New: Jan Wegener on Nikon Z8, Z9, vs. Canon R5

[ProDude]

The long story short is that I eventually came to the conclusion that I think a huge part of this is lens dependent. In fact, in spite of the near universal opinion that the FTZ adapters work extremely well (and I'd agree that they do), I recently got my first native Z lens (after almost 3 years!) and it seems to AF a lot better than my F mount lenses do. In short, I wonder if part of the phenomenon you're describing comes down to something like this.

Considering that I'm using 2 of the finest lense in the Z and S lineup sure, it may be one reason I'm getting such great results. I will NEVER use a adapter on this camera I don't care how good a result some may report. I'm native all the way at this point and it's by NO means a phenomenon. Its just pure correct setup coupled with responsive lenses doing what the camera is tell it to do reliably. At least in my case it is.

 

[starbase218]

To my knowledge, the only guy who routinely does reviews of AF performance for anything more than birds (or a sad 2 min effort consisting of the reviewer's coworker doing the awkward middle-age jog towards the camera) is that Froknows guy, but he is less than unbiased.

I don't think you've followed Fro long enough or viewed enough of his content to understand his desire for Nikon to do better. I'd have to say there's more bias against is appearance and entertaining delivery than anything else. LOL I personally love the sniff and wind tests. I love the smell of knew electronics, and I get paid to setup new electronics all the time.

I can't lie, if he offered a sarcastic "I SHOOT JPG" t-shirt I'd buy one. I personally shoot both as the situation calls for. Until you've used several cameras side-by-side, as I have thanks to my Adorama VIP account, you don't know what you're missing.

I've watched enough of his videos to know he is biased against Nikon. Does that mean he has no valid criticisms against Nikon? No. Because he does. But at the same time, he IS biased against Nikon.

You realize that he is a long time Nikon shooter? He probably would be more than happy to go back to Nikon if some of the issues he mentions get fixed.

Fro doesn’t even take the time to learn how to use the Z system. Constantly in the worst focus mode most of the time. He may not be bias (however I find it odd that after canon gave him hundreds of cameras to give away he ditched Sony for canon) but his skill with a Z camera is juvenile. So his opinion doesn’t mean much to me.

Isn’t the whole point, and what Jan also says in this video, that Canon’s AF is easier to set up and use?

I’ve heard the argument “you need to learn the camera/technique/etc” before. I learned it when I was still using Pentax. People would assume I used full auto mode, spray and pray, etc. Or have a faulty camera or lens. For some time I was doubting myself, because of that feedback. Then I tried a Nikon DSLR and it almost felt like cheating. But I changed systems because the end result is what matters to me.

I probably won’t change brands because I don’t think the difference is quite as substantive. Plus I think it’s a smaller niche (wildlife). But if I’m wrong I might have to reevaluate my plans. I don’t plan to make the same mistake again that I did with Pentax.

 

[starbase218]

I post this not to renew debate on current Nikons vs. Canons (or Sonys), but for those who visit this forum because they haven't yet decided on a camera system or are thinking of switching.

I find Jan Wegener's videos entirely balanced, and he "shows his work," even though he benefits from clicks like almost everyone on YouTube.

Bottom line: Nikon wins going away in certain categories, as does Canon.

Go to the last couple of minutes for his summary if that's all you're interested in.

Why did Nikon make the Z8 so big and with that battery too! The evf is hardly anything to write home about and why is it Nikon cannot get the af right on mirrorless, its very weird.

Because people wanted a bigger, sturdier pro body?

Wasn't that what they said to justify the Z9, at least that came with a decent battery pack.

The EVF is blackout free and great, and the AF is superior to almost all other camera bodies (not all, but most, calm down critics).

It doesn't really seem to be that way by impartial reviewers

There is a bunch of things you could complain about with the Z8 but you managed to pick the silliest ones?

What, the low res evf, the poor battery life and sheer physical size of it are silly, hmmmmmmm, not to mention the continuous complaints regarding the af.

If these are your conclusions, that’s fine. I disagree with most of them, so I don’t really care.

 

[starbase218]

I love my Z8 and Z9 for sure!

But comparing these with my sony a1 , I can assure you that the focus acquisition in fast and far wildlife subjects is much better with the sony cameras.This is clearly seen already for BIF.

