Yongnuo multiple flash sync problem

[eyeb]

Hi,

I've had a good search around the forums and lots of trial and error with the actual system based on it, but still can't solve this specific problem of multiple flashes firing sporadically.

I have a photogrammetry rig set up, where you capture numerous photos to create super high detailed 3D head models. Working well but the flash set up is causing headaches!

The setup is as follows.

There are 48 Nikon D3300s each with a Yongnuo RF603ii wireless trigger on the hotshoe

There are 8 flashes: YN560 - iv

All cameras are being triggered using Yongnuo RF603ii wireless triggers on the cameras with one additional unit as the 'master' trigger

Flashes are being triggered through the same 'master' trigger via a main controller - Yongnuo YN560-TX. The controller sits on a wireless trigger that itself sits on one of the hot shoes of the camera

Flashes are powered externally and cycle fine

All triggers and flashes are on the same channel (1) so dip switches set in the units and channel 1 selected on flash and main controller

I've been mostly testing with flashes at full power today but have seen the same problem with them at 1/2 power (next set of tests will look at lower power)

I've tried various speeds within the sync range and anything from 1/200 to 1/5 can still produce sporadic results where some flashes are lit and some not, or the camera will miss the flash completely resulting in a dark frame, or all flashes light, doesn't seem to be a pattern

I am trawling through the minutae of the somewhat cryptic user manuals, but have tried most things I can think of and hoping someone has some new ideas, as there seems to be some very knowledgable people on these forums talking about these makes/models.

Is it possible that the system is just too much? There are 48 cameras being triggered and 8 flashes. It is a thing of beauty when it works but need it be fully reliable.

Any help very welcome, and if I've missed anything in the description let me know. It makes sense to me but perhaps haven't described it well.

Thank you!

Ian

 

[fotowbert]

Welcome to dpreview. See my comments below.

Hi,

I've had a good search around the forums and lots of trial and error with the actual system based on it, but still can't solve this specific problem of multiple flashes firing sporadically.

I have a photogrammetry rig set up, where you capture numerous photos to create super high detailed 3D head models. Working well but the flash set up is causing headaches!

The setup is as follows.

There are 48 Nikon D3300s each with a Yongnuo RF603ii wireless trigger on the hotshoe

I assume you are doing this for the RF6-3II's remote shutter feature so all cameras trip simultaneously. Is that correct?

Using identical camera models will give you as near simultaneous actuation as you can get within the variation that exists in an individual camera's shutter control mechanism provided the cameras are not auto-focusing.

There are 8 flashes: YN560 - iv

All cameras are being triggered using Yongnuo RF603ii wireless triggers on the cameras with one additional unit as the 'master' trigger

This RF603II's side switch is set to TRX like those attached to the cameras. I've use an extra RF603II hand-held set this way to trigger two D7000s simultaneously. More on this below.

Flashes are being triggered through the same 'master' trigger via a main controller - Yongnuo YN560-TX.

If I understand your setup you are actually bombarding the 8 speedlights with at least 48 signals to fire. A RF603II is capable of being both a receiver for remote shutter operation and a transmitter for flash triggering all on the same RF channel. With a RF603II in each camera's hot-shoe it will therefore send a fire flash signal once the shutter has opened. This adds more variability so I would expect there will be a slight spread to all these fire flash signals. This may be overloading the receivers on your speedlights and/or confusing them.

The controller sits on a wireless trigger that itself sits on one of the hot shoes of the camera

That is unnecessary in my experience. Use the 560-TX hand-held to remotely control the power of the 8 speedlights. A single RF603II on one of the cameras is all you need to trigger the speedlights.

I suggest you remove the other 47 from their hot-shoes. Let them dangle by the shutter cord if you don't want to tape them. Another approach it to use 2 RF channels. Use Ch 1 for remote shutter triggering. On only one camera let the Ch 1 RF603II dangle and have another RF603II in its hot-shoe set to Ch 2 (or whatever) to trigger the speedlights which will then be using Ch 2 as will your 560-TX.

