accurate colors? - dissapointed with new camera (Nikon Z5)

[LuckyJumper]

I just got my new Nikon Z5 and I'm a bit shocked how poor the color rendition appears to be. I had problems capturing subtle color moods in landcsape shots but first thought it had to do with wrong white balance. Then I tried out with this mainly white house, where the bottom concrete part of the building is supposed to be blue-grey - it looked like that clearly to my eyes. That didn't show in the viewfinder, neither on the lcd screen. So I checked in CaptureOne, and still, even when I play around with the white balance, I can't get the original colors as I remember them.







I am a landscape painter and I like to use my photography for painting, so if I can't trust the colors of my camera, it's really frustrating.

I found a review in a German magazine (FOTOTEST) measuring the color rendition of the Z5:







Farbsättigung means saturation., Farbwiedergabe means color rendition.. the text states "not really neutral, rather according to visual perception".

Can anyone interpret the charts? Does the answer to my problem lie there?

Is it too much to expect accurate color from a medium price range camera? (I can't afford a Hasselblad!)

Thank you!!

 

[Mako2011]

I just got my new Nikon Z5 and I'm a bit shocked how poor the color rendition appears to be.

Are you shooting RAW and what Picture profile are you using?

I had problems capturing subtle color moods in landcsape shots but first thought it had to do with wrong white balance.

Might be the case. To get accurate colors for product photography you really need to use a custom White Balance based on using a true WB card (not a grey card for exposure)

Then I tried out with this mainly white house, where the bottom concrete part of the building is supposed to be blue-grey -

That's likely not a true WB reference so can be difficult to use as one.

I am a landscape painter and I like to use my photography for painting, so if I can't trust the colors of my camera, it's really frustrating.

I found a review in a German magazine (FOTOTEST) measuring the color rendition of the Z5:

Z5 can produce very accurate colors...but for best results you need to accurately set WB with a true WB reference or perhaps use the ColorChecker system. Also note...if judging using a monitor...the monitor needs to also be accurately color calibrated for the color space you are using.

--
My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)

 

[Writern]

I just got my new Nikon Z5 and I'm a bit shocked how poor the color rendition appears to be.

Are you shooting RAW and what Picture profile are you using?

I had problems capturing subtle color moods in landcsape shots but first thought it had to do with wrong white balance.

Might be the case. To get accurate colors for product photography you really need to use a custom White Balance based on using a true WB card (not a grey card for exposure)

Then I tried out with this mainly white house, where the bottom concrete part of the building is supposed to be blue-grey -

That's likely not a true WB reference so can be difficult to use as one.

I am a landscape painter and I like to use my photography for painting, so if I can't trust the colors of my camera, it's really frustrating.

I found a review in a German magazine (FOTOTEST) measuring the color rendition of the Z5:

Z5 can produce very accurate colors...but for best results you need to accurately set WB with a true WB reference or perhaps use the ColorChecker system. Also note...if judging using a monitor...the monitor needs to also be accurately color calibrated for the color space you are using.

--
My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)

I use a Nikon Z6 with «Flat» profile. But things happen with color when I import RAW file into Capture One. I normally chose a particular cameraprofile in Capture One. Not necessarily the Z6 profile, and always make color adjustments there. When I look at the jpegs from the camera, all looks fine.

 

[skyrunr]

If only photography and color reproduction was that simple. I don't think it is the camera. Your post doesn't include several key variables regarding color management. Including a shared link to the RAW/NEF file that would answer most of those questions.

However, I would start with using NX Studio. Out of my own curiosity, what you were using before the Z5?

 

[Mister NHB]

Before anything, you need to make sure you have a decent monitor and it's color calibrated.

 

[AshleyMC]

What were the light condition and direction at the moment of exposure capturing?

Sunny? Cloudy? Overcast? In the shade?

Early morning, morning, around noon, afternoon, late afternoon, early evening?

10 different scenes? Thoughtfully selected, not random.

Your camera settings? Raw + SOOC JPEG with full EXIF?

 

[peripheralfocus]

I am a landscape painter and I like to use my photography for painting, so if I can't trust the colors of my camera, it's really frustrating.

