Moon Photography Using EOS R5

mastermanphoto

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I've attempted multiple times to capture the full or near-full moon using the following gear:
  • Tripod
  • Canon EOS R5
  • Canon RF-EF adapter
  • Sigma 1.4x TC
  • Sigma Contemporary 150-600mm f/5.0-6.3 DG OS HSM lens
Also note:
  • I was in manual focus on the moon, which seemed to focus just fine in the moment
  • I had lens OS (Optical Stability) off, but still had the camera's IBIS system on
  • I was shooting in RAW mode
  • I was at the max zoom of the lens, which realistically means I had a focal length of 840mm
  • I was using the Canon "Camera Connect" app on my iPhone 12 Pro to do live shooting
  • I was still using the old 1.5.1 Canon firmware at the time (I don't believe that matters much)
  • The Sigma lens firmware was verified as up to date
I usually crop my images of the moon to fill the full frame, and I figured by using this stackup my images would be even sharper, given the much higher megapixel count of the R5 compared to my old 6D MkII and due to the longer reach of the lens using the teleconverter. Understand that the TC brings the new min f-stop to f/9, but that's more than enough for a full or near full moon.

Unfortunately, when I zoom in and crop the images, the moon still looks a bit blurry, especially when compared to images taken using the same method and same lens on my old DSLR but with no TC. Even when trying to sharpen them in post-processing they still don't look very good. To reiterate, there didn't appear to be any issue manually focusing on the moon in real time.

Does anyone know what I may be doing wrong? Do I need to turn IBIS off on the camera itself? Is it the remote shooting from my phone that's the problem?
 
I'm eager to read some replies but I've had mixed results with 5D4 and Tamron 150-600. Couple of thoughts or suggestions:

1. Mirror lockup

2. Set timer for 2 or 10 seconds to snap photo.

3. Set lens focal length and use LCD live view to focus. I think focusing on the curvature is better than "the whole moon".

4. Don't overexpose. Photos will be brighter than they appear in your LCD.

I don't know that you need the 1.4 tele. 5D should crop without any issues. I've yet to take moon shots with my 5D.

Also, I had a heck of a time centering the moon with my tripod until I got a Monfretto geared head. More info if you need it.

Kent
 
I've attempted multiple times to capture the full or near-full moon using the following gear:
  • Tripod
  • Canon EOS R5
  • Canon RF-EF adapter
  • Sigma 1.4x TC
  • Sigma Contemporary 150-600mm f/5.0-6.3 DG OS HSM lens
Also note:
  • I was in manual focus on the moon, which seemed to focus just fine in the moment
  • I had lens OS (Optical Stability) off, but still had the camera's IBIS system on
  • I was shooting in RAW mode
  • I was at the max zoom of the lens, which realistically means I had a focal length of 840mm
  • I was using the Canon "Camera Connect" app on my iPhone 12 Pro to do live shooting
  • I was still using the old 1.5.1 Canon firmware at the time (I don't believe that matters much)
  • The Sigma lens firmware was verified as up to date
I usually crop my images of the moon to fill the full frame, and I figured by using this stackup my images would be even sharper, given the much higher megapixel count of the R5 compared to my old 6D MkII and due to the longer reach of the lens using the teleconverter. Understand that the TC brings the new min f-stop to f/9, but that's more than enough for a full or near full moon.

Unfortunately, when I zoom in and crop the images, the moon still looks a bit blurry, especially when compared to images taken using the same method and same lens on my old DSLR but with no TC. Even when trying to sharpen them in post-processing they still don't look very good. To reiterate, there didn't appear to be any issue manually focusing on the moon in real time.

Does anyone know what I may be doing wrong? Do I need to turn IBIS off on the camera itself? Is it the remote shooting from my phone that's the problem?
A picture is worth a thousand words. Is the blur general, or is it more blurred in one direction? The latter would suggest wobbling on the tripod, the former could also be due to focussing. The exposure would be somewhere near 1/100 @ f/11 @ ISO 100, so you will need to set the tripod up rigidly.

