Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

Started 1 week ago | Discussions
Hadrian R Regular Member • Posts: 136
Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

I posted this on Canon Rumors, but I'm hoping that the larger user base here might help me shed some light on an issue I am experiencing with my new R camera.

I noticed that I am getting these strange lines across the highlight areas of my images. It's always in the bright highlight areas, and usually where the highlights transition to a midtone.

They appear in unedited RAW images. I've not tried JPEG.

Has anyone else experienced this with their R cameras? I'm wondering if it's a sensor issue, or if it's a normal phenomenon caused by the electronic shutter.

These crops are from images shot at f/1.2 using the EF 85mm f/1.2L II and the new RF 85mm f/1.2L, and at shutter speeds ranging from 1/6400 to 1/8000. However, I have also noticed this same phenomenon to a much lesser degree at speeds ranging from 1/250 to 1/320.

I have Silent LV Shoot Mode 1 enabled, as this is on by default.

I've not found any photos so far where the issue presents itself while using a f/2.8 lens or slower.

My camera was also set to evaluative metering, servo focus, and on a single AF point. Additionally, the camera's firmware is the latest.

I still have a week to return the camera to the store for a replacement, so I want to make sure everything is operating as it should.

Thanks in advance for everyone's time and help.

 Hadrian R's gear list:Hadrian R's gear list
Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM Canon EF 100mm F2.8L Macro IS USM Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon Extender EF 2x III +2 more
shawnphoto Regular Member • Posts: 361
Noticed the same thing with an old FD 85 1.2L
1

Haven't noticed it with any other lens. I thought it might have something to do with EFCS but in these shots I had silent shooting disabled.

 shawnphoto's gear list:shawnphoto's gear list
Canon EOS R Canon EOS RP Canon RF 28-70mm F2L USM Canon RF 70-200mm F2.8L IS USM Canon RF 24-240mm F4-6.3
coso dp
coso dp Regular Member • Posts: 191
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

RP here, never seen anything like that.

Which RAW software do you use? DPP?

Can you see this artifact zooming on the picture in the camera display? I think you should take a look at JPEGS too

Kameratrollet Regular Member • Posts: 335
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?
OP Hadrian R Regular Member • Posts: 136
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

coso dp wrote:

RP here, never seen anything like that.

Which RAW software do you use? DPP?

Can you see this artifact zooming on the picture in the camera display? I think you should take a look at JPEGS too

Hi, thank you for your response.

I am using the latest version of Lightroom Classic CC. I can see the artifacting in the .CR3 files without having loaded the images into Lightroom -- just viewing them my computer monitor directly off the memory card.

I can see that the image is not quite right zoomed into 1:1. Zooming in further (which I wouldn't typically do) really shows what's going on.

I don't typically shoot in JPEG, but I can try tonight and see if the phenomenon showcases itself there too.

I think the main suspect is Silent LV Shoot Mode 1, which is enabled by default. When I have access to my camera again I will try to disable it and see whether it makes a difference. If it doesn't change anything I will be exchanging the camera.

 Hadrian R's gear list:Hadrian R's gear list
Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM Canon EF 100mm F2.8L Macro IS USM Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon Extender EF 2x III +2 more
OP Hadrian R Regular Member • Posts: 136
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

Here's a sample RAW that I have available right now.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lgd0ilhkbfj8dz3/AAAD_pA_Bo_diMb49p9v8Jioa?dl=0

You can see the horizontal lines if you zoom into the snow by my dog's feet, and you can see the lines in the bokeh balls in the background of the image.

 Hadrian R's gear list:Hadrian R's gear list
Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM Canon EF 100mm F2.8L Macro IS USM Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon Extender EF 2x III +2 more
OP Hadrian R Regular Member • Posts: 136
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

Kameratrollet wrote:

First thing I think of https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=22890.0

Interesting. I'll read through this. Thank you.

 Hadrian R's gear list:Hadrian R's gear list
Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM Canon EF 100mm F2.8L Macro IS USM Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon Extender EF 2x III +2 more
coso dp
coso dp Regular Member • Posts: 191
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

Hadrian R wrote:

Here's a sample RAW that I have available right now.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lgd0ilhkbfj8dz3/AAAD_pA_Bo_diMb49p9v8Jioa?dl=0

You can see the horizontal lines if you zoom into the snow by my dog's feet, and you can see the lines in the bokeh balls in the background of the image.

