Deep vs shallow umbrella?

[Bazinga15]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to indoor studio photography. I'm looking into buying a large white interior umbrella for indoor studio portraits. I'll start out using my existing 1 or 2 Godox speedlights, until I can invest in a strobe.

I understand that the larger the umbrella, the softer the light or more "window light" effect it gives. But what about the depth? Shallow vs deep umbrella?

I have done a portrait/beauty shoot with the large 7-foot Westcot and I loved the effect. But it is really big, and I'm wondering if I can achieve the same look with the smaller 51" IMPACT umbrella listed below. But it has a deeper shape, so does anyone know how that affects the look of the light?

My setup for portrait and 3/4 is one large white interior umbrella setup above and slightly off-center, with a white reflector underneath to fill. I do like how the 7' umbrella looked in the final images, but I'm wondering if I could get a similar look with the smaller, deeper umbrella.

My main work is focused on outdoor natural light photography, but I'm trying indoor studio work as a creative hobby. So I don't want to spend more than I really have to.

Options:

1. $54 IMPACT deep white umbrella ( 51” inches across open face ) - I am considering this one.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1316321-REG/impact_udw_l_51i_deep_umbrella_white.html/qa

2. $59.97 Impact 7' Improved Parabolic Umbrella (White/Black) ( 72” inches across open face )

:https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...7wbi_7_parabolic_umbrella_white_black.html/qa

3. $100 Westcott 7' Umbrella (White / Black) ( 70" inches across open face )

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...4634_7_Parabolic_Umbrella_White_Black.html/qa

p.s. I know the best option would be to test them out and then decide, but unfortunately, I live in a country where I cannot rent or purchase/return equipment. I'll be ordering the umbrella online and shipping it to my country.

I appreciate any advice or guidance you might have

 

[Ellis Vener]

In theory, a deeper umbrella will narrow the beam of light reflected by the umbrella. Will it make a difference? In some circumstances, it might. That narrower spread of light, in theory, will give you more chances to control the quality of the light. Will a viewer notice? Maybe. But the way to know is to try both so you can see and learn the differences for yourself. There is no shortcut to learning what you can do with light.

 

[Darrell Spreen]

I have both a deep and a shallow umbrella of a smaller size (roughly 43") and I don't notice any difference in quality of light (I haven't done precision experiments). I bought the deep umbrella with the intent of controlling spill better and it may do that.

However, I find I often aim an umbrella at an angle to feather the light, in which case spill is a natural "side effect".

I have also used a shallow umbrella in a partially collapsed way when I don't need a large light source and get some of the spill control I expect with a deep umbrella.

The biggest difference I notice is that the deep umbrella is significantly heavier and puts more stress on my lightstand umbrella bracket.

--
DS

 

[Gato Amarillo]

...

My setup for portrait and 3/4 is one large white interior umbrella setup above and slightly off-center, with a white reflector underneath to fill. I do like how the 7' umbrella looked in the final images, but I'm wondering if I could get a similar look with the smaller, deeper umbrella.

If I understand your setup the size is probably more important than the shape.

There are really too many variables to generalize -- size of room, how you set the light in the umbrella, distance to subject, precise shape of the umbrella, and so on.

You would expect the smaller umbrella to give a more contrasty look with less 'wrap' of the light, used in the same position at the same distance to the subject. A deeper shape would emphasize the difference. In a small room with reflective walls the difference may be very small, but in a larger space you might see some increase in contrast or slightly harder shadows.

In the end, as others have said, you won't know until you try. If your problem is the size of the umbrella you won't gain much by going with another 7 foot, and a parabolic will be deeper so you may need more ceiling height or working space. If you decide to try I suggest you go with the 54 inch, but expect to see some difference in your photos.

Gato

 

[ronscuba]

A deep umbrella will have quicker transitions to shadow. The opposite of making it look like a larger umbrella. Although the effect is better see with silver than white.

The 51" will not look the same as a 72" unless you can position it closer to the subject, but still be out of camera frame.

Since you used and liked the 7', I think that is what you should get.

--
https://www.ronchauphoto.com/
https://www.instagram.com/rchau.photo

 

[AstroVagabond]

My main work is focused on outdoor natural light photography, but I'm trying indoor studio work as a creative hobby. So I don't want to spend more than I really have to.

I appreciate any advice or guidance you might have

I agree with Ellis who provided the perfect answer in my view based upon my experiences.

You mention you are mostly outdoor natural light focused. There may come a point where you will want to mix flash with ambient light outdoors for fill flash. A smaller umbrella would be my choice over a larger umbrella for portability and ability to anchor with sand bags if windy.

 

[Bazinga15]

Thank you everyone for such helpful responses! I love these forums It would be ideal to try all three options and return the ones that do not work, but I am shipping them to my country and cannot return them once purchased.

So after reading your replies and re-evaluating my setup, the 7-inch umbrella is too big for my home studio space. I took out the measuring tape, yep! Too big.

There is a studio that I can rent which has a large 7-inch umbrella, so until I have a bigger space at home I will go there when I want to use the large umbrella.

