1DX III Samples of HEIC / HEIF files compared to RAW?

[David Carlyon]

I found a comparison of Canon's HEIC files compared to JPEG, but I'm interested in how they compare to RAW, in quality and editing flexibility as well as filesize. Are there any 1DXIII owners who have evaluated this? I assume things like WB, Sharpness, Picture Styles, etc, will be baked in as with JPEGs?

(Although I'm unlikely to get a 1DXIII myself (not enough megapixels for my needs), I'm interested in the upcoming R5, and expect it will have HEIC. I'm a dedicated RAW shooter, even though I do events with thousands of photos in a weekend, and a big jump in megapixels would bog down my workflow, but I'm wondering what penalties there would be for using HEIC to shrink the filesizes.)

 

[RLight]

I found a comparison of Canon's HEIC files compared to JPEG, but I'm interested in how they compare to RAW, in quality and editing flexibility as well as filesize. Are there any 1DXIII owners who have evaluated this? I assume things like WB, Sharpness, Picture Styles, etc, will be baked in as with JPEGs?

(Although I'm unlikely to get a 1DXIII myself (not enough megapixels for my needs), I'm interested in the upcoming R5, and expect it will have HEIC. I'm a dedicated RAW shooter, even though I do events with thousands of photos in a weekend, and a big jump in megapixels would bog down my workflow, but I'm wondering what penalties there would be for using HEIC to shrink the filesizes.)

Bump.

Picking on this as the R5/R6 world probably will support 10-bit HEIF output as well, and with Adobe's stubbornness to pay the ransom to Canon for a color match, HEIF output makes for a good alternative to doing any RAW processing as now even Apple Photos can tweak with better results than a JPEG. Between RF lenses having profile data on-lens, so correctional data is available instantly, DLO processing and Canon's pretty accurate AWB these days, if, you add 10-bit latitude to the mix? This could be pretty interesting.

This becomes a subject unto itself... HEIF formats largely come from iPhones, small sensors. Outside of the 1DX Mark III, I don't know this has been done. Likewise, I don't know how well post processors aside from Apple's Photos, handle adjustments to HEIFs.

 

[juanmaasecas]

I found a comparison of Canon's HEIC files compared to JPEG, but I'm interested in how they compare to RAW, in quality and editing flexibility as well as filesize. Are there any 1DXIII owners who have evaluated this? I assume things like WB, Sharpness, Picture Styles, etc, will be baked in as with JPEGs?

(Although I'm unlikely to get a 1DXIII myself (not enough megapixels for my needs), I'm interested in the upcoming R5, and expect it will have HEIC. I'm a dedicated RAW shooter, even though I do events with thousands of photos in a weekend, and a big jump in megapixels would bog down my workflow, but I'm wondering what penalties there would be for using HEIC to shrink the filesizes.)

Bump.

Picking on this as the R5/R6 world probably will support 10-bit HEIF output as well, and with Adobe's stubbornness to pay the ransom to Canon for a color match, HEIF output makes for a good alternative to doing any RAW processing as now even Apple Photos can tweak with better results than a JPEG. Between RF lenses having profile data on-lens, so correctional data is available instantly, DLO processing and Canon's pretty accurate AWB these days, if, you add 10-bit latitude to the mix? This could be pretty interesting.

This becomes a subject unto itself... HEIF formats largely come from iPhones, small sensors. Outside of the 1DX Mark III, I don't know this has been done. Likewise, I don't know how well post processors aside from Apple's Photos, handle adjustments to HEIFs.

I would love if someone with a 1Dx MKIII could share some heif files to test. I think they can be edited in Lightroom right?

 

[RLight]

I found a comparison of Canon's HEIC files compared to JPEG, but I'm interested in how they compare to RAW, in quality and editing flexibility as well as filesize. Are there any 1DXIII owners who have evaluated this? I assume things like WB, Sharpness, Picture Styles, etc, will be baked in as with JPEGs?

