Packshot photography / hard light setup

[Adrien_mrsd]

Hi all,

I'm very new to studio photography (my thing is icy / cold landscape photography ).

I shot a few packshots for a cosmetic brand I'm working with, easy ones with continuous and soft lighting, but this client is now asking me to shot other products with a much harder light, and minimalistic shadows, like these few examples :



I read a lot on the internet and the forum about strobes and speedlights recently, but this shooting was unexpected and should take place in a few days, and I'm having difficulties figuring out which simple light setup would do the trick.

Here is the kind of products (oral complements) I will shoot :



The point is to get some nice reflections of the juices. + I will also shoot their box.

I understand I will need a quite strong yet small light source (so I guess I can exclude these led panels that we can find on Amazon, from Neewer, for instance), not diffused, not too close to the product to get these precise shadows. I was investigating on powerful continuous light (those very powerful led lights) but I can't find much information about them.

Was thinking about buying one AD200 pro that seems to be a no brainer (will be also useful for my outdoor use), but I'm not sure about which modifier to use (if any)...

What do you think about that choice ? Which set up / modifier would you recommend ? Is a one light set up conceivable for such a result ?

Sorry for those newbie questions... I wanted to go seriously into packshot photography and was ready to take as much time as needed but then this last minute request arrived (I told the client I could not guarantee anything on this ).

Thank you so much for your help !!

Adrien

 

[elliotn]

You can do what you want with a cheap $50 speedlight.

 

[ronscuba]

You can do what you want with a cheap $50 speedlight.

Doing all those shots with 1 speedlight ? How ?

There is a lot going on in those shots. I think you will need a soft modifier, some reflectors and flags at least.

--
https://www.instagram.com/rchau.photo

 

[elliotn]

You can do what you want with a cheap $50 speedlight.

Doing all those shots with 1 speedlight ? How ?

There is a lot going on in those shots. I think you will need a soft modifier, some reflectors and flags at least.

Yeah, one bare speedlight and some sheets of white card for fill.

You see more than one light source?

 

[robertfel]

Art directors have been asking for hard lighting the last couple of years. I've been asked to shoot at high noon and fill in the shadow side with a reflector.

You can probably get away with an AD200, but why? You'll be in a studio with power, right? Even if you can use it with your other photography genres, I think you should get a plug-in stronger light. The extra power will help with DoF on macro shots and group shots where items are stacked in rows. You'll do fewer focus stacks.

I have Aputure 120D IIs for video shoots, they are no where near the power of a decent strobe. But I could definitely shoot photos with them if needed, I have when the client asked for a stop motion scene for a video. But I'd much rather have strong strobes.

Try a diffusion panel in front the strobe. Moving either the panel and/or strobe will help soften/harden the light, it's what I've been doing lately when in a big studio.

 

[ronscuba]

You can do what you want with a cheap $50 speedlight.

Doing all those shots with 1 speedlight ? How ?

There is a lot going on in those shots. I think you will need a soft modifier, some reflectors and flags at least.

Yeah, one bare speedlight and some sheets of white card for fill.

You see more than one light source?

Getting the shadows and evenly fill the different areas is tricky.

I am not experienced enough w/ product photography to see how to do this, especially with 1 bare speedlight and some fill cards. IDK, lighting looks softer than a bare speedlight to me.

The shadows and different amount of fill on the rocks, the boxes, the background, the shadows on the background, the copper highlight on the box sitting on the table, etc..

Would love to see the setup.

--
https://www.instagram.com/rchau.photo

 

[Adrien_mrsd]

Art directors have been asking for hard lighting the last couple of years. I've been asked to shoot at high noon and fill in the shadow side with a reflector.

You can probably get away with an AD200, but why? You'll be in a studio with power, right? Even if you can use it with your other photography genres, I think you should get a plug-in stronger light. The extra power will help with DoF on macro shots and group shots where items are stacked in rows. You'll do fewer focus stacks.

I have Aputure 120D IIs for video shoots, they are no where near the power of a decent strobe. But I could definitely shoot photos with them if needed, I have when the client asked for a stop motion scene for a video. But I'd much rather have strong strobes.

Try a diffusion panel in front the strobe. Moving either the panel and/or strobe will help soften/harden the light, it's what I've been doing lately when in a big studio.

Thanks all for your input, that’s really appreciated !