I'm now looking at this option for my home studio:

$49.95 64” White PLM™ Umbrella - ( 54 in. across the open face, 4.5 feet. )

https://www.paulcbuff.com/Light-Modifiers/PLM-Umbrellas/64-White-PLM-Umbrella.html

+ diffuser & black back panel , Total = $109

I don't think a deep umbrella would give me the look I am going for, so this might be a good option. Has anyone tried it, and what were your thoughts?

Or, can anyone recommend another 5' - 6' white interior umbrella with a solid black back? I would be using it as a bounce ( flash pointing towards the inside of the umbrella on an s-bracket ) with and without a diffuser to create a softbox effect for close beauty portraits.

Thank you again, you are all so helpful.

 

[Jacques Cornell]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to indoor studio photography. I'm looking into buying a large white interior umbrella for indoor studio portraits. I'll start out using my existing 1 or 2 Godox speedlights, until I can invest in a strobe.

I understand that the larger the umbrella, the softer the light or more "window light" effect it gives. But what about the depth? Shallow vs deep umbrella?

I have done a portrait/beauty shoot with the large 7-foot Westcot and I loved the effect. But it is really big, and I'm wondering if I can achieve the same look with the smaller 51" IMPACT umbrella listed below. But it has a deeper shape, so does anyone know how that affects the look of the light?

My setup for portrait and 3/4 is one large white interior umbrella setup above and slightly off-center, with a white reflector underneath to fill. I do like how the 7' umbrella looked in the final images, but I'm wondering if I could get a similar look with the smaller, deeper umbrella.

My main work is focused on outdoor natural light photography, but I'm trying indoor studio work as a creative hobby. So I don't want to spend more than I really have to.

Options:

1. $54 IMPACT deep white umbrella ( 51” inches across open face ) - I am considering this one.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1316321-REG/impact_udw_l_51i_deep_umbrella_white.html/qa

2. $59.97 Impact 7' Improved Parabolic Umbrella (White/Black) ( 72” inches across open face )

:https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...7wbi_7_parabolic_umbrella_white_black.html/qa

3. $100 Westcott 7' Umbrella (White / Black) ( 70" inches across open face )

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...4634_7_Parabolic_Umbrella_White_Black.html/qa

p.s. I know the best option would be to test them out and then decide, but unfortunately, I live in a country where I cannot rent or purchase/return equipment. I'll be ordering the umbrella online and shipping it to my country.

I appreciate any advice or guidance you might have

I've never used deep umbrellas and know little about their supposed advantages. What I can tell you is that, if you're considering parabolic umbrellas, the parabolic effect has nothing to do with depth. A parabola, by definition, reflects all light emitted at the focal point in a column that is the width of the reflector, with no spread or spill, and this is true whether the parabola is deep or shallow. Umbrellas are imperfect reflectors, so the light is not perfectly collimated, but a good parabolic umbrella definitely can have the benefit of less spread/spill and thus less fall-off over distance. One can get a similar effect with a grid on other mods, but this eats power.

I recommend you check out Paul C. Buff's PLM parabolic umbrellas. They're well-made, quite affordable and versatile. The Soft Silver variant is very efficient, allowing me to work with speedlights at 1/2 or 1/4 power for fast recycle, and produces a very "sunny" look. If I want less contrast and smoother shadow-highlight transitions, I can put the optional diffusion cover on it to turn it into a softbox. I have one of each size (51", 64" and 86"), and my event portrait clients love the "sunny" look. The two larger ones are great for 3/4 portraits.

Unfortunately, these are not widely sold outside the U.S., but I've read there is at least one distributor in Europe that does not charge a huge mark-up.

 

[Bazinga15]

I was just looking at these! I'm considering this one, it's 54 inches across the open face if my conversion is correct.

64” White PLM™ Umbrella - ( 54 in. across the open face, 4.5 feet. )

Do you have examples of portraits taken with this umbrella? I'd like to see what you mean by a sunny look. Do you mean a portrait with harder shadows and contrast?

Thank you!

 

[Jacques Cornell]

I was just looking at these! I'm considering this one, it's 54 inches across the open face if my conversion is correct.

Sounds right.

64” White PLM™ Umbrella - ( 54 in. across the open face, 4.5 feet. )

Do you have examples of portraits taken with this umbrella? I'd like to see what you mean by a sunny look. Do you mean a portrait with harder shadows and contrast?

Thank you!

This would look "sunnier" if I brightened it up a bit. I did no postproduction here, as these were straight OOC and printed onsite. I had the 64" as key 30 degrees camera left and a 51" for fill -1EV 30 degrees camera right. I expect this would look a bit flatter if I'd used my 42" Westcott Collapsing Umbrellas instead. Also, the larger PLMs helped minimize the shadows on the backdrop, which was only about 2'/60cm behind the subjects.



--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
http://jacquescornell.photography
http://happening.photos

 

[Jacques Cornell]

Thank you everyone for such helpful responses! I love these forums It would be ideal to try all three options and return the ones that do not work, but I am shipping them to my country and cannot return them once purchased.

