Converting from 30 fps down to 24 fps with "Twixtor" VERSUS just changing the Sequence frame rate?

[Android Shooter]

So, cinematographer Shane Hurlbut does not like using native 24p. Here is a quote:

- When asked about 24p: "24p is dead to me...The cocktail is shooting at 30p and then twixtoring to 24p." Shane Hurlbut

Why does he use Twixtor for bringing 30fps down to 24fps?
Can't he just change the Sequence frame rate in Adobe Premiere?
What are the advantages of using Twixtor over using the inbuilt frame rate conversion functionality of Premiere?

 

[Sean Nelson]

I assume that Twixtor will generate intermediate frames so as to maintain a smooth cadence of motion. If you just choose the "closest frame" then you end up skipping some frames in a reverse fashion to "3:2 pulldown", and so motion appears to be irregular.

But it's a mystery why you'd want to go that roundabout route rather than just capture the 24fps at its natural cadence. Perhaps it's because the main market these days is no longer theaters but rather streaming and video audiences where 30fps presentation is the norm. And even most theaters these days use digital projectors which can show 30fps at its native cadence.

Maybe it's a sign that we're slowly but surely moving away from the 24fps "jail" that motion pictures have been in for the past century. With digital presentation there are no longer any compatibility issues and the only remaining restrictions are artistic ones.

 

[Android Shooter]

Interesting indeed. I take it that Twixtor is just better at converting frame rates than Adobe Premiere is.

By the way, Shane Hurlbut also talks about shutter speed. He says that when he is shooting his movies at 30 fps, he never follows the 180 degree rule and never uses 1/60 shutter speed. He says that 1/40 shutter speed is way better than 1/60, and that one should never go above 1/50 because this makes the footage look like "video".

 

[Gary3000]

Interesting indeed. I take it that Twixtor is just better at converting frame rates than Adobe Premiere is.

By the way, Shane Hurlbut also talks about shutter speed. He says that when he is shooting his movies at 30 fps, he never follows the 180 degree rule and never uses 1/60 shutter speed. He says that 1/40 shutter speed is way better than 1/60, and that one should never go above 1/50 because this makes the footage look like "video".

How old are the articles you're referencing?

I just googled and sounds like he made those comments in the old days when few cameras could even shoot 24fps and folks had to shoot 30fps and resort to Twixtor to make it 24fps.
Which would also explains why he shot with a slower shutter speed to more closely match the blur you'd get with 24fps so Twixtor wouldn't have to add more motion blur to the 30fps material.

It doesn't make sense at all for anyone to shoot 30fps if the intended display rate is 24fps, *unless they intend to shoot 30fps (or higher), with the intent to slow down to 24fps for slow-mo without audio,. Tho I have read that some music video shooter do so for more dramatic effect. (while shooting they speed up the on-set playback audio by 20% for the singer to match up to) so when they then edit later and slow down 20% the lyrics sync.

 

[Andrew S10]

- When asked about 24p: "24p is dead to me...The cocktail is shooting at 30p and then twixtoring to 24p." Shane Hurlbut

The industry practice is actually the opposite for TV broadcasting, commercials are shot at 24 FPS, and a 3:2 pull-down Telecine is applied to bring up the frame rate to 29.97 FPS for broadcast.

That was obviously the only option with film cameras, but the practice is still followed with digital cameras that can record 29.97 FPS, I believe to maintain the unique motion cadence, and because, VFXs are often cheaper & easier with a lower frame rate.

Perhaps Shane uses this technique for action shots so that he can get faster whip pans.

The original firmware on the Canon 5D MK II recorded video at exactly 30 FPS, not 29.97 FPS, and later Canon released firmware updates that unlocked 23.976 FPS & 29.97 FPS, so perhaps you were reading an old quote.

Slowing down 29.97 FPS to 23.976 FPS gives a subtle floating effect to steadycam or gimbal shots, but just make sure there's no dialogue.

Fight scenes & car chases are often shot at 22 FPS & played back at 24 FPS to speed up the motion.

 

[Android Shooter]

Yeah, I was just wondering what are the advantages of using Twixtor for doing a 30fps to 24fps conversion over using Premiere for the same purpose. I think Premiere can do this just fine without the need of any plugins. But it must have been a different situation 10 years ago.

 

[John Vickers]

Interesting indeed. I take it that Twixtor is just better at converting frame rates than Adobe Premiere is.

By the way, Shane Hurlbut also talks about shutter speed. He says that when he is shooting his movies at 30 fps, he never follows the 180 degree rule and never uses 1/60 shutter speed. He says that 1/40 shutter speed is way better than 1/60, and that one should never go above 1/50 because this makes the footage look like "video".

Sounds like he is being provocative to attract attention.

There are plenty of situations where 30P at 1/40 s is going to look rubbish.

The "180° rule" is silly, if taken too literally.

Most film cinema cameras were physically incapable of shooting at 180°.

 

[John Vickers]

So, cinematographer Shane Hurlbut does not like using native 24p. Here is a quote:

- When asked about 24p: "24p is dead to me...The cocktail is shooting at 30p and then twixtoring to 24p." Shane Hurlbut

Do you have a source for that quote?

On it's own, it seems strange to me. But in context, it might make more sense.

 

[Gary3000]

Yeah, I was just wondering what are the advantages of using Twixtor for doing a 30fps to 24fps conversion over using Premiere for the same purpose. I think Premiere can do this just fine without the need of any plugins. But it must have been a different situation 10 years ago.

Yes, Premiere can do things pretty fine on it's own these days using Optical Flow frame blending. - I don't recall if it had optical flow 10 years ago.

Twixtor tho. has been a plug-in option available since the early 2000's (maybe even late 90's,. can't quite recall, at least for After Effects.) but it's def been out for over 10 years for Premiere and FCP, and was the only way to pull off Optical Flow before Adobe started incorporating their own Optical Flow frame blending.

However with the Adobe apps,. you only have one option - enabling Optical Flow or not.
Whereas Twixtor offers additional options and adjustments that might work better for trickier scenes. - which is why Twixtor is still being developed and sold.

So Twixtor is technically better,. even for 30 to 24fps because I believe it can add additional motion blur to better simulate a 1/48th shutter (vs 1/60) as well, and it can do better slow motion.
But at the same time, is it worth it for casual editors? probably not.

 

[Sean Nelson]

Premiere can do things pretty fine on it's own these days using Optical Flow frame blending. - I don't recall if it had optical flow 10 years ago.

It did, but it was pretty funky compared to how well Resolve's current "Speed Warp" interpolator works. I assume that the Premiere algorithm has been improved too, but I'm not going to commit to paying a monthly fee to find out.

 

[Hendrik_nl]

The 180 degree shutter angle rule is one you can break these days. Shutter speed determines the amount of blur, so this one is the most important.

But, even Shane Hurlbut has to follow some rules. One is that he cannot choose all shutter speeds.

In order to avoid a flicker effect with the lights, it is recommended to use a shutter speed that is synchronized with the frequency of the power grid.