Indeed Robert, hard light is becoming more and more popular ; i could notice that working for cosmetic brands for the last 6 years in an advertising agency (on the client side).

You’re talking about a « plug-in stronger light » (I guess you mean continuous light?); do you have any affordable (200-400usd) reference in mind ?

By the way, for now if I manage to shoot just the ampoules with nice reflections and a few packshot compositions (primary packaging), that will be great. The « rocks & stuff » still life will wait a bit

Thanks so much !

 

[robertfel]

You’re talking about a « plug-in stronger light » (I guess you mean continuous light?); do you have any affordable (200-400usd) reference in mind ?

Not continuous, just an AC-powered strobe rather than a battery powered strobe.

Something like this is powerful and inexpensive: https://www.adorama.com/fplfs400b.html

 

[Adrien_mrsd]

You’re talking about a « plug-in stronger light » (I guess you mean continuous light?); do you have any affordable (200-400usd) reference in mind ?

Not continuous, just an AC-powered strobe rather than a battery powered strobe.

Something like this is powerful and inexpensive: https://www.adorama.com/fplfs400b.html

Thanks ! Since I’ll have to shop on amazon to receive it quickly and do some trials, I guess this Godox is a similar product :

Godox SK400II Compact 400Ws Studio Flash Strobe Light Built-in 2.4G Système X sans fil GN65 5600K avec 150W Lampe de modélisation pour commerce électronique Portrait Photographie https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B0755926ZG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_c37eEbRQBNN1M

I thought shadows needed a direct light with no diffusion panels to stay sharp but I guess I still have a lot to learn... I’ll give it a go !


Thanks again for your help !

 

[elliotn]

For the lighting you're trying to achieve, I would choose speedlights over studio strobes, as they provide a smaller, harder light source.

If you opt for studio strobes, consider adding a fresnel attachment to get harder shadows.

 

[Rico Tudor]

What do you think about that choice ? Which set up / modifier would you recommend ? Is a one light set up conceivable for such a result ?

One light is fine, and a Speedlight serves. The challenge is modifying your key, balancing the fill, and generating the desired background gradient (if any). This is vanilla tabletop but not for beginners. The task becomes much more difficult when shiny objects are present and speculars must be wrapped around their contours.

I use 2'x3' panels on this scale and have a wide assortment of materials. Result of one Speedlight through Rosco Rolux (full diffusion pastic sheet), foamcore bounce, foamcore shooting surface:

Lighting is directional, fill is moderate, but shadow edges are relatively indistinct. To get hard edges (even harder than the sun) one needs a projector but a Speedlight is pretty hard by a certain distance so I then used a 2'x3' silk for this result:

A silk does not diffuse but, rather, directly increases the frontal fill. The additional stray light bounces off the foamcore for generous fill and a less punchy presentation. Most of the specular activity involves the plastic packaging and the silk. The background gradient is 100% natural. Setup for the above:

--
Canon, Nikon, Contax RTS, Leica M, Sony, Profoto

 

[cdembrey]

Watch Juergen Teller shot the product (perfume bottle), with ON-Camera Flash—nothing else. The continuous light is ONLY for the video, it does nothing for the photo shoot. Below is the result.

Retouched photo. After a lot of work by the retoucher.

Advertising is a team effort. The retoucher is as important as the photographer—may more so. Besides the bottle being heavily retouched, it is also cut-out (clipping path). BTW that's how you get clean-white-backgrounds.

Your client has no idea how much work that went into the ad he wants copied.

You need to hook-up with a new, but talented, Photoshop artist if you want to do this kind of work.

Sorry to say: There is no such thing as a Magic Bullet that can be purchased from your favoite on-line retailer.


There is a difference between lighting and illumination.

 

[cdembrey]

Seeing the set-up would do nothing to educate you.

 

[cdembrey]

For the lighting you're trying to achieve, I would choose speedlights over studio strobes, as they provide a smaller, harder light source.

If you opt for studio strobes, consider adding a fresnel attachment to get harder shadows.

Either that, or move them waaaay back, and crank-up the power a lot (remember inverse square) ;-) Naw, just go with the speedlight.

 

[robertfel]

I guess I still have a lot to learn... I’ll give it a go !

I highly recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Light-Science-Magic-Introduction-Photographic/dp/0415719402/

 

[Sailor Blue]

You are simply not prepared to provide what the marketing department is asking for.

My advice is turn down this commission and any more like it until you learn how to do what they want. Start by studying this book. It will become your bible.