This what all impartial reviewers are saying, Nikon is still lagging.

Maybe you should also watch the part of the video that is about video autofocus. And perhaps stop by the part about video stabilization as well.

Maybe it’s a case of cognitive dissonance, and that’s why nobody’s talking about it, but Nikon appears to be the better choice for video.

 

[HRS]

I love my Z8 and Z9 for sure!

But comparing these with my sony a1 , I can assure you that the focus acquisition in fast and far wildlife subjects is much better with the sony cameras.This is clearly seen already for BIF.

This what all impartial reviewers are saying, Nikon is still lagging.

Maybe you should also watch the part of the video that is about video autofocus. And perhaps stop by the part about video stabilization as well.

Maybe it’s a case of cognitive dissonance, and that’s why nobody’s talking about it, but Nikon appears to be the better choice for video.

First of all, Jan's video is Nikon vs. Canon, not Sony.

Second, Orsonneke seems to talking about stills performance, not video.

Third, starbase218 refers to Nikon as "the better choice for video." This is largely confirmed by Jan's video, but I think the topic is stills AF.

Now, in Jan's video, at 9:00, he shows Nikon's struggle with BIF against a waves background. Again, this is about stills.

From the transcript:
…when it

comes to action photography this is

where we see the biggest differences

between these cameras especially against

busier backgrounds or water backgrounds

the Nikon cameras struggle with Canon

seems to be able to identify the subject

and just stick to the subject without

being distracted by like waves in a

background for instance

bird didn't fill a large portion of your

frame it seemed like both the Z8 and the

z9 just couldn't identify what's the

water what's the subject what do you

actually want me to focus on then that

would just jump off from the seagull

onto the water back onto the bird and

back onto the water so it was quite

difficult to focus on anything with the

water background the further away in the

background the

it was for the cameras to nail the focus

and I still got some amazing shots but

overall it was a little bit of a

struggle I wasn't quite sure how the R5

would perform in a similar setting but I

took it there the other day and the

differences were quite dramatic there's

an example of this gannet here for

instance it's tiny in my frame but the

R5 picked it up without any issues and

tracked it a long time against the wave

never once jumping onto the wave and

back to the bird it just just stick to

the bird without problems at all this is

definitely a trend I saw with the R5 at

that Cliff this is the biggest

difference for me between the Nikon and

the Canon autofocus at the moment the

Canon over the focus just seems to know

this is the subject so it just tracks it

and it doesn't get distracted by

anything else coming into your frame or

the waist behind the bird where's the

Nikon autofocus doesn't quite seem to

know what you actually want from it and

jumps on and off a lot more so while the

Canon autofocus seems to still have a

little bit of an edge in subject

recognition and being sort of certain

what to track both of these autofocus

systems deliver fantastic results in the

field and I wouldn't have any hesitation

using the Nikon autofocusing system but

at the same time in direct comparison

Canon definitely stands out at still

having a bit of an edge also because

it's so much easier to set up and to use

Nikon definitely has one advantage

though when it comes to action

photography and that is the blackout

free shooting in the viewfinder with

Canon it's a bit more of a slideshow

whereas with the Nikon cameras you get

nice and clear views and it's much

easier to track to birds…

 

[Jean Daniel Villiers]

I love my Z8 and Z9 for sure!

But comparing these with my sony a1 , I can assure you that the focus acquisition in fast and far wildlife subjects is much better with the sony cameras.This is clearly seen already for BIF.

Is it and by what standard, I mean the I think so, or I heard so. This is a French shooter camera reviewer who actually owns a the A1 which is trounced by the Nikon and the Canon. These are side by side and not some impression.

 

[Jean Daniel Villiers]

you mean like this ohhh the A1 focuses on everything except the bird.

 

[TOF guy]

I love my Z8 and Z9 for sure!

But comparing these with my sony a1 , I can assure you that the focus acquisition in fast and far wildlife subjects is much better with the sony cameras.This is clearly seen already for BIF.

Is it and by what standard, I mean the I think so, or I heard so. This is a French shooter camera reviewer who actually owns a the A1 which is trounced by the Nikon and the Canon. These are side by side and not some impression.

Thank you for the link. It's as objective as it gets, with observations well-supported by the tests.

