lightweight camera for close-ups & vid

[ranger13]

For work I take close-up shots of chromed objects (4x3") to highlight flaws. Boss open to getting new camera, budget unknown. (Using Coolpix S2800: anything's going to be an improvement.) He mentioned EOS but is even less up-to-date than I with market changes in last 5yrs. For now I'm assuming $500-600, my guess is he'd be flexible if necessary. (If I wind up buying for myself, budget 300-400 max.)

He wants a camera that has
-- 4K video for short vids about ht use our products
-- sound doesn't need to be studio quality, videos mainly silent. (Some might have person discussing various features, no music.)

But my job is the primary use for the camera. So I want to put in a bid for a tool that meets my needs. Hopefully I can find something that ticks most boxes for both, figure out if I'm on the right track.

First I thought macro lens was what I needed but it could make everything look like a moonscape. Good close-up capability might be better. I looked into mirrorless but now wonder if an APS-C with a bigger sensor isn't a better route.

I'm fine with a pocket-camera. I don't want a big heavy complicated thing with a steep learning curve, 20 nested menus and a 400-page manual. My job is to get 'er done, not make art. I like the Coolpix, I just wish it was... better.

But picking models still feels pretty random so am trying to zero in on features. Frex ppl speak well of the Lumix line, which seems good for my skill-set & price-range. But when I compared ZS100 & RX100 I realized: duh, ZS100 specialty was zoom. I kinda need the opposite.

Those things in mind, I'd prefer:

-- physically light (Coolpix 4.3oz) so I can shoot with one hand if necessary (clamps take too long)

-- handles indirect indoor 'low' light (overhead florescent)

-- good IS

-- good active AF

-- 1" sensor

-- good default lens (is that a "kit" lens??) for close-ups (1-2' avg distance from object)

Not-needed/low priority:

* no in-camera editing

* don't want extra product software

(Most cameras must let you download directly to hard drive, right? Also I assume RAW = uncompressed. High-quality JPG for web-pix that will get optimized by other platforms anyway is good enough.)

* Don't know much about viewfinders, long as I can see whether object's in focus that's fine. (I cut my teeth on a loaned prewar Leica when I was young, everything since then has been freaking tragic lol.)

* Anything with a flip-up screen or parts that are easy to break is a hard pass, although boss might feel differently. If necessary for video okay, but would be better if it was detachable (if possible). I don't want that stuff in my way or weighing extra.

* not into touch screen controls. Knobs or buttons are fine tyvm

* Camera plugged into computer when not in use so battery-life shouldn't be an issue: that said, it should be able to take several hundred pix over 8 hours without pitching a fit.

Definitely not needed:

action shots/high-speed
long distance
amazing color fidelity

I've had good experiences with Canon so looking at their line (maybe M6 if budget is flexible); maybe Nikon or Panasonic. Adding lenses is something the boss seems to want as an option, though ISTM any decent-quality camera should allow that. (Given price of lenses, not sure that makes sense at lower end of market when camera could age off in a few years, but that's not my call.)

Many thanks indeed!!

 

[alcelc]

On budget-wise, easy to use (on full auto shooting modes), good video etc, I would suggest to take a look at the Panasonic GX85 twin lens kit set.

As per B&H it is still selling at US$500 for two kit lenses, a pancake 24-36mm (eq AoV to FF) and 90-300mm zoom lenses which should be quite sufficient for general shooting.

The low cost because it is not the latest model. If you don't mind a more sizable body for improved ergonomic (also has external mic port etc), might consider its bigger brother G85. Both G85 and GX85 are belonging to the last generation of M43 system using 16Mp sensor. Theoretically @300ppi it could support 15"x 11.5" print without issue.

There are the latest 20Mp generation of M43 models, the GX9 (successor to GX85) and G95 (successor to G85). On feature-wise the difference is not very significant IMHO.

For a more entry class model (limit on length of 4K recording), might consider GX850 (a.k.a. GF9) or the latest GF10. They are smaller in size, cheaper, simpler to use (designed for P&S or beginner in mind).