(Although I'm unlikely to get a 1DXIII myself (not enough megapixels for my needs), I'm interested in the upcoming R5, and expect it will have HEIC. I'm a dedicated RAW shooter, even though I do events with thousands of photos in a weekend, and a big jump in megapixels would bog down my workflow, but I'm wondering what penalties there would be for using HEIC to shrink the filesizes.)

Bump.

Picking on this as the R5/R6 world probably will support 10-bit HEIF output as well, and with Adobe's stubbornness to pay the ransom to Canon for a color match, HEIF output makes for a good alternative to doing any RAW processing as now even Apple Photos can tweak with better results than a JPEG. Between RF lenses having profile data on-lens, so correctional data is available instantly, DLO processing and Canon's pretty accurate AWB these days, if, you add 10-bit latitude to the mix? This could be pretty interesting.

This becomes a subject unto itself... HEIF formats largely come from iPhones, small sensors. Outside of the 1DX Mark III, I don't know this has been done. Likewise, I don't know how well post processors aside from Apple's Photos, handle adjustments to HEIFs.

I would love if someone with a 1Dx MKIII could share some heif files to test. I think they can be edited in Lightroom right?

HEIF has been supported by Adobe since 2018. Should behave no different than an iPhone picture with the same benefits and limitation, except obviously a-lot more oomph vs an HEIF out of an iPhone!

The benefits is 10-bit (vs 8-bit JPEG) and no need for color matching or lens correction data.

The limitations of lack of WB correction, sharpness and noise reduction "baked in" and only 10-bit (vs 14 or 16 bit RAW files). So you'd need to fine tune your noise reduction and sharpness in camera obviously, but I understand the 1DX III has more customizability in regards to sharpness and better noise reduction so that's not necessarily that bad of a thing.

 

[juanmaasecas]

I found a comparison of Canon's HEIC files compared to JPEG, but I'm interested in how they compare to RAW, in quality and editing flexibility as well as filesize. Are there any 1DXIII owners who have evaluated this? I assume things like WB, Sharpness, Picture Styles, etc, will be baked in as with JPEGs?

(Although I'm unlikely to get a 1DXIII myself (not enough megapixels for my needs), I'm interested in the upcoming R5, and expect it will have HEIC. I'm a dedicated RAW shooter, even though I do events with thousands of photos in a weekend, and a big jump in megapixels would bog down my workflow, but I'm wondering what penalties there would be for using HEIC to shrink the filesizes.)

Bump.

Picking on this as the R5/R6 world probably will support 10-bit HEIF output as well, and with Adobe's stubbornness to pay the ransom to Canon for a color match, HEIF output makes for a good alternative to doing any RAW processing as now even Apple Photos can tweak with better results than a JPEG. Between RF lenses having profile data on-lens, so correctional data is available instantly, DLO processing and Canon's pretty accurate AWB these days, if, you add 10-bit latitude to the mix? This could be pretty interesting.

This becomes a subject unto itself... HEIF formats largely come from iPhones, small sensors. Outside of the 1DX Mark III, I don't know this has been done. Likewise, I don't know how well post processors aside from Apple's Photos, handle adjustments to HEIFs.

I would love if someone with a 1Dx MKIII could share some heif files to test. I think they can be edited in Lightroom right?

HEIF has been supported by Adobe since 2018. Should behave no different than an iPhone picture with the same benefits and limitation, except obviously a-lot more oomph vs an HEIF out of an iPhone!

The benefits is 10-bit (vs 8-bit JPEG) and no need for color matching or lens correction data.

The limitations of lack of WB correction, sharpness and noise reduction "baked in" and only 10-bit (vs 14 or 16 bit RAW files). So you'd need to fine tune your noise reduction and sharpness in camera obviously, but I understand the 1DX III has more customizability in regards to sharpness and better noise reduction so that's not necessarily that bad of a thing.

And I think in the heif format can go higher in bits, so the differences with raw will minimize further. I think the future is there, I don’t want to be dealing with bad color profiles in third party software if I like the brand color signature as starting point for small edits in most of the pictures I take when I just want minor edits etc, and DPP is too slow...

having that kind of file with higher dynamic range than the jpg, Canon color science, and also in camera sharpening and noise reduction (that gives more pleasing results than Lightroom in general...) is a win win...