Switching the lens OS off should switch the IBIS off too, as with the R5 and R6 it's all or nothing in the stabilisation department. It wouldn't hurt to check if you can actually switch IBIS off on the menu with our OS switched off on the lens, because it's not a Canon lens.

Focussing on the full moon is notoriously difficult. Using the match-triangles focus aid on the edge of the moon, or on the terminator if it's not quite full, will get you quite near, but there's no substitute for 10× magnification through the EVF or and using a magnifying glass on the rear screen, still with 10× magnification set as well.
 
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The full moon is so bright you should be able to shoot handheld at a fairly fast shutter speed at moderate ISOs. Try starting at something around f5.6 ISO 400 at 1/200 of a second. Bracket your shots and try faster shutter speeds, different ISOs etc. With digital cameras you can try numerous combinations and nail a nice sharp shot. Unless your lens isn’t sharp.
 
What were your shutter speed and aperture?

How sturdy is your tripod? You’re supporting a pretty hefty setup with really long focal length. You need a heavy duty tripod if your shutter speed isn’t fast enough.

Please post images with full exif data.
 
The 150-600mm C is sharp wide open at 600mm, but less so than below 300mm. For me, with the Canon 2x TC III, it's not sharp wide open fully zoomed in, to the point where it's not worth using. Because of that, bought the Canon 1.4x TC III also but I haven't tried it with the Sigma yet.

Point being that maybe you're expecting too much. At 45mp, the R5 sensor is going to demand more for lenses. My Sigma 85mm 1.4 Art was solid on the 5D4, but was not that good unless I was at f/2 on the R5. Even then, there was too much CA and there was still something odd about the way it rendered.
 
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I've attempted multiple times to capture the full or near-full moon using the following gear:
  • Tripod
  • Canon EOS R5
  • Canon RF-EF adapter
  • Sigma 1.4x TC
  • Sigma Contemporary 150-600mm f/5.0-6.3 DG OS HSM lens
The Sigma 150-600mm C should give you acceptable results but there's some disagreement with sharpness with this lens. It may or may not be subject to copy-to-copy variation although I haven't had this confirmed. The teleconverter with the 150-600mm lens is said to be known to produce softer images so be wary of this. It may NOT be an issue with your setup.
Also note:
  • I was in manual focus on the moon, which seemed to focus just fine in the moment
  • I had lens OS (Optical Stability) off, but still had the camera's IBIS system on
  • I was shooting in RAW mode
  • I was at the max zoom of the lens, which realistically means I had a focal length of 840mm
  • I was using the Canon "Camera Connect" app on my iPhone 12 Pro to do live shooting
  • I was still using the old 1.5.1 Canon firmware at the time (I don't believe that matters much)
  • The Sigma lens firmware was verified as up to date
It looks like all is well. I can't see any issues with your equipment or decisions.
I usually crop my images of the moon to fill the full frame, and I figured by using this stackup my images would be even sharper, given the much higher megapixel count of the R5 compared to my old 6D MkII and due to the longer reach of the lens using the teleconverter. Understand that the TC brings the new min f-stop to f/9, but that's more than enough for a full or near full moon.
Full Frame cameras can be quite 'distant' when photographing the moon because there's no internal crop of the image circle like there is with APS-C camera. You have some alternatives though and the EOS R5 can crop tighter due to the sensor crowding. The best thing about Full Moons is that you have plenty of light to work with. Crescent Moons can be much harder because there's a lot less light involved.
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It's very hard to comment without seeing examples of what you are unhappy with. But your focal length ought to be fine. The lens should be fine. Shooting in RAW means you need to edit your images to reveal the details and apply sharpening or curves etc as effectively as possible. I'm a JPEG shooter so I let the camera handle the basics whilst I tend to edit my images afterwards. I ensure that my settings aren't too aggressive (like sharpening) and that leaves me with plenty of room to tweak the images afterwards.
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I'd probably pass on using iPhone software to nail the Auto Focus. It would be less problematic to manually focus your lens (or Auto-Focus the lens) and then lock off the focus by switching to Manual (MF) focus. Use your phone to take the pictures if you want to but be sure to lock focus using the camera/lens.
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Stacking images is becoming popular these days. This method can reduce noise whilst adding more dynamic range but they can sometimes result in over-worked and oversharpened images. If think that most people who stack lunar images tend to be stacking high resolution video frames. This gives them a lot of data to extract from. I haven't bothered with stacking at this point though. You could also consider I.A. software to increase existing resolution. I've not used it for Astro but I do use Gigapixel A.I. (from Topaz Labs) to upscale my images occasionally. It's phenomenal for landscapes. Again, I'd consider using it with RAW images and Gigapixel A.I. has a RAW mode template.
Unfortunately, when I zoom in and crop the images, the moon still looks a bit blurry, especially when compared to images taken using the same method and same lens on my old DSLR but with no TC. Even when trying to sharpen them in post-processing they still don't look very good. To reiterate, there didn't appear to be any issue manually focusing on the moon in real time.

