E-M1.3, interesting claim about the Truepic IX processor

[MarkDavo]

In the opening sequence when discussing the M1.3 the reviewer stated that the M1.3 (Truepic IX) has the same processing power as the M1X (2xTruepicVIII). Well, does it?

I've not been able to find anything to validate that statement on any of the reviews or Olympus sites.

Has anyone?

 

[drj3]

We don't know if that was an assumption the reviewer made given it can do HHHR or something that Olympus told him.

I assume there will be some DPR members who have the E-M1X who get the E-M1.3 and they will be better able to say it that is true.

 

[Mark Ransom]

In the opening sequence when discussing the M1.3 the reviewer stated that the M1.3 (Truepic IX) has the same processing power as the M1X (2xTruepicVIII). Well, does it?

I've not been able to find anything to validate that statement on any of the reviews or Olympus sites.

Has anyone?

I thought I saw somewhere that the new Truepic is dual core while the old one was single core. If true it means the processing power has theoretically doubled, but it never works out that way in practice.

 

[3dwag]

In the opening sequence when discussing the M1.3 the reviewer stated that the M1.3 (Truepic IX) has the same processing power as the M1X (2xTruepicVIII). Well, does it?

I've not been able to find anything to validate that statement on any of the reviews or Olympus sites.

Has anyone?

Not yet, though I have heard Robin Wong make a similar comment.

Olympus have not officially said, perhaps in time we will get more information about this, bearing in mind that “processing power” is a bit of a nebulous phrase, and there are several design considerations which can impact the camera system‘s ability and speed at performing certain operations.

Perhaps the first paragraph in this post best states what we don’t know at this point: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63642889

 

[cba_melbourne]

from wikipedia:

***

The TruePic III+ is an improvement of the previous engine use in E450 DSLR, E620 and E30 (if not wrong, but use in E450 is confirmed).

The TruePic V engine is used in the Olympus Pen E-P1, E-P2, E-PL1 and XZ-1.[2] Advantages include faster processing time and nicer colour.

The TruePic V+ engine is used in the Olympus E-5.[3]

The TruePic VI engine is used in the Olympus Pen E-P3, E-PL3, E-PM1, TG-1, XZ-2, OM-D E-M5 and E-PL5.

The TruePic VII engine is used in the Olympus Pen E-PL7, E-PL8, OM-D E-M1, OM-D E-M10, OM-D E-M10 Mark II, OM-D E-M5 Mark II, PEN-F, Stylus SH-2, and Air A01.

The TruePic VIII engine is used in the Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II, E-M10 Mark III, Pen E-PL9 and E-M1X. The TruePic VIII Image Processor uses a dual quad core system with four CPU cores and four image processing cores that achieve image processing speeds approximately 3.5 times faster than the TruePic VII Processor.

***

Now, if Truepic 9 was indeed a brand new design.... then why is there still one UHS1 and one UHS2 memory card drive? Is this not something you would want to change if designing a new board from scratch in 2019? Could it be it is essentially the same Truepic 8 board , but just with a faster processor and/or better cooling?


this is the Truepic 8 board from the EM1.2, released in December 2016 (taken from Robin Wong's site). No pics yet of the Truepic 9 to compare it with.

 

[n3eg]

The TruePic VIII engine is used in the Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II, E-M10 Mark III, Pen E-PL9 and E-M1X.

Also the E-M5 III and E-PL10.

 

[glassoholic]

If some one can time the HHHR processing from an EM1X and an EM1.3, that would be interesting.

 

[cba_melbourne]

The TruePic VIII engine is used in the Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II, E-M10 Mark III, Pen E-PL9 and E-M1X.

Also the E-M5 III and E-PL10.

