammed against the wall because it lacks IBIS despite otherwise being a small capable camera priced well. "We need our small cameras to be fully featured (and cheap)" ... ha ha

Only large fully featured cameras are worth paying premium prices for. (Joke)

But if the G100 came with everything it would likely be more expensive than a G9II - small thing need great design to be made that small with every feature. Building tiny must be more expensive as well.

On the other hand Ricoh used to be accused of building the GRD/GR type as a hobby more than a business. I don't think anything has changed in that regard. The price of the GR has risen and presumably high enough to still return a profit with much tinier sales number than Panasonic would ever accept.

Tiny sales mean smaller production runs and less frequent major updates - not a bad thing really. They could almost make the GRIII in the garden shed.

"Ricoh’s annual operating profits soared 97 percent, in part driven by “ongoing profitability of camera business.” The company singled out cameras as a fiscal bright spot in the Other category. (Ricoh does not break out camera sales.)"

Read more at: https://www.pentaxforums.com/articl...t-increase-for-fiscal-2022.html#ixzz8UyHYj1mF

Should I care? I am happy to know that the sales of the GRIII are keeping this huge corporation afloat. I still have a considerable affection for Ricoh gear but I am not going to keep buying a camera type that I no longer have any need for.

I much prefer still to use the GR-sized body of the GM series which can be used with any M4/3 lens I choose to fit on it. This is despite such camera bodies being quite obsolete.

That does not compete with the primary use case of the Ricoh GR series, which is high-end pocketable cameras.

Sorry - I can't help myself.

The GRD/GR series were renowned for dust of sensor issues when pocketed. Plenty of how to information on how to disassemble the whole camera body to clean the sensor.

Not so sure why we would pocket a camera that provides so much trouble when dust appears on the sensor.

Not that my Ricoh GRD/GR bodies caused me such issues because I always wore them in a belt case. However the larger GR and its neat but thick leather holster case provided just that too much bulk to be worn continuously as I was prone to doing with the GRD models.

As a result special occasions only and the idea of a "pocketable" but hip worn camera-everywhere was done and dusted. So I ended up pocketing the camera a few times when I ran out of hands and quickly found that a bust bunny had wormed its way inside ....

It is interesting that I was a very active member of the Ricoh forum at one stage until I saw the advantage of the very similar sized GM1 which had been released and then fell in love with some of the standout lenses that I could mount on it. Followed by the GM5 which included a usable practical evf in what was also a very similar sized body. Ricoh is still working on the evf angle for the GR. Meanwhile the GM series is no more and I hope that Ricoh does in fact keep the GR series in production - preferably by incorporation a M4/3 mount so that I can use all my M4/3 lenses with it ....

 

[Charley123]

I'd love to own a highend, well featured small camera. Sexy would be a bonus. What I don't want is low quality or devoid of features.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Leica invented the sexy compact camera. Fuji is riding the RF look with budget pricing. Canon sells quite a few cheap compacts (PowerShot 360 and 740). Ricoh has the GR IIIX which sells in relatively low volume. Olympus has the TG7 and TG6 both of which outsell the Ricoh. Panasonic has the ZS200 which sells well. Sony has the ZV's. Even Kodak is selling the FZ45 at the low end of the market. There is no room in the compact market for more models.

If that was meant to be parody, it didn't catch on with me. The GR IIIx is still sold out anywhere in my region, has been for months. We keep hearing that sales of the GR line and even more, the Theta, are what carries the Imaging division at Ricoh financially.

"sells in relatively low volume" therefore seems to be a dysphemism for "they can't make 'em fast enough". Dealers have even raised their prices again recently to almost (-4%) bring them back up to the original RRP two and a half years ago.

Let's be honest here - we're not used to seeing small electronics be this price stable in the last two decades. And I would not be surprised if the GR IV went up a bump from there.

In my mind, DPReview played a big hand in hyping up the Olympus TGs. I once looked at the actual data of failure by water ingress more deeply, and the TGs were not markedly different from some other models (but a few big brand models were rather bad). Today, I wouldn't be surprised if ChatGPT could just tell you.

If I remember correctly Ricoh does not readily announce the end of a model line. Ricoh enthusiasts were still expecting a GXR update years after it went out of production. Finally about five years later Ricoh said that it was no longer in production (Obviosuly).

I suggest that possibly one reason why the GRIIIx is no longer available is not that they cannot keep up with demand (Something ridiculous in my Ricoh-book) but they have quietly canned it and it might take some time for present-day Ricoh people to admit it.

"but they have quietly canned it and it might take some time for present-day Ricoh people to admit it."

Tom, that's one of the most amusing statements I have read in a long time on this forum.

I do however, own the GF10, GX850, GX85, GX9, PEN F, and E-P7. Only two remain available at retailers.

It's not a good position to be for Ricoh when your only two cameras, the GRIII(x) have been practically unavailable for the past nine months.

It would have really helped your credibility if you had at least googled their product portfolio just ahead of making that comment.

I don't follow what you are saying here? I'm familiar with the current Ricoh product porfolio. I don't have plans to buy a Pentax, but know about the recent releases.

"your only two cameras" - that's not the extent of the portfolio

I can't recall anyone on the Ricoh forum mentioning the Theta Z1, SC2, X, WG80, WG90, WG6, or G900? Even for Ricoh fans they are not even on the radar. So, yeah, Ricoh really only has two cameras in my mind. Like OM System has four cameras, but still has old Olympus stock to clear out, three years after aquiring the company.

Pentax is entirely different conversation.

Pentax people dropped the very promising and innovative GXR project an all the high end compacts right back to the CX series excepting the GR.

The Theta camera was innovative and quirky enough to appeal to Pentax mores. The Pentax Q was a good try spoiled by the very high prices asked for the quite effective but on the plastic side of exotic lenses that were on offer. My Pentax Q interlude was based around the kit lens (exceptional) and a series of adapted lenses as the oem add on lenses were far too expensive to sell well ands never to this committed lens buyer. The "Toy" lenses offered were very well named but excruciatingly priced.

Perhaps they should have grafted the Q mount on to the highly developed GRDIV which was an astonishingly good high-level compact camera in its day and at the time had a higher rated small sensor. The firmware was so advanced as would make some present day ML camera manufacturers green with envy.

Then Pentax hobbled Ricoh into making an apparently very nice FF dslr body just when Canon and Nikon were looking for a way out of the dslr dead end street. So they now rule the roost of the dslr market - whatever remains of it.

Pentax seemed people seemed like a bunch of marketing flacks unable to read where the market was headed.

At the end of the day Ricoh-Panasonic has a bunch of quite good cameras playing into all but abandoned niche markets where there is next to no competition. For a company that 'owns' a number of lens mount systems it only has one that was made for ML use - the Q mount which has been abandoned.

I don't know who was or is still advising them but I suggest that they try reading some dpreview forums and getting their advice from there instead of spending up big on marketing companies that apparently had no idea .....