Thanks. Yeah I can see them. Seems like kind of a moire problem, like when there isn't the AA filter on the sensor. I don't know, I would shoot a mail to Canon and ask them, or get it exchanged. Maybe wait for any other R owner but I've never seen anything like that. Hope you get it sorted out

OP Hadrian R Regular Member • Posts: 136
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

coso dp wrote:

Hadrian R wrote:

Here's a sample RAW that I have available right now.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lgd0ilhkbfj8dz3/AAAD_pA_Bo_diMb49p9v8Jioa?dl=0

You can see the horizontal lines if you zoom into the snow by my dog's feet, and you can see the lines in the bokeh balls in the background of the image.

Thanks. Yeah I can see them. Seems like kind of a moire problem, like when there isn't the AA filter on the sensor. I don't know, I would shoot a mail to Canon and ask them, or get it exchanged. Maybe wait for any other R owner but I've never seen anything like that. Hope you get it sorted out

Thank you. We'll see what happens. Right now I am leaning towards just exchanging it for peace of mind.

 Hadrian R's gear list:Hadrian R's gear list
Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM Canon EF 100mm F2.8L Macro IS USM Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon Extender EF 2x III +2 more
NoTicket Forum Member • Posts: 89
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

Hadrian R wrote:

coso dp wrote:

Hadrian R wrote:

Here's a sample RAW that I have available right now.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lgd0ilhkbfj8dz3/AAAD_pA_Bo_diMb49p9v8Jioa?dl=0

You can see the horizontal lines if you zoom into the snow by my dog's feet, and you can see the lines in the bokeh balls in the background of the image.

Thanks. Yeah I can see them. Seems like kind of a moire problem, like when there isn't the AA filter on the sensor. I don't know, I would shoot a mail to Canon and ask them, or get it exchanged. Maybe wait for any other R owner but I've never seen anything like that. Hope you get it sorted out

Thank you. We'll see what happens. Right now I am leaning towards just exchanging it for peace of mind.

You should definitely do that. I have never seen anything like that.

GammyKnee Contributing Member • Posts: 905
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?
1

Hadrian R wrote:

Here's a sample RAW that I have available right now.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lgd0ilhkbfj8dz3/AAAD_pA_Bo_diMb49p9v8Jioa?dl=0

You can see the horizontal lines if you zoom into the snow by my dog's feet, and you can see the lines in the bokeh balls in the background of the image.

I opened the file in C1 (my go-to editor) and the lines just weren't there, however when I opened the file in DPP I could indeed see them. I then double-checked some of my recent EOS R files in DPP and did not find anything like the lines in your file.

One crazy thought I had - that is likely absolute nonsense - was that maybe it could be an artifact of the electronic first curtain combined with physical second curtain at what is a pretty high shutter speed (1/6400) ?? Shooting at a high shutter speed with silent LV mode 1 (the default BTW) and a wide aperture is known to cause bokeh issues on most (all?) mirrorless cameras.

Does the problem you're seeing still occur at much lower shutter speeds? Or if you're stopped down? And what about if you disable Silent LV shutter, forcing the camera to use the physical shutter for the entire exposure? Like I said, this is probably a silly suggestion but it's easy enough to check out.

Edit#1: sorry, I've just read your initial post properly and you've already answered some of my questions. Still, I would try switching to all mechanical shutter to see if that banishes the problem at f/1.2?

Edit#2: I just checked thru some images I took at 1/8000, f/1.8 with LV mode 1 in DPP, and found NO lines. Unfortunately f/1.8 is as fast I can go so it's not a direct comparison, but I'm leaning towards there being something amiss with your R.

 GammyKnee's gear list:GammyKnee's gear list
Canon 6D Mark II Canon EOS R Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM Canon EF 100mm f/2.0 USM Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM +4 more
TN Args
TN Args Veteran Member • Posts: 8,570
Try DPP
2

Open the same images in Canon's latest DPP, just to be sure it isn't Lightroom.

 TN Args's gear list:TN Args's gear list
Sigma dp0 Quattro Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Olympus E-M5 II Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm F4.0-5.6 Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH +7 more
Canochrome Regular Member • Posts: 266
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?
1

Hadrian R wrote:

Thank you. We'll see what happens. Right now I am leaning towards just exchanging it for peace of mind.

I would exchange it, with a good description of the issue. If you bought it from one of the big camera stores, you can set up the exchange on line.

The only time I've seen an odd pattern similar to that is when photographing my computer screen with my phone, where the timing of the shutter clashes with the scan of the LCD screen that I'm photographing.