For work I take close-up shots of chromed objects (4x3") to highlight flaws. Boss open to getting new camera, budget unknown. (Using Coolpix S2800: anything's going to be an improvement.) He mentioned EOS but is even less up-to-date than I with market changes in last 5yrs. For now I'm assuming $500-600, my guess is he'd be flexible if necessary. (If I wind up buying for myself, budget 300-400 max.)

He wants a camera that has
-- 4K video for short vids about ht use our products

4K ready upto 29 min 59 sec limit, but will restart automatically for a new footage. No overheating issue.

-- sound doesn't need to be studio quality, videos mainly silent. (Some might have person discussing various features, no music.)

GX85/GX9 uses built in mic or external recorder (if looking for better audio) whereas G85/G95 has a mic port for an external mic.

But my job is the primary use for the camera. So I want to put in a bid for a tool that meets my needs. Hopefully I can find something that ticks most boxes for both, figure out if I'm on the right track.

First I thought macro lens was what I needed but it could make everything look like a moonscape. Good close-up capability might be better. I looked into mirrorless but now wonder if an APS-C with a bigger sensor isn't a better route.

Unlike fixed lens compact, any interchangeable lens system camera (ILC) could mount any lens (same system) on it for different job. If you are looking for real macro shooting (1:1 or larger), a proper macro lens is the best solution.

Under M43 system, there are an Olympus 60mm f/2.8, a Panasonic Leica 45mm f/2.8, Panasonic 30mm f/2.8 and Olympus 30mm f/3.5 specialized for macro shooting.

As macro shooting is not my key interest, I put on a cheapy AF extension tube sets for macro shooting. It works, but not the most convenience. Some members also put on macro lens adapter (diopter filter lens).

If you are just talking about close up shooting, might make use of the minimum shooting distance of individual lenses and their magnification for the job. e.g. the kit lens of GX85, the 24-64 (physical focal length is 12-32) has a min shooting distance of <9 inch at a magnification of 0.13x...

I'm fine with a pocket-camera. I don't want a big heavy complicated thing with a steep learning curve, 20 nested menus and a 400-page manual. My job is to get 'er done, not make art.

Might set it to full auto mode (e.g. iA+ mode) which can do a reasonable acceptable job: camera decides everything for you. It will even apply any pre-set scenery mode (e.g. Handheld Night shot etc) whenever the camera thinks fit.

If you will move on, might switch to use those semi-auto shooting modes (Aperture or Shutter Priority etc) to have more control over the camera. The responsive real time Live View mode could be very helpful and make the shooting fun.

I like the Coolpix, I just wish it was... better.

But picking models still feels pretty random so am trying to zero in on features. Frex ppl speak well of the Lumix line, which seems good for my skill-set & price-range. But when I compared ZS100 & RX100 I realized: duh, ZS100 specialty was zoom. I kinda need the opposite.

Those things in mind, I'd prefer:

physically light (Coolpix 4.3oz) so I can shoot with one hand if necessary (clamps take too long)

-- handles indirect indoor 'low' light (overhead florescent)

Low Light AF of Panasonic cameras should currently be among the best of the industry. Even its entry class GF models could do as well as some pro class DSLR, down to dark as -4ev is a norm, and in Lab test GX85 was even exceeded the measuring power of the tester (Imaging Resources)...

However, due to the 2 stops disadvantage on noise performance vs Full Frame (1 stop vs APSC. Of course the bigger sensor of M43 is better than 1" and smaller size sensors), it might be more restrictive than FF or APSC system on IQ under Low Light shooting.

-- good IS

GX85 uses a 5-axis floating sensor for quite effective IBIS (supports 4K video). On using compatible lenses (most latest OIS Panasonic lenses) it supports DUAL IS (a combination of IBIS and Lens OIS). G85 uses DUAL IS-2, around 1 stop more effective IS than DUAL IS of GX85.

Usually 4-5 stops effective stabilization (depending on the overall ergonomic of the setup) is expected on DUAL IS.

