Correcting orangey or yellowish skin-tones. Best way in Lightroom?

[evaeva0705]

The unseen ghost... Sensor reflection.

Do not underestimate how much the background colors will enter into camera, bounce off sensor, bounce back into sensor, and tint the color of your models face. The brighter the background, the more intensive the sensor reflection will be.

This is not sensor reflection, it is mainly something going on in your brain, called simultaneous contrast.

This lengthy reply will prove your point ten fold, with various camera lens combos, thank you for your corrective direction, and highlight a couple of other issues that I don't believe can be completely attributed to simultaneous contrast phenomenon.

First, to your point...

All photos same 5600K LED Continuous (no flash). Sometimes different modifiers. Refer to exif for various camera/lens combos used. All setups camera set for Daylight. All ACR set for As Shot. No color corrections.





Close up of her jaw line reveals reflections from her clothing color.







Below detail close up reveals subtle differences. Highlights are slightly more contrasty under the white backdrop. The brown backdrop flattens highlights by comparison. This is a consistent phenomenon. But I now believe it is something other than sensor reflection, but more a form of reflection spill. I've diagramed this studio layout below.



I think more likely now, instead of sensor reflection, this very subtle hue shift is due to the white wash studio walls reflecting the background color back onto the model. Not a huge deal, but black flags would more than likely address slight the color shift.











Here again, close up jaw line from above photo... this shift is clothing color reflection on the ridges of his jaw line. But again still, the base skin tones have a very very slight shift with the darker skin tone background. If not sensor reflection, the studio white wall reflections of the background... I think?







Shot above... Am I wrong to see a little more yellow skin mid-tones on the brown background shot?





I don't see any shift in the comparison above.





Shot above is wild to me... seeming like different skin tones but revealing practically the same. And still, the closeup looks a bit cool tone at first glance. I have to hold my hand over the full shots and then the closeups look identical to me.







Close up nose on the left is white background. Right nose is brown background. Am I seeing a difference again in the highlights... or not..? I think I am, but I'm ready to go back to my padded cell and turn off the lights for a while.

Thanks for your tip Magnar. Really got me to thinking about it in a different way.

Thanks a lot for your detailed information and insight. It is amazing that you can pull out such a valuable knowledge from a one-liner. It is funny that I often see him spamming replies insisting on his 'theories' about colors, but when people actually show proofs he pretends as if nothing happened.

Back to the topic.

I think this issue of background color affecting skin tone might not be a direct result from sensor reflection, but maybe due to the fact that light will bounce between objects in an environment and cast subtle influence on each other. I reviewed some of the environmental portraits I took in which the shadow area of skin had strong green color-cast. I found in these pictures, my subjects often stood in a grass field and their faces tilted downward. So maybe sunlight hit the grass, bounced back and hit the subject again, thus create green cast on the skin?

 

[No account anymore]

The unseen ghost... Sensor reflection.

Do not underestimate how much the background colors will enter into camera, bounce off sensor, bounce back into sensor, and tint the color of your models face. The brighter the background, the more intensive the sensor reflection will be.

This is not sensor reflection, it is mainly something going on in your brain, called simultaneous contrast.

This lengthy reply will prove your point ten fold, with various camera lens combos, thank you for your corrective direction, and highlight a couple of other issues that I don't believe can be completely attributed to simultaneous contrast phenomenon.

First, to your point...

All photos same 5600K LED Continuous (no flash). Sometimes different modifiers. Refer to exif for various camera/lens combos used. All setups camera set for Daylight. All ACR set for As Shot. No color corrections.





Close up of her jaw line reveals reflections from her clothing color.







Below detail close up reveals subtle differences. Highlights are slightly more contrasty under the white backdrop. The brown backdrop flattens highlights by comparison. This is a consistent phenomenon. But I now believe it is something other than sensor reflection, but more a form of reflection spill. I've diagramed this studio layout below.



I think more likely now, instead of sensor reflection, this very subtle hue shift is due to the white wash studio walls reflecting the background color back onto the model. Not a huge deal, but black flags would more than likely address slight the color shift.











Here again, close up jaw line from above photo... this shift is clothing color reflection on the ridges of his jaw line. But again still, the base skin tones have a very very slight shift with the darker skin tone background. If not sensor reflection, the studio white wall reflections of the background... I think?







Shot above... Am I wrong to see a little more yellow skin mid-tones on the brown background shot?





I don't see any shift in the comparison above.





Shot above is wild to me... seeming like different skin tones but revealing practically the same. And still, the closeup looks a bit cool tone at first glance. I have to hold my hand over the full shots and then the closeups look identical to me.