Amazon.com - Light Science & Magic: An Introduction to Photographic Lighting: 5th Edition - Fil Hunter, Steven Biver, Paul Fuqua

Hard light with long reflections on the subject and a seamless white background is HARD, HARD, HARD to do.

Hard lighting means small distant light sources. Long highlights mean soft light sources the proper size and distance from the subject.

I would say that first you need a light table, and most importantly you need to know how to use it.

Set Shop Tutorials: "Learn How To Build A Light Table" Featuring Steve Sint - YouTube

You don't simply blast a couple of lights at a subject on a light table and expect seamless white background images.

You never separately light the floor at all, just the subject and the background. Lighting the background from behind works best.

To get seamless white on a light table you first light the subject properly. You then light background to overexpose by about 1/3 stop at the subject exposure and adjust the camera position so the pure white background reflects off the floor. This will give you a seamless white floor with a reflection of the subject in front of the subject. You can remove the reflection in post if you have the experience for that.

If you don't want a reflection then you have to suspend the subject in mid-air and shoot directly into the barely overexposed background. Fishing line is a good way to do this, and fairly easy to remove in post.

If you absolutely must take this commission then make sure that they understand you will try but are likely going to deliver something that is not exactly what they want.

 

[elliotn]

I would say that first you need a light table, and most importantly you need to know how to use it.

Set Shop Tutorials: "Learn How To Build A Light Table" Featuring Steve Sint - YouTube

You don't simply blast a couple of lights at a subject on a light table and expect seamless white background images.

You never separately light the floor at all, just the subject and the background. Lighting the background from behind works best.

To get seamless white on a light table you first light the subject properly. You then light background to overexpose by about 1/3 stop at the subject exposure and adjust the camera position so the pure white background reflects off the floor. This will give you a seamless white floor with a reflection of the subject in front of the subject. You can remove the reflection in post if you have the experience for that.

If you don't want a reflection then you have to suspend the subject in mid-air and shoot directly into the barely overexposed background. Fishing line is a good way to do this, and fairly easy to remove in post.

This has no relevance to the original question.

 

[elliotn]

Watch Juergen Teller shot the product (perfume bottle), with ON-Camera Flash—nothing else. The continuous light is ONLY for the video, it does nothing for the photo shoot. Below is the result.

Retouched photo. After a lot of work by the retoucher.

Advertising is a team effort. The retoucher is as important as the photographer—may more so. Besides the bottle being heavily retouched, it is also cut-out (clipping path). BTW that's how you get clean-white-backgrounds.

Your client has no idea how much work that went into the ad he wants copied.

You need to hook-up with a new, but talented, Photoshop artist if you want to do this kind of work.

Sorry to say: There is no such thing as a Magic Bullet that can be purchased from your favoite on-line retailer.

There is a difference between lighting and illumination.

Interesting video, but that's not Juergen Teller's shot of the perfume bottle. You can see Juergen's efforts here:

https://www.myfacehunter.com/2011/06/dakota-fanning-is-face-of-marc-jacobs.html

The packshot you posted will have been shot by another photographer (or, more likely, it's a CGI render) — it certainly has not been shot with on-camera flash, and it has nothing to do with Juergen Teller.

 

[jlafferty]

cdembrey wrote

Besides the bottle being heavily retouched, it is also cut-out (clipping path). BTW that's how you get clean-white-backgrounds.

Agreed that retouching is necessary to this kind of work, and often pushes it to that last 10-20% needed, but you can get a fully clipped white background via lighting only. And in fact on many shoots it’s required that you get a fully clipped background because turnaround is such that the company wants to keep post work minimal. I’ve seen several shoots where a hard key light setup - if the subject proves tricky - will be shot as two frames, one for the overall look & feel, and one for the shadow projected on the background and knocking it out to clipped white.

 

[Adrien_mrsd]

Thanks all for your precious feedback !

I’m clearly not prepared enough for what the brand is asking now, and I’m aware of the difficulties. But I’m used to work with them on other projects and was very clear with them when they changed their brief for harsh lights (VS soft lights and more simple visuals like I did for them before), I did not promise anything, but I guess I have all the reasons to try. Best case scenario, I manage to get something interesting out of my trials (even if that may not reach the references result), worst case scenario I don’t succeed but I will surely have learned from it

I’ll sure take a look at the books and videos you mentioned.