-- good active AF

On Single AF shot, AF of Panasonic cameras are lightening fast.

Due to the stubbornness on using CDAF plus DFD (a software approach), the AF tracking ability of Panasonic is not as effective as PDAF of DSLR or OSPDAF of other mirrorless brands (Nikon Z, Canon R, Sony and even some Olympus M43 models).

Continuous AF is essential to video. Although AF of Panasonic is not the best, but if not zoom or pan crazy frequent/fast, it can do it IMHO. A demonstration on the video AF of various Panasonic cameras for your appraisal: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60634476

-- 1" sensor

-- good default lens (is that a "kit" lens??) for close-ups (1-2' avg distance from object)

See above.

Not-needed/low priority:

* no in-camera editing

GX85 only has simple in-camera RAW conversion.

* don't want extra product software

If you shoot SOOC jpg and can nail the exposure on the setting, not much post processing would be needed.

I am a SOOC jpg shooter, generally around 60% of the direct output are usable on as is basis, whereas another 20% are usable after minor PP touching. I had to deal with 6~7K photos from any usual 2 weeks trip...

(Most cameras must let you download directly to hard drive, right?

I prefer the faster operation of card reader and use the file manager (I use Windows explorer) of my computer/Android phone (File Manager).

Also I assume RAW = uncompressed. High-quality JPG for web-pix that will get optimized by other platforms anyway is good enough.)

RAW is a pile of original sensor data, might not be read by every image viewer software, and usually it is not supported by most website (e.g. DPR does not accept RAW posting) or printing.

Generally we have to convert the RAW into some more generally acceptable format. e.g. JPG.

BTW, in order to get the best from a RAW we have to convert it with our skill, put in the time and use a compatible RAW converter if using default auto conversion. Otherwise, we might end up with an uncorrected distorted image, with abbreviation, noise, might be the wrong color (White Balance), soft ...

JPG is usually described as not the best because of the limited processing power of the camera (relative to a sophistic RAW converter on a powerful computer) and after conversion, certain original sensor data will be stripped. The destructive nature of jpg format is also less tolerable for further process processing.

If I don't have any of the following: time, the skill nor a compatible RAW converter, very often SOOC jpg is my better option.

* Don't know much about viewfinders,

On Live View based shooting of GX85 (true for all mirrorless and certain DSLR), basically the content displayed in viewfinder (electronic viewfinder or EVF) is nearly the same as on LCD. If you will use a viewfinder correctly, can improve the stability on hand hold shooting, easier to see under bright light, and can concentrate on the shooting. But not as useful when shooting on a tripod.

long as I can see whether object's in focus that's fine. (I cut my teeth on a loaned prewar Leica when I was young, everything since then has been freaking tragic lol.)

AF of today is very good, specially the CDAF or OSPDAF of mirrorless which basically can keep front/back focusing to none~minimal. Usually when half hit the shutter/or use Back Focus Button, heard the beep sound and see the focus box locked, 99% of time it would be in good focus.

* Anything with a flip-up screen or parts that are easy to break is a hard pass, although boss might feel differently.

You can keep the LCD in its original position, or folded it backward for Fully articulated Screen.

I might find a moveable LCD (tilt or FAS) very useful for waist ~ ground level, odd angle shooting etc...

If necessary for video okay, but would be better if it was detachable (if possible).

None AFAIK at the present moment. There are add-on evf, no add-on LCD (external monitor excluded).

I don't want that stuff in my way or weighing extra.

* not into touch screen controls. Knobs or buttons are fine tyvm

If you shoot on a tripod, says product photo, you might find Touch AF (tap on the LCD to select where exactly to focus) is a God sent grift.

More buttons would mean less Menu Diving. However, due to the limited spaces of the camera body, there are limited spaces for hard buttons. Touch LCD could be very helpful.

e.g. the GX85 has 9 assignable fn keys (4 are hard buttons and 5 are soft buttons operated by Touch LCD). Additionally there are a Q.Menu which can take 15 features which is also operated by Touch LCD. When certain feature been activated, there would be ad hoc soft menu/keys available from time to time automatically.

