New: Jan Wegener on Nikon Z8, Z9, vs. Canon R5

[skyrunr]

To my knowledge, the only guy who routinely does reviews of AF performance for anything more than birds (or a sad 2 min effort consisting of the reviewer's coworker doing the awkward middle-age jog towards the camera) is that Froknows guy, but he is less than unbiased.

I don't think you've followed Fro long enough or viewed enough of his content to understand his desire for Nikon to do better. I'd have to say there's more bias against is appearance and entertaining delivery than anything else. LOL I personally love the sniff and wind tests. I love the smell of knew electronics, and I get paid to setup new electronics all the time.

I can't lie, if he offered a sarcastic "I SHOOT JPG" t-shirt I'd buy one. I personally shoot both as the situation calls for. Until you've used several cameras side-by-side, as I have thanks to my Adorama VIP account, you don't know what you're missing.

 

[SCoombs]

I've been highly, highly critical on this and other forums of what I'd call the struggles of the Z6/7ii's AF to do some of the thing you describe, but while I wouldn't call the Z8/9 perfect (or any Sony or Canon for that matter) I do think it's generally inaccurate to describe them in this way. Really, the AF works very well it can certainly track still objects.

It fails my cup of pens test in full auto, and YES I had it for a month. I've mentioned this hear and have a post on shooting Horses with the adapted 70-180f2.8 with great (IMO) success.

How does this test work?

I'm also still wanting for you to explain what you are talking about in saying that the Canon can detect eyes "from any mode" as if the Z8 can't. As I mentioned when I asked about this before, you can program buttons to easily swap into any kind of AF you wish on the Z8/9, and the Z8/9 does detect eyes from all but the legacy modes.

As I have said here, you can program the * button to detect eyes instantly from ANY AF mode. You press it, it finds eyes in the frame, period.

I have my Z8 set up so that when I press the DISP button (right next to the AF-ON button) it activates full frame subject detection and will focus on eyes anywhere in the frame. It is also good for when I am out shooting wildlife and a critter comes out of nowhere and I don't have time to aim the focus box/point. As far as I understand, this is exactly what you're saying the * button does for you on the Canon.

To be clear, from any focus mode I may be in if I press the DISP button the camera will focus on eyes in the frame or any subject even if I can't properly aim at it in time. Is this any different from what you are describing? Did you know the Z8/9 could do this?

 

[skyrunr]

Yes, and you can use recall settings. It hasn't trickled down to any of their other cameras. I guess my point is that Canon had this YEARS ago, and Nikon is still behind. I've also mentioned that switching between human subjects is more difficult than it was with my Z7II which I had owned since released.

Also, you had to give up your display button... which I use. Nikon also limits what lens recall settings you can program to the lens buttons. I have pages of notes on their glitches. I'm an IT consultant that specializes in photography. I've been shooting digital since the CP950. I read the reference manuals as my signature implies.



Feel free to PM me as I'm stepping away from this thread.

 

[Suntan]

To my knowledge, the only guy who routinely does reviews of AF performance for anything more than birds (or a sad 2 min effort consisting of the reviewer's coworker doing the awkward middle-age jog towards the camera) is that Froknows guy, but he is less than unbiased.

I don't think you've followed Fro long enough or viewed enough of his content to understand his desire for Nikon to do better. I'd have to say there's more bias against is appearance and entertaining delivery than anything else. LOL I personally love the sniff and wind tests. I love the smell of knew electronics, and I get paid to setup new electronics all the time.

I can't lie, if he offered a sarcastic "I SHOOT JPG" t-shirt I'd buy one. I personally shoot both as the situation calls for. Until you've used several cameras side-by-side, as I have thanks to my Adorama VIP account, you don't know what you're missing.

I've watched enough of his videos to know he is biased against Nikon. Does that mean he has no valid criticisms against Nikon? No. Because he does. But at the same time, he IS biased against Nikon.