 

[RLight]

I found a comparison of Canon's HEIC files compared to JPEG, but I'm interested in how they compare to RAW, in quality and editing flexibility as well as filesize. Are there any 1DXIII owners who have evaluated this? I assume things like WB, Sharpness, Picture Styles, etc, will be baked in as with JPEGs?

(Although I'm unlikely to get a 1DXIII myself (not enough megapixels for my needs), I'm interested in the upcoming R5, and expect it will have HEIC. I'm a dedicated RAW shooter, even though I do events with thousands of photos in a weekend, and a big jump in megapixels would bog down my workflow, but I'm wondering what penalties there would be for using HEIC to shrink the filesizes.)

Bump.

Picking on this as the R5/R6 world probably will support 10-bit HEIF output as well, and with Adobe's stubbornness to pay the ransom to Canon for a color match, HEIF output makes for a good alternative to doing any RAW processing as now even Apple Photos can tweak with better results than a JPEG. Between RF lenses having profile data on-lens, so correctional data is available instantly, DLO processing and Canon's pretty accurate AWB these days, if, you add 10-bit latitude to the mix? This could be pretty interesting.

This becomes a subject unto itself... HEIF formats largely come from iPhones, small sensors. Outside of the 1DX Mark III, I don't know this has been done. Likewise, I don't know how well post processors aside from Apple's Photos, handle adjustments to HEIFs.

I would love if someone with a 1Dx MKIII could share some heif files to test. I think they can be edited in Lightroom right?

HEIF has been supported by Adobe since 2018. Should behave no different than an iPhone picture with the same benefits and limitation, except obviously a-lot more oomph vs an HEIF out of an iPhone!

The benefits is 10-bit (vs 8-bit JPEG) and no need for color matching or lens correction data.

The limitations of lack of WB correction, sharpness and noise reduction "baked in" and only 10-bit (vs 14 or 16 bit RAW files). So you'd need to fine tune your noise reduction and sharpness in camera obviously, but I understand the 1DX III has more customizability in regards to sharpness and better noise reduction so that's not necessarily that bad of a thing.

And I think in the heif format can go higher in bits, so the differences with raw will minimize further. I think the future is there, I don’t want to be dealing with bad color profiles in third party software if I like the brand color signature as starting point for small edits in most of the pictures I take when I just want minor edits etc, and DPP is too slow...

having that kind of file with higher dynamic range than the jpg, Canon color science, and also in camera sharpening and noise reduction (that gives more pleasing results than Lightroom in general...) is a win win...

Yes to all the above.

The catch: Canon's flavor of HEIF presently is 10-bit, even though the format supports more than that.

10-bit is a leapfrog over 8-bit, but yes, 12 or 14-bit would be better still; more like an efficiently compressed TIFF. 10-bit HEIF gets us fairly close though to a TIFF in terms of practical use. RAW or CRAW still should be captured alongside for "troublesome" shots where drop is needed for squeezing out of the image, but HEIF should be able to address a vast amount of post processing needs when combined with Canon's other technologies (AWB with AWB-W support, newer sharpness and NR engines, newer CFA, DLO and ALO in camera with multiple strengths and configurations).

Here's a quote lifted straight from Canon's document on R5 improvements regarding the matter:

"Both EOS R5 and EOS R6 are capable of recording [HDR-PQ Shooting] still images in HEIF file format. These 10-bit files feature broader tonal range and bit depth in-comparison to 8-bit JPEG image, allowing for even more highlight detail to be captured, when displayed on HDR-compliant monitors or via HDR printing workflow."

 

[juanmaasecas]

I found a comparison of Canon's HEIC files compared to JPEG, but I'm interested in how they compare to RAW, in quality and editing flexibility as well as filesize. Are there any 1DXIII owners who have evaluated this? I assume things like WB, Sharpness, Picture Styles, etc, will be baked in as with JPEGs?