Here is my experience. I use my YN560-TX hand held to set manual power levels on my three YN 560III speedlights while flash metering. A RF603II on camera (camera is tripod mounted) triggers the speedlights for the actual image capture and also serves as remote shutter release. This way I don't disturb the camera by returning the 560-TX to its hot-shoe. I have to use the hand-held RF603II to trip the camera because the 560-TX doesn't allow reconfiguring its test button to remote shutter actuation.

I've also experimented with capturing the same flash image on two D7000 cameras. This was in a darkened room so ambient exposure wasn't an issue. Both cameras were remotely triggered by the shutter cords from 2 RF603IIs. Only the camera that triggered the flash had its RF603II in the hot-shoe. This camera was set to rear-curtain sync and a 1/125 shutter speed. The other camera used a 1/60 shutter speed. The intent was to insure the 2nd camera's shutter was open when the flash fired. A third RF603II activated the cameras.

• John

 

[tugwilson]

@fotowbert is right. You only need on trigger for the strobes. Get rid of the other 47.

 

[eyeb]

Welcome to dpreview. See my comments below.

Thanks, and thanks for taking the time to go through this, great to have someone else thinking it through who understands these!

Hi,

I've had a good search around the forums and lots of trial and error with the actual system based on it, but still can't solve this specific problem of multiple flashes firing sporadically.

I have a photogrammetry rig set up, where you capture numerous photos to create super high detailed 3D head models. Working well but the flash set up is causing headaches!

The setup is as follows.

There are 48 Nikon D3300s each with a Yongnuo RF603ii wireless trigger on the hotshoe

I assume you are doing this for the RF6-3II's remote shutter feature so all cameras trip simultaneously. Is that correct?

Using identical camera models will give you as near simultaneous actuation as you can get within the variation that exists in an individual camera's shutter control mechanism provided the cameras are not auto-focusing.

Yes, using the triggers to fire all cameras trigger simultaneously, I've also used these cameras for time freeze photography so pretty certain the shutters have very little variation with these triggers. All cameras are in Manual mode with manual focus.

There are 8 flashes: YN560 - iv

All cameras are being triggered using Yongnuo RF603ii wireless triggers on the cameras with one additional unit as the 'master' trigger

This RF603II's side switch is set to TRX like those attached to the cameras. I've use an extra RF603II hand-held set this way to trigger two D7000s simultaneously. More on this below.

Correct, the 'master' trigger is set to TRX

Flashes are being triggered through the same 'master' trigger via a main controller - Yongnuo YN560-TX.

If I understand your setup you are actually bombarding the 8 speedlights with at least 48 signals to fire. A RF603II is capable of being both a receiver for remote shutter operation and a transmitter for flash triggering all on the same RF channel. With a RF603II in each camera's hot-shoe it will therefore send a fire flash signal once the shutter has opened. This adds more variability so I would expect there will be a slight spread to all these fire flash signals. This may be overloading the receivers on your speedlights and/or confusing them.

That's interesting and very true

The controller sits on a wireless trigger that itself sits on one of the hot shoes of the camera

That is unnecessary in my experience. Use the 560-TX hand-held to remotely control the power of the 8 speedlights. A single RF603II on one of the cameras is all you need to trigger the speedlights.

I suggest you remove the other 47 from their hot-shoes. Let them dangle by the shutter cord if you don't want to tape them. Another approach it to use 2 RF channels. Use Ch 1 for remote shutter triggering. On only one camera let the Ch 1 RF603II dangle and have another RF603II in its hot-shoe set to Ch 2 (or whatever) to trigger the speedlights which will then be using Ch 2 as will your 560-TX.

You know what John, that is why I came here, hoping to find someone knowledgeable with a fresh take on it! I've tried so many things and though I was thinking about the different channels as an option I actually came up with neither of these as solutions, but it is so logical when you say it, brilliant! Will try your suggested setups out, fingers truly crossed.