Does anyone know what I may be doing wrong? Do I need to turn IBIS off on the camera itself? Is it the remote shooting from my phone that's the problem?
I'd leave the IBIS alone since it hasn't affected my own shots and I think it only kicks in when movement of the camera is in play. Focusing on a partial moon is easy enough. My method with a partial moon is to focus on the cratered areas. I find that this helps me lock focus accurately. I'll even use the moon as a focus-locking-target for photographing stars, planets or even high aircraft or the International Space Station (ISS) prior to it flying overhead. But a Full Moon can be more of a challenge because now you lose all the crater details in the shadows so you use the EDGE of the Moon as your focus target. I've been doing it this way for years without any problems. The method is quite reliable. No shadow on the moon means it will always look softer and without much detail. It's better to photograph it with some shadow if you want to be viewing craters etc.
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400mm lens + 2x Extender (800mm) - Full Frame compared to APS-C


EOS R6 + EF 100-400mmL II + EF 2x III Extender.* Note the area I've chosen to lock focus on. The region where the lunar crater details are sharp and clear. If the moon is full, I'll use the edge of the rim of the Moon for AF lock.

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For Image Stabilization, it hasn't been an issue for me to leave it on or turn it off. With lens stabilization (OIS) I tend to turn it off whenever I remember to do so. With a conventional tripod I sometimes leave it on. IBIS appears to be reactive so I haven't bothered to look at deactivating it.
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Some planning helps with lunar photography. And different focal lengths can produce some wonderful results. If you want a large moon in the frame, you'll want to be using Extenders with longer lenses. A 400mm lens on a Full Frame sensor is still quite small.
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EOS R6 + RF 85mm f/1.2L USM lens


EOS R6 + EF 100-400mmL II lens (at 100mm)


EOS R6 + EF 100-400mmL II lens (at 400mm)


EOS R6 + EF 100-400mmL II lanes (at 400mm + EF 2x III Extender) * Supermoon Rising - slightly cropped due to a tree that was in the foreground. There was a lot of smoke in the air on this occasions due to backburning in preparation for summer bushfire seasons. The lower half of the moon is partly occluded by the heavy smoke in the air.


EOS M6 + EF 100-400mmL II lens + EF 2x III Extender. (APS-C)* 2021 Lunar Eclipse (Moon Phases, including Supermoon-rise)


EOS M6 + EF 100-400mmL + EF 2x III Extender * Saturn approaching the Moon (cropped)


EOS M6 (APS-C) + EF 100-400mmL II + EF 1.4x III + EF 2x III Extenders* Handheld and cropped by more than 50%


EOS M (APS-C) + EF 100-400mmL II + EF 2x III Extender* Cropped ** Shot in the late afternoon, hence the blue sky.