 

[ProDude]

I've owned a Canon R5 and Sony A7RV. Both reputed to have such amazing focus capabilities. They were superb indeed no complaints on what they brought to the table in that regard. Fast forward to having a Z9 now. I use primarily a 24-120 f4S and 100-400S along with a 1.4xZTC. I will say from the get go, I'm not what I consider to be a dedicated "birder" by any means. I primarily have used my cameras for family portrait, wedding and landscapes. Not the most challenging subjects to deal with for a given camera's focus system.

That said over the last 6 months have dived into using my Z9 more now for animals and bird shooting since I live in one of the most prevalent areas for such activities. (Southern Idaho along the Snake River). I took a week long dive into working with, experimenting with and dialing in my banks and settings for my usage. For birds I'm typically in AF-C, with Subject Detection on Animals. I've very old schools and lock my center focus point in place. I determine what I'm aiming at not the camera this way. I do have the AF button on the back set to enable instant 3D lock on a given subject I might aim my focus point on. It to date has worked flawlessly once enacted (unlike apparently some others that have reported it hasn't for them). To each their own or YMMV apparently.

I am incorporating the Large/Wide focus box for these purposes and have never needed ANY other focus box to faithfully capture near 100% of what I aim at. I continue to ee some like this Jan and a few others that keep spouting off how the Canon and Sony are in the lead in focus lock reliability. In my experience what I have seen is the Canon and Sony are "out of the box" pretty much ready to go just aim, lock and shoot.

I learned pretty quickly that the Nikon setup and mentality towards use is overall a tool in which the user must custom setup all the controls to do exactly what they want and need fully understanding the Nikon setup methods they have purposely designed their product to accomplish. It would seem to ME that for a number of folks they far prefer the near "auto pilot" approach. I can only speak for myself in saying that my hit rate is every bit if not better then ANY shooting experience with the Canon or Sony. I've explained my setup above and have NO idea why others don't' get the same results. The way I have this Z9 set up is it nails whatever I aim at, and I'm not about to complain one bit or change a thing. Can't ask for better results.

 

[SCoombs]

I've owned a Canon R5 and Sony A7RV. Both reputed to have such amazing focus capabilities. They were superb indeed no complaints on what they brought to the table in that regard. Fast forward to having a Z9 now. I use primarily a 24-120 f4S and 100-400S along with a 1.4xZTC. I will say from the get go, I'm not what I consider to be a dedicated "birder" by any means. I primarily have used my cameras for family portrait, wedding and landscapes. Not the most challenging subjects to deal with for a given camera's focus system.

That said over the last 6 months have dived into using my Z9 more now for animals and bird shooting since I live in one of the most prevalent areas for such activities. (Southern Idaho along the Snake River). I took a week long dive into working with, experimenting with and dialing in my banks and settings for my usage. For birds I'm typically in AF-C, with Subject Detection on Animals. I've very old schools and lock my center focus point in place. I determine what I'm aiming at not the camera this way. I do have the AF button on the back set to enable instant 3D lock on a given subject I might aim my focus point on. It to date has worked flawlessly once enacted (unlike apparently some others that have reported it hasn't for them). To each their own or YMMV apparently.

I am incorporating the Large/Wide focus box for these purposes and have never needed ANY other focus box to faithfully capture near 100% of what I aim at. I continue to ee some like this Jan and a few others that keep spouting off how the Canon and Sony are in the lead in focus lock reliability. In my experience what I have seen is the Canon and Sony are "out of the box" pretty much ready to go just aim, lock and shoot.

I learned pretty quickly that the Nikon setup and mentality towards use is overall a tool in which the user must custom setup all the controls to do exactly what they want and need fully understanding the Nikon setup methods they have purposely designed their product to accomplish. It would seem to ME that for a number of folks they far prefer the near "auto pilot" approach. I can only speak for myself in saying that my hit rate is every bit if not better then ANY shooting experience with the Canon or Sony. I've explained my setup above and have NO idea why others don't' get the same results. The way I have this Z9 set up is it nails whatever I aim at, and I'm not about to complain one bit or change a thing. Can't ask for better results.

For several years I had a Z7ii which I found to struggle mightily with AF. Before buying it, I'd of course seen people's reports that it struggled, but I'd also seen lots of other people, including notable Youtube photographers reporting good success and saying that people having trouble were using it incorrectly. On the strength of comments like these I bought the camera. I have definitely had experiences with other product types where a lot of people reported issues but I had found that it worked great if you used it correctly.

Nevertheless, in spite of following the setup and use recommendations of these same professionals and internet users my Z7ii just would not work the way theirs' did. I've written on here before that in particular there was one video where Ricci showed the eye tracking working very, very well even in very dark nightime lighting while mine would miss half the time in great lighting with a faster lens!

I eventually got a Z8 since the Z8/9 AF is strong by very widespread acclaim and was dismayed to find that it, too, was not working nearly as well as what I saw in videos, reviews, and what was reported widely on forums.

The long story short is that I eventually came to the conclusion that I think a huge part of this is lens dependent. In fact, in spite of the near universal opinion that the FTZ adapters work extremely well (and I'd agree that they do), I recently got my first native Z lens (after almost 3 years!) and it seems to AF a lot better than my F mount lenses do. In short, I wonder if part of the phenomenon you're describing comes down to something like this.

 

[Laqup]

To my knowledge, the only guy who routinely does reviews of AF performance for anything more than birds (or a sad 2 min effort consisting of the reviewer's coworker doing the awkward middle-age jog towards the camera) is that Froknows guy, but he is less than unbiased.

I don't think you've followed Fro long enough or viewed enough of his content to understand his desire for Nikon to do better. I'd have to say there's more bias against is appearance and entertaining delivery than anything else. LOL I personally love the sniff and wind tests. I love the smell of knew electronics, and I get paid to setup new electronics all the time.

I can't lie, if he offered a sarcastic "I SHOOT JPG" t-shirt I'd buy one. I personally shoot both as the situation calls for. Until you've used several cameras side-by-side, as I have thanks to my Adorama VIP account, you don't know what you're missing.

I've watched enough of his videos to know he is biased against Nikon. Does that mean he has no valid criticisms against Nikon? No. Because he does. But at the same time, he IS biased against Nikon.

You realize that he is a long time Nikon shooter? He probably would be more than happy to go back to Nikon if some of the issues he mentions get fixed.

 

[skyrunr]

I've watched enough of his videos to know he is biased against Nikon. Does that mean he has no valid criticisms against Nikon? No. Because he does. But at the same time, he IS biased against Nikon.

You realize that he is a long time Nikon shooter? He probably would be more than happy to go back to Nikon if some of the issues he mentions get fixed.

Indeed, and if anyone has been around long enough, Hudson Henry's original Z6 (rant?) was spot on, and those issues have not been addressed. Fro, Tony, Kasey (Conspiracies), and many others use these cameras side-by-side. Sure they miss many features and techniques from the manual, but these issues ARE NOT issues on Canon, Sony, or even Nikon DSLR's cameras. I love the Z8, but it is way more than I need, at the same time, and not enough to justify the cost at this time. There are A LOT of serious hobbyists such as myself who'd like a smaller Z8.

So a 33mp Z6S without a stacked sensor, the Z8's focusing, and Expeed7 (8 seems more logical for late 2023) would be perfect. Am I wrong to be frustrated that Nikon hasn't offered this, and that they'll probably offer a somewhat limited overpriced Zf next?!

--
SkyRunR
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[Suntan]

skyrunr

So a 33mp Z6S without a stacked sensor, the Z8's focusing, and Expeed7 (8 seems more logical for late 2023) would be perfect. Am I wrong to be frustrated that Nikon hasn't offered this, and that they'll probably offer a somewhat limited overpriced Zf

I think you are misunderstanding the topic at hand. Your desire for features that a company doesn't currently offer is completely separate from the desire for reviews that are unbiased.

 

[DeanSolecki]

The EVF is blackout free and great, and the AF is superior to almost all other camera bodies (not all, but most, calm down critics).

It doesn't really seem to be that way by impartial reviewers

There is a bunch of things you could complain about with the Z8 but you managed to pick the silliest ones?

What, the low res evf, the poor battery life and sheer physical size of it are silly, hmmmmmmm, not to mention the continuous complaints regarding the af.

Jared Polin and Chelsea and Tony Northrup both reviewed the Z8/9 EVF positively, and according to this forum they're all eViL nIkOn haTeRS.

I think both noted that the resolution is lower than that of the camera's respective peers, and that's because they definitely are, and will certainly, without a doubt, be increased in the mark II versions.

That said, the EVF and back panel are very good in both cases (and as much has been said by most reviewers) and they aren't going to cause any issues if you aren't specifically looking for something on a datasheet to winge about.

 

[Adam2]

The Z8 and Z9 can shoot 8K 60p RAW video. The R5 cannot. The R5 overheats badly in 8K even at 30p, way more so than the Z8.

It has improved since the initial release though one has to be mindful. Since I don't shoot continuously for 30" or more, overheating has not been an issue with the R5.

I have used the Z8 and the R5 to shoot 8K RAW video. Shooting 8K with the R5 is nerve-racking as one always has to worry about overheating. I stopped worrying using the Z8. And 60p is, in my view, the way to shoot video. RAW video is great too (even 5K DX RAW).

See above. 60p has its applications though one is not always shooting in 60p. For cinematic work, I'm using 24, for normal WL 30p and for effects, 60p or rarely 120p.

I do not shoot BIF. Occasional pigeons...

Maybe you should try? It's very relaxing and fulfilling. Cheers!

 

[Clayton1985]

Am I wrong to be frustrated that Nikon hasn't offered this, and that they'll probably offer a somewhat limited overpriced Zf next?!

Well yes and no. If you were complaining about Nikon's unwillingness to embrace mirrorless 10 years ago then you're not wrong. If you were on the other side dismissing mirrorless and praising OVFs and battery life then you are wrong. The reason we don't have the Z6III that you want is because Nikon and a pretty big percentage of their DSLR user base refused to face reality causing Nikon to be several years behind the competition. The Df isn't the problem, it's the lost years and the monumental task Nikon has had trying to close the gap. They've done a pretty decent job since they got serious but as you've noted they still have work to do.

 

[A Owens]

To my knowledge, the only guy who routinely does reviews of AF performance for anything more than birds (or a sad 2 min effort consisting of the reviewer's coworker doing the awkward middle-age jog towards the camera) is that Froknows guy, but he is less than unbiased.

I don't think you've followed Fro long enough or viewed enough of his content to understand his desire for Nikon to do better. I'd have to say there's more bias against is appearance and entertaining delivery than anything else. LOL I personally love the sniff and wind tests. I love the smell of knew electronics, and I get paid to setup new electronics all the time.

I can't lie, if he offered a sarcastic "I SHOOT JPG" t-shirt I'd buy one. I personally shoot both as the situation calls for. Until you've used several cameras side-by-side, as I have thanks to my Adorama VIP account, you don't know what you're missing.

I've watched enough of his videos to know he is biased against Nikon. Does that mean he has no valid criticisms against Nikon? No. Because he does. But at the same time, he IS biased against Nikon.

You realize that he is a long time Nikon shooter? He probably would be more than happy to go back to Nikon if some of the issues he mentions get fixed.

No, you misunderstand. He is a long term you tuber. And a very successful one. He earns his living from validating purchase decisions of the largest audience - Sony and Canon buyers. Kicking Nikon works.

 

[starbase218]

I post this not to renew debate on current Nikons vs. Canons (or Sonys), but for those who visit this forum because they haven't yet decided on a camera system or are thinking of switching.

I find Jan Wegener's videos entirely balanced, and he "shows his work," even though he benefits from clicks like almost everyone on YouTube.

Bottom line: Nikon wins going away in certain categories, as does Canon.

Go to the last couple of minutes for his summary if that's all you're interested in.

Why did Nikon make the Z8 so big and with that battery too! The evf is hardly anything to write home about and why is it Nikon cannot get the af right on mirrorless, its very weird.

That's a bit of a stretch. It's not what Jan says in his video either. He does say there's an edge to the Canon. Which is fair enough. But I'd say "not having the edge" and "not getting the AF right" aren't the same thing.

As to why Nikon's AF is lagging slightly? I would think it has to do with the fact that even their greatest DSLRs (D850 and D6) did not have on-sensor phase-detect AF at all. In video mode, the D850 AF was horrible. Same in live-view. Nikon's autofocus prowess was always viewfinder based, using a separate autofocus sensor array.

Meanwhile, Canon put more emphasis on video, they incorporated dual-pixel AF with on-sensor phase-detection, and so they had a head-start in that area.

The same with Sony, who had been iterating mirrorless models long before Canon or Nikon switched to mirrorless. So again they could develop that technology. Another advantage to them was the lack of competition, at least regarding fullframe, for quite some time.

I actually think that Nikon has done quite well, taking everything into account. But yes, it seems like they will need to improve further. I have little doubt that they will.

Oh, and you might want to check what he says about the video autofocus. Hint: it's at least as good as Canon.

 

[HRS]

The reason we don't have the Z6III that you [skyrunr] want is because Nikon and a pretty big percentage of their DSLR user base refused to face reality causing Nikon to be several years behind the competition.

I don't get it. If Nikon's DSLR user base is the problem, then why didn't Nikon discontinue all DSLRs when the Z6/Z7 came out? That surely would have forced us to "face reality."

The Df isn't the problem, it's the lost years and the monumental task Nikon has had trying to close the gap. They've done a pretty decent job since they got serious but as you've noted they still have work to do.

Yes, Nikon has done a "decent job"...if you're okay with a $4000 entry-level price point (for a Z8). Other major brands have significantly lower price points for "decent" performance, and that may be part of the problem.

 

[RaindropDroptop]

To my knowledge, the only guy who routinely does reviews of AF performance for anything more than birds (or a sad 2 min effort consisting of the reviewer's coworker doing the awkward middle-age jog towards the camera) is that Froknows guy, but he is less than unbiased.

I don't think you've followed Fro long enough or viewed enough of his content to understand his desire for Nikon to do better. I'd have to say there's more bias against is appearance and entertaining delivery than anything else. LOL I personally love the sniff and wind tests. I love the smell of knew electronics, and I get paid to setup new electronics all the time.

I can't lie, if he offered a sarcastic "I SHOOT JPG" t-shirt I'd buy one. I personally shoot both as the situation calls for. Until you've used several cameras side-by-side, as I have thanks to my Adorama VIP account, you don't know what you're missing.

I've watched enough of his videos to know he is biased against Nikon. Does that mean he has no valid criticisms against Nikon? No. Because he does. But at the same time, he IS biased against Nikon.

You realize that he is a long time Nikon shooter? He probably would be more than happy to go back to Nikon if some of the issues he mentions get fixed.

Fro doesn’t even take the time to learn how to use the Z system. Constantly in the worst focus mode most of the time. He may not be bias (however I find it odd that after canon gave him hundreds of cameras to give away he ditched Sony for canon) but his skill with a Z camera is juvenile. So his opinion doesn’t mean much to me.

 

[ghostfox_1]

The reason we don't have the Z6III that you [skyrunr] want is because Nikon and a pretty big percentage of their DSLR user base refused to face reality causing Nikon to be several years behind the competition.

I don't get it. If Nikon's DSLR user base is the problem, then why didn't Nikon discontinue all DSLRs when the Z6/Z7 came out? That surely would have forced us to "face reality."

I didn't know nikon could snap all the DSLRs out of existence.

The Df isn't the problem, it's the lost years and the monumental task Nikon has had trying to close the gap. They've done a pretty decent job since they got serious but as you've noted they still have work to do.

Yes, Nikon has done a "decent job"...if you're okay with a $4000 entry-level price point (for a Z8). Other major brands have significantly lower price points for "decent" performance, and that may be part of the problem.

Stuff takes time, especially when you're the smallest of the big three.

The z50 et al also work fine, you (and everyone else) are just overly harsh on them because they don't do everything for you.

 

[Mako2011]

I don't get it. If Nikon's DSLR user base is the problem, then why didn't Nikon discontinue all DSLRs when the Z6/Z7 came out? That surely would have forced us to "face reality."

I didn't know nikon could snap all the DSLRs out of existence.

That's me..part of the Prob. For me personally I just really prefer a OVF over an EVF by a large margin...even the latest model. So as a new D850 is cheap now, I already have great glass for it, and really no image I can take with a latest Z body I couldn't with the D850...just makes sense for now for me. All the extra cash I saved not upgrading (for now) goes into photo trips

 

[starbase218]

Am I wrong to be frustrated that Nikon hasn't offered this, and that they'll probably offer a somewhat limited overpriced Zf next?!

Well yes and no. If you were complaining about Nikon's unwillingness to embrace mirrorless 10 years ago then you're not wrong. If you were on the other side dismissing mirrorless and praising OVFs and battery life then you are wrong. The reason we don't have the Z6III that you want is because Nikon and a pretty big percentage of their DSLR user base refused to face reality causing Nikon to be several years behind the competition.

Sorry but I think you're wrong. A few years ago I might have agreed, but with the Z9 and Z8 having been released, I'd say that if Nikon wanted to, the Z6/7 III would already have been released, with Expeed 7 AF features.

I think though - and perhaps my opinion is unpopular - that Nikon wants to milk the Z8. They know that there are Z7 users who would like a Z7 III. But the Z8 may not be prohibitively expensive for them to get. So in the absence of the Z7 III, users might go that way. And I believe the same is true (to a lesser extent) for Z6 owners.

I think this also explains the ZF. Rumours say it'll have Expeed 7, which is good, but it will be a retro body, so it won't appeal to everyone (think using longer lenses on a body with a small grip, for example). So they are going to offer a cheaper Expeed 7 alternative that will not eat much into the Z8 sales.

You might say that Nikon is running a risk with this strategy because people might jump to Sony or Canon. But spending USD4000 on a Z8 instead of USD3000 on a Z7 III, and not having to swap any lenses (on which money would be lost as well), is probably preferable to many. Also given that the Z8 is probably still the most capable mirrorless camera at that price point.

It might also be that Nikon has been putting so much emphasis on getting lenses out, that camera development has suffered. So maybe "milking" is not the right term, and maybe the current situation is just a result of all that. In which case I guess we can look forward to new bodies next year. I hope this is the case.

 

[starbase218]

To my knowledge, the only guy who routinely does reviews of AF performance for anything more than birds (or a sad 2 min effort consisting of the reviewer's coworker doing the awkward middle-age jog towards the camera) is that Froknows guy, but he is less than unbiased.

I don't think you've followed Fro long enough or viewed enough of his content to understand his desire for Nikon to do better. I'd have to say there's more bias against is appearance and entertaining delivery than anything else. LOL I personally love the sniff and wind tests. I love the smell of knew electronics, and I get paid to setup new electronics all the time.

I can't lie, if he offered a sarcastic "I SHOOT JPG" t-shirt I'd buy one. I personally shoot both as the situation calls for. Until you've used several cameras side-by-side, as I have thanks to my Adorama VIP account, you don't know what you're missing.

I've watched enough of his videos to know he is biased against Nikon. Does that mean he has no valid criticisms against Nikon? No. Because he does. But at the same time, he IS biased against Nikon.

You realize that he is a long time Nikon shooter? He probably would be more than happy to go back to Nikon if some of the issues he mentions get fixed.

I doubt it, but not because he has something against Nikon. Only because switching is not cheap or easy, so it has to be worth it. Therefore Nikon has to offer something valuable to him that his current brand does not.