Here is my experience. I use my YN560-TX hand held to set manual power levels on my three YN 560III speedlights while flash metering. A RF603II on camera (camera is tripod mounted) triggers the speedlights for the actual image capture and also serves as remote shutter release. This way I don't disturb the camera by returning the 560-TX to its hot-shoe. I have to use the hand-held RF603II to trip the camera because the 560-TX doesn't allow reconfiguring its test button to remote shutter actuation.

I've also experimented with capturing the same flash image on two D7000 cameras. This was in a darkened room so ambient exposure wasn't an issue. Both cameras were remotely triggered by the shutter cords from 2 RF603IIs. Only the camera that triggered the flash had its RF603II in the hot-shoe. This camera was set to rear-curtain sync and a 1/125 shutter speed. The other camera used a 1/60 shutter speed. The intent was to insure the 2nd camera's shutter was open when the flash fired. A third RF603II activated the cameras.

John, thanks so much for sharing your experience, and your knowledge, I've been banging my head against this one for a while. That gives a nice new set of options to try out. Once I've had a chance to run some more tests I'll report back!

All the best,

Ian

• John

 

[eyeb]

Thanks Tug! Going to test it out and report back!

 

[eyeb]

So some test results from today, be great to hear your thoughts.

I started with the suggested double trigger solution, one trigger plugged into the camera via the cable and hanging, another in the hotshoe with the controller on top,no cable.

All cameras and 'master' trigger were set on channel one.

The second/flash trigger in the camera hotshoe was set on channel 16 with the controller on top (dip switches in the trigger and channel selected on controller). Set the flashes up on channel 16, got everything ready and...

disappointingly no flash at all!

It seems that if I remove the triggers from the hotshoes and have them just cabled - the cameras simply won't trigger with the 'master' trigger (unless I'm missing something?), all triggers to set TRX.

So as the camera was not triggering, obviously neither was the flash...

I tried some other things, including putting the Flash controller on its own trigger (this time not attached to a camera , which I have tried in the past) - trigger on channel 1 (same as all the other camera triggers), flash controller and flashes set to channel 16. Once I got down to 1/15 of a second I had 10 sets of images in a row which all hit the flash, which seems encouraging, at 1/30 of a second still getting missed flashes.

Still more exploration and testing to be done, and should the cameras be getting triggered with the remote cabled but not in the hot shoe?

Many thanks!

 

[tdwesbo]

You can’t fire the cameras and the flashes with the same sync signal. It sounds like you’re trying to do that. You have to use one I also to fi th camera shutters, and then use a trigger synced to one shutter to fire the flashes. If the flashes and the shutters fire at the same time, the flashes will have cured and gone dark before the shutters are even open all the way.

id be tempted to use long shutter speeds, like one second, and set the flash trigger to rear curtain sync. Then you’d be pretty sure you gat a good exposure with each camera. Or, to get around the issue completely, continuous lighting

 

[tugwilson]

OK.

So as I understand it using a single trigger to fire the flashes works OK?

Your problem is that not all the cameras always have the shutter open when the flash fires?

The camera problem could be that they take a different time from the firing circuit being completed to the shutter being fully open. I think that this is highly unlikely to be the problem. There are probably small differences but not enough to cause this problem.

The second possibility is that there is a variation in the time the wireless triggers take to react to the fire command. I think that this is a distinct possibility.

If I were you I'd abandon the radio trigger approach for shutter releas and wire the camera release to a single switch. Actually I'd trigger them in groups of 8 using an Arduino Nano or the like driving eight solid state relays and trigger the Arduinos from a central switch.

 

[tugwilson]

He's not doing that.

He'd firing the shutter release of all the cameras using one trigger on one channel then firing the speedlights using another trigger on one of the camera susing another channel.