But the conclusion is more nuanced than one "trounces" the other. The performance is very close among the 3, and in some cases the A1 is top, in others the R3 or Z99 is/are slightly better, The R3 is more consistent than the other 2.

Interestingly, the facts do not support the significant superiority that the A1 or R3 are supposed to have over the Z9 for human and BIF AF-C, with the exception of low llight photography, where indeed the Z9 performance as tested is abysmal.

 

[RaindropDroptop]

I love my Z8 and Z9 for sure!

But comparing these with my sony a1 , I can assure you that the focus acquisition in fast and far wildlife subjects is much better with the sony cameras.This is clearly seen already for BIF.

Is it and by what standard, I mean the I think so, or I heard so. This is a French shooter camera reviewer who actually owns a the A1 which is trounced by the Nikon and the Canon. These are side by side and not some impression.

Thank you for the link. It's as objective as it gets, with observations well-supported by the tests.

But the conclusion is more nuanced than one "trounces" the other. The performance is very close among the 3, and in some cases the A1 is top, in others the R3 or Z99 is/are slightly better, The R3 is more consistent than the other 2.

Interestingly, the facts do not support the significant superiority that the A1 or R3 are supposed to have over the Z9 for human and BIF AF-C, with the exception of low llight photography, where indeed the Z9 performance as tested is abysmal.

 

[RaindropDroptop]

To my knowledge, the only guy who routinely does reviews of AF performance for anything more than birds (or a sad 2 min effort consisting of the reviewer's coworker doing the awkward middle-age jog towards the camera) is that Froknows guy, but he is less than unbiased.

I don't think you've followed Fro long enough or viewed enough of his content to understand his desire for Nikon to do better. I'd have to say there's more bias against is appearance and entertaining delivery than anything else. LOL I personally love the sniff and wind tests. I love the smell of knew electronics, and I get paid to setup new electronics all the time.

I can't lie, if he offered a sarcastic "I SHOOT JPG" t-shirt I'd buy one. I personally shoot both as the situation calls for. Until you've used several cameras side-by-side, as I have thanks to my Adorama VIP account, you don't know what you're missing.

I've watched enough of his videos to know he is biased against Nikon. Does that mean he has no valid criticisms against Nikon? No. Because he does. But at the same time, he IS biased against Nikon.

You realize that he is a long time Nikon shooter? He probably would be more than happy to go back to Nikon if some of the issues he mentions get fixed.

Fro doesn’t even take the time to learn how to use the Z system. Constantly in the worst focus mode most of the time. He may not be bias (however I find it odd that after canon gave him hundreds of cameras to give away he ditched Sony for canon) but his skill with a Z camera is juvenile. So his opinion doesn’t mean much to me.

Isn’t the whole point, and what Jan also says in this video, that Canon’s AF is easier to set up and use?

I’ve heard the argument “you need to learn the camera/technique/etc” before. I learned it when I was still using Pentax. People would assume I used full auto mode, spray and pray, etc. Or have a faulty camera or lens. For some time I was doubting myself, because of that feedback. Then I tried a Nikon DSLR and it almost felt like cheating. But I changed systems because the end result is what matters to me.

I probably won’t change brands because I don’t think the difference is quite as substantive. Plus I think it’s a smaller niche (wildlife). But if I’m wrong I might have to reevaluate my plans. I don’t plan to make the same mistake again that I did with Pentax.

There’s a difference … Jan finds an issue and figures out a workaround like how he started using a Custom size to eliminate his issues (earlier video). Fro will keep doing the same thing over and over and tries to use the Z camera like a Sony. The systems are different. There’s not necessarily a correct way a system should be designed.

 

[Clayton1985]

The reason we don't have the Z6III that you [skyrunr] want is because Nikon and a pretty big percentage of their DSLR user base refused to face reality causing Nikon to be several years behind the competition.

I don't get it. If Nikon's DSLR user base is the problem, then why didn't Nikon discontinue all DSLRs when the Z6/Z7 came out? That surely would have forced us to "face reality."

Your reply has nothing to do with the point. I didn't once mention anything about Nikon DSLR users or Nikon abrubtly abandoning DSLRs. It's a process.... a process that needed to start years earlier and both Nikon and a hefty percentage of the Nikon DSLR user base stubbornly resisted at every turn. Go back to the Nikon DSLR forum and read comments from 2013 until the release of the Z7 and you can find an almost unlimited amount of evidence to support this.