Exactly. If Truepic 9 was a completely new board, why not use it in all new models. It is possible Truepic9 is just a Truepic 8 with a high efficiency heat-pipe added for cooling, allowing the use of a higher clock speed. Who knows? He does, but is not too specific

Olympus interview with Masaomi Tomizawa, Director Image Processing Device, November 11 2019:

"The image processing engine is an IC chip that handles all processing operations- including color conversion, noise reduction and autofocusing. The engine was not developed for a single model; instead, a single engine was designed for all cameras in the current generation. Because of the long development period, a new engine is basically required to provide at least twice the performance of its predecessor. To make this possible, we use the latest IC chip for a new engine.
However, it is not enough to create a high-performance image processing engine. What is truly important when developing an engine is the power to anticipate what will come next. It is essential to be able to conceive and visualize the camera of the future by observing current trends and then developing the technology needed to make that camera a reality.
While the algorithm development team at Olympus indicates what needs to be implemented into the next model, the engine development team looks yet one step beyond that and works to provide the engine with flexibility. This extra margin determines the destiny of the camera systems for a generation.
For example, the E-M1X, which was released in January of 2019, employs two TruePic VIII image processing engines, each of which is identical to the engine incorporated in the E-M1 Mark II. We were able to incorporate two engines into the new model because we had previously embedded in each engine a mechanism to facilitate synchronization.

With two engines, an exciting new array of capabilities have been unleashed such as Handheld High Res Shot. Technically, the new Handheld High Res Shot’s framework is completely different from the previous Tripod High Res Shot. Nevertheless, this does not mean that the TruePic VIII actually incorporates the functionality for the Handheld High Res Shot function. All we did was to predict the kind of processing that would be required by analyzing trends and incorporating the parts required in advance. We later succeeded in implementing the Handheld High Res Shot with the E-M1X by combining those parts.
We are confident in our ability to anticipate the future. As the leader in mirrorless cameras, we were the first to launch development of a dedicated engine, the first to get feedback from our customers, and the first to translate that feedback into hardware.
One of our other strong points is that we send our engine developers out in the field with professional photographers. This gives our engineers a chance to observe professionals in action, to see how they use their equipment, what they need, what they like, and what will help them to achieve their shooting objectives. This data forms the basis for conceptualizing the next-gen engine, which will appear on the scene in a few years."

He says 3 months ago, the new engine will appear in a few years. So, would this imply Truepic 9 may not be that "new engine" yet, that his team is busy working on? Is Truepic 9 just a grab in the parts bin, or has it been substantially improved (beyond just clock speed) to bridge the time until the new engine is released?

 

[Kiwisnap]

Given how close the release dates are you’d think they could have put the newer processor in the 1X by waiting a few months.

 

[DrWu]

In the opening sequence when discussing the M1.3 the reviewer stated that the M1.3 (Truepic IX) has the same processing power as the M1X (2xTruepicVIII). Well, does it?

I've not been able to find anything to validate that statement on any of the reviews or Olympus sites.

Has anyone?

According to official Olympus website the processor is TruePic IX:

https://www.olympus.de/site/de/c/cameras/om_d_system_cameras/om_d/e_m1_mark_iii/index.html

Pekka

 

[3dwag]

Given how close the release dates are you’d think they could have put the newer processor in the 1X by waiting a few months.

They would have had to wait one more year to get the new IX processor into the EM1X.

 

[Kiwisnap]

Given how close the release dates are you’d think they could have put the newer processor in the 1X by waiting a few months.

They would have had to wait one more year to get the new IX processor into the EM1X.

Probably not. I suspect that the chip would have been well developed by the time the 1X was getting ready. I doubt they went from zero chip to full production of the final camera in a year.

Probably could have done it with a short delay - but imagine what they could have done with a camera with two of the new chips in..!

 

[abgestumpft]

from wikipedia:

***

The TruePic III+ is an improvement of the previous engine use in E450 DSLR, E620 and E30 (if not wrong, but use in E450 is confirmed).

The TruePic V engine is used in the Olympus Pen E-P1, E-P2, E-PL1 and XZ-1.[2] Advantages include faster processing time and nicer colour.

The TruePic V+ engine is used in the Olympus E-5.[3]

The TruePic VI engine is used in the Olympus Pen E-P3, E-PL3, E-PM1, TG-1, XZ-2, OM-D E-M5 and E-PL5.

The TruePic VII engine is used in the Olympus Pen E-PL7, E-PL8, OM-D E-M1, OM-D E-M10, OM-D E-M10 Mark II, OM-D E-M5 Mark II, PEN-F, Stylus SH-2, and Air A01.