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Considering APS-C?
With Lunar Photography, a LOT of photographers prefer to shoot with APS-C unless other factors are in play. With Canon APS-C cameras you get an additional 1.61x due to the crop. That crop has no additional glass involved so image integrity is unaffected. Add an extender to the mix and you can get quite close to the moon. If you're interesting in lunar photography and you have any EF mount lenses, consider an EOS M camera with an EF-M-to-EF lens adapter.
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Prime Photography with Scopes
Another thing you may consider is using either a telescope or a spotting scope instead of a lens (if you want to get closer to the moon). Canon recently patented an RF lens of a type that's known as a catadioptric lens. It's an old design and it's a design used on some telescopes to gain strong magnification. Whilst nobody knows when this new RF lens will arrive or even if it will be made commercially available. But you can get very strong magnification by using your camera with a Maksutov-type spotting scope... which can offer you well over 2,000mm of focal length or more. The scope essentially becomes a Prime Lens. If lunar photography is an interest and you feel you need even more magnification than you presently have, then this is an option. Apertures on these types of scopes tend to be between f/10-f14 so make a note of that. You may prefer the extra light from your lens.
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The best time to photograph the moon is when it's higher in the sky. If you shoot it closer to the horizon then you're shooting through more of the atmosphere and this will soften the details. Hence moonrise and moonset shots tend to show little detail or contrast.

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Regards,
Marco Nero.
 

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Lots of good suggestions so far but there's one bit that I'm still missing seeing...what's the weather, temperatures and how far above the horizon is the moon when you are trying these shots?

Atmospherics like heat, wind, humidity and distance (shooting the moon while close to the horizon) can quickly ruin any kind of detail even at ideal settings.
Stacking shots with a program that only extracts portions of fine detail can overcome some effects of atmospherics.

Be around 2 years since I last shot the moon, from memory I stacked 20 odd shots using Registax 6, ancient but still does a decent job.

Yes, the moon is upside down here in Australia.
Yes, the moon is upside down here in Australia.



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The most common causes for unsharp moon images are:

- Movement blur (hand held, mirror in DSLRs, shutter shock)

- Focus blur (slightly out of focus)

- Air currents (turbulent air - usually overlooked but still relevant)

Most likely you are comparing images taken is steady air to images taken trough a turbulent atmosphere. With long focal lenghts turbulence makes a huge difference.
 
Marco, that second to last shot is absolutely stunning. Also the depth of insight which you have written up - which you do in so many posts. Well done.
 
Marco, that second to last shot is absolutely stunning. Also the depth of insight which you have written up - which you do in so many posts. Well done.
Thank you for you thoughtful words. I'm happy to share my own observations and experiences here in the hope that settings and methods can assist others. Something I often do is write down ideal settings that worked well before so that if I'm using the same lens or camera again I can be fairly certain to reproduce similar results.
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A wider view from the same set (uncropped).


One of my favorite two moon photographs was this one taken with the EF-M 32mm f/1.4 STM lens during the Australian Bushfires. It was very, very difficult to expose properly with the right color hue. But this is exactly how it looked to the naked eye. I edited the image whilst staring at the moon through my window, just minutes after taking this picture... to make sure I got everything just right.

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The moon makes for great pictures, at any focal length. One of my favorite pictures was taken during the Australian bushfires with the small EF-M 32mm f/1.4 STM lens on the EOS M6. Another was taken with the EOS Ra during a full lunar eclipse (blood moon) last year (not shown because most people don't use astro-modified cameras).
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One of the first lunar photographs I took many years ago... with a $300 Celestron Mak90 spotting scope and a tiny Canon s400 PowerShot camera clamped to the eyepiece. (uncropped). This was probably the easiest lunar picture I've taken because the camera was virtually point-and-click.


EOS M6 + EF 100-400mmL II (at 200mm) * Crescent Moon with Earthshine and Jupiter (+moons) with the ISS below* This was a blend of the Moon + Jupiter in one photograph... and then a series of captures of the ISS (International Space Station) as it came into view.

