areallygrumpyoldsod
Senior Member
I provided my feedback to the authors of the survey.
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Nikon is what most pros use, poll finds
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PLShutterbug
Veteran Member
He didn’t say it wasn’t valid, he said he wasn’t sure if it was valid.
There is a wide gulf between “Is it?” (What he said) and “It isn’t.”
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Stan Disbrow
Veteran Member
Hi,
I suppose we could change the thinking from income to time spent. In which case, I am still an amateur photographer and a professional engineer. Maybe after retirement, that would change. I still won't have the majority of my income from photography but the engineering time will greatly decrease and leave more for photography.
Stan
I suppose we could change the thinking from income to time spent. In which case, I am still an amateur photographer and a professional engineer. Maybe after retirement, that would change. I still won't have the majority of my income from photography but the engineering time will greatly decrease and leave more for photography.
Stan
areallygrumpyoldsod
Senior Member
Hi Stan — I prefer the definition of professional photographer to be similar to “earns the majority of their income from photography” — it seems to be the criteria used most often in my experience.Hi,
I suppose we could change the thinking from income to time spent. In which case, I am still an amateur photographer and a professional engineer. Maybe after retirement, that would change. I still won't have the majority of my income from photography but the engineering time will greatly decrease and leave more for photography.
Stan
ANYWAY - any findings from ~280 self selected professionals have a woefully low confidence level and would be statistically insignificant even if the survey was taken in my city let alone in the terms implied in the survey.
If I surveyed the pro-sports shooters I know then the poll would be dominated by Canon, then Nikon AND DSLR way ahead of mirrorless —- and I am a Nikon guy.
But if you polled wedding shooters who do not also shoot video then it would be an even split between Nikon, Canon and Sony and even split between mirrorless and dslr. THESE are entirely statistically irrelevant statements from some old bloke who has been shooting for many decades and happens to know a bunch of primarily Nikon and Hasselblad shooters.
michaeladawson
Forum Pro
Careful what you're quoting. You said "Is it? (what he said)" and not "it isn't".
When in fact, agrumpyoldsod said "it is not a remotely...". I'm going to take the liberty of using a contraction and say that he said "It isn't". He also said "It is an entirely irrelevant survey...". Which is the same thing as saying "it isn't a relevant survey".
Keep in mind, I agree with agrumpyoldsod. But he didn't say what you said he did.
PLShutterbug
Veteran Member
Too early on the morning, and before coffee. I’m two hours behind my normal time now … anyway, I completely missed that the “what evidence” question was to areallygrumpyoldsod, not to the OP. Oops.
They asked 1000 photographers? And got info about Professionals and Amateurs, so at best it was 500 of each? They are trying to tell me that, for Amateurs, the most used cameras is NOT a smart phone?
A lot of people must buy camera and just not use them, or weren't asked. Another recent "poll", by BH Photo stats, says that of the top 9 selling cameras this year, 3 were Sony, 3 were Canon, 2 were Nikons... and the other was a Kodak. Yup, Kodak.
Since the Nikon placing on the list was 6th and 9th, it kind of doesn't line up with the other poll. All semantics. Oh yeah, by the way, the Kodak was 3rd.
A lot of people must buy camera and just not use them, or weren't asked. Another recent "poll", by BH Photo stats, says that of the top 9 selling cameras this year, 3 were Sony, 3 were Canon, 2 were Nikons... and the other was a Kodak. Yup, Kodak.
Since the Nikon placing on the list was 6th and 9th, it kind of doesn't line up with the other poll. All semantics. Oh yeah, by the way, the Kodak was 3rd.
Same here. Late 70s through the mid 80s, Nikon had 99% of the PJ market - I knew one guy each shooting Pentax and Canon. Things changed radically after I left the business in the mid 80s.
To the post, I really don’t think Nikon has that much share right now. Only the smart pros are shooting Nikon. /snark
Chuck Yadmark
Veteran Member
I can tell you with 100% certainty that in the NASCAR photo room it is at least 80% Canon. And 99% sure its about 95% Canon.