Close up nose on the left is white background. Right nose is brown background. Am I seeing a difference again in the highlights... or not..? I think I am, but I'm ready to go back to my padded cell and turn off the lights for a while.

Thanks for your tip Magnar. Really got me to thinking about it in a different way.

Thanks a lot for your detailed information and insight. It is amazing that you can pull out such a valuable knowledge from a one-liner. It is funny that I often see him spamming replies insisting on his 'theories' about colors, but when people actually show proofs he pretends as if nothing happened.

Me you are referring to?

Back to the topic.

I think this issue of background color affecting skin tone might not be a direct result from sensor reflection, but maybe due to the fact that light will bounce between objects in an environment and cast subtle influence on each other. I reviewed some of the environmental portraits I took in which the shadow area of skin had strong green color-cast. I found in these pictures, my subjects often stood in a grass field and their faces tilted downward. So maybe sunlight hit the grass, bounced back and hit the subject again, thus create green cast on the skin?

Reflextions from the environment, and for the final result, also simultaneous contrast. Both plays a part. No guessing needed. Simple physics and basic perception theory.

Curiosity and examination will answer questions. The ignorant will rejct the answers.

 

[Clyde Thomas]

I think this issue of background color affecting skin tone might not be a direct result from sensor reflection, but maybe due to the fact that light will bounce between objects in an environment and cast subtle influence on each other. I reviewed some of the environmental portraits I took in which the shadow area of skin had strong green color-cast. I found in these pictures, my subjects often stood in a grass field and their faces tilted downward. So maybe sunlight hit the grass, bounced back and hit the subject again, thus create green cast on the skin?

Yes pretty much the point I was trying to make... for the most part. Highlighting the example below however, there may be some degree of sensor reflection combined with color cast from his shirt. Below we notice the edge of his chin being mostly red because of the color cast from his shirt.



But that does not explain the overall red color cast to his face by comparison to the blue shirt. They are obviously different. And if it's not a light degree of sensor reflection, then I don't know what else it could be. There is no way the red shirt is tinting his cheeks.

So while I do agree that the simultaneous contrast phenomenon that Magnar pointed out is clearly demonstrated by most of my samples. It does not fully explain the color shift above, or below, where the face is so obviously tinted towards the same color as the shirt the model is wearing. Fact is that sensor reflection is a phenomenon. We see it with double flaring all the time, and one of the main selling points of early digital camera lens manufacturing was to highlight their supposedly superior coatings to reduce the sensor reflections of older film days vintage lenses. The Minolta macro lenses were particularly prone to sensor reflection.





--
Here to help. Here to learn.

http://photoclydethomas.com/

 

[Entropy512]

I think this issue of background color affecting skin tone might not be a direct result from sensor reflection, but maybe due to the fact that light will bounce between objects in an environment and cast subtle influence on each other. I reviewed some of the environmental portraits I took in which the shadow area of skin had strong green color-cast. I found in these pictures, my subjects often stood in a grass field and their faces tilted downward. So maybe sunlight hit the grass, bounced back and hit the subject again, thus create green cast on the skin?

This phenomenon is also the bane of existence of anyone who shoots in the woods during the spring/summer - EVERYTHING gets tinted green!

 

[DoctorKajita]

1. DavidB2 wrote:

You can also try color profiles sold by third parties that improve the color rendering. Huelight / color fidelity is popular, and its portrait profile for the A7r3 that I have is pretty good. Also, check out https://cobalt-image.com/ for well done but somewhat expensive color profiles.

Thank you David

There’s a big thread on Cobalt on FM: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1702704

For portraits, their Cobalt Standard profile has been a big help in getting me correct skin tones. You still need to tweak but it gives you a much better starting point.

 

[KE_DP]

Great thread with lots of good info - moral of the story - stop blaming the camera!

 

[Paul B - UK]

Great thread with lots of good info - moral of the story - stop blaming the camera!

 

[No account anymore]

Great thread with lots of good info - moral of the story - stop blaming the camera!

You say that but I have 3 cameras. A Sony, Nikon & a Canon. I hardly ever have problems of skin tones being too orangey with the Nikon or the Canon, or have no problems correcting it in post with white balance, but often have the problem with the Sony (& a previous Sony model). I've tried switching editors and the same result.

Auto exposure and JPG? Or default raw converter settings? Same problem no matter light quality? And different raw converters give the same result with default settings? Also with previous sony cameras that handles colour differently from the newer models? Not likely. So please tell how you compare. Some photos as examples from your cameras would be great.