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The EOS R5 offers plenty of detail if the lens in use can keep up. Whilst I don't personally use that specific model of camera, the additional pixels on the sensor ought to do very well in resolving details that otherwise might be lost on other cameras. I find that if the moon is exposed without over-exposing the bright areas, you have plenty of room to edit the final image. My processing method for larger images of the moon is to treat the mid-tones and highlights separately during editing in Photoshop. That means the darker "Oceans" or Mares are tweaked seperately to endure the borders are defined. I also pay attention to the rim of the moon which can sometimes show rippling from the atmosphere or it can tend to display LOCA where the optics of some lenses produces the Blue/Red color shift in the high contrast areas. Last of all is the attention to craters where sharpening can either over-accentuate them or render the surface flatter than looks good. I always find that less is best on all of these things. Most websites tend to add a default sharpening to thumbnails or smaller preview images like the ones visible here. But any dithering in a pale sky can become a noisy mess on occasion. The image you are editing might look great in Photoshop but when uploaded to Facebook or Instagram the same image can suddenly display dithering that's not noticable on your monitor during editing. Especially with deep blue skies shot during the late afternoon or early morning. It sometimes helps to fill in light skies with the appropriate color and just make sure the color doesn't bleed into the lunar details.
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For most lunar photography, the average tripod is just fine. If there's a strong breeze yet you think the tripod is too light and might vibrate, tie a bottle of sand or water to the tripod so it hands in the middle, below the camera. This will stabilize the tripod in most instances. A neutral density filter or even a Circular Polarizer can cut down on overexposure concerning the bright areas of the moon. Remove or tie down your camera trap to stop it flapping in the breeze because if it's windy, this can be a cause for blurry shots on occasion.
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Waiting for the moon to rise over my neighbor's tree.


Photographing the moon with a filter on the lens can prevent overexposures in some instances - although I now prefer to alter the shutter/aperture/ISO rather than cut down on the available light, especially with partial (crescent) moons.


EOS 6D (FF DSLR) - A super-distorted moon rising. It was also a partial moon (not a full moon) but it just came out amazingly stretched when it rose.

--
Regards,
Marco Nero.
 
What was the rule for minimum time vs. focal length for shooting the moon with fixed camera? Old film rules won't really work with high-res sensors.
 
What was the rule for minimum time vs. focal length for shooting the moon with fixed camera? Old film rules won't really work with high-res sensors.
The moon moves about 4 arc seconds per second. Resolution better than 1 arc second is not possible without Lucky imaging, short exposures and stacking lots of images. The atmosphere is the limit. To resolve detail as fine as 1 arc second a tekescope is needed, a telephoto lens will not do.

To get 1 arc sec resolution (you need at least a 2000 mm focal lenght or so) a maximum exposure of 1/15 sec will do. For telephoto lenses and shorter focal lenghts longer exposures will work well.

For a thin cresent and earthshine I use a star tracker and 4 - 8 sec exposures with my 100-400mm + 1.4x converter. The effective aperture is f/8. For the sunlit part of the moon much shorter exposures will do and the star tracker is not needed.

Anyway - you have a digital camera. Exposures are free. Just go outside and take some test shots and figure out what works for you.

Use manual settings and NO auto ISO!

For a start try 1/250 sec at f/8 at ISO 100 for the full moon. For a thin cresent longer exposures are needed as the light falls on the moon at an oblique angle.

Happy lunar shooting!
 
What was the rule for minimum time vs. focal length for shooting the moon with fixed camera? Old film rules won't really work with high-res sensors.
With a 45 megapixel FF sensor it would come to something like a 180 rule rather than the old film 500 rule. Say ⅕ of a second for an 840mm f/9 lens like wot ajmasterman was proposing to use. That would be over 4 stops overexposed at ISO 100, so movement during the exposure is not the problem.

Tristimulus's approach of noting the moon moves 4 arcseconds per second and the impossibility of getting better than 1 arcsecond resolution whatever the lens, even with excellent seeing, gives a maximum of ¼ of a second.

The main problem with the moon's movement is keeping it on the screen long enough to get critical focus on it with a lens that long. It moves by its own diameter in about 15 seconds. That's why a tracking equatorial mount makes things so much easier.
 
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What was the rule for minimum time vs. focal length for shooting the moon with fixed camera? Old film rules won't really work with high-res sensors.
With a 45 megapixel FF sensor it would come to something like a 180 rule rather than the old film 500 rule. Say ⅕ of a second for an 840mm f/9 lens like wot ajmasterman was proposing to use. That would be over 4 stops overexposed at ISO 100, so movement during the exposure is not the problem.

Tristimulus's approach of noting the moon moves 4 arcseconds per second and the impossibility of getting better than 1 arcsecond resolution whatever the lens, even with excellent seeing, gives a maximum of ¼ of a second.