(Although I'm unlikely to get a 1DXIII myself (not enough megapixels for my needs), I'm interested in the upcoming R5, and expect it will have HEIC. I'm a dedicated RAW shooter, even though I do events with thousands of photos in a weekend, and a big jump in megapixels would bog down my workflow, but I'm wondering what penalties there would be for using HEIC to shrink the filesizes.)

Bump.

Picking on this as the R5/R6 world probably will support 10-bit HEIF output as well, and with Adobe's stubbornness to pay the ransom to Canon for a color match, HEIF output makes for a good alternative to doing any RAW processing as now even Apple Photos can tweak with better results than a JPEG. Between RF lenses having profile data on-lens, so correctional data is available instantly, DLO processing and Canon's pretty accurate AWB these days, if, you add 10-bit latitude to the mix? This could be pretty interesting.

This becomes a subject unto itself... HEIF formats largely come from iPhones, small sensors. Outside of the 1DX Mark III, I don't know this has been done. Likewise, I don't know how well post processors aside from Apple's Photos, handle adjustments to HEIFs.

I would love if someone with a 1Dx MKIII could share some heif files to test. I think they can be edited in Lightroom right?

HEIF has been supported by Adobe since 2018. Should behave no different than an iPhone picture with the same benefits and limitation, except obviously a-lot more oomph vs an HEIF out of an iPhone!

The benefits is 10-bit (vs 8-bit JPEG) and no need for color matching or lens correction data.

The limitations of lack of WB correction, sharpness and noise reduction "baked in" and only 10-bit (vs 14 or 16 bit RAW files). So you'd need to fine tune your noise reduction and sharpness in camera obviously, but I understand the 1DX III has more customizability in regards to sharpness and better noise reduction so that's not necessarily that bad of a thing.

And I think in the heif format can go higher in bits, so the differences with raw will minimize further. I think the future is there, I don’t want to be dealing with bad color profiles in third party software if I like the brand color signature as starting point for small edits in most of the pictures I take when I just want minor edits etc, and DPP is too slow...

having that kind of file with higher dynamic range than the jpg, Canon color science, and also in camera sharpening and noise reduction (that gives more pleasing results than Lightroom in general...) is a win win...

Yes to all the above.

The catch: Canon's flavor of HEIF presently is 10-bit, even though the format supports more than that.

10-bit is a leapfrog over 8-bit, but yes, 12 or 14-bit would be better still; more like an efficiently compressed TIFF. 10-bit HEIF gets us fairly close though to a TIFF in terms of practical use. RAW or CRAW still should be captured alongside for "troublesome" shots where drop is needed for squeezing out of the image, but HEIF should be able to address a vast amount of post processing needs when combined with Canon's other technologies (AWB with AWB-W support, newer sharpness and NR engines, newer CFA, DLO and ALO in camera with multiple strengths and configurations).

Here's a quote lifted straight from Canon's document on R5 improvements regarding the matter:

"Both EOS R5 and EOS R6 are capable of recording [HDR-PQ Shooting] still images in HEIF file format. These 10-bit files feature broader tonal range and bit depth in-comparison to 8-bit JPEG image, allowing for even more highlight detail to be captured, when displayed on HDR-compliant monitors or via HDR printing workflow."

But that’s the thing, reviewers are only processing the heif in camera to get a jpg with higher dynamic range (less contrast) and compare it with the regular jpg.
nobody so far, to my knowledge, has used a heif file for further edits and compared to the performance of the jpg for the same edits (and the raw). THAT is the interesting thing and that is what reviewers should be doing.



thats why, if some 1Dx iii owner can share a raw and an heif of the same image for us to play it would be wonderful.

 

[RLight]

I found a comparison of Canon's HEIC files compared to JPEG, but I'm interested in how they compare to RAW, in quality and editing flexibility as well as filesize. Are there any 1DXIII owners who have evaluated this? I assume things like WB, Sharpness, Picture Styles, etc, will be baked in as with JPEGs?

(Although I'm unlikely to get a 1DXIII myself (not enough megapixels for my needs), I'm interested in the upcoming R5, and expect it will have HEIC. I'm a dedicated RAW shooter, even though I do events with thousands of photos in a weekend, and a big jump in megapixels would bog down my workflow, but I'm wondering what penalties there would be for using HEIC to shrink the filesizes.)