 

[eyeb]

Thanks for all the replies,

Yes, food for thought, the thing about changing to continuous or hard wired triggers is that this system was also part of a time freeze rig so that was the hardware that we went with. Very costly to make changes now, plus there are already a lot of cables as all cameras are powered as are flashes so aiming to make the best of what I've got until someone comes along and gives me a stack of cash to overhaul the system Also, when it works it works really well, just need to squeeze some more consistency out of it.

Just to clarify, what I found working today and the setup as I'm not sure I explained it very accurately:

All triggers (RF603n ii) are set on channel 1...

There are 48 identical cameras (Nikon D3300) each with a trigger connected to the camera via cable and sat in the hotshoe

the flash controller Yongnuo YN560 TX (set to channel 16) is sitting on trigger no. 49 (off camera)

The 'master' trigger (call it 50) when pressed then triggers everything

I found if I took the triggers out of the camera hotshoes then the cameras would not fire, so continued testing with them back in the hotshoes and cabled as I normally would.

As you say Tug, there may be discrepencies in the timing, this already seems to work better than having the flash controller sitting on a trigger on a camera from my tests today, but as we all know behaviour can be sporadic so will do some more shots.

What I was seeing at 1/15 was that all flashes are clearly firing and caught in the frame with the tests I did today. If that proves stable, I can work with that as I'm capturing people in static poses and can play with aperture and flash strength.

Also had a good old delve into the extra flash settings to ensure all sleep/idle functions are off and no curly ones there..

tbc!

Ian

 

[Richard Hopkins]

Thanks for all the replies,

Yes, food for thought, the thing about changing to continuous or hard wired triggers is that this system was also part of a time freeze rig so that was the hardware that we went with. Very costly to make changes now, plus there are already a lot of cables as all cameras are powered as are flashes so aiming to make the best of what I've got until someone comes along and gives me a stack of cash to overhaul the system Also, when it works it works really well, just need to squeeze some more consistency out of it.

Just to clarify, what I found working today and the setup as I'm not sure I explained it very accurately:

All triggers (RF603n ii) are set on channel 1...

There are 48 identical cameras (Nikon D3300) each with a trigger connected to the camera via cable and sat in the hotshoe

the flash controller Yongnuo YN560 TX (set to channel 16) is sitting on trigger no. 49 (off camera)

The 'master' trigger (call it 50) when pressed then triggers everything

I found if I took the triggers out of the camera hotshoes then the cameras would not fire, so continued testing with them back in the hotshoes and cabled as I normally would.

As you say Tug, there may be discrepencies in the timing, this already seems to work better than having the flash controller sitting on a trigger on a camera from my tests today, but as we all know behaviour can be sporadic so will do some more shots.

What I was seeing at 1/15 was that all flashes are clearly firing and caught in the frame with the tests I did today. If that proves stable, I can work with that as I'm capturing people in static poses and can play with aperture and flash strength.

Also had a good old delve into the extra flash settings to ensure all sleep/idle functions are off and no curly ones there..

tbc!

Ian

This doesn't sound right. Without trawling through the whole thread, look at it this way - how would you go about triggering just one remote camera unit? That's easy, so get that working and then add as many more identical remote camera units as you need - they will all fire as one.

If you have intermittent problems, check the firmware, then check for local RF interference (by trying different channels).

Edit: if radio triggering problems persist, switching to optical triggering would side-step that.

 

[eyeb]

Thanks Richard for your reply. All cameras are triggering fine with remote triggers but I'm not consistently hitting the flashes. One flash mounted directly on the on-camera trigger and using that as a transmitter (TX mode) or an optical trigger as you suggest may be another test to do.


The previous configuration that I hoped was stable, sadly isn't

I'm going to introduce a timer into the scene to see if I can work out if the cameras are missing by triggering before or after the flashes. I am seeing all flashes firing in the photos where it is captured.

tbc...