MercedRiver
Well-known member
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I'm a Nikon pro. I use pro-bodies and pro lenses. I wear all black and have a baseball cap that states I'm a pro. I have at minimum three cameras around my neck and always shoot using C-AF at 120 frames per second, even at static objects like trees. I shoot in bracket mode going three stops either way. My work is sold in galleries, magazines, and stock agencies and hangs on the wall of prominent business leaders and brilliant luminaries. My Instagram feed has millions of followers showcasing my most extraordinary work. My output is in JPEG, and I choose Nikon because its output has the best colors. Sony and Canon have muted colors and a magenta-green cast making inferior photographs. I never use a tripod and can hand hold a 600mm lens at 3 seconds. I am an ambassador and represent the best photography has to offer. I polish my gear after every use and store my lenses and bodies in a nitrogen-filled room to offset rubber oxidation. This is what it means to be a real pro. My wife is super hot, and she is good at finding lost things like lens caps.
Nice reading for the Nikon devotees (like me , long time, former pro, retired now Nikon shooter ) but IMO only wishfull thinking
When I got my 1st F2AS and FE in the late 70's , despite Canon's vigorous attacks (which I was kept informed about by a acquaintance who worked at Canon Europe) Nikon was the nr 1 brand, with consequently a wide dealer network, Nikon dedicated third party accessories and wide selection of 2d hand offerings
But that came to an end with the introduction of AF, when Nikon got a (justly so, I hate to admit) beating from Canon due to holding on too long to the slow AF F4. Thanks to the faster and constantly improved AF of eg the EOS 1 and 1n, clver markering (impossible o ignore white lenses) and simply persuading photographers to change brand by making attractive financial deals Canon ruled sports and PJ, and consequently much of the amateurr market.
Nikon seemed to make a comeback with the D1. But when its pro level models too long used noisy DX sensors, Canon soon overcame that too with better high ISO and FX sensors bodies
It only was with the 2008 D3 that Nikon made a serious return, although at best only perhaps on par with Canon
Histry kind of repeated itself with mirrorless, with Nikon just releasing pro level ( the Nikon 1 series really were advanced amateur at best) full frame bodies (DX even later) four years ago,while in particular Sony, as well as Canon had had offerings around for years
Sure , the Z9 by many reviewrs is considered to be at the top of the pinnacle rigt now. But the 'lower' grade bodies like the Z6/Z6II and Z7/Z7II in all honesty (still fondly use my 2018 Z6 alongside my 2021 Z7II) simply trail their competitrs
At the events (catwalk, dance and shoots ) I despite my retirement still drop by to take pictures (can't resist it) Nikon still is the underdog, alongside a lot of Canon's and Sony's
So IMO , 'Nikon most used' a nice thing to dream about, but realy only wishful thinking. Althiough that won't make me switch brands
??? Where do you see that ???
He said quote, “It is an entirely irrelevant survey and not remotely scientific. ” Bold and underlined above.
Nevertheless, he said he provided feedback to the survey authors so I’m ok with that.
For what it’s worth, I never said I agreed with the survey. In my initial post (second post in this thread), I offered some observations and indicated some skepticism by stating “taking at face value”.
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PLShutterbug
Veteran Member
Read my reply to Mike Dawson where he also pointed out my error.
OK thanks, sorry I wasn’t trying to to “rub it in”. As I also said I’m not defending the validity of the survey.
peripheralfocus
Veteran Member
In the 1980s, Nikon often stated in their advertising that "7 out of 10 professional photographers who use 35mm use Nikon". That's all pros, not just photojournalists.
Nikon established that figure by hiring professional market research firms around the world to do statistically valid studies -- the firms did random sampling of members of professional trade associations for PJs, wedding and portrait pros, advertising photographers, technical and forensic photographers etc. That was strong enough evidence that Nikon could make the claim publicly in their advertising without fear that they'd get sued.
I saw the results of those studies a couple of times. Canon held the second position with about 15% market share, on average over that time, and everybody else was well below 10%. Again, this is for 35mm only, and includes all types of professional photographers.
As you noted, it all changed beginning in the early 1990s, after Canon introduced the EOS-1 and built out the system. Over the course of the 90s, Canon took over the market share lead among pros using 35mm, and then among pros using digital, and have held it ever since.
(As a side note: In the total market for ILC cameras -- i.e. not limited to just pros -- Nikon was never #1. In the late 1960s and early 70s, Pentax led the market; Canon led the market from the mid 70s to mid 80s, Minolta briefly led the market in the mid 80s; there was no clear leader in the late 80s; then Canon took the lead again in the early 1990s and has held it ever since.)
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peripheralfocus
Veteran Member
Your general narrative is nicely accurate (although just to clarify: for the pro market only; the story is different for the total consumer ILC camera market).
Only quibble I'd note is this:
Both companies trailed Sony into the full-frame mirrorless market by 5 years. And that mistake, which both Canon and Nikon made, allowed Sony to turn the market for serious/pro/high-end cameras into a 3-player game, instead of the 2-player game that it had been since the 1990s.
Only quibble I'd note is this:
Canon did not have any pro or high-end mirrorless cameras before Nikon. Nikon actually beat Canon to the full-frame/high-end mirrorless market (only by 3 months, but still).
Both companies trailed Sony into the full-frame mirrorless market by 5 years. And that mistake, which both Canon and Nikon made, allowed Sony to turn the market for serious/pro/high-end cameras into a 3-player game, instead of the 2-player game that it had been since the 1990s.
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Aside from questions regarding the reliability of the poll, there's this:
Most popular isn't the same as used by most people!
The most popular camera brand for a long time now has been Canon, but most people don't shoot Canon. Their market share is well under 50%.
Yet the OP turns a claim by a third party that Nikon is the most popular brand (31%) among photography pros into an assertion in the thread title that Nikon is what most pros use.
This is logically invalid, factually wrong (if taking the poll at face value), and just really sloppy posting. C'mon!
Most popular isn't the same as used by most people!
The most popular camera brand for a long time now has been Canon, but most people don't shoot Canon. Their market share is well under 50%.
Yet the OP turns a claim by a third party that Nikon is the most popular brand (31%) among photography pros into an assertion in the thread title that Nikon is what most pros use.
This is logically invalid, factually wrong (if taking the poll at face value), and just really sloppy posting. C'mon!
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photography-lover
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A few things:
- one key area you didn’t describe accurately is the start of FF mirrorless. Sony was clearly ahead but the first gen of Canon R/Rp) vs Nikon (z6/z7) was very clearly a large Nikon win
- it’s only with R6/R5 that Canon delivered appealing bodies, certainly a lot more appealing than the Z6II/Z7II in absolute terms, but most importantly relative to Canon’s lukewarm DSLRs. So they convinced a large part of their remaining DSLR owners to switch while D750/D850 owners were still perfectly happy thanks to their higher level of performance (sensor, AF,…).
so the results reported here make perfect sense. Most Sony shooters come from Canon. There are still many Nikon DSLR shooters for whom the Z9 was not the answer and who are waiting for the next gen that is just around the corner with the Z8. This is why the most used Nikon cameras are the D750 and D850. I used to own both with a D5. Amazing cameras and significantly better than the equivalent Canon bodies.
It’s obvious that the Z8 will have best in class AF and will trigger a large migration from D750 and D850 remaining owners. Similar to the R5/R6.
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photography-lover
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Canon’s marketshare is mostly low end aps-c dslrs and M mount mirrorless. Mostly not used by pros, at least not as main cameras.
it’s absolutely not incompatible with the results of this poll focusing on pros.
And this poll is about what camera brand is used by most pros. It’s exactly what it is.
To add one data point, here is Japan most pros I know who used to shoot Canon moved to Sony. The only ones still shooting Canon just couldn’t afford to switch. Not the most successful ones.
Then you have agencies on multi-year contracts with Canon who use their inferior position to negotiate on price and Canon plays ball just to preserve the appearances of a brand still successful. It’s pretty ugly really.
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You're completely missing my point. My mention of Canon was only to give an example of how most popular in a group isn't "most".
The poll claims 31% of pros use Nikon. Lets assume for the moment that's true. 31% isn't most, period. That's my point.
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