The TruePic VIII engine is used in the Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II, E-M10 Mark III, Pen E-PL9 and E-M1X. The TruePic VIII Image Processor uses a dual quad core system with four CPU cores and four image processing cores that achieve image processing speeds approximately 3.5 times faster than the TruePic VII Processor.

***

Now, if Truepic 9 was indeed a brand new design.... then why is there still one UHS1 and one UHS2 memory card drive? Is this not something you would want to change if designing a new board from scratch in 2019? Could it be it is essentially the same Truepic 8 board , but just with a faster processor and/or better cooling?


this is the Truepic 8 board from the EM1.2, released in December 2016 (taken from Robin Wong's site). No pics yet of the Truepic 9 to compare it with.

The picture above seems to be the board from the EM1x (2x TruePic VIII)

Out of interest I was also researching for a while on the TruePic IX, and this time Olympus is very rare on information.

My take so far is:

here (in German) an Olympus Rep on the CPU:

What he says on performance differences:

TruePic8 vs. TruePic9:
"Unfortunately, exact figures are not yet available"

TruePic 9 vs. 2x TruePic8:
2x TruePic8 is faster than 1x TruePic9

He also mentions in the video, that all this AI stuff is only available on the EM1x because the 2x TruePic8 power is needed.

Last time when the TruePic8 was announced, Olympus was very offensive with the information on CPU (3,5x faster than TruePic7, a dual-quad-core CPU).
Now, with the EM1.3 (that does not have many HW changes over the EM1.2) they don't promote TruePic9 being 2x Faster than TruePic8? They just leave the job to promote (unofficial) details to the youtubers (more like rumors).
And when they are asked directly (see youtube video above), they say: we don't know = we won't tell you.

We still only have one UHS-II and one UHS-I (pretty sure the CPU controller is the limit here). On the EM1x we have two TruePic8 and therefore two UHS-II
Seems Olympus mentioned that they needed 5mm more space for UHS-II (but not sure when e.g. checking the XT3 layout). Maybe some more lanes needed on the Mainboard from controller to SD slot?

Also the video specs did not change at all over the EM1.2 -> same codecs, same bitrates, no 4K60p -> limit of the CPU?

Because all of this (and there is no official information on CPU Performance from Olympus) my guess is that the TruePic9 is just a slightly improved version of TruePic8 (maybe just running at 5% higher clockspeed).

On the getolympus site:
https://www.getolympus.com/us/en/digitalcameras/omd/om-d-e-m1-mark-iii.html
You see as key specs:
Processor: TruePic™ IX Quad Core Processors

When you expand the "OM-D E-M1 Mark III at a Glance" you will see:
Dual TruePic™ IX Processors

-> same dual-quad core layout like TruePic VIII?

On mirrorlesscomparisions we have part of the TruePic IX
https://mirrorlesscomparison.com/preview/olympus-omd-em1-iii-vs-em1x/

TruePic IX

And from here:
https://www.henrys.com/108026-OLYMPUS-OM-D-E-M1-MK-III-BODY-BLACK-V207100BU000.aspx

TruePic IX

From Olympus the TruePic VIII

TruePic VII

But only because the chip sizes look the same, does not mean they have the same number of cores etc...
Also we don't know what those three "boxes" are, maybe something like that:
1x quadcore CPU
1x quadcore Image Processing
1x controller

 

[3dwag]

Given how close the release dates are you’d think they could have put the newer processor in the 1X by waiting a few months.

They would have had to wait one more year to get the new IX processor into the EM1X.

Probably not. I suspect that the chip would have been well developed by the time the 1X was getting ready. I doubt they went from zero chip to full production of the final camera in a year.

Probably could have done it with a short delay - but imagine what they could have done with a camera with two of the new chips in..!

They probably started working on the EM1X product development based on 2x TruePic VIII processor architecture at least one year (probably more) before the EM1X was released. There would also be significant costs a year earlier for the development, tooling, and contractual obligations of a new processor, plus a good chance that the same processor we see now as the IX would cost more per camera a year ago than it does today.

I do know something about electronics and high technology product R&D/ design and have been on the cutting edge of semiconductor manufacturing for decades. Granted, this ain’t your mother’s 5nm iPhone A13 chip with billions of transistors and billions of $s in contracts, but I also have experience on the other end of the spectrum and most everything in between.

If only we could be flies on the wall at Olympus, then we might have a better idea of some of these details.

 

[Guy Parsons]

About halfway down https://olympus.com.au/product/dslr/em1mk3/feature.html is the pic of TruePic IX, it doesn't tell us much.

 

[3dwag]

from wikipedia:

***

The TruePic III+ is an improvement of the previous engine use in E450 DSLR, E620 and E30 (if not wrong, but use in E450 is confirmed).

The TruePic V engine is used in the Olympus Pen E-P1, E-P2, E-PL1 and XZ-1.[2] Advantages include faster processing time and nicer colour.

The TruePic V+ engine is used in the Olympus E-5.[3]

The TruePic VI engine is used in the Olympus Pen E-P3, E-PL3, E-PM1, TG-1, XZ-2, OM-D E-M5 and E-PL5.

The TruePic VII engine is used in the Olympus Pen E-PL7, E-PL8, OM-D E-M1, OM-D E-M10, OM-D E-M10 Mark II, OM-D E-M5 Mark II, PEN-F, Stylus SH-2, and Air A01.

The TruePic VIII engine is used in the Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II, E-M10 Mark III, Pen E-PL9 and E-M1X. The TruePic VIII Image Processor uses a dual quad core system with four CPU cores and four image processing cores that achieve image processing speeds approximately 3.5 times faster than the TruePic VII Processor.

***

Now, if Truepic 9 was indeed a brand new design.... then why is there still one UHS1 and one UHS2 memory card drive? Is this not something you would want to change if designing a new board from scratch in 2019? Could it be it is essentially the same Truepic 8 board , but just with a faster processor and/or better cooling?


this is the Truepic 8 board from the EM1.2, released in December 2016 (taken from Robin Wong's site). No pics yet of the Truepic 9 to compare it with.

The picture above seems to be the board from the EM1x (2x TruePic VIII)

Out of interest I was also researching for a while on the TruePic IX, and this time Olympus is very rare on information.

My take so far is:

here (in German) an Olympus Rep on the CPU:

What he says on performance differences:

TruePic8 vs. TruePic9:
"Unfortunately, exact figures are not yet available"

TruePic 9 vs. 2x TruePic8:
2x TruePic8 is faster than 1x TruePic9

He also mentions in the video, that all this AI stuff is only available on the EM1x because the 2x TruePic8 power is needed.

Last time when the TruePic8 was announced, Olympus was very offensive with the information on CPU (3,5x faster than TruePic7, a dual-quad-core CPU).
Now, with the EM1.3 (that does not have many HW changes over the EM1.2) they don't promote TruePic9 being 2x Faster than TruePic8? They just leave the job to promote (unofficial) details to the youtubers (more like rumors).
And when they are asked directly (see youtube video above), they say: we don't know = we won't tell you.

We still only have one UHS-II and one UHS-I (pretty sure the CPU controller is the limit here). On the EM1x we have two TruePic8 and therefore two UHS-II

I seem to recall that when the EM1X was released someone from Olympus stated that they needed two controllers and data buses to stream simultaneously at full UHS-II speed to two cards, whereas one controller/bus could do simultaneously for one UHS-II card plus one USH-1 card, but that’s an area I don’t know much about.

Seems Olympus mentioned that they needed 5mm more space for UHS-II (but not sure when e.g. checking the XT3 layout). Maybe some more lanes needed on the Mainboard from controller to SD slot?

Also the video specs did not change at all over the EM1.2 -> same codecs, same bitrates, no 4K60p -> limit of the CPU?

Because all of this (and there is no official information on CPU Performance from Olympus) my guess is that the TruePic9 is just a slightly improved version of TruePic8 (maybe just running at 5% higher clockspeed).

On the getolympus site:
https://www.getolympus.com/us/en/digitalcameras/omd/om-d-e-m1-mark-iii.html
You see as key specs:
Processor: TruePic™ IX Quad Core Processors

When you expand the "OM-D E-M1 Mark III at a Glance" you will see:
Dual TruePic™ IX Processors

-> same dual-quad core layout like TruePic VIII?

On mirrorlesscomparisions we have part of the TruePic IX
https://mirrorlesscomparison.com/preview/olympus-omd-em1-iii-vs-em1x/

TruePic IX

And from here:
https://www.henrys.com/108026-OLYMPUS-OM-D-E-M1-MK-III-BODY-BLACK-V207100BU000.aspx

TruePic IX

From Olympus the TruePic VIII

TruePic VII

But only because the chip sizes look the same, does not mean they have the same number of cores etc...

And we have no idea about which device node the transistors on the processor chips might be, which affect the number of transistors/ processor architecture, switching speed, net processor performance, and power consumption.

These processor chips could be many generations less sophisticated than the latest high end smartphone chips, but on the other hand the new IX device technology could easily be a few generations more sophisticated and nearly twice as powerful as the old VIII processor.

Also we don't know what those three "boxes" are, maybe something like that:
1x quadcore CPU
1x quadcore Image Processing
1x controller

Too bad they don’t sell these by the gazillions so that a group like iFixit would be interested to x-ray and dissect some of these cameras to see what’s really inside!

--
-Dennis W.
Austin, Texas
¯\_|’_’|_/¯

http://www.pbase.com/3dwag/image/97156660.jpg

 

[abgestumpft]

I seem to recall that when the EM1X was released someone from Olympus stated that they needed two controllers and data buses to stream simultaneously at full UHS-II speed to two cards, whereas one controller/bus could do simultaneously for one UHS-II card plus one USH-1 card, but that’s an area I don’t know much about.

Buf for a 2020 Flagship model they should have included Dual-UHS II slots. Older (and cheaper) models like the Fuji X-T3 and Panasonic G9 & GH5 have it.

 

[cba_melbourne]

I seem to recall that when the EM1X was released someone from Olympus stated that they needed two controllers and data buses to stream simultaneously at full UHS-II speed to two cards, whereas one controller/bus could do simultaneously for one UHS-II card plus one USH-1 card, but that’s an area I don’t know much about.

Buf for a 2020 Flagship model they should have included Dual-UHS II slots. Older (and cheaper) models like the Fuji X-T3 and Panasonic G9 & GH5 have it.

The Truepic 9 is not the new generation engine they are designing. It's most likely a Truepic 8, with higher clock speed and improved faster firmware algorithms. It does not really matter - if it delivers the performance boost required it's perfectly fit for purpose. The Truepic 8 is not old, it came out with the EM1.2 only 3 years ago. You can't have a new engine every 9 months like with phones, nor is it required. A new name will have to do

The new engine will probably come out in a couple years, let's call it Truepic 10. They will do some marketing fuzz about it, explain what is all new and better, how much faster etc etc, and be proud to show pictures of it. The Truepic 9, it seems they prefer we do not talk too much about it.

 

[pannumon]

Given how close the release dates are you’d think they could have put the newer processor in the 1X by waiting a few months.

They did, and the camera is called E-M1 mk III. I believe the new processor (Truepic IX) is based on more advanced fabrication technique (X nm), and produces much less heat (compared to dual Truepix IIX). This means they are not anymore forced to use that large heat sink (AKA integrated battery grip).

I strongly believe that if they have had Truepix IX early enough, they would have released E-M1 mk III straight away, and we would not have even heard of E-M1X. The sad thing is that from this perspective, E-M1X really feels like a dinosaur already now (but I know there are happy E-M1X users, which makes me less sad).

OTOH, it is possible that we will see E-M1X mark II with dual Truepic IX processors in the near future...

 

[pannumon]

The Truepic 9 is not the new generation engine they are designing. It's most likely a Truepic 8, with higher clock speed and improved faster firmware algorithms. It does not really matter - if it delivers the performance boost required it's perfectly fit for purpose. The Truepic 8 is not old, it came out with the EM1.2 only 3 years ago. You can't have a new engine every 9 months like with phones, nor is it required. A new name will have to do

New fabrication processes mean a huge drop in power requirements (heat production) of the processors. New fabrication processes are introduced about every two years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_device_fabrication (see the table at right)

3 years old is old. See my other post (https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63646788 ) about what I think this means considering E-M1 mk III and E-M1X.