 

[eyeb]

That is unnecessary in my experience. Use the 560-TX hand-held to remotely control the power of the 8 speedlights. A single RF603II on one of the cameras is all you need to trigger the speedlights

Trying to figure out why this doesn't seem to be working - if I plug them into the cable but not the hot shoe then they don't trigger from the 'master' trigger at all..

 

[Richard Hopkins]

Thanks Richard for your reply. All cameras are triggering fine with remote triggers but I'm not consistently hitting the flashes. One flash mounted directly on the on-camera trigger and using that as a transmitter (TX mode) or an optical trigger as you suggest may be another test to do.

The previous configuration that I hoped was stable, sadly isn't

I'm going to introduce a timer into the scene to see if I can work out if the cameras are missing by triggering before or after the flashes. I am seeing all flashes firing in the photos where it is captured.

tbc...

If the cameras are always firing but the flashes are inconsistent, then it's not a radio triggering problem - it's the camera or flash. Inconsistent firing often points to a dodgy hot-shoe connection, either dirty or loose. Are the cameras turned vertical by any chance, in portrait position? That's a common cause of poor hot-shoe contact.

As mentioned before, if your rig works for one camera/flash/trigger unit, then it will work for as many as you want. If it doesn't, the problem is down to the individual units.

ps Optical triggering is a way around RF issues if that proves to be the case for whatever reason, but it would require more kit and faffing around. Suggest stick to Plan A for now!

 

[eyeb]

That is unnecessary in my experience. Use the 560-TX hand-held to remotely control the power of the 8 speedlights. A single RF603II on one of the cameras is all you need to trigger the speedlights

Trying to figure out why this doesn't seem to be working - if I plug them into the cable but not the hot shoe then they don't trigger from the 'master' trigger at all..

And just to be clear I mean dangling the triggers doesn't fire the cameras.. thanks!

 

[fotowbert]

That is unnecessary in my experience. Use the 560-TX hand-held to remotely control the power of the 8 speedlights. A single RF603II on one of the cameras is all you need to trigger the speedlights

Trying to figure out why this doesn't seem to be working - if I plug them into the cable but not the hot shoe then they don't trigger from the 'master' trigger at all..

You are taking here about remote shutter operation with RF603II, right?

I've often used a RF603II dangling by the shutter cord connected to one of my D7000s and the camera's shutter will actuate when I press the test button on another RF603II in my hand.

In this usage the reason the RF603 dangles is because the camera's hot-shoe is occupied by an SB-600 flash in TTL mode. I loose TTL mode if I piggyback the flash on top of the RF603II in its non-TTL pass thru top hot-shoe.

The side switch on both RF603IIs must be set to "TRX" for this usage. The unit at the camera needs TRX so it can receive RF signals. TRX is also needed for the hand-held unit because that enables its test button to actuate the remote shutter function. (FYI the "TX" position of the RF603II side switch also has 2 functions. TX allows the units test button to actuate the fire flash signal and the unit will only transmit.)

I would expect what I suggested to work with a D3300. You are the 1st report I've seen that it doesn't. I'm using the shutter cord that came with my 2 pr of RF603II Nikon version units. It is a 3 conductor cable to provide half-press and full-press behavior just like the camera's shutter button. The 3rd conductor is camera ground. Are you using some other perhaps DIY connection between the RF603II's remote shutter port and the D3300 port?

What you describe makes me suspect you aren't getting a ground connection thru the shutter cable. When the RF603II is in the hot-shoe it my work because it picks up camera ground thru the RF603II's metal foot plate.

I hope this helps you.

• John

--
"[If you don't sweat the details] the magic doesn't work." Brooks, F. P., The Mythical Man-Month, Addison-Wesley, 1975, page 8.

 

[eyeb]

Thanks John for sticking with it and more insight. So I'm struggling to understand the lack of triggering too, but thought I'd understood you correctly when you said to dangle them...