 

[Paul B - UK]

Great thread with lots of good info - moral of the story - stop blaming the camera!

You say that but I have 3 cameras. A Sony, Nikon & a Canon. I hardly ever have problems of skin tones being too orangey with the Nikon or the Canon, or have no problems correcting it in post with white balance, but often have the problem with the Sony (& a previous Sony model). I've tried switching editors and the same result.

Auto exposure and JPG? Or default raw converter settings? Same problem no matter light quality? And different raw converters give the same result with default settings? Also with previous sony cameras that handles colour differently from the newer models? Not likely. So please tell how you compare. Some photos as examples from your cameras would be great.

I always shoot Raw. I have Lightroom, DxO & C1 for Sony. I have a7iii & a6400 & a6000 raw files. Unless in going mad, I've noticed quite often orangey over-colouring in the skin tones and sometimes a greenish tint too. We all recognise patterns when they occur and it occurs much more often in the Sony files. When the problem does occur in the Nikon or Canon files its a simple white balance correction. In the Sony's a lot more complicated editing is needed, i.e HSL, or colour curves etc

 

[No account anymore]

Great thread with lots of good info - moral of the story - stop blaming the camera!

You say that but I have 3 cameras. A Sony, Nikon & a Canon. I hardly ever have problems of skin tones being too orangey with the Nikon or the Canon, or have no problems correcting it in post with white balance, but often have the problem with the Sony (& a previous Sony model). I've tried switching editors and the same result.

Auto exposure and JPG? Or default raw converter settings? Same problem no matter light quality? And different raw converters give the same result with default settings? Also with previous sony cameras that handles colour differently from the newer models? Not likely. So please tell how you compare. Some photos as examples from your cameras would be great.

I always shoot Raw. I have Lightroom, DxO & C1 for Sony. I have a7iii & a6400 & a6000 raw files. Unless in going mad, I've noticed quite often orangey over-colouring in the skin tones and sometimes a greenish tint too. We all recognise patterns when they occur and it occurs much more often in the Sony files. When the problem does occur in the Nikon or Canon files its a simple white balance correction. In the Sony's a lot more complicated editing is needed, i.e HSL, or colour curves etc.

Raw is about profiles, and I find it strange if the same subject and same exposure looks similar with all your raw converters, unless you have made profiles for different light qualities that matches across the raw converters.

Any samples?

 

[Paul B - UK]

Great thread with lots of good info - moral of the story - stop blaming the camera!

You say that but I have 3 cameras. A Sony, Nikon & a Canon. I hardly ever have problems of skin tones being too orangey with the Nikon or the Canon, or have no problems correcting it in post with white balance, but often have the problem with the Sony (& a previous Sony model). I've tried switching editors and the same result.

Auto exposure and JPG? Or default raw converter settings? Same problem no matter light quality? And different raw converters give the same result with default settings? Also with previous sony cameras that handles colour differently from the newer models? Not likely. So please tell how you compare. Some photos as examples from your cameras would be great.

I always shoot Raw. I have Lightroom, DxO & C1 for Sony. I have a7iii & a6400 & a6000 raw files. Unless in going mad, I've noticed quite often orangey over-colouring in the skin tones and sometimes a greenish tint too. We all recognise patterns when they occur and it occurs much more often in the Sony files. When the problem does occur in the Nikon or Canon files its a simple white balance correction. In the Sony's a lot more complicated editing is needed, i.e HSL, or colour curves etc.

Raw is about profiles, and I find it strange if the same subject and same exposure looks similar with all your raw converters, unless you have made profiles for different light qualities that matches across the raw converters.

Any samples?

Yet, I've tried editing the same file/s in different raw editors (Lightroom, DxO, C1) to see if I can get better results & get roughly the same results. I believe that the Sony files tend to lean a bit towards being orangey & sometimes a bit greenish too. I don't seem to get the same problem with my Canon or Nikon files (that simple white balance can't correct for)

 

[papajohnny]

Great thread with lots of good info - moral of the story - stop blaming the camera!

You say that but I have 3 cameras. A Sony, Nikon & a Canon. I hardly ever have problems of skin tones being too orangey with the Nikon or the Canon, or have no problems correcting it in post with white balance, but often have the problem with the Sony (& a previous Sony model). I've tried switching editors and the same result.

Auto exposure and JPG? Or default raw converter settings? Same problem no matter light quality? And different raw converters give the same result with default settings? Also with previous sony cameras that handles colour differently from the newer models? Not likely. So please tell how you compare. Some photos as examples from your cameras would be great.