The Df isn't the problem, it's the lost years and the monumental task Nikon has had trying to close the gap. They've done a pretty decent job since they got serious but as you've noted they still have work to do.

Yes, Nikon has done a "decent job"...if you're okay with a $4000 entry-level price point (for a Z8). Other major brands have significantly lower price points for "decent" performance, and that may be part of the problem.

Yes and I already explained why in the first paragraph. They have been playing catch up for years now so blame Nikon's stubborness along with a big percentage of the DSLR user base.

 

[Clayton1985]

I don't get it. If Nikon's DSLR user base is the problem, then why didn't Nikon discontinue all DSLRs when the Z6/Z7 came out? That surely would have forced us to "face reality."

I didn't know nikon could snap all the DSLRs out of existence.

That's me..part of the Prob. For me personally I just really prefer a OVF over an EVF by a large margin...even the latest model. So as a new D850 is cheap now, I already have great glass for it, and really no image I can take with a latest Z body I couldn't with the D850...just makes sense for now for me. All the extra cash I saved not upgrading (for now) goes into photo trips

I'm not criticizing someone for preferring OVFs, the D850, etc as long as you aren't now complaining about Nikon mirrorless being behind the competition. I'm sure there are some Nikon DSLR users that are now moving to Nikon mirrorless and they accept that Nikon has been playing catch up because they waited too long, but the longtime DSLR users that fought the move to mirrorless at every turn and now complain are 100% part of the problem.

 

[mosswings]

I don't get it. If Nikon's DSLR user base is the problem, then why didn't Nikon discontinue all DSLRs when the Z6/Z7 came out? That surely would have forced us to "face reality."

I didn't know nikon could snap all the DSLRs out of existence.

That's me..part of the Prob. For me personally I just really prefer a OVF over an EVF by a large margin...even the latest model. So as a new D850 is cheap now, I already have great glass for it, and really no image I can take with a latest Z body I couldn't with the D850...just makes sense for now for me. All the extra cash I saved not upgrading (for now) goes into photo trips

I'm not criticizing someone for preferring OVFs, the D850, etc as long as you aren't now complaining about Nikon mirrorless being behind the competition. I'm sure there are some Nikon DSLR users that are now moving to Nikon mirrorless and they accept that Nikon has been playing catch up because they waited too long, but the longtime DSLR users that fought the move to mirrorless at every turn and now complain are 100% part of the problem.

I remember this famous quote from Steve Jobs:
“A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them.”
Forbes goes on:
'I actually think Jobs was right but only in the very narrow category to which he aspired: where his products, such as the Mac, iPod, iPhone and iPad, either redefined or created product categories. That’s not the domain in which most businesses play. Remember also that Jobs backed up his unique insights with an enormously expensive creative process populated by world-class designers. Without Jobs’ talents and the unparalleled creative team and processes that he built around himself, you won’t get away with doing no market research and not listening to your customers.'
The point is this: the job of a tech company is to build the things that the customer base will need, not that they can see that they want. It's a risky way of doing business, but essential. Nikon is famous for not listening to anyone except its ambassadors and key NPS pros, so yes there's perhaps a bit of old fogeyism in the Nikon customer base...but they don't necessarily have the perspective of a giant corporation with connections into every corner of the imaging and communications world that can tell them where they need to be putting their R&D...
Oh, gee. That would be Sony, and Canon. Nikon may have been first with ILC video capability (D90), but it had no presence in video. It had no presence in communicating electronic equipment. It has been, first and foremost, a stills optics company building products for a film-era workflow. Canon and Sony are not innocent of this myopia, but I think were much more aware of the tectonic shifts occurring in the imaging and communications market over the first 2 decades of this century.
The job of a tech company is to lead. Claiming that you were producing what your customers wanted is simply an excuse. Customers have power, but not that much.

 

[starbase218]

I love my Z8 and Z9 for sure!

But comparing these with my sony a1 , I can assure you that the focus acquisition in fast and far wildlife subjects is much better with the sony cameras.This is clearly seen already for BIF.

This what all impartial reviewers are saying, Nikon is still lagging.

Maybe you should also watch the part of the video that is about video autofocus. And perhaps stop by the part about video stabilization as well.