Bump.

Picking on this as the R5/R6 world probably will support 10-bit HEIF output as well, and with Adobe's stubbornness to pay the ransom to Canon for a color match, HEIF output makes for a good alternative to doing any RAW processing as now even Apple Photos can tweak with better results than a JPEG. Between RF lenses having profile data on-lens, so correctional data is available instantly, DLO processing and Canon's pretty accurate AWB these days, if, you add 10-bit latitude to the mix? This could be pretty interesting.

This becomes a subject unto itself... HEIF formats largely come from iPhones, small sensors. Outside of the 1DX Mark III, I don't know this has been done. Likewise, I don't know how well post processors aside from Apple's Photos, handle adjustments to HEIFs.

I would love if someone with a 1Dx MKIII could share some heif files to test. I think they can be edited in Lightroom right?

HEIF has been supported by Adobe since 2018. Should behave no different than an iPhone picture with the same benefits and limitation, except obviously a-lot more oomph vs an HEIF out of an iPhone!

The benefits is 10-bit (vs 8-bit JPEG) and no need for color matching or lens correction data.

The limitations of lack of WB correction, sharpness and noise reduction "baked in" and only 10-bit (vs 14 or 16 bit RAW files). So you'd need to fine tune your noise reduction and sharpness in camera obviously, but I understand the 1DX III has more customizability in regards to sharpness and better noise reduction so that's not necessarily that bad of a thing.

And I think in the heif format can go higher in bits, so the differences with raw will minimize further. I think the future is there, I don’t want to be dealing with bad color profiles in third party software if I like the brand color signature as starting point for small edits in most of the pictures I take when I just want minor edits etc, and DPP is too slow...

having that kind of file with higher dynamic range than the jpg, Canon color science, and also in camera sharpening and noise reduction (that gives more pleasing results than Lightroom in general...) is a win win...

Yes to all the above.

The catch: Canon's flavor of HEIF presently is 10-bit, even though the format supports more than that.

10-bit is a leapfrog over 8-bit, but yes, 12 or 14-bit would be better still; more like an efficiently compressed TIFF. 10-bit HEIF gets us fairly close though to a TIFF in terms of practical use. RAW or CRAW still should be captured alongside for "troublesome" shots where drop is needed for squeezing out of the image, but HEIF should be able to address a vast amount of post processing needs when combined with Canon's other technologies (AWB with AWB-W support, newer sharpness and NR engines, newer CFA, DLO and ALO in camera with multiple strengths and configurations).

Here's a quote lifted straight from Canon's document on R5 improvements regarding the matter:

"Both EOS R5 and EOS R6 are capable of recording [HDR-PQ Shooting] still images in HEIF file format. These 10-bit files feature broader tonal range and bit depth in-comparison to 8-bit JPEG image, allowing for even more highlight detail to be captured, when displayed on HDR-compliant monitors or via HDR printing workflow."

But that’s the thing, reviewers are only processing the heif in camera to get a jpg with higher dynamic range (less contrast) and compare it with the regular jpg.
nobody so far, to my knowledge, has used a heif file for further edits and compared to the performance of the jpg for the same edits (and the raw). THAT is the interesting thing and that is what reviewers should be doing.

thats why, if some 1Dx iii owner can share a raw and an heif of the same image for us to play it would be wonderful.

Flip side of the coin, which you touched on, I gather Canon's both trying to future proof their format for HDR / next gen viewing technologies, but furthermore abolish the need to use a post processor at all. With a high res EVF/LCD, powerful in-camera RAW options like multiple powerful picture styles, multiple NR options, ALO options, DLO options, AWB and AWB-W options, more sharpness control and compression control, frankly I can see myself using SOOC JPEG/HEIF more frequently and doing in-camera RAW conversions, something I started playing with on the M50, and then further on the R, but could really take off for myself on the R5/R6 as I can edit shots "on-the-go", no computer needed, without the fuss either of compute requirements or having to park myself in front of coffee early on a Saturday morning (when I have free time to post process) and run through a DPP4 > LR workflow.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/2170856751/the-canon-eos-1d-x-mark-iii-shoots-canon-s-best-ever-jpegs

 

[lightnchade]

I found a comparison of Canon's HEIC files compared to JPEG, but I'm interested in how they compare to RAW, in quality and editing flexibility as well as filesize. Are there any 1DXIII owners who have evaluated this? I assume things like WB, Sharpness, Picture Styles, etc, will be baked in as with JPEGs?

(Although I'm unlikely to get a 1DXIII myself (not enough megapixels for my needs), I'm interested in the upcoming R5, and expect it will have HEIC. I'm a dedicated RAW shooter, even though I do events with thousands of photos in a weekend, and a big jump in megapixels would bog down my workflow, but I'm wondering what penalties there would be for using HEIC to shrink the filesizes.)

Bump.

Picking on this as the R5/R6 world probably will support 10-bit HEIF output as well, and with Adobe's stubbornness to pay the ransom to Canon for a color match, HEIF output makes for a good alternative to doing any RAW processing as now even Apple Photos can tweak with better results than a JPEG. Between RF lenses having profile data on-lens, so correctional data is available instantly, DLO processing and Canon's pretty accurate AWB these days, if, you add 10-bit latitude to the mix? This could be pretty interesting.

This becomes a subject unto itself... HEIF formats largely come from iPhones, small sensors. Outside of the 1DX Mark III, I don't know this has been done. Likewise, I don't know how well post processors aside from Apple's Photos, handle adjustments to HEIFs.

I would love if someone with a 1Dx MKIII could share some heif files to test. I think they can be edited in Lightroom right?

HEIF has been supported by Adobe since 2018. Should behave no different than an iPhone picture with the same benefits and limitation, except obviously a-lot more oomph vs an HEIF out of an iPhone!

The benefits is 10-bit (vs 8-bit JPEG) and no need for color matching or lens correction data.

The limitations of lack of WB correction, sharpness and noise reduction "baked in" and only 10-bit (vs 14 or 16 bit RAW files). So you'd need to fine tune your noise reduction and sharpness in camera obviously, but I understand the 1DX III has more customizability in regards to sharpness and better noise reduction so that's not necessarily that bad of a thing.

And I think in the heif format can go higher in bits, so the differences with raw will minimize further. I think the future is there, I don’t want to be dealing with bad color profiles in third party software if I like the brand color signature as starting point for small edits in most of the pictures I take when I just want minor edits etc, and DPP is too slow...

having that kind of file with higher dynamic range than the jpg, Canon color science, and also in camera sharpening and noise reduction (that gives more pleasing results than Lightroom in general...) is a win win...

It doesn't need any more than 10 bits. In raw those bits simply let you determine where to set your noise floor. This is already baked into the HEIF based on your exposure and noise reduction settings (which thankfully seem excellent for 1D/R5/R6).

The highlight recovery is set by using Highlight Tone Priority which causes the file to be underexposed by two stops and then the shadows raised electronically (seemingly with more excellent NR applied). This retains two stops of extra highlights, or you can shoot without HTP if it's not needed and thereby remove the noise penalty.

DR is represented in 10 bits using a 'clever' Hybrid Gamma with aspects of both linear and log (log for the top highlights IIRC).

Colour is represent using a wide gamut colour space and this is where 10 bits are most needed because using such a wide gamut space with only 8 bits (which is also actually possible with JPEG) can cause larger 'gaps' between the colours and can result in posterization.

You can see an approximation of the effects here:



The main issue at the moment is the 10bit HEIF is a bit tricky to work with directly and needs converting to a more common format to work with (macOS).

Thanks to the 'clever' hybrid gamma, the 8bit HEIC actually retains most of the DR but you can start to see the effects of posterization due to the wide colour space.

Interestingly, the JPG can also make use of the Hybrid Gamma (it initially displays with blown highlights, as they all do, but like the others the highlights are recoverable via an exposure or curves adjustment - depending on your editing software's working space) but it doesn't seem to respect the colour profile and appears to revert to sRGB, hence the colour differences.