Although I would not use every fn keys on day to day shooting, by these 4 hard keys and 20 soft keys, basically I have more than enough keys to hold all major features for instant setup instead of dig deep into the Menu.

* Camera plugged into computer when not in use so battery-life shouldn't be an issue: that said, it should be able to take several hundred pix over 8 hours without pitching a fit.

As you might know, battery life is the Achilles heel of mirrorless due to their Live View based shooting. Unlike the analog operation of DSLR (under non Live View mode), it is a mini computer running on full stream all the time.

The battery life of GX85 is around 3~3.5hrs under a sound energy saving policy. Within that period of time I had taken 1K+ shots instead of the CIPA rating of 300 shots. Shooting 4K etc would need more power.

GX85 can charge the battery through in-camera USB port, but the camera must be switch off.

For longer continuous battery supply, usually a dummy battery, a voltage step up case and a usual 5V 2A output USB external power bank would be used. e.g. https://www.amazon.com/DMW-DCC11-Co...XSBDQGT4JFD&psc=1&refRID=Q70P5DSK7XSBDQGT4JFD.

Definitely not needed:

action shots/high-speed

All latest 4K ready Panasonic camera supports 4K Photo (some 6K), which can shoot at 30fps for 8Mp jpg output.

long distance

Depending on the lens. The above suggested US$500 kit set can reach 300mm eq focal length of FF. Under M43 system, there are lenses from fisheye, ultra wide 14mm (eq to FF) upto telephoto of 1200mm...

amazing color fidelity

There are various pre-set profile to choose from, and each can be further adjusted to meet with your requirement.

I am happy with the Vivid mode for its pleasant SOOC output.

I've had good experiences with Canon so looking at their line (maybe M6 if budget is flexible); maybe Nikon or Panasonic. Adding lenses is something the boss seems to want as an option, though ISTM any decent-quality camera should allow that. (Given price of lenses, not sure that makes sense at lower end of market when camera could age off in a few years, but that's not my call.)

Many thanks indeed!!

:

--
Albert
** Please feel free to download the original image I posted here and edit it as you like **

 

[ranger13]

First, thanks for the wonderfully thorough response, I really appreciate the time you took to help me out here!! I have made a list of your suggestions & will check out everything.

4K ready upto 29 min 59 sec limit, but will restart automatically for a new footage. No overheating issue.

GX85/GX9 uses built in mic or external recorder (if looking for better audio) whereas G85/G95 has a mic port for an external mic.

Both sound fine for our needs.

First I thought macro lens was what I needed but it could make everything look like a moonscape. Good close-up capability might be better. I looked into mirrorless but now wonder if an APS-C with a bigger sensor isn't a better route.

As macro shooting is not my key interest, I put on a cheapy AF extension tube sets for macro shooting. It works, but not the most convenience. Some members also put on macro lens adapter (diopter filter lens).

Thank you, yes I've read some articles about extension tubes but think that probably macro will be *too* close. Also the amount of time to set something like that up is a drawback, I'm on the clock at an hourly rate lol.

As discussed in a different thread (not trying to ask again, just clarifying), what I need is a camera capable of photographing scratches (some not much wider than a hair), dents, and very small tool marks on an area about 3" x 1/2". The issue is it's metal & highly reflective. A light tent deadens everything and the flaws don't pop.

Anyway even though I have okay lighting options now, I think I can do better with my shots. (Well: one can always do better.) The limited range of the Coolpix and its age feel like they're hobbling me at this point. But macro is probably a step too far. I don't need to get an insect's eyeballs: I just want a fairly crisp photo of fine, hairline scratches and the like.

If you are just talking about close up shooting, might make use of the minimum shooting distance of individual lenses and their magnification for the job. e.g. the kit lens of GX85, the 24-64 (physical focal length is 12-32) has a min shooting distance of <9 inch at a magnification of 0.13x...