So after reading your replies and re-evaluating my setup, the 7-inch umbrella is too big for my home studio space. I took out the measuring tape, yep! Too big.

There is a studio that I can rent which has a large 7-inch umbrella, so until I have a bigger space at home I will go there when I want to use the large umbrella.

I'm now looking at this option for my home studio:

$49.95 64” White PLM™ Umbrella - ( 54 in. across the open face, 4.5 feet. )

https://www.paulcbuff.com/Light-Modifiers/PLM-Umbrellas/64-White-PLM-Umbrella.html

+ diffuser & black back panel , Total = $109

I'd get the Soft Silver version. A white interior diffuses the light so much that it effectively erases the benefit of having a parabolic. And, it won't give you the "sunny" look I described in another post. Also, in a small space, a white umbrella used shoot-thru throws too much light all around the room, making control impossible. You may end up with just mushy flat light on your subjects. Put the diffusion cover on the Soft Silver for an effect somewhere between the naked Soft Silver and a white shoot-thru while still retaining some control over spill.

I really have no use for white shoot-thru for portraits. The only way I can imagine using it would be for lighting interiors, where I really want to throw light all over the place.

I don't think a deep umbrella would give me the look I am going for, so this might be a good option. Has anyone tried it, and what were your thoughts?

Or, can anyone recommend another 5' - 6' white interior umbrella with a solid black back? I would be using it as a bounce ( flash pointing towards the inside of the umbrella on an s-bracket ) with and without a diffuser to create a softbox effect for close beauty portraits.

Thank you again, you are all so helpful.

 

[Jacques Cornell]

...

My setup for portrait and 3/4 is one large white interior umbrella setup above and slightly off-center, with a white reflector underneath to fill. I do like how the 7' umbrella looked in the final images, but I'm wondering if I could get a similar look with the smaller, deeper umbrella.

If I understand your setup the size is probably more important than the shape.

There are really too many variables to generalize -- size of room, how you set the light in the umbrella, distance to subject, precise shape of the umbrella, and so on.

You would expect the smaller umbrella to give a more contrasty look with less 'wrap' of the light, used in the same position at the same distance to the subject. A deeper shape would emphasize the difference. In a small room with reflective walls the difference may be very small, but in a larger space you might see some increase in contrast or slightly harder shadows.

In the end, as others have said, you won't know until you try. If your problem is the size of the umbrella you won't gain much by going with another 7 foot, and a parabolic will be deeper

Not necessarily. Deep "parabolics" are all the rage these days, but there's no reason why a parabola needs to be deep. Paul C. Buff's PLMs are among the better-shaped parabolics on the market today, and they're no deeper than conventional umbrellas. They also have very short shafts, which enables placement quite close to the subject.

so you may need more ceiling height or working space. If you decide to try I suggest you go with the 54 inch, but expect to see some difference in your photos.

In conference rooms with relatively low ceilings, where my 86" would be too big, I find the 64" PLM to be perfect for 3/4 portraits.

Gato

 

[ronscuba]

This video does a good job showing the difference btw umbrella white, silver, silver w/diffusion.



--
https://www.ronchauphoto.com/
https://www.instagram.com/rchau.photo

 

[Bazinga15]

This video does a good job showing the difference btw umbrella white, silver, silver w/diffusion.

This video was so helpful, thank you so much!! I searched youtube and found a few videos, but this one wasn't showing up. It's very clear in showing the differences.

 

[Ed Shapiro]

The differences between deep and shallow umbrellas o the same size and reflective surface can be negligible or very different. It depends on how much you know about lighting theory and how you use the umbrella. Both types of umbrellas can produce a soft even GENERAL lighting pattern. You can flood an area or subject with soft even light or create directional light, expose correctly and leave it at that.

For a more specific and controlled effect, there are many caveats and techniques to consider. Many different effects can be had for the same umbrella by changing the distance for the primary ligt source (flash or continuous light) of the strobe, lamp head, or monolight from the reflective surface. By partially OR completely lighting the inner surface of the umbrella, various effects are obtainable.

If you consider the angle of incidence theory you will notice that the light bouncing from various areas or fascets of the umbrella's inner surface, will strike the subject in different t ways.

A deep umbrella will have a similar effect as a standard metal parabolic refectlr as to FEATHEIRNG. Using the edge of the beam is more easlity defined.

Of course, the traditional light "rules" apply to umbrellas- same as any lighting configuration. The closer to the subject, the softer effect, ther further the harder. The larger the light source is, in relation to the subject's size, the softer the result, the smaller the harder. The angle of incidence of the entire light unit will control intensity and specularity. A light place at 90 to 135 degrees to the came/subject axis will seem more intense that the slight place from zero to 45 degrees, even if the distance and exposure are exactly the same,

This sounds like too much technobabble but if you make the aformentio adjustment as to size, distance, and lighting angel, you will find that you can vary the effect of any umbrella setup.



Ed Shapiro- Commercial and Portrait Photographer. Ottawa, Ontario Canada