Almost all consumer cameras are designed to, by default, provide pleasing colors, not colorimetrically accurate ones, even if the white balance is perfect. The Z5 is not in any way unusual in this respect.

People who need colorimetrically or perceptually accurate colors in digital images (museum art, product catalogs, paint manufacturers etc) must implement a fairly rigorously color managed workflow. In its ultimate form, that means measuring and compensating for the color response characteristics of all your software and devices, from camera and lights to processing software, monitors, printers, printing materials, and all the rest.

All that said, if you shoot raw, you have the ability to easily re-mix your colors, like mixing colors on your painter's palette. So one thing you could start with is to shoot some raw test images, get your white balance right (you can bracket this), and then experiment with all the different color profiles that your software supplies. Maybe one of them will get you close to what you need most of the time. So-called "neutral" profiles are often more colorimetrically/perceptually accurate than default "standard" profiles.

Note that if you're not using a decent quality calibrated and profiled monitor, it will all be very hit or miss, and likely inconsistent from scene to scene.

The Z5 is essentially just as capable of producing accurate colors, if used in a well-managed workflow, as any other consumer digital camera out there. So you can do it with your camera, with some effort.

 

[Mako2011]

I use a Nikon Z6 with «Flat» profile.

Which may or may not give accurate colors if the WB used isn't accurate for the light conditions

But things happen with color when I import RAW file into Capture One. I normally chose a particular cameraprofile in Capture One.

Which again...may not result in accurate color unless you are also using an accurate WB and a calibrated color space workflow

 

[sirhawkeye64]

I just got my new Nikon Z5 and I'm a bit shocked how poor the color rendition appears to be. I had problems capturing subtle color moods in landcsape shots but first thought it had to do with wrong white balance. Then I tried out with this mainly white house, where the bottom concrete part of the building is supposed to be blue-grey - it looked like that clearly to my eyes. That didn't show in the viewfinder, neither on the lcd screen. So I checked in CaptureOne, and still, even when I play around with the white balance, I can't get the original colors as I remember them.



I am a landscape painter and I like to use my photography for painting, so if I can't trust the colors of my camera, it's really frustrating.

I found a review in a German magazine (FOTOTEST) measuring the color rendition of the Z5:



Farbsättigung means saturation., Farbwiedergabe means color rendition.. the text states "not really neutral, rather according to visual perception".

Can anyone interpret the charts? Does the answer to my problem lie there?

Is it too much to expect accurate color from a medium price range camera? (I can't afford a Hasselblad!)

Thank you!!

Accurate Color is something that's a bit of a challenge and I'd say that for each brand, there is some colors that may not be 100% accurate as we are converting electrons to light values and color values and trying to reproduce those colors, and there has to be (and is) some room for error in that process. I'm sure it's more detailed than this obviously but if you need the most accurate color, then use tools such as a color checker or white balance card to get proper color or as accurate as you can get with a camera (or you can do this and create a custom profile). Color will NEVER be 100% accurate to what you saw with your eyes, no matter how much money you spend on the camera or whatever brand camera or model you get.

There are methods to get the color more accurate but it will requires some of the tools I've mentioned (and others have too), such as the white balance card or a color checker. Doing a custom camera profile in your RAW processor may help too (if you get the X-Rite color management systems this can help you get the most accurate colors possible, but they aren't cheap kits).

--
NOTE: If I don't reply to a direct comment in the forums, it's likely I unsubscribed from the thread/article..

 

[Supisiche]

OP, your camera is faulty, give it to me

 

[sirhawkeye64]

OP, your camera is faulty, give it to me

If color accuracy is off (from what human vision is), then every camera out there is faulty according to this logic.

I'd say unless one is doing product photography or perhaps portraiture (two things where color accuracy is probably more important) as long as they are CLOSE enough as a starting point for post processing, I'd say things are generally fine. I find in most of my images, I'm tweaking color anyway, so it may not be 100% representative of what was actually there (now I'm not necessarily doing anything crazy like magenta grass but I might add some pop to greens and blues, which departs from the accuracy of reality from a color standpoint).

--
NOTE: If I don't reply to a direct comment in the forums, it's likely I unsubscribed from the thread/article..