Yes that is more what I think I'm looking for.

Might set it to full auto mode (e.g. iA+ mode) which can do a reasonable acceptable job: camera decides everything for you. It will even apply any pre-set scenery mode (e.g. Handheld Night shot etc) whenever the camera thinks fit.

That, too, sounds promising.

The responsive real time Live View mode could be very helpful and make the shooting fun.

I'm not familiar with that, will look into it.

However, due to the 2 stops disadvantage on noise performance vs Full Frame (1 stop vs APSC. Of course the bigger sensor of M43 is better than 1" and smaller size sensors), it might be more restrictive than FF or APSC system on IQ under Low Light shooting.

I guess it depends what qualifies as "low light". I won't need this for nighttime shooting, or even wholly inadequate light: just indoors, indirect.

Continuous AF is essential to video. Although AF of Panasonic is not the best, but if not zoom or pan crazy frequent/fast, it can do it IMHO. A demonstration on the video AF of various Panasonic cameras for your appraisal:

Excellent! thank you, that's the kind of stuff i need to get up to speed on.

GX85 only has simple in-camera RAW conversion.

Hmm. That sounds like it could be time-consuming and a hassle.

I prefer the faster operation of card reader and use the file manager (I use Windows explorer) of my computer/Android phone (File Manager).

Useful suggestion. I had one for a very old point-and-shoot at home & forgot about it at work, since the Coolpix is fast & I'm not working with volume: 15-25 shots per item avg, pick the best 6-8, edit on computer and move on.

Generally we have to convert the RAW into some more generally acceptable format. e.g. JPG.

Yep, and this is why I didn't want to mess around with RAW. I suppose for a better camera it's inevitable?

If I don't have any of the following: time, the skill nor a compatible RAW converter, very often SOOC jpg is my better option.

So long as I can still do that, I very likely will. Keeping it simple works for me.

AF of today is very good, specially the CDAF or OSPDAF of mirrorless which basically can keep front/back focusing to none~minimal. Usually when half hit the shutter/or use Back Focus Button, heard the beep sound and see the focus box locked, 99% of time it would be in good focus.

Excellent! That's very encouraging.

If you shoot on a tripod, says product photo, you might find Touch AF (tap on the LCD to select where exactly to focus) is a God sent grift.

lol very tactful, thank you!! Okay I'll ask boss if I can play around with the tripod, I know we have one somewhere.

Although I would not use every fn keys on day to day shooting, by these 4 hard keys and 20 soft keys, basically I have more than enough keys to hold all major features for instant setup instead of dig deep into the Menu.

That is a very helpful thing to know as well. I'm really grateful for all this information, it's just what I needed! Thank you again!!

I now have a few models to compare, and may try cross-comparisons with some other brands like the Canon M6 I mentioned before, or maybe some of the Lumix models if I can figure out which model to narrow things down to. But cross-comparisons on paper only get me so far, especially since my experience is so limited, so if anyone has experience with those brands, I'd be interested to hear whether they think they might fit my needs. Cheers

 

[ranger13]

On budget-wise, easy to use (on full auto shooting modes), good video etc, I would suggest to take a look at the Panasonic GX85 twin lens kit set.

As per B&H it is still selling at US$500 for two kit lenses, a pancake 24-36mm (eq AoV to FF) and 90-300mm zoom lenses which should be quite sufficient for general shooting.

I looked but we don't need telephoto lenses, I wouldn't expect they'd let ppl swap out one lens for another...

This is the main this I wanted to ask about, though:

For a more entry class model (limit on length of 4K recording), might consider GX850 (a.k.a. GF9) or the latest GF10. They are smaller in size, cheaper, simpler to use (designed for P&S or beginner in mind).

Is there some place you folks are finding these items for sale? the GX850 doesn't seem to be available at Amazon, B&H, K&H, or Adorama. Beyond that, I couldn't go since I'm unfamiliar. It seems that last year's models are shoveled out faster than cars... maybe to secondary markets, idk.