The main problem with the moon's movement is keeping it on the screen long enough to get critical focus on it with a lens that long. It moves by its own diameter in about 15 seconds. That's why a tracking equatorial mount makes things so much easier.
4 arc seconds per second isn't the right number.

It moves a maximum of 15 arc seconds per second, as seen by a fixed telescope. If you were looking at it with a telescope that was tracking the stars, it would appear to move about 0.5 arc seconds per second (with respect to the stars) due to its orbital motion. With some telescope drives, it may be possible to adjust the rate to track the moon, but there'd be little need when long exposures aren't needed.

Arithmetic available on request.

The pixel size of an R5 is 4.39 microns, corresponding to 1.13 arc seconds with an 800mm focal length. The Bayer mosaic would mess that up, though. The diffraction limit of an 800mm f/11 lens (lambda/D) at 550nm is 1.56 arc seconds.

As for keeping the moon on the screen, it moves 360° in 24 hours, or 15° per hour. It has an apparent diameter of a half degree, so its image would move its diameter in 1/30 hour, or 120 seconds.
 
Thank you all for the answers! Those should give me enough to derive the formulas I need. I'm used to photographing somewhat closer objects, so my resolution has always been measured in micrometers, not arcs. :-D
 
Thank you all for the answers! Those should give me enough to derive the formulas I need. I'm used to photographing somewhat closer objects, so my resolution has always been measured in micrometers, not arcs. :-D
Angular movement is often measured in degrees per unit of time.

The sun and moon moves about 15 degrees per hour (360 degrees : 24 hours).

One degree = 60 arc minutes, one arc minute = 60 arc seconds (or 1/3600th of a degree).

That leaves me with an angular speed of about 4 arc seconds per second.

The great advantage of measuring movement in degrees, arc minutes, or arc seconds per unit of time is that we get an absolute measure.

Take images of a fast car moving across your field of view at 100 mph. If the car is close the angular speed is high. If far away the angular speed is low. The measure 100 mph in itself tells us nothing about how fast the car moves across the frame. The angular speed do.

Convert movement into angular speed and you can easily calculate movement blur.
 
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I think I got it. :-)

The resulting Excel calculator is available here . That is just a OneDrive link, even though it looks a bit odd.

It has the moon velocity value at 15 as per BobKnDP, but that is easy to change. I've used some factors, which are mentioned in the cell notes. Any comments?
 
When photographing the moon (and generally on a tripod) i use to turn off all IS, although I didn't really see it interfering on shots where i forgot it.

However turning the lens and camera IS on/off independently is AFAIK nothing that is possible using Canon lenses. So maybe that is some kind of lens-camera mis-communication leading to problems?

Usually I exploit my M6II for moon shots, since it gives me roughly 100% more pixels headroom for cropping (as compared to the R5, which has ~17 MPix in APS-C).

Here are some recent shots at 560 mm, just for fun (seeing Marco's pictures earlier in this thread I hope I can get my greedy hands on a used 2x TC...):

First Quarter Moon; M6II, EF 100-400 IS II @ 400 mm with 1.4 TC, cropped to taste
First Quarter Moon; M6II, EF 100-400 IS II @ 400 mm with 1.4 TC, cropped to taste

Full Moon through Sahara dust; M6II, EF 100-400 IS II @ 400 mm with 1.4 TC, cropped to taste
Full Moon through Sahara dust; M6II, EF 100-400 IS II @ 400 mm with 1.4 TC, cropped to taste

Full Moon; M6II, EF 100-400 IS II @ 400 mm with 1.4 TC, cropped to taste
Full Moon; M6II, EF 100-400 IS II @ 400 mm with 1.4 TC, cropped to taste

As you can see image sharpness also depends on the atmospheric conditions (comparing image 1 and 2 for instance).
 
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I think I got it. :-)

The resulting Excel calculator is available here . That is just a OneDrive link, even though it looks a bit odd.

It has the moon velocity value at 15 as per BobKnDP, but that is easy to change. I've used some factors, which are mentioned in the cell notes. Any comments?
One.

Note that the atmosphere is usually the limiting factor when taking lunar photographs. On bad nights even images taken with a measly 135mm lens will be distorted by turbulence.
 

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