 

[j_photo]

On my monitor, your image has a green cast. This could be in part due to light reflected off the grass in the foreground or it could suggest that you need to adjust your white balance either in camera or in post.

One's memory of colors is hugely subjective. If there was a green cast in the scene it's quite likely that you would not perceive it because your brain knows that a white building is not greenish. You really can't trust your memory in a situation like this.

As others have already said, if you shoot raw, then this is easily correctable in post. And it's true that managing accurate color can get complicated. But for starters I think there are a few essential but not difficult steps: 1) Shoot a grey card or a color checker during the photo session, to use as a reference later. 2) Don't use auto WB, so that this setting isn't changing randomly from shot to shot. 3) When editing the photos, use a monitor with accurate color, preferably color calibrated.

 

[thinkinginimages]

I just got my new Nikon Z5 and I'm a bit shocked how poor the color rendition appears to be. I had problems capturing subtle color moods in landcsape shots but first thought it had to do with wrong white balance. Then I tried out with this mainly white house, where the bottom concrete part of the building is supposed to be blue-grey - it looked like that clearly to my eyes. That didn't show in the viewfinder, neither on the lcd screen. So I checked in CaptureOne, and still, even when I play around with the white balance, I can't get the original colors as I remember them.



I am a landscape painter and I like to use my photography for painting, so if I can't trust the colors of my camera, it's really frustrating.

I found a review in a German magazine (FOTOTEST) measuring the color rendition of the Z5:



Farbsättigung means saturation., Farbwiedergabe means color rendition.. the text states "not really neutral, rather according to visual perception".

Can anyone interpret the charts? Does the ans The pawer to my problem lie there?

Is it too much to expect accurate color from a medium price range camera? (I can't afford a Hasselblad!)

Thank you!!

This is going to be hard to explain. I suspect that isn't a white balance issue but a gamma issue. On my inexpensive Chromebook, which isn't color calibrated, I can see a very subtle cool grey, maybe +2 or +3 of blue, at the base of the building. The planking at the top is almost neutral, with maybe a point or two of yellow.

That's very subtle stuff.

I don't know what display/monitor you're using. I wouldn't rely on the camera screen, either. But, if you have a gamma setting, try 2.2.

 

[Writern]

I use a Nikon Z6 with «Flat» profile.

Which may or may not give accurate colors if the WB used isn't accurate for the light conditions

But things happen with color when I import RAW file into Capture One. I normally chose a particular cameraprofile in Capture One.

Which again...may not result in accurate color unless you are also using an accurate WB and a calibrated color space workflow

 

[Hippo Graius]

...I can see a very subtle cool grey, maybe +2 or +3 of blue, at the base of the building. The planking at the top is almost neutral, with maybe a point or two of yellow.

That's very subtle stuff.

with the blue contaminated by grass reflections... but yes, red is generally the loser there... except the two obviously yellowed areas! yeah, subtle

PC looks standard, no? it would produce mapping similar to the german diagram...

 

[Mako2011]

I use a Nikon Z6 with «Flat» profile.

Which may or may not give accurate colors if the WB used isn't accurate for the light conditions

But things happen with color when I import RAW file into Capture One. I normally chose a particular cameraprofile in Capture One.

Which again...may not result in accurate color unless you are also using an accurate WB and a calibrated color space workflow

Sure. But for me, the jpegs are all right when they come straight out of the camera.

Define "alright" . Have you compared with a color chart for actual accuracy? The OP is looking the accuracy required for product photography

So WB is ok. It’s when the NEFs are transfered into Capture One colors seems off from time to time.

Yes...a mismatch in color space workflow or Picture Profile

 

[thinkinginimages]

I don't want to get into judging the image after seeing it on a Chromebook. Ideally, I would have wandered over to my editing computer before commenting, but it's been "that kind of day". I simply wanted to infer that "gamma matters".

 

[Hippo Graius]

I don't want to get into judging the image after seeing it on a Chromebook. Ideally, I would have wandered over to my editing computer before commenting, but it's been "that kind of day". I simply wanted to infer that "gamma matters".

hey, yours was a great reply i should have "replied to thread" i guess, not to the one that inspired me all best!

 

[anotherMike]

You haven't given us anywhere near enough information.

1. what WB did you use?
2. what picture control did you use (this would matter if you're using any Nikon software to view the image)

Things are further complicated as such:

1. No camera provides, by default, accurate colors in a colorimetric sense. They provide pleasing colors.
   1. If your choice of raw converter is different than Nikon, then you add into this the particular raw converters interpretation of both color and/or WB.
2. Big issues:
   1. Most monitors are not accurate. Truly accurate, hardware calibrated ones are not cheap, yet if you're not using one, you aren't really in a position to have opinions about the color you see on the screen, because you don't possess a tool good enough to make judgement.
      1. So instead, since you probably don't have a calibrated Eizo, NEC spectraview, HP dreamcolor, or Benq, try *measuring* the color
         1. In your jpeg, the white base and the majority of the centrally located siding measures pretty close to neutral. If that's not the color in real life, odds are your WB is off (I'd be guessing you used some form of auto WB)
   2. Not everyones color discrimination/accuracy of color vision is the same, and it doesn't matter that you're a painter either. When I was a student at (photo college) RIT, we took the physical 100 hue munsell color test in a controlled lighting environment. Nobody scored perfectly, and even among photo students, who you think would have "better than average" color perceptive abilities, there was a wider range of perception/discrimination than you would think.
      1. So again, when people start talking about color accuracy, we have to consider that too.

Other folks have given you suggestions that I'll suggest. If you're going to use any Nikon provided raw conversion software, or use in-camera jpegs 'cause you're not shooting raw, choose one of the flatter profiles - they're going to be a bit more accurate, although you'll probably find them low in contrast. And this will apply for other camera brands too, not just Nikon, so changing brands isn't the answer. If you really want accurate color, you're going to have to get the tools required to judge color (unless you want to look at things by the numbers only), which isn't cheap, get into a color managed workflow, and if you're really insanely dependent on purely accurate color, get into a color profiled workflow. None of this is something fast/cheap or easy.

My days speaking German are over 50 years ago, so can't help you there.

 

[LuckyJumper]

wow, so many answers in only 24 hours, that's amazing. Thank you so much everybody, I appreciated it! Before I answer individual replys, I'll make a list of all the relevant aspects of the problem:

- I do shoot in RAW and chose best quility available (14 bit color depht, AdobeRGB, lossless compressed)

- I do use a semi-professional, relatiely new monitor and I am going to give it a first calibration soon (never done it before)

- I did play around with white balance in CaptureOne, going in all of the 4 directions possible (magenta-green, blue-yellow). When the grey concrete does have a bluish hue, the rest isn't right at all. So all in all, that didn't help.

- The problem appears on four monitors similarly: the camera's EVF, the camera's LCD, my everyday laptop computer, my editing monitor - none showed the bluish grey I saw. That's why I suspected the camera color sccience, trying to render "pleasing" images.

- my human color perception: I became aware of the unaccurate color rendering on spot, while taking the posted picture! Directly comparing the camera and the scene in front of me - so memory is not the issue here.

- the scene was cloudy, overcast, around noon, so no complicated light situation.

- I have tried using a grey card on one trip, but that didn't help at all, white balance was ridiculous, probably since there were so many light sources from different angles (sky, setting sun, reflections from vegetations or mountains etc. I'm not sure a differnt type of card, like a colorchecker would be the answer. That's why...

- ...my goal is to be able to check the right white balance and color rendition on spot on the camera screen/EVF! (The LCD and the EVF can be modified...should they)

- I changed the profile on the camera to neutral and even further reduced contrast by hand to have more neutral picture on the screens. I am aware that you never get to see the RAW picture on your camera screens but a brand made jpeg preview.

- a professional "color workflow" feels like a burden to me, but I might tackle it one day, maybe I have to get a book or take a class. But then again: I don't work in studios but outside with light from different angles, I am not sure it would work.

- I used a Fuji X-S10 before. I bought it becouse Fuji combined with C1 is supposed to make great colors, but I really dind't like the greens in nature, my old Canon 500D did better...(not the only reason I migrated!)