Is there somewhere else I could be looking? Thank you

 

[alcelc]

On budget-wise, easy to use (on full auto shooting modes), good video etc, I would suggest to take a look at the Panasonic GX85 twin lens kit set.

As per B&H it is still selling at US$500 for two kit lenses, a pancake 24-36mm (eq AoV to FF) and 90-300mm zoom lenses which should be quite sufficient for general shooting.

I looked but we don't need telephoto lenses, I wouldn't expect they'd let ppl swap out one lens for another...

I even used my 45-200 (eq AoV of 90-400mm of FF) zoom lens to take some interesting close up image...




If you don't need that telephoto lens, might sell it. I suppose in gray market, a de-kit 45-150 f/4-5.6 should be around US$150...

This is the main this I wanted to ask about, though:

For a more entry class model (limit on length of 4K recording), might consider GX850 (a.k.a. GF9) or the latest GF10. They are smaller in size, cheaper, simpler to use (designed for P&S or beginner in mind).

Is there some place you folks are finding these items for sale? the GX850 doesn't seem to be available at Amazon, B&H, K&H, or Adorama. Beyond that, I couldn't go since I'm unfamiliar. It seems that last year's models are shoveled out faster than cars... maybe to secondary markets, idk.

Is there somewhere else I could be looking? Thank you

Where are you?

GF10 has not been launched in USA IIRC. It is mostly for the Asian market and might be for the ANZ and Europe as well ...

As per Panasonic USA, GX850 (i.e., the GF9) is listed at US$550 for a single lens kit set (GX850 & 12-32 f/3.5-5.6).

https://shop.panasonic.com/cameras-...interchangeable-lens-ilc-cameras?srule=newest

It seems that GF10 is available on eBay (e.g. https://www.ebay.com/c/18017357662 ).



TBH, if I am you, I might consider the higher end model GX85 than the entry class GF9 or GF10, not to mention the savings.

--
Albert
** Please feel free to download the original image I posted here and edit it as you like **

 

[ranger13]

I even used my 45-200 (eq AoV of 90-400mm of FF) zoom lens to take some interesting close up image...




If you don't need that telephoto lens, might sell it. I suppose in gray market, a de-kit 45-150 f/4-5.6 should be around US$150...

This is the main this I wanted to ask about, though:

For a more entry class model (limit on length of 4K recording), might consider GX850 (a.k.a. GF9) or the latest GF10. They are smaller in size, cheaper, simpler to use (designed for P&S or beginner in mind).

Is there some place you folks are finding these items for sale? the GX850 doesn't seem to be available at Amazon, B&H, K&H, or Adorama. Beyond that, I couldn't go since I'm unfamiliar. It seems that last year's models are shoveled out faster than cars... maybe to secondary markets, idk.

Is there somewhere else I could be looking? Thank you

Where are you?

TBH, if I am you, I might consider the higher end model GX85 than the entry class GF9 or GF10, not to mention the savings.

Thanks, cool photo... I did not know one could do that. Maybe we should keep the telephoto after all!!

We are in upstate NY, nowhere near the city. Mainly we buy online from B&H.

What advantage for our purposes would GX85 offer over GX850? Thx again!

 

[alcelc]

I don't own GX850. You might wish to ask on M43 forum where this models is belonging to and could have better answer from its owners.

Upon my understanding, and experience on its predecessor GF3 ( was my compact back up), it has very few physical buttons on setting, more for point and shoot, more limited on features (like 4K video, its bigger brothers are limited to 29 min 59 sec per session recording time but GFs are subject to 5 min), IBIS vs no IBIS, very limited m-shutter and slow flash synchronized speed (likely 1/50"?)...

If GX85 had not been used to fight for market share from Olympus, GFs usually are cheaper, smaller for beginners whereas GXs (exclude GX850, a very confusing model name!) Is a Jack of all trades, more for serious and experienced users. For those who need more, e.g. need weather resistance, microphone etc then G is it.

Wishing the above could help.

--
Albert
** Please feel free to download the original image I posted here and edit it as you like **