Maybe it’s a case of cognitive dissonance, and that’s why nobody’s talking about it, but Nikon appears to be the better choice for video.

First of all, Jan's video is Nikon vs. Canon, not Sony.

I know. Not sure why you're saying this.

Second, Orsonneke seems to talking about stills performance, not video.

Third, starbase218 refers to Nikon as "the better choice for video." This is largely confirmed by Jan's video, but I think the topic is stills AF.

If that's understood by anyone, I guess that's fine. As an outsider it's not obvious at all.

Now, in Jan's video, at 9:00, he shows Nikon's struggle with BIF against a waves background. Again, this is about stills.

I know, I've seen the video. But I've also seen And-roid, who I was replying to, commenting to the start post with statements such as "Nikon cannot get the af right on mirrorless". That start post was about the entire video, which covers both stills and video.

He's made other comments on Nikon's cameras here too, like commenting on the battery life, while the Canon R5 is actually worse for stills.

From the transcript:
[cut]

This is unnecessary. I've seen the entire video. Thank you.

 

[Mako2011]

I don't get it. If Nikon's DSLR user base is the problem, then why didn't Nikon discontinue all DSLRs when the Z6/Z7 came out? That surely would have forced us to "face reality."

I didn't know nikon could snap all the DSLRs out of existence.

That's me..part of the Prob. For me personally I just really prefer a OVF over an EVF by a large margin...even the latest model. So as a new D850 is cheap now, I already have great glass for it, and really no image I can take with a latest Z body I couldn't with the D850...just makes sense for now for me. All the extra cash I saved not upgrading (for now) goes into photo trips

I'm not criticizing someone for preferring OVFs, the D850, etc as long as you aren't now complaining about Nikon mirrorless being behind the competition.

No I did not complain...no need to point that out to me?

I'm sure there are some Nikon DSLR users that are now moving to Nikon mirrorless and they accept that Nikon has been playing catch up....

That's a bit subjective, IMO. An Objective case could be made that Nikon already "caught up" as the tech/features separating the brands is practically very very close. In practical terms, differences are pretty small now

--
My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)

 

[HRS]

(Excerpting I think in context)...

I'm sure there are some Nikon DSLR users that are now moving to Nikon mirrorless and they accept that Nikon has been playing catch up because they waited too long, but the longtime DSLR users that fought the move to mirrorless at every turn and now complain are 100% part of the problem.

I (still) don't get how someone *not* immediately trusting Nikon's mirrorless cameras is part of the problem.

That's like complaining that the lack of public EV charging stations is due to ICE-vehicle drivers not buying EVs!!

On a personal note:

l was definitely *not* a resister of Nikon M/L. I bought a Z6 when it came out.

The Eye AF was not as advertised. So, I sold the Z6 and got a Z6ii. The Eye AF was no better, especially as the Z6 got *meaningful* firmware updates, but not the Z6ii.

So, I sold the Z6ii, and got...the cheapest (new) brand "C" M/L body. It nails Eye AF.

And, I'm back to my D750 because I still like Nikon and are routing for them.

 

[starbase218]

I post this not to renew debate on current Nikons vs. Canons (or Sonys), but for those who visit this forum because they haven't yet decided on a camera system or are thinking of switching.

I find Jan Wegener's videos entirely balanced, and he "shows his work," even though he benefits from clicks like almost everyone on YouTube.

Bottom line: Nikon wins going away in certain categories, as does Canon.

Go to the last couple of minutes for his summary if that's all you're interested in.

Why did Nikon make the Z8 so big and with that battery too! The evf is hardly anything to write home about and why is it Nikon cannot get the af right on mirrorless, its very weird.

Because people wanted a bigger, sturdier pro body?

Wasn't that what they said to justify the Z9, at least that came with a decent battery pack.

EN-EL15C has a larger capacity than LP-E6NH.

The EVF is blackout free and great, and the AF is superior to almost all other camera bodies (not all, but most, calm down critics).

It doesn't really seem to be that way by impartial reviewers

Judging from the video, I got to give props to Canon for their stills AF performance. In video it's either a wash or Nikon is better, according to Jan.

There is a bunch of things you could complain about with the Z8 but you managed to pick the silliest ones?