That is unnecessary in my experience. Use the 560-TX hand-held to remotely control the power of the 8 speedlights. A single RF603II on one of the cameras is all you need to trigger the speedlights

Trying to figure out why this doesn't seem to be working - if I plug them into the cable but not the hot shoe then they don't trigger from the 'master' trigger at all..

You are taking here about remote shutter operation with RF603II, right?

Exactly, one on camera one handheld to trigger it

I've often used a RF603II dangling by the shutter cord connected to one of my D7000s and the camera's shutter will actuate when I press the test button on another RF603II in my hand.

When you say test button, are you talking about the main trigger button (think this is the only button on these units!)

In this usage the reason the RF603 dangles is because the camera's hot-shoe is occupied by an SB-600 flash in TTL mode. I loose TTL mode if I piggyback the flash on top of the RF603II in its non-TTL pass thru top hot-shoe.

And this type of usage makes logical sense as to why the trigger wouldn't need to sit in the hot shoe to function

The side switch on both RF603IIs must be set to "TRX" for this usage. The unit at the camera needs TRX so it can receive RF signals. TRX is also needed for the hand-held unit because that enables its test button to actuate the remote shutter function. (FYI the "TX" position of the RF603II side switch also has 2 functions. TX allows the units test button to actuate the fire flash signal and the unit will only transmit.)

Understood, and all triggers set to TRX

I would expect what I suggested to work with a D3300. You are the 1st report I've seen that it doesn't. I'm using the shutter cord that came with my 2 pr of RF603II Nikon version units. It is a 3 conductor cable to provide half-press and full-press behavior just like the camera's shutter button. The 3rd conductor is camera ground. Are you using some other perhaps DIY connection between the RF603II's remote shutter port and the D3300 port?

Using the original cables that came with the packs of triggers

What you describe makes me suspect you aren't getting a ground connection thru the shutter cable. When the RF603II is in the hot-shoe it my work because it picks up camera ground thru the RF603II's metal foot plate.

Interesting, that sounds likely if they normally function with dangling triggers.

I'll take it back to basics and try a battery powered camera off the rig to see if it triggers with a dangling cable..

I hope this helps you.

• John

Really helpful, informative and also the encouragement I need to continue banging my head against the problem. Thank you John!

 

[eyeb]

What you describe makes me suspect you aren't getting a ground connection thru the shutter cable. When the RF603II is in the hot-shoe it my work because it picks up camera ground thru the RF603II's metal foot plate.

and just fyi, the cameras are connected via USB back to a computer to relay the images and are powered by expro power units, which essentially plug into the mains and then go via a powerpack to a dummy battery unit in the camera..

 

[eyeb]

What you describe makes me suspect you aren't getting a ground connection thru the shutter cable. When the RF603II is in the hot-shoe it my work because it picks up camera ground thru the RF603II's metal foot plate.

and just fyi, the cameras are connected via USB back to a computer to relay the images and are powered by expro power units, which essentially plug into the mains and then go via a powerpack to a dummy battery unit in the camera..

Hi!

So had a long day kit bashing! Started with a basic two camera untethered setup with batteries and got the triggering to happen, then worked my way up.

When I got to a camera on the rig I found the same thing happening, nothing being triggered, I tried swapping round triggers, cables, usb hubs, more cables, switch to batteries...

Long story short, I found that one of the triggers on the rig cameras doesn't fire without something in the hotshoe and seems to have a knock on effect, though still trying to figure out exactly how, but seems to fit with the bad earth theory?!

I've taken it out of the equation, and not counting my chickens yet, but I was firing 26 cameras with dangling triggers and they hit all the flashes (triggered from a second trigger in the camera hotshoe on a different channel as suggested) in 25 consecutive photo sets! Certainly the most consistency so far. I'll be so bloody happy if this has actually solved it!

Thanks again so much for throwing your time and energy at the problem, just so incredibly helpful to have someone else look at the problem who understands it and can sanity check with expected behaviour.

Will test the full setup Monday and report back. Many thanks again!