-- hide signature --

Tom

 Canochrome's gear list:Canochrome's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Canon EOS R Canon EOS RP Canon EOS M6 II Canon EF 15mm f/2.8 Fisheye +20 more
Canochrome Regular Member • Posts: 266
Re: Try DPP
1

TN Args wrote:

Open the same images in Canon's latest DPP, just to be sure it isn't Lightroom.

Good idea. Eliminate all the external variables.

-- hide signature --

Tom

 Canochrome's gear list:Canochrome's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Canon EOS R Canon EOS RP Canon EOS M6 II Canon EF 15mm f/2.8 Fisheye +20 more
shawnphoto Regular Member • Posts: 361
Re: Try DPP

TN Args wrote:

Open the same images in Canon's latest DPP, just to be sure it isn't Lightroom.

I would but it doesn’t run on my system... AMD 3900X

 shawnphoto's gear list:shawnphoto's gear list
Canon EOS R Canon EOS RP Canon RF 28-70mm F2L USM Canon RF 70-200mm F2.8L IS USM Canon RF 24-240mm F4-6.3
OP Hadrian R Regular Member • Posts: 136
Re: Try DPP
1

Thank you everyone for your responses.

Having just returned home I've done a few quick test runs with electronic first curtain completely disabled -- i.e., Silent LV Shoot Mode 1 is turned off.

Unfortunately, I can report I am still seeing the lines. I took a few images of our Christmas tree and I can clearly see the lines where the highlights meet the midtones.

I'm 99% certain this is a sensor issue. I'll be calling The Camera Store in Calgary tomorrow to have it switched out. Having just checked their website I see they are out of stock...so it will be a wait to get a replacement unit. Oh well...

Just to double check everything I'm following the suggestions in this thread and downloading the latest DPP. I suspect I will see the same thing, and which case it will be confirmation that the camera is going back.

 Hadrian R's gear list:Hadrian R's gear list
Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM Canon EF 100mm F2.8L Macro IS USM Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon Extender EF 2x III +2 more
ZX11
ZX11 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,943
Disregard (NT)
-- hide signature --

"Very funny, Scotty! Now beam me down my clothes."
"He's dead, Jim! You grab his tri-corder. I'll get his wallet."

 ZX11's gear list:ZX11's gear list
Canon EOS 700D Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS STM
OP Hadrian R Regular Member • Posts: 136
Re: Low quality photos instead of high quality

ZX11 wrote:

Not sure why the dogs eye is made up of blocks. Is there a quality setting that can be changed to get all the resolution from the sensor instead of the low quality pixelated versions. Tons of those likely fit on a card.

I see the pixel by pixel hight to width says high resolution for the photo. But, it looks like a high resolution scan of my low resolution 1999-2000 era Canon Elph file outputs.

Cheap 50mm f/1.4 lens on the R out of camera JPEG:

Are you speaking about the cropped screen grabs I posted initially in the thread? I was simply posting those for illustrative purposes -- to showcase the problem.

You can click on my Dropbox link above if you want a full RAW image out of my camera where the problem is really prevalent.

I am not seeing any problems with the image you've posted. Looks like a beautiful dog, tho!

 Hadrian R's gear list:Hadrian R's gear list
Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM Canon EF 100mm F2.8L Macro IS USM Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon Extender EF 2x III +2 more
OP Hadrian R Regular Member • Posts: 136
Re: Disregard (NT)

I have officially tried loading images into DPP, Photoshop 2020, Lightroom Classic CC, Luminar 4, and Mac OS 10.15's Finder -- all of the programs showcase the problem with the exception of Luminar 4, which seems to be substantially blurring the photos by default.

The problem shows everywhere else, including Canon's own DPP software.

 Hadrian R's gear list:Hadrian R's gear list
Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM Canon EF 100mm F2.8L Macro IS USM Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon Extender EF 2x III +2 more
ZX11
ZX11 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,943
Re: Low quality photos instead of high quality

Hadrian R wrote:

Are you speaking about the cropped screen grabs I posted initially in the thread? I was simply posting those for illustrative purposes -- to showcase the problem.

You can click on my Dropbox link above if you want a full RAW image out of my camera where the problem is really prevalent.

I am not seeing any problems with the image you've posted. Looks like a beautiful dog, tho!

Yeah, I realized too late to withdraw the post that the images were heavily cropped.  I thought the dog head was a full shot of just him.  I edited the post to (nt).

-- hide signature --

"Very funny, Scotty! Now beam me down my clothes."
"He's dead, Jim! You grab his tri-corder. I'll get his wallet."

 ZX11's gear list:ZX11's gear list
Canon EOS 700D Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS STM
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads