New: Jan Wegener on Nikon Z8, Z9, vs. Canon R5

[HRS]

The evf is hardly anything to write home about and why is it Nikon cannot get the af right on mirrorless, its very weird.

Jan prefers the Nikons in the EVF category. It’s the faster readout speed of the Nikons’ sensors, allowing zero EVF blackout during high-FPS shooting.

 

[HRS]

Care to expand on that? Always interested to hear performance discussion beyond just birding.

In Jan's video, he had a problem with birding when the background was entirely water. He shows how the Nikon couldn't stay on the bird, and frequently went to the water.

So I don't think the problem was with "birds" as such, but possibly anything with a water background, such as boats, surfers, whales, and so on.

 

[ghostfox_1]

There are other use cases where the Nikon AF in the z9 simply frustrates me as it just seems to hunt all over the place for no apparent reason.

Care to expand on that? Always interested to hear performance discussion beyond just birding.

I shoot cosplayers and sometimes, the Z9 AF intermittently goes batsh*t crazy (false positives on random things, ADHD with flip flopping between detected subjects). But, usually, it goes back to normal after de/refocus. Or, I just swap to 3D tracking and shoot with it, vs Auto Area (eye detect).
This being said, I have a WAY higher keeper rate than with my older Z7 and I won't be moving back to D850 unless it's a specialized case.

 

[HRS]

I saw his video last night and found it informational. I have no experience with Canons, and don't really do BIF, so I have no reference to evaluate his bias.

It would be nice if there were more people giving unbiased comparisons about the performance of these cameras for things other than just shooting little birds a long ways away.

Amen. I see Jan as very balanced in his evaluations. And, he' not anywhere as click-baity as others (even though those others sometimes reach the similar conclusions).

 

[ghostfox_1]

Everthing has generally been good enough for a while, and as the z9/8 tech trickles down it'll apply to all of nikons bodies.

Nikon also has better lenses imo, especially for lower light situations (where they have faster lenses at long lengths, vs canons which are slower).

 

[CardoBrit]

I love my Z8 and Z9 for sure!

But comparing these with my sony a1 , I can assure you that the focus acquisition in fast and far wildlife subjects is much better with the sony cameras.This is clearly seen already for BIF.

This what all impartial reviewers are saying, Nikon is still lagging.

It's interesting, I own a Nikon D850, Sony A7RIII and now the Z8, but also tried the Sony A7RV.

I typically found I needed single point AF on the D850 for fast moving subjects and it was always great, while the A7RIII was best to use flexible spot and eye autofocus (on closer subjects not moving fast). For the Z8, I use 3D Tracking and it's been good, but not as good as I hoped for.

The new A7RV impressed me with how far away it would lock onto the eye and instantly recognize the right part of the body for pets (cats) (ie. it would focus on the head if far away or if the head was turned and then lock onto the nearest eye when visible). It was very cumbersome to setup, but if you just turn on eye tracking, it is simple to use. BUT - there were also a lot of instances where it missed the eye. The viewfinder showed it hit the eye, but the photo proved otherwise - it hit the eyelash or eyelid or around the eye area, but definitely not the eye. The super slow sensor speed and compromised crop video and lower fps were strong enough negatives that I returned it for the Z8. Plus, the battery is not as good on the A7RV as they used to be. I think my A7RIII lasted nearly twice as long. The battery on the A7RV nearly died just setting up the menu settings thanks to that new processor, I'm sure.

 

[SCoombs]

We're usually on the same page, and without viewing this video the following points are obvious:

• The Canon has a better EVF and AF tracking implementation, but I had no trouble with the Z8's even with adapted e-mount glass. SORRY, the R5 Canon has instant eye-tracking that can be programmed to the *. This is invaluable!

You hit on a lot of Jan’s observations. He did give Nikon the nod for EVF performance because of zero blackout between shots during high frame-rate shooting.

I don't understand giving the R5 a plus for this. Unless I misunderstand what is being talked about here, the Z8/9 allows exactly the same kind of thing. In fact, it's arguable that the Z8/9 goes beyond this because in a sense eye tracking is built into most of the focus modes so you don't need to activate anything special to get it.

 

[Adam2]

We're usually on the same page, and without viewing this video the following points are obvious:

• Either you spend more on the body (Z8) that accepts third party lenses or you spend more on (quirky for a Nikon user) RF lenses. (Z8)
• The smaller size, weight (.4 lb lighter,) and fully articulating screen on the R5 are significant. (R5)
• The R5 is now rather dated and this isn't really a fair comparison. I can't stand MARK. Just label them with the year already. R5'20, Z8'23, DONE! (Z8)
• What camera fits into your digital work flow better? (R5 if you use Lightroom)
• What camera is more likely to improve with firmware updates? (Z8 landslide)
• The Canon has a better EVF and AF tracking implementation, but I had no trouble with the Z8's even with adapted e-mount glass. SORRY, the R5 Canon has instant eye-tracking that can be programmed to the *. This is invaluable!
• Canon/Sony let you remap the dial-pad to four buttons with just about any setting you want. (R5)

One of these has a much more professional vibe to it, and that goes beyond the size.

https://www.dpreview.com/products/compare/side-by-side?products=canon_eosr5&products=nikon_z8

Jan's presentation was fairly balanced and it appeared to be addressing, though not exclusively, current Canon users. As a afficionado of both systems, Jan I differ on a few accounts (mainly buttons and programmability). As he observed, the only reason one would consider switching from Canon is because of Nikon's glass. That we agree upon. Canon does offer a wider array of bodies to choose from, though for me, it's all about the lenses and that's what we should be talking about. Canon has ignored mid-range, cost competitive, innovative, long lenses. Sure, they have the 600 and 800 f/11 though for serious WL photographers they simply are not practical except in very limited circumstances. Rather, Canon appears to have focused on entry level (R7 + these lenses) or on the high-end glass such as the RF 100-300 f/2.8, RF 200-500 f/4, & RF 600 f/4. All of these lenses will cost you your first born.

In contrast, Nikon has many exciting, relatively affordable WL lenses including the 800 f/6.3 PF, 180-600 f/5.6-6.3, 400 f/4.5, etc. (not including 3rd party). While some claim that Jan's comparison isn't fair because the R5 is "dated", that is precisely the issue. The R5 is a great camera, and it performs marvelously, though I find that the glass is the bigger factor for consideration. Sure, I can slap an older big white on the R5 with an adapter and it is going to perform well, though it is likely to be heavy, may have some limitations in FPS, AF field size, etc. Additionally, the Nikon VR is so amazing and impressive that my Nikon images are comparatively sharper than my Canon ones, shot in real word conditions.

Overall, the Canon AF is easier to navigate than Nikon, and as Jan indicated it does tend to identify and track better overall. Overall, the differences between the AF are relatively small and are, for the most part negated by the lens offerings and VR. It is likely that the R5II will likely offer some improvements at a price tag approaching the Z8 though Canon doesn't have an answer regarding the lenses.

 

[bing041]

The Z8 and Z9 can shoot 8K 60p RAW video. The R5 cannot. The R5 overheats badly in 8K even at 30p, way more so than the Z8.

I have used the Z8 and the R5 to shoot 8K RAW video. Shooting 8K with the R5 is nerve-racking as one always has to worry about overheating. I stopped worrying using the Z8. And 60p is, in my view, the way to shoot video. RAW video is great too (even 5K DX RAW).

I do not shoot BIF. Occasional pigeons...

 

[SCoombs]

We're usually on the same page, and without viewing this video the following points are obvious:

• Either you spend more on the body (Z8) that accepts third party lenses or you spend more on (quirky for a Nikon user) RF lenses. (Z8)
• The smaller size, weight (.4 lb lighter,) and fully articulating screen on the R5 are significant. (R5)
• The R5 is now rather dated and this isn't really a fair comparison. I can't stand MARK. Just label them with the year already. R5'20, Z8'23, DONE! (Z8)
• What camera fits into your digital work flow better? (R5 if you use Lightroom)
• What camera is more likely to improve with firmware updates? (Z8 landslide)
• The Canon has a better EVF and AF tracking implementation, but I had no trouble with the Z8's even with adapted e-mount glass. SORRY, the R5 Canon has instant eye-tracking that can be programmed to the *. This is invaluable!
• Canon/Sony let you remap the dial-pad to four buttons with just about any setting you want. (R5)

One of these has a much more professional vibe to it, and that goes beyond the size.

https://www.dpreview.com/products/compare/side-by-side?products=canon_eosr5&products=nikon_z8

My few thoughts start with the admittedly subjective view that the Z8's size and weight us a plus - of course, the view that it's a minus is also subjective. I still remember the first time I held my old D500 after being used to smaller bodies (including a Z7ii) and it just felt so good compared to all of them. The size was still not huge, like you may get in a D850 or a D5, but it felt substantial and gave me confidence in the equipment. To this day I've always loved the althat size and weight and I like that the Z8 is close. If anything, I miss the extra depth from the lack of a mirror. I know many people want smaller and lighter, but I've also seen plenty of people who like me have said how they want their more serious camera body to have a more serious size and weight, so I really think this is too subjective to put in either camera's column.

Beyond that, I can simply say that I had used the Canon mirrorless AF system before getting my Z7ii and the Z7ii's was clearly inferior, but when I finally got a Z8 it reminds me a lot of shooting Canon. Maybe the Nikon is a step behind in some ways, and maybe it's a step ahead in some, but overall it feels like the Canon felt to me. A few months ago I may have even said the Z8/8 is still a step behind the competition but since then I've been watching a lot of videos of people like Jan discussing other systems, reading posts on forums for other brands, etc , and it seems to me that they all have their strengths and weaknesses and little quirks and things to work around. I've actually been surprised more than anything about how many problems people have in some situations with the vaunted Sony AF.

In any case, I think each system has its ups and downs. For instance, as another user mentions the Canon lens lineup is in some ways fairly weak while the Nikon VR is clearly head and shoulders above others. Apart from a few things like that, they all seem fairly close.

 

[dtc25]

I post this not to renew debate on current Nikons vs. Canons (or Sonys), but for those who visit this forum because they haven't yet decided on a camera system or are thinking of switching.

I find Jan Wegener's videos entirely balanced, and he "shows his work," even though he benefits from clicks like almost everyone on YouTube.

Bottom line: Nikon wins going away in certain categories, as does Canon.

Go to the last couple of minutes for his summary if that's all you're interested in.

Why did Nikon make the Z8 so big and with that battery too! The evf is hardly anything to write home about and why is it Nikon cannot get the af right on mirrorless, its very weird.

I’m a bit confused about what your opinion is, because over on the Sony forum you said:

“So does Nikon, they look in very good shape. For wildlife, sports, events etc which is what the A1 is designed for the Z8/Z9 ergo/size and build makes even more sense.

Currently Nikon is where to be for wildlife imo, 180-600, 400, 800 primes, all affordable and state of the art motors and af.

I think I'm heading to Nikon and Z8 and 180-600 and possibly others, dump the Sony stuff and use Fuji for everything else, travel, family etc.”

I’m struggling to see how this is consistent with your opinion of Nikon in this thread.

 

[Clayton1985]

Why did Nikon make the Z8 so big

I think we should all contact Nikon and demand to know why Nikon didn't consult And-roid before they decided on the wrong size for the Z8. It may be common knowledge but if anyone knows that big fast telephoto lenses require tiny cameras it is And-roid!

 

[Ken Seals]

• What camera fits into your digital work flow better? (R5 if you use Lightroom)

Can you explain what this means? With a real world example?

 

[dkyl]

I post this not to renew debate on current Nikons vs. Canons (or Sonys), but for those who visit this forum because they haven't yet decided on a camera system or are thinking of switching.

I find Jan Wegener's videos entirely balanced, and he "shows his work," even though he benefits from clicks like almost everyone on YouTube.

Bottom line: Nikon wins going away in certain categories, as does Canon.

Go to the last couple of minutes for his summary if that's all you're interested in.

Why did Nikon make the Z8 so big and with that battery too! The evf is hardly anything to write home about and why is it Nikon cannot get the af right on mirrorless, its very weird.

Because people wanted a bigger, sturdier pro body?

Wasn't that what they said to justify the Z9, at least that came with a decent battery pack.

The EVF is blackout free and great, and the AF is superior to almost all other camera bodies (not all, but most, calm down critics).

It doesn't really seem to be that way by impartial reviewers

There is a bunch of things you could complain about with the Z8 but you managed to pick the silliest ones?

What, the low res evf, the poor battery life and sheer physical size of it are silly, hmmmmmmm, not to mention the continuous complaints regarding the af.

Do you go up to ppl who buy size L gloves that the sheer size of their choice is silly? But S, M and XL are ok, just not L cos that’s ‘silly’ right?

Nikon makes a whole bunch of camera sizes from the Z50 class, to Z5/6/7 up to the Z9. There were demand for a body size between the Z5/6/7 and the Z9 and clearly many people are happy with the resultant Z8 size.

 

[A Owens]

I love my Z8 and Z9 for sure!

But comparing these with my sony a1 , I can assure you that the focus acquisition in fast and far wildlife subjects is much better with the sony cameras.This is clearly seen already for BIF.

This what all impartial reviewers are saying, Nikon is still lagging.

It's interesting, I own a Nikon D850, Sony A7RIII and now the Z8, but also tried the Sony A7RV.

I typically found I needed single point AF on the D850 for fast moving subjects and it was always great, while the A7RIII was best to use flexible spot and eye autofocus (on closer subjects not moving fast). For the Z8, I use 3D Tracking and it's been good, but not as good as I hoped for.

I find 3d tracking to seldom work well. I actually find auto area to be best for most things. How the fellow in the video managed to miss the gannet on a clear blue sea is beyond me.

 

[skyrunr]

• What camera fits into your digital work flow better? (R5 if you use Lightroom)

Can you explain what this means? With a real world example?

Digital work flow is what happens once you transfer files from your camera through the final product. I have years of examples and experience I can't easily summarize in a post, and this is way off topic. Not only that, but I charge for my professional consulting services.

 

[batleys]

Care to expand on that? Always interested to hear performance discussion beyond just birding.

In Jan's video, he had a problem with birding when the background was entirely water. He shows how the Nikon couldn't stay on the bird, and frequently went to the water.

So I don't think the problem was with "birds" as such, but possibly anything with a water background, such as boats, surfers, whales, and so on.

I do scratch my head on this.. and wonder if it’s sample variation. Now with my Z9 with f/w 4.01 (albeit not Z8) I find the AF tracking superb.. to the point it has me often with a silly grin on my face.

I live by the coast, sea marshes, and several estuaries and nature reserves. The vast majority of my wild life is coastal based particularly birds in flight… and I have no real issue but learned to develop my technique.

Previously to f/w 4.00 I did find the tracking would not infrequently fail on white seabirds… that has now gone away.

on my 800 f/6.3 if tracking a fast moving bird when small in the frame in front of trees at a long distance .. especially in low light.. the camera can loose track… but but when there is better separation or the subject is larger no issue at all.

I also found water sports like dinghy and yacht racing perfect. With the AF tracking wonderfully on subjects with frequent instructions… superb..

Now I don’t do much video apart from basic scene capture so can’t compare tge auto focussing there, but for still the Nikon Z9 f/w 4.00 AF speed is faster than my reflexes a lot of the time.. and is perfect for my needs… could it be improved.. yes possibly.. perhaps more subject AI tracking modes…

 

[skyrunr]

Well, auto area is probably the wrong mode for the job then. Try a wide area instead. Don't blame the camera.

@Ghostfox_1 you're clearly in denial. I've experienced the same issues with all Z bodies in medium let "easy" conditions. Nikon struggles to track objects while they are still. While you say "you're using the wrong mode," you're ignoring the fact that other cameras and DSLR's can do this better. I don't have to change modes for the camera to do what I want. Maybe if it was easier to change all your settings or modes...

I do not have these issues on my 2019 Sony A7C. It is not perfect as it has other AF issues, but it is more predictable than Nikon's tracking system/implementation. I get more keepers with it. I didn't get on with Canon's system, but their instant eye-detection mode from any mode is wonderful. The A7C is not better than the Z8 for sports, IQ, and Z glass. It is also way more than I need and want to spend. It is okay that we have different needs, and it isn't just bashing Nikon for no reason.

Nikon doesn't offer a single FX body with an articulating screen that tilts down 90 degrees. The MARKET is generally leaning towards smaller and lighter designs. Sony and Canon flagships are smaller than the Z8. I don't want a larger camera to balance my lenses, I use a monopod, and I even put the 70-300E on a J5.

I don't know why it is so hard to accept some painful truths about Nikon's current lineup. NOT A SINGLE feature has trickled down to the II's from the Z8. NOT ONE. Linear focusing doesn't count as it is a lens function.

 

[mosswings]

Well, auto area is probably the wrong mode for the job then. Try a wide area instead. Don't blame the camera.

I don't know why it is so hard to accept some painful truths about Nikon's current lineup. NOT A SINGLE feature has trickled down to the II's from the Z8. NOT ONE. Linear focusing doesn't count as it is a lens function.

I was with you until this last paragraph.

Of course nothing from the z8 has trickled down to the z6ii/z7ii. That would require an internal architecture similar to the z8, which the iis do not have. We have to wait for the iiiis.

 

[Ken Seals]

• What camera fits into your digital work flow better? (R5 if you use Lightroom)

Can you explain what this means? With a real world example?

Digital work flow is what happens once you transfer files from your camera through the final product. I have years of examples and experience I can't easily summarize in a post, and this is way off topic. Not only that, but I charge for my professional consulting services.

No kidding!! I think you brought up the topic. I have been using LR/LrC since V2. I expected you to explain your comment that the R5 is better for digital workflow? I have 160,000 images in my LrC catalog. Most of them are Nikon. I can't for the world see how one camera brand would be better for "digital workflow".