I always shoot Raw. I have Lightroom, DxO & C1 for Sony. I have a7iii & a6400 & a6000 raw files. Unless in going mad, I've noticed quite often orangey over-colouring in the skin tones and sometimes a greenish tint too. We all recognise patterns when they occur and it occurs much more often in the Sony files. When the problem does occur in the Nikon or Canon files its a simple white balance correction. In the Sony's a lot more complicated editing is needed, i.e HSL, or colour curves etc

I can concur with that. I even made custom DNG profiles with x-rite and sometimes they work much better than LR ones, but they also fail in other light/subject conditions. I think the color shifts even depend on exposure level, it seems there is more orange/green hues as you lower the exposure. I didn't actually do anything I would call scientific about researching this issue, so it's just a hunch. Bottom line, I wasn't able to create any profile that would become a good starting point for editing.

I find Luminar is more suited for Sony files than LR as it allows more dramatic color surgery.

 

[Paul B - UK]

Great thread with lots of good info - moral of the story - stop blaming the camera!

You say that but I have 3 cameras. A Sony, Nikon & a Canon. I hardly ever have problems of skin tones being too orangey with the Nikon or the Canon, or have no problems correcting it in post with white balance, but often have the problem with the Sony (& a previous Sony model). I've tried switching editors and the same result.

Auto exposure and JPG? Or default raw converter settings? Same problem no matter light quality? And different raw converters give the same result with default settings? Also with previous sony cameras that handles colour differently from the newer models? Not likely. So please tell how you compare. Some photos as examples from your cameras would be great.

I always shoot Raw. I have Lightroom, DxO & C1 for Sony. I have a7iii & a6400 & a6000 raw files. Unless in going mad, I've noticed quite often orangey over-colouring in the skin tones and sometimes a greenish tint too. We all recognise patterns when they occur and it occurs much more often in the Sony files. When the problem does occur in the Nikon or Canon files its a simple white balance correction. In the Sony's a lot more complicated editing is needed, i.e HSL, or colour curves etc

I can concur with that. I even made custom DNG profiles with x-rite and sometimes they work much better than LR ones, but they also fail in other light/subject conditions. I think the color shifts even depend on exposure level, it seems there is more orange/green hues as you lower the exposure. I didn't actually do anything I would call scientific about researching this issue, so it's just a hunch. Bottom line, I wasn't able to create any profile that would become a good starting point for editing.

I find Luminar is more suited for Sony files than LR as it allows more dramatic color surgery.

 

[mkochano]

All those things mentioned can have their contribution, but they are not the decisive factor. How do I know that? In addition to Sony A7iii I use all my FE lenses on TZE adapter with Nikon Z6. And I have very little trouble adjusting Nikon colors, while I have dozens of LR presets for Sony. You can get a good result with Sony, but it often requires more efforts.

Would you mind sharing some examples?

 

[No account anymore]

Great thread with lots of good info - moral of the story - stop blaming the camera!

You say that but I have 3 cameras. A Sony, Nikon & a Canon. I hardly ever have problems of skin tones being too orangey with the Nikon or the Canon, or have no problems correcting it in post with white balance, but often have the problem with the Sony (& a previous Sony model). I've tried switching editors and the same result.

Auto exposure and JPG? Or default raw converter settings? Same problem no matter light quality? And different raw converters give the same result with default settings? Also with previous sony cameras that handles colour differently from the newer models? Not likely. So please tell how you compare. Some photos as examples from your cameras would be great.

I always shoot Raw. I have Lightroom, DxO & C1 for Sony. I have a7iii & a6400 & a6000 raw files. Unless in going mad, I've noticed quite often orangey over-colouring in the skin tones and sometimes a greenish tint too. We all recognise patterns when they occur and it occurs much more often in the Sony files. When the problem does occur in the Nikon or Canon files its a simple white balance correction. In the Sony's a lot more complicated editing is needed, i.e HSL, or colour curves etc.

Raw is about profiles, and I find it strange if the same subject and same exposure looks similar with all your raw converters, unless you have made profiles for different light qualities that matches across the raw converters.

Any samples?

Yet, I've tried editing the same file/s in different raw editors (Lightroom, DxO, C1) to see if I can get better results & get roughly the same results. I believe that the Sony files tend to lean a bit towards being orangey & sometimes a bit greenish too. I don't seem to get the same problem with my Canon or Nikon files (that simple white balance can't correct for)

Then it must be something with your profiles, since raw is mainly about raw converter profiles. Strange if they all tend to show the same color shift.