What, the low res evf,

More like "constant res". Other cameras may switch to about the same res when doing shooting. And why do you only mention the resolution and not the brightness?

the poor battery life

Nikon Z8 battery: EN-EL15C, 16 Wh (7 V, 2280 mAh)
CIPA rating: 340 shots

Canon R5 battery: LP-E6NH, 15.3 Wh (7.2 V, 2130 mAh)
CIPA rating: 320 shots

and sheer physical size of it are silly, hmmmmmmm,

Some people prefer the physically larger body. Even some of the ones who were criticising Nikon's autofocus (Tony Northrup).

not to mention the continuous complaints regarding the af.

I don't care about complaints. I care about capabilities. More complaints do not mean less capabilities. In fact complaints have no effect on capabilities whatsoever.

 

[Lance B]

The reason we don't have the Z6III that you [skyrunr] want is because Nikon and a pretty big percentage of their DSLR user base refused to face reality causing Nikon to be several years behind the competition.

I don't get it. If Nikon's DSLR user base is the problem, then why didn't Nikon discontinue all DSLRs when the Z6/Z7 came out? That surely would have forced us to "face reality."

Your reply has nothing to do with the point. I didn't once mention anything about Nikon DSLR users or Nikon abrubtly abandoning DSLRs. It's a process.... a process that needed to start years earlier and both Nikon and a hefty percentage of the Nikon DSLR user base stubbornly resisted at every turn. Go back to the Nikon DSLR forum and read comments from 2013 until the release of the Z7 and you can find an almost unlimited amount of evidence to support this.

Completely agree.

Something that Sony didn't really have to contend with.

The Df isn't the problem, it's the lost years and the monumental task Nikon has had trying to close the gap. They've done a pretty decent job since they got serious but as you've noted they still have work to do.

Yes, Nikon has done a "decent job"...if you're okay with a $4000 entry-level price point (for a Z8). Other major brands have significantly lower price points for "decent" performance, and that may be part of the problem.

Yes and I already explained why in the first paragraph. They have been playing catch up for years now so blame Nikon's stubborness along with a big percentage of the DSLR user base.

Agreed.

--
Lance B
https://www.flickr.com/photos/35949907@N02/?
http://www.pbase.com/lance_b

 

[Lance B]

(Excerpting I think in context)...

I'm sure there are some Nikon DSLR users that are now moving to Nikon mirrorless and they accept that Nikon has been playing catch up because they waited too long, but the longtime DSLR users that fought the move to mirrorless at every turn and now complain are 100% part of the problem.

I (still) don't get how someone *not* immediately trusting Nikon's mirrorless cameras is part of the problem.

That's like complaining that the lack of public EV charging stations is due to ICE-vehicle drivers not buying EVs!!

That is an infrastructure issue not connected with the buyer of EV's.

On a personal note:

l was definitely *not* a resister of Nikon M/L. I bought a Z6 when it came out.

The Eye AF was not as advertised. So, I sold the Z6 and got a Z6ii. The Eye AF was no better, especially as the Z6 got *meaningful* firmware updates, but not the Z6ii.

So, I sold the Z6ii, and got...the cheapest (new) brand "C" M/L body. It nails Eye AF.

And, I'm back to my D750 because I still like Nikon and are routing for them.

 

[bing041]

The Z8 and Z9 can shoot 8K 60p RAW video. The R5 cannot. The R5 overheats badly in 8K even at 30p, way more so than the Z8.

It has improved since the initial release though one has to be mindful. Since I don't shoot continuously for 30" or more, overheating has not been an issue with the R5.

Overheating is not just from long single clips. It builds up over time from a series of very short clips. YouTube influencers just test how long one clip can be sustained before thermal shutdown, because it is an easy test. Shooting many short clips with even minutes in between over a period of an hour or so in moderately hot weather, a normal shooting scenario, also leads to a shutdown that is basically the end. That is my experience with current R5 firmware.

You can delay the R5 thermal shutdown by shutting off the camera between clips. That you have to be mindful of overheating to this degree using the R5 sucks the fun out of shooting video and relative to the Z8/9 provides zero advantages for shooting 8K. So, why put up with it when there is a better alternative? If you have an R5, you can get great video and for some it is not worth the upgrade. But if one is choosing afresh, for video the choice is clear if you want the full array of capabilities, frame rates and codecs